Realtime, Dev Tooling, AWS Pain, and Sleep Resets

Adam: Oh, I gotta share my screen.

It's just my face.

Hang on.

Dax: Man.

It is crazy how far we can fall.

How far we can fall.


Adam: This is the best
stream I've ever done.

This hurts my soul Dax.

Dax: Your title on Twitch is building
a Slack app with AWS Bedrock.

That was so long ago.

Adam: Okay.

How do I change the title?

Let's change the title.

Dax: Welcome to the podcast.

Adam: I, uh, I guess we don't
really have like a structure to,

to shift into, do we, I have things
I wanna talk to you about today.

Dax: Fire it off.

Adam: So sleep.

Have we talked about sleep?

I'm in the middle of like a sleep rutt.

Dax: Hmm.

Adam: uh, do you ever, uh,
you're in your thirties, right?

At least.

I know I'm older than you, but Okay.

I'm not that much older.

I am that much older trash.

It's up.

Uh, so, I have the this has
happened a couple times before

and I can't remember how long it
lasted, but I'm in like a week.

Uh, it's been about a week of this where
I get up in the middle of the night.

It's like the middle of my
sleep, my total sleep window.

It's like two o'clock right now.

Two to three.

I basically cannot sleep from
the hours of two to three.

Every night I wake up and I'm
just stuck awake for like an hour.

Sometimes I take some
melatonin to fall back asleep.

Sometimes I just wait long enough
and I eventually fall back asleep.

But it's been a week now
of this and I can remember.

This happening before, and Casey's
saying it was like cortisol levels,

like your stress during the day
can lead to this where you can't

sleep in the middle of the night.

It's like a thing.

I don't remember the name for
it, but have you ever had this?

Dax: Okay, so this is really crazy
because I was literally talking to Liz

an hour ago and she's, for the past
week, has had basically the same thing

where she's randomly out of nowhere,
has been getting terrible sleep and

Adam: Is she stressed?

Dax: I don't know.

I don't think so.

I think, I can't think of anything
specifically that changed.

and yeah, she says she
keeps waking up for her.

It's not that time for her.

It's like around like four or five.

Adam: But it's the same time every night.

Dax: Yeah.

And then she'll start, she'll
feel terrible when she wakes up.

Also, like she does not feel good.

Adam: Yeah.



Dax: on?

Is it

Adam: I don't know.

It must be the aliens.

What was the alien thing in Miami?

I did not get filled in

Dax: Oh, there were aliens here.

There were giant 30 foot tall aliens.

Adam: And it's just as normal as
like those recordings that came out

and they're like, there's aliens.

It's, it's fine.

Dax: it's Miami.

You do, you know,

Adam: aliens in Miami,
and it's just a thing.

Now we just all accept that

Dax: It's so funny.

I can't believe that blew up as big
as it did because it's literally

like three frames of a video
where it kind of looks like it.

It's from so far away.

It's like it's someone
filming from the top.

Like they're in an apartment
and like a high rise.

Down to the ground and it's a
night and it's like kind of like

foggy and like w with there's some
light cutting through the fog.


And like for like three frames in the
clip, it looks like there's like a kind of

an alien that like walks like a giant one

Adam: Yeah.

And that's what this all

Dax: and that was it.

And that everyone, everyone
started messaging me being

like, are there aliens there?

Like, what's going on?

Adam: huh?

Dax: There was also like
a thousand cop cars.

It was like an insane number of cop
cars on the road, but it was just a

bunch of kids like fighting in the mall.

Adam: Oh, that's what it was.

The police, that's the story,
is that there were just kids

Dax: That's the story.

That's the official story.


It was just kids fighting in the
mall and then people were like

running away and the cop showed up.

Adam: And somebody got a, a
short video clip that looked

like an alien, and here we are

Dax: It's a long video clip and
there's, you watch the whole thing

for the payoff of three frames where
it kind of looks like an alien.


Adam: So it sounds less exciting
than maybe I thought it would be

Dax: Yeah.

But anyway, going back to your sleep.

So I personally am the annoying person
that has never had sleep issues.

Like, I fall asleep
within 10 minutes and I,

Adam: I fall asleep fast.

I've always done that.

Doesn't matter what happened that day.

I didn't have to work out.

I didn't have to do anything.

I can lay down and go to sleep when I

Dax: Nice.


And then I'm just like
completely blacked out.

Zero consciousness, no
dreams until, until I

Adam: Well, so you wake, you go to
sleep and the next thing you know

you're waking up in the morning
with no wake-ups in between.

Dax: Yep.


Adam: Are you

Dax: remember them.

I might wake up 'cause, because
Liz sometimes says like, we

have interactions at night and I
just don't remember them at all.

But yeah, I have like no
recollection of waking up.

Adam: So I, I was telling Casey
yesterday, I don't remember the last

time that I went to sleep at night, even
before this, like this is an extreme

issue where I'm literally up for like
an hour in the middle of the night.

But even before that, I get
up every night at some point.

Like I'm conscious, like I don't just
kind of come to, I like mostly 'cause

I have to pee if I'm being honest.

We really, I gotta

Dax: what, what,

Adam: there's something, I dunno,

Dax: smallest bladder?

Adam: issue maybe.

I don't know.

I feel like there's something
that it would explain it.

It's gonna be really sad when
I die of like prostate cancer.

And you guys all listen
to these episodes fondly.

Dax: Oh no, that one's
like easy to manage.

Like just take your prostate out

Adam: Oh, yeah.


Dax: and then you get a
little, a little penis

Adam: take it, take it out yourself.

Like just go ahead and just make
an, an incision there and just

pop the prostate out real quick.

Dax: I am just saying of
the spectrum of cancers.

I think that one is not bad.

Adam: uh, uh, in terms of cancer,
it's the least horrible cancer.

Got it.


Dax: I'm just trying
to stay positive, Adam.

Adam: Yeah, no.


So I always at least have to pee,
but even aside from peeing, I

feel like I'm up a couple times.

I don't remember, literally in my
adult life, I don't remember the

last time I went to bed at night and
then woke up and it was morning, and

it was like I just slept all night.

I know I did it as a kid, like I
can remember growing up that was

just a thing I took for granted.

And at some point in
adulthood it just went away.

Never to come back.

Dax: That's really weird.

I've been like this since I was a baby.

Like, you know how everyone is like
they have a newborn and is like a

nightmare for several months, my
parents like, never had that with me.

I would just go to sleep and then I,
they would put me down and I would

just go to sleep and I wouldn't move

Adam: Your parents are the
people that I hate, like

Dax: Yeah.

Well, no.

My, my,

Adam: our baby just sleeps.

We don't know.

I'm like, I love you, I hate you.

Dax: got, they got karma.

The, my brother was like
a colic baby, and that was

Adam: Yeah.

It's usually how it works.

If you have more than one, one will
be way, way harder than the other.

That's what I've gathered from
like anecdotal survey of like

six families, mine included.

Dax: Well.

So what about sleeping?

So another place is like when you
like travel on planes, like do you,

are you able to sleep on planes or
is that not something that you do?

Adam: I don't sleep
well in cars or planes.

No, I just can't get comfortable.

Maybe it's my height, like
I've never been able to get my

Dax: Oh yeah.

Adam: even with like a pillow in a plane.

I just can't do it.

I've tried, 'cause I've had
some overnight flights and

Dax: So I have no problem
sleeping on a plane.

Like I've had situations where I've fallen
asleep before the plane took off and I

woke up 'cause I felt the plane land.


And it feels like time traveling or
it feels like teleportation, I guess.

But there is one weird thing with
me where I don't know what it is,

but you know how like when you fall
asleep on a plane or whatever, like

your head like like rolls around?

Adam: Sure it does.


I'm, I'm

Dax: if, if you've never experienced it.


But like.

Everyone experiences this, but
for me it is like 10 times crazy.

Like my head is like swinging around,
like knocking into the people next to me.


And it's people that have flowed with me,
I've probably like, smashed my head into,

into them when they're sitting next to me.

And it's, it's like always
a stranger, you know?

So I have to get one of those like
neck pillow things just so it, like,

Adam: Yeah.


Dax: constraints how much my neck moves.

'cause I'm like totally not in control.

Adam: I think I've gotten those, like,
I've gotten like three different ones

because I never actually take it with me.

Once I get one,

Dax: Yeah,

Adam: comes home and then
I'm not gonna like take it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I've bought like three of
'em at the airports in case he's

always like, we have two of these.

Why do you keep buying these?

And I don't even fall
asleep, so it's stupid.

Dax: So do you have an eight sleep?


Adam: I don't have an eight sleep.

I have a, uh, I'm gonna mess this up.

A ChiliPad.


I think the company is ChiliPad,
but it's called an Oler maybe.

And the app is called Sleep Me.

Can I just go on a little tiny rant?

It's very small about these smart product
companies and their naming of things.

I have blinds, they're called, I thought
they were called Tilt Blinds, but

they're made from a company, it used to
be my Smart Roller Blinds or something.

Or no Tilt shades.

They're roller shades.

They were my Smart Roller shades
and the app, there's two apps.

They didn't get really the old one.

There's still a My Smartt Roller
Shade app and a Tilt app, and there's

HomeBridge connectors for both of them.

But then the company is like a whole
different, it's like Smarter Home.

It's like, why can't they
just one name for the thing?

And all the products
I, it drives me crazy.

Dax: Think we have the same scale too.

'cause I started talking about this and
I have the same issue with the scale

where it's like a we thing scale, but

Adam: but it's like Nokia now.


Dax: And then I can

Adam: get it together.

Dax: the app and I know

Adam: The app is always
something totally different.

I have to open my Sleep Me app to
change my ER made by Chili Pad.

Just like I cannot remember those things.

And then the passwords, its a whole thing.

Do you use a password manager?

That's another conversation I wanna

Dax: I use Bit Warden.

Adam: Bit Warden.


Dax: But you're in the Apple world, so
I'm assuming you just iCloud everything.

Adam: You would think
that would be a good idea.

But I use the worst possible thing,
which is LastPass, which I get made

fun of every time I admit publicly.

Dax: I

Adam: once you have all your passwords,
well, it's had like a big breach.

I think

Dax: Oh,

Adam: did like the one thing you
can't do as a password manager

is like leak all the passwords.

But when you and your spouse Bose
use it on all your devices, you know

how hard it is to change a password

Dax: Yeah.

No, it is hard.

It is difficult.

So with your thing, have you tried
like cranking down the temperature

so it just like freezes you at night?

Adam: So this is what
Casey said to me yesterday.

She said, is your uler low enough?

I said, lemme check the Sleep Me app.

No, I didn't really say that.

I, I get so cold.

I don't know, like I feel like I've
been so cold at night and I thought

I ran hotter than, I mean, I'm a
big male and she's a small female.

I thought I ran hotter, but
she, I found out hers is like

10 degrees colder than mine.

Dax: Li Liz runs hotter than I do.

Like she usually wants
everything colder than I do.

Adam: So I, maybe I should turn mine
down 'cause I have it pretty high

compared to hers, but I feel like
I'm already cold and the fan's going

and I'm like a little old lady.

I've got my two blankets.

Dax: Well try going the other way.

Just like jack it up.

Make it hot

Adam: I'll go really hot.


Dax: gotta try stuff at this

Adam: try to just mix it up.

I might just need to sleep like
on a couch and just see how I do.

I might

Dax: Oh, may.

Oh, maybe your bed's too fancy.

Adam: maybe.

Yeah, we've done all
kinds of, oh man, our bed.

You're gonna make fun of me so
much for so many of these things.

So, the layers that our bed is, so we have
like a latex mattress, which is already

like five layers because you buy the
individual layers and you build up like a

firmness profile for your side of the bed.

So there's like five layers
that make up the mattress.

And then we have the uler, I
think directly on top of that.

And then we have a mattress pad.

Then we have sheets that are like
conductive, grounding sheets.

I dunno if they work, but I love the idea
that my sheets are plugged into the wall.

Like it's just awesome.

Dax: but like not, they're
plugged into the wall.

Like, what do you mean to the ground?

Like they're not like
plugged into a, like a

Adam: Not, yeah, not the
whole socket, just the ground.

Dax: Yeah.



Adam: what I'm talking about?


Wait, and Casey and I don't
sleep in the same sheets.

Is that weird or not in
the same like blanket.

She uses different blankets than me.

Is that

Dax: Wait, hang on.


Adam: It's like we're on the same bed.

It's a king-sized bed.

Dax: Okay?

Adam: California king, actually.

Dax: And you have separate blankets
so you can't physically touch.

Adam: I mean, we, we could, but,
but it's work, you know, like

there's, there's pillows in the way.

There's blankets.

We have like our own little
fort on each side of the bed.

Yeah, we use different blankets.

I don't know at what point I.

At what point we started, but it almost
feels like we sleep in different rooms.

'cause like different bedding entirely.

It's very hard to make the bed also.

Sorry, this is getting really weird.

I should probably stop.

I'm just gonna

Dax: I don't want to
comment on your marriage.

So like,

Adam: Yeah, let's not go there.

I don't know why.


Dax: not.

Adam: I'm like asking for

Dax: There's already been
rumors that Casey hates you, so

Adam: That was a big rumor.

I think you started that rumor though.

Dax: No, I think you said it.

Adam: What were we talking about?


Okay, so I'm gonna try
something different tonight.

I'm gonna try something

Dax: Maybe just, yeah, I think go on
the couch and like, just go primitive.

Sleep on the, sleep on the floor.

Sleep outside.

Adam: Maybe I'll just stay up all night.

Maybe I'll just like see if I can
get so tired that I sleep good the

next night and then I'll start a
trend of sleeping good or something.

My body will figure out how to do it.

We'll see.

Dax: Am I gonna get one of those videos
from you again where you like record

yourself at 3:00 AM You just look insane.

Adam: That video that you've only
seen no one will ever, ever see

Dax: Man, one day.

Adam: Unless I decide I'm leaving the
internet and then everyone will see it.

Dax: Once you die from
prostate cancer, I'll,

Adam: Oh my.

Dax: I'll post that
video as a final tribute.

Adam: It's funny.

Dax: Okay.

So your sleep is messed up,

Adam: It's messed up.


Dax: which means nothing
in your life can go well.

Adam: Yeah.

And I'm trying to sleep more, but I'm
like training with a personal trainer now.

I do two private lessons
with Jiujitsu every week.

Like I'm doing so much physical
activity, I'm doing the knees

over toes guys workouts.

Dax: Oh yeah.

Adam: 'cause my knees are both swollen.

I'm doing like cardio stuff.

Do you do four by fours
for vo two max training?

Like I'm doing all this stuff and I'm 37.

I'm not young anymore.

Dax, I'm not 31.

I need sleep.

I think like sleep is a big part
of being active and recovering.


Dax: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, do you have a whoop
or did you have, have you ever

Adam: Have an or an aura

Dax: Oh, yeah, similar.



No, that, that recovery stuff
is like extremely accurate even

if you're not a pro athlete.

Like when I was working out more
there were days where I would just

have terrible performance in the
gym and it always lined up with

Adam: Yeah.

The recovery score thing.


So the whoop does that too.

I love that.

I like, I wake up and it's like
when I feel like garbage, it's

like, oh, 78 on the recovery.

That makes sense.

And when I feel really good, it's
like I'm ready to do a workout today.

Something about that's motivating.

Dax: I've just been doing the
sandbag workout that I mentioned.

Adam: I got a sandbag.

Dax: I actually got the idea from you,
'cause you mentioned that a while ago.

And then I started looking into
it and I was like, all you need

is a sandbag and you can do all
this stuff in your front yard.

That's great.

And I canceled my gym membership.

Adam: Yeah, it's a totally
different kind of workout.

Like if it's it's good.

It's hard.

It's hard to hold a sandbag.

Dax: Yeah, I, I like that,
the lack of precision with it.

'cause I feel like those types
of workouts are very good.

Yeah, exactly.

Where you're like lifting over your
head and like one sideways too much.

And the other side it's
like not balanced perfectly.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Dax: And yeah, you can do so much with it.

So I've just been doing these
like daily workouts with them.

Adam: I got my sandbag.

I did some workouts, and then I
joined this gym where I'm do like

working with a personal trainer and
this entire gym, they've got like

everything you can imagine, no sandbags.

So I can't do any sandbags
with my personal trainer.

He looked at me funny when I
asked him if they had sandbags,

like, wow, we have sandbags.

Dax: I get that.

'cause if you have all the like, like
the specific equipment that's the same.

A sandbag that approximates all
that, it's like a versatile thing.

Adam: Yeah, I guess so.

Dax: Yeah, it's been great.

'cause now I just walk out, like I just
wait till it's sunny and I just walk out

and I do my workout and I can go back in.

It's like super efficient.

I can fit it in anywhere.

I was already only walking like
three minutes to the gym anyway.

But now it's, now it's
down to like 10 seconds.

Adam: I'm just so jealous that
you can go outside right now.

It's been so gross here.

Like cold, sleet, snow.

It's gonna be like minus 15, a

Dax: Minus 15.

Adam: Over the weekend.

Yeah, there's gonna be a night
that the low is minus 15.


Dax: What happens if you go outside?


Adam: I don't know.

I'm not going to.

Dax: My god.

Adam: it's too cold.

I'm going to Kansas City for a
tournament and it's even colder up there.

Like it's three hours north.

It's gonna be, it's gonna be brutal.

Dax: It dropped at 60 degrees
for a week and I got sick.

Adam: You suck.

I hate you doing sandbag
workouts in your front lawn.

We should talk about something
in, uh, there's some stuff

going on in tech layoffs.

How about the, there's been so

Dax: oh, man.

These layoffs again.

I can't

Adam: I thought the layoffs were done.

I thought the rates were going
down and life was good again.

We're gonna start seeing all the, like,
tiktoks from the project managers again.

Like I thought all that was coming
back and then suddenly Google

laid off like a ton of people.

Dax: Wait, did they, okay, so

Adam: Google?

It was like 30,000 or

Dax: no, no.

That was fake news.

It sounds like they are doing layoffs,
but that 30,000 number was like, was fake.


Just to recap though, the Twitch
thing is crazy because I feel like

they've had so many rounds of it and
it's like every X number of months,

you just have like a day where you're
stressed out and then maybe you survive.

But then like a bunch of people, you know,
it's just like, it's so brutal to have to

go through that over and over and over.

Adam: Could they not just tell
their employees about the layoffs

before they read it on Twitter?

Like, why can't they get this right?

I feel like it's just like, I don't
really have big opinions about layoffs

and about the, like, ethical, whatever,
implications, but just like sending

an email and saying, Hey, we're gonna,
whatever the, the PR thing is gonna say

whatever the thing that's gonna leak
and tell everybody there's layoffs.

Just say that in an email first.

So they don't learn about it
on Twitter because they just

learn about it on Twitter.



Dax: Yeah.

I mean, 'cause it leaked.


It's so crazy and everyone's just stressed
for a day and then, yeah, it just like, I.

Man, that's like such a motivation killer.

And I feel like even if you survive
all the rounds, you're like,

probably want to quit anyway.

Adam: Yeah.

I think one of our friends on
Twitter, I think you, well, I,

I would've met her at TwitchCon.

I don't know if you know
her works at Twitch.

Her entire team got let go.

Dax: I saw, I saw that tweet.


It's just her, but her whole team is let

Adam: Then what do you do?

You don't know.

Like, do I, like, where
am I going in the org?


That's a mess.

Dax: It's tough.


And I did, and I did see something
about the other, like Google and

a few other big companies today.

I saw people talking about people are
getting notified, they're laid off.

That 30,000 number was confusing
because they're restructuring an

org that has 30,000 people in it,
because the last 10 years of them

automating stuff with machine learning
and, uh, has, has made that like.

Adam: Yeah.

The headline made it like AI takes

Dax: It's not any of like the new
AI stuff, it's just stuff that

they've been doing for forever.

I think it's like they're like
recommending tweaks to ads

automatically or something.

So the whole like service part of like
servicing someone that's running ads

on Google, which is less important.

So they're like restructuring it's,
and I'm sure like they're gonna

let some people go as a result of
that, but it's not like they're

letting go of 30,000 people.

Adam: Right.


Dax: Yeah.

But I did see, like, I think I
saw today was there more Google

Huts, hundreds of jobs, yeah.



Adam: so what is your,

Dax: still going down.

Adam: like the current technology
landscape, like economy, all of it.

Like, are we on the way down?

Are we on the way up?

Where, where are we headed?

Dax: Yeah.

I think the thing is like, with the,
this type of thing, like there's

so many specifics that matter, like
one company doing layoffs versus

another company doing layoffs.

The fact that they're doing at the
same time is like a trend, but the

reasons are, like the background
behind is completely different.

With Google, I feel like their cuts are
like meaningful in that I think the CEO

has been a bad CEO and I think they've
like missed out on a ton of opportunities

and like they're like kind of having to
really like reckon with who they are and

what their future is, but their cuts,

I'm like, I don't know if
those jobs are coming back.

There's other companies like, I dunno,
like Amazon that does cuts and I

think that's just them like taking the
opportunity to like reset and I'm sure

they're gonna grow back up to that
size, you know, at, at some point.

I can't imagine that there's still like
a lot of layoffs that are incoming.

Adam: There's also not layoffs, but
all the exodus from AWS have you

Dax: The people leaving.

Yeah, I did.


Like it's another one today.

Adam: That's been framed that like
really the back to office thing was

to just, it was like a way of doing
layoffs without the negative publicity.

Like they knew people would leave.

Nobody wanted to come back
to the office and it worked.

And like very high profile people with
large social media followings have been

leaving and announcing that they left.

That's a whole nother thing.

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: There's some really great people
at AWS like people I've loved interacting

with that are seem like great people.

And then there's some weird stuff.

There's some weird stuff.

I've heard stories I've heard about
just like weird power dynamics within

AWS, and then this has kind of been
more of those cracks showing publicly.

Like it used to be that it felt
like there's this impenetrable wall.

They were all on the same page
and I don't know, morale was very

high at AWS and that's changed a
lot I feel like in the last year.

Dax: Yeah, I can see that.

Like I, even just in my time interacting
and using AWS I feel like it's just

gotten more and more, it's like just
become a much more political organization.

It feels like, it feels like there's
like a lot of complexity behind the

scenes, that are like not related
to the technology or the product.

Just like corporate complexity.

I can see that the return to
office thing is interesting.

I don't know, like, I don't fully
understand the strategy there.

Like, you wanna do layoffs?

Staying return to office is a good way.

Like it is like a
convenient way to like cut.

'cause people will self-select out, but
you have no control over who self-selects

Adam: Right.

Dax: Uh, and they're not stupid
enough to like not understand that.

I'm sure they understand that.

So to me that means like, it, they don't
care who leaves and maybe they really

feel like they just need like a full
reset and like, you know, new people

will come in that are great probably.

Yeah, I don't fully get it.

Like everyone tries to explain
the return to office thing in

such like, simplistic ways.

Like, oh, managers want to like,
feel powerful so they can like, see

people in the office or something.

I don't know if it's that simple
like I, I, but I just don't get it.

I haven't seen an adequate explanation.

Adam: Yeah, the article I saw, 'cause
I just, I read something yesterday

after I saw a couple of people
that left that I've surprised left.

That like they were trying to specifically
cut a lot of the like high earners and

that they thought those high earners would
be the most put off by like coming into

the office, which is interesting like

Dax: That kind of makes sense though
because the salaries you pay, like

having been at a company that did a
lot of hiring the salaries you end

up paying people are like so random.

Like it's completely based off of
like they got into the right time and

people at the company were stressed
in a certain way at the right time.

And like the market looked a certain way.

And then like if you like play, if you
like, do hiring for two years and look

back, like the pay scales are so random.

Like you'll have people that suck,
that are making a lot people that

are good, that aren't making as much.

And I can see how like at a company that's
been around for that long that, you know,

pays high salaries, it probably was like.

A complete mess in terms of,
and yeah, in terms of that, so

Adam: but Amazon specifically for a
long time was kind of like a low salary,

Dax: yeah.

But it was like high stock compensation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they did, I mean, even then
they upped their salary floor

during like the crazy covid times.

So I'm sure a lot of people got in during
then that they're like, eh, this isn't

really worth paying them that much.


Adam: I saw you, you tweeted something
the other day about about salaries.

It was on the other side of it, like
from an individual perspective, like

there's such a ceiling on what you
can make from a company on a salary

versus like consulting or whatever.

Dax: Yeah.

It's just like, it's just so inappropriate
for a company to have two people

on the same team and like pay one
person like double that's like, so

like outside the realm of anything
that anyone would ever consider.

But it's not unreasonable to say
that a person is like, twice as,

like, if you actually analyze
it, other twice is more valid.

Even more like sometimes they're
like doing 90% of the work.

So the asymmetry is always there,
and if you're capable of being an

independent, you can just capture them.

I mean, you, you, you know,
there's like, you did that as well.

So it's just like, yeah, it's
just like the salary thing

is, it's all again, so random.

Like it's, it's timing.

It's all these weird things that
are just lucky in a lot of ways.

Adam: yeah.

I have a totally unrelated question,
but just bringing up your Twitter, when

are you gonna run out of things to say,
when are you gonna like not have this

like just steady stream of, you have
like four th, I don't know, four or

five tweets a day that are like, where
does this come from in your brain?

Like, how do you have
this much in your brain?

Dax: You know what's funny?

It's funny you bring that up because
almost every day I'm like, oh, that's it.

I'm run, I'm outta stuff like every day.

I'm just like.

I don't like, I think I, this is
all the stuff that I know about.

These are like all the good thoughts I
have and I, I really can't see myself

coming up with like anything else.

And sometimes it lasts like a couple
days where I'm just like, yeah,

no good thoughts about anything.

But eventually, like there's just more
stimulus that like triggers something.

But yeah, I, I feel that same way too.

Like I'm just like, I'm out.

I'm done.

I don't have anything
smart to say anymore.

Adam: I think I actually did run
out like two years ago, and that's

why I just don't tweet anymore.

I just had a lot less to work with.

Dax: Yeah.

I think I just have a lot of stimulus.

Like I just have like a
crazy amount of stimulus,

Adam: yeah.

Dax: of my work.

Adam: You get on Hacker
News and stuff, don't you?

Dax: no, it's like I'm talking with
Jay and Frank all the time and they're

both like really smart and they have
like a lot of thoughts a lot of times.

Like the stuff that I'm posting about
is really just stuff that they've said

and we've like discussed together.

Adam: You talk with me a lot.

I'm really smart.



Dax: Talk with you.



that does something for


Adam: lot.

It does something,

Dax: there's that.

Then I get like all the inbound
from like a community saying

stuff, talking about stuff.

Um, I'm always talking
with other founders.

Like I had a meeting with
another founder yesterday.

We had coffee.

Ton of,

Adam: Like a YC thing.

You just like get together with YC people?

Dax: no,

Adam: No.


Just founders got

Dax: Just, yeah, I don't know.

Just like, yeah.

So I feel like I just come across a lot
of people talking about different things.

Like the guy I talked to yesterday
was, is, uh, a really smart guy.

Like, you know, several exits already
starting a new company, uh, in ai, but

like, not like a stupid AI company.

Like he's really like putting in a lot of
work to think about what he wants to do.

So I talked to him for like two, like
almost two hours about, I asked like

every possible question that I had about
the space and he's, he's, he spent like

so much time just thinking about it.

Oh, you know who it is.

It's actually a, a Raffa Raffa's boss.

He just left his job and,
uh, he lives in Miami.

Adam: Huh.

Dax: uh, yeah, so like that was like two
hours of like such interesting stuff.

Adam: Why did I think he was
independent or something?

Dax: He was for a while, like
he was at Steady for a while.

Then he, then he left and was kind
of independent and he joined, uh,

this company called Vendor, uh,

which this guy Aaron's, a CTO of.

And, uh, yeah.

So, you know, it's just like,
it just comes down to stimulus.

Like if you're

Adam: Yeah.

Dax: that stuff, eventually you'll
have something interesting to say.

Adam: I do have more interesting
thoughts when I'm like listening

to a good book or something.

Dax: Yeah,

Adam: I mean, I guess
I don't have thoughts.

I just, I'm regurgitating things I read
in the book, but my, my brain is like more

Dax: stimulus.

That's stimulus.

Don't, don't cut.

Don't sell yourself

Adam: Oh wow.

I do, I go, I can go weeks at a
time without any stimulus, can't I?

I have stimulus from like the
team I work with, like the people.

You do have a lot of stimulus.

I need more stimulus

Dax: I think I have
above average stimulus.

You might have like an average
amount, like people from like work and

Adam: I think I have
below average stimulus.

I think, uh, I have above
average CO2 in my office.

Do you have one of these things now?

Because it's like flashing at me.

I'm, I'm getting into the red.

It's all

Dax: it's cause you're talking.

That's funny.

Uh, Liz made a joke today 'cause
she was talking about how she

couldn't sleep well and she was
like, should we open the window?

Is it the CO2?

But I was like, didn't
CO2 make you sleepy?


Adam: It should help.

Um, man, it, it does though.

The window helps.


Dax: okay.

My question is, I am, I am like
in the worst room possible for

this and I, I refuse to get one.

I refuse to get a CO2 monitor.

Like I can't, I just refuse to get one.

I just think it's dumb.

I think it's dumb.

Adam: I mean, to be fair, like whatever
the number, I've never felt effects

where I'm like, oh, my brain is foggy.

It must be CO2,

Dax: Well the other thing is I have air
conditioning running all year round.

Does that make a difference?

Adam: Maybe

Dax: Because my air, the air
is circulating technically.

So I'm wondering if it's like
a AC in a room situation.

Adam: I'll tell you one thing I did
learn yesterday, uh, that it was

very helpful to know, uh, because
we have one of these monitors.

If you put dry ice in the bathtub
for your kids to just poke at and see

the fog and stuff, critical levels of
CO2 in the room, like it hit numbers.

It was like 2,500 or something.

Dax: Were you carrying around with you?

Like what?


Adam: No.

We set it in the bathroom while,

'cause they just, whenever we
get like, uh, we get like food

delivery and it'll be like dry ice

Dax: Yeah.

No, it's so fun to play with.

Adam: Yeah, they love it.

It's like steaming over the
bathtub walls, you know?

Uh, so we did that, but we put the
thing in there just to see, 'cause

it's like basically CO2, right?

Like it's what dry ice is, I guess.

Dax: Yeah.


Adam: It's like hardened.

I don't know.

Dax: There's a place by me that we get
ice cream from sometimes it's like a

liquid nitrogen ice ice cream place.

I dunno if you've ever had this.

It's ice cream that's
made with liquid nitrogen.

Adam: It's made with it or like made cold

Dax: The process involves liquid nitrogen.

But like, I don't know.

I remember how exactly it works.

I, I've done this as like, when I was
a kid, I was like a science experiment

before, but I don't remember how it works.

But the result is like the
smoothest creamiest ice cream.

It, like, it's, it's so good.

And we get this like like, like
Nutella mixed in there too.

Adam: Yeah.

Dax: It is, uh, it is insane.

I haven't had it in a while
'cause I'm on keto, but.

It's very good.

Adam: So one of, uh, our dreams, Casey
and I, is to like retire and have a little

food truck and sell banana ice cream.

We make banana ice cream.

Have you ever had banana ice

Dax: No, you've told me about it and
it's how simple it is and how good it is.

I haven't

Adam: Yeah.

We make it almost like every day.

Uh, we just have a constant
supply of bananas ripening

and going into the freezer.

and we've gotten it
down and it's delicious.

I mean, it really, it like, I don't
know if it tastes just like ice cream.

I haven't had dairy ice
cream in a long time.

But it's just like this smooth,
it's like vanilla ice cream.

I mean it really, you take frozen
bananas, you blend them up.

It's amazing how the texture
and everything else, it's

like soft serve ice cream.


Dax: Yeah.

I have to try.


Adam: love to like sell it out of a stand
or something and like expose people.

'cause there's so many people
that can't do dairy now or ever,

and that's a lot more common.

Like people are realizing they
shouldn't consume dairy, they

don't do well with it or whatever.

Uh, you have all these alt melts.

Dax: What about, all the
people that can't eat bananas?

What about them?

Adam: Are there people
that can't eat bananas?

Dax: Yeah, it drives them bananas.

Adam: Oh wow.

I didn't see that one coming.

Just doesn't seem on brand for Dex

Dax: it is not.

But I saw the opportunity, uh,
you know what I want, you know, I

actually really want to get, uh,
banana trees because you know, those

like smaller bananas that are like
freaking delicious, but like you never

get those.


Yeah, My, so that's, yeah.

Adam: We order 'em from your

Dax: Right.


So we want to, I want to get those,
because those are so, they're so

much better than normal bananas.

Do you make ice cream out of
those or do you just use a

Adam: No, we just use Cavendish, just the
normal 'cause we can get 'em at the store.

We used to buy literal boxes of
bananas even before we had kids.

We ate so many bananas.

Now, I guess we, we eat
less, which is weird.

Uh, but we would buy, like, we'd go
to the grocery store and walk out

with an entire box, which is like,
I don't know, 20 bunches of bananas.

It's a lot.

And people would always be like, what
are you doing with those bananas?

We're freezing 'em or making ice cream.

But yeah, the, the small ones, we just
get those to eat, like the miso and

there's like the praying hands, bananas.

There's a lot of good banana varieties.


This episode, I mean, we never
really have a train of thought, but

this is, we're all over the place.

Dax: well, I'm about to pivot hard.

Adam: Oh, good.

Let's pivot, but don't
just pivot Dax, pivot hard.

Dax: Pivot hard.

It's only, only kind of
pivot that's worth it

Adam: Plant that foot.


Let's really pivot.

Dax: Rotates 90, maybe 180 degrees.

So, I've been doing a bunch of
CloudFlare work for the past week

Adam: this is good.

Dax: and I've been having
a really good time with it.

It is a.

It's a fun platform.

Adam: SST ion, right?

You like it's gonna be deployed
from SST, so now we can have

like the mix of cloud providers.

Dax: Yeah.

So one of the reasons we started
doing it is because, uh, we're like

doing all the binding stuff and we
wanna make sure, like this version of,

we're actually renaming to linking.

So you can link, uh, when you link
resources together, uh, we want

to, we want to make sure that our
implementation isn't too coupled to

AWS so if having CloudFlare worker
support means like, we're kind of

forced to support it in a better way,
but we're gonna have, we're gonna be

able to do, do like, like our demo,

we'll be able to do something like
create an S3 bucket and then link it to a

CloudFlare worker and then upload a file.

Like you can go across
stuff easily that way.

Uh, and 'cause I really wanna
get to a place where people can

incrementally try workers for stuff.

So if you look at like our bills, uh,
Lambda is the highest part of our bill.


And there's one function that is
probably like 80% of that bill,

and it's just something that's like
reacting to an event, bridge event.

So we want to have a way to just
swap that out with the CloudFlare

worker 'cause it's way cheaper.

And just experiment with that.

Having to like move everything over.

Adam: It's got that different
billing model, right?

Like you only are billed for
active compute, not like idle.

Dax: Yeah.

It, it's cheaper to begin with.

And then you, you're not billed
for IO waiting and this function

does a lot of IO waiting.

Adam: So that was one of my questions.

Like for traditional web app, like
let's say you're building a next JS

app and you're using Open Next and s
SST to deploy it, it would a future

ideal infrastructure look like you're
using CloudFlare to replace CloudFront?

I assume you're not also setting up
a CloudFront distribution, right?

Just CloudFlare is your CDN.

Dax: So there's like, the reality is
when you start to say, okay, I'm gonna

use two different cloud providers,
even within AWS there's kind of

an infinite number of ways you can
configure a NextJS site or Astro site.

You add in another cloud provider,
now there's like, you know, infinite

times, infinite number of ways that
you can configure the combination.

Adam: And that's why I, I'm
asking sort of from like the

perspective of next JS specifically,

like is there an ideal infrastructure
when you blend these different, if

you have all the providers at your
disposal, what does it look like?

I assume it's something
similar to what Vercel does.

Dax: It's actually not weirdly enough

Adam: oh yeah.

'cause they're slow

Dax: yeah.

'cause they have the extra hop in between.


Adam: And that was my next question
too, follow up if you wanna just go and

get into this, is like, when you start
blending different providers, what kind of

latency issues do you have to think about?

Like when it's database
connections and stuff?

Go ahead.

Dax: So we're bas I think, I think our
approach is we're gonna do two extremes.

So today we have the extreme of
Next.js on AWS using all AWS stuff.

Uh, we're gonna do a version of
next Js that is like very, very

CloudFlare oriented, um, which
is like the kind of pretty much

entirely running on, on CloudFlare.

So the question is like, what about
the in-between step where you mix

two, we're not a hundred percent sure
if people actually want this, but

it could actually be pretty simple.

Uh, it could just be dropping CloudFront
and then putting CloudFlare as as a CDN in



Adam: workers or lambda
functions at that point for

Dax: You're still using Lambda functions.

Uh, maybe you can do that.

Like you can flag certain routes as

Adam: as

Dax: edge or whatever, and then
those can get deployed, but

Adam: But CloudFlare workers,
I've never worked with them.

They're not node, right?


Dax: They're not Node.


And a lot of dependencies
do not work with them.

You pretty much have
the architect for them.

Adam: Yeah.

Dax: Yeah.


Adam: functions or whatever.

Dax: yeah.

It's better than, I mean, it's not as

Adam: It's more, yeah.

Less limited than that.

Dax: Yeah.

And it's expanding.

It's like constantly expanding.

Like they're adding more and
more node APIs, kinda like how

BUN is doing the same thing.

Adam: yeah.

So who's doing that work?

That's just a CloudFlare team that's
kind of doing what the BUN team is doing.

Sort of?

Dax: Yep, yep.


Adam: Like building this other JavaScript
runtime that also supports node APIs.

Dax: Yeah.

But it's, it's like a narrower focus.

Like they're not trying to be
like a hundred percent drop

in compatibility with Node.

Um, there's more constraints.

'cause their goal is just to
host it really efficiently

on their infrastructure.

I mean they're working on that.

And I think at this point it's it,
to be honest, it's a lot like moving

from not serverless to serverless.

Like you can try and just drop in your
old applications until end of function,

but it's gonna be like, either not work
or it's gonna be an efficient Yeah.

So people got to a place where they
were like architecting specifically

for a Lambda architecture.

Uh, it's kind of like that, like you would
architect specifically for CloudFlare.

And all the primitives are there.

And it, it's kind of interesting because
I've discovered that there are people

building full applications on CloudFlare.

Um, it's, it's happening like
people are already doing this

or proving you can do it.

They're all extremely pro.

Like, they're all like, they all like
really know this stuff because you have

to right now to like, use this stuff well.

That's what's exciting to me 'cause I
feel like they've proven it's possible.

I can see how it's possible and
it's really just missing something

that like, brings it into the
hands of like the average person.

Adam: Yeah, that's, that's what I
wondered, like what are the existing

infrastructures, code options?

Is it just Terraform right now

Dax: It's just Terraform.

Uh, and they have their own
Wrangler thing, which is uh, which

is their like take on helping
you build stuff in CloudFlare.

It's not infrastructure as code approach.

And it's kind of like really focused
on building like a single worker

as opposed to a whole application.

Um, not to say you can't do that and
everyone doing CloudFlare stuff today is

using Wrangler, but I think our approach,
what we did for AWS and Lambda and like

the live debug and having your whole
application defined there and things

connecting together, I think if we bring
that over it'll be really compelling.

Adam: Yeah.

Best dev experience on
CloudFlare, probably.

Dax: Exactly.

And the team has been
super, super helpful.

Like they set up a Slack channel
with us and really proactive and

like trying to like help us take over

Adam: Yeah.

You kind of had a similar
Lummi experience too, right?


Dax: Yeah.

It's so weird when people
actually want to be helpful.

Adam: What is this like?

You started with just AWS and it's like,
man, working with companies is hard.

Dax: Yeah.

I know.

AWS literally instead of just working with
us, they like spun up a team to copy SST.

Like, it just like, why, it
just doesn't make any sense.

Like no one on that team is motivated.

Adam: I mean, that's
kind of how they operate.

When you think about the open
source ecosystem, they've

Dax: Like serverless framework and
Sam is kind of the same story I.

Adam: Yeah.

And then even outside of tooling, like
you look at runtime stuff with Elastic

and there's been other stuff, right,
where they just kind of like, we'll just

build a team that builds this stuff too.

Dax: Yeah, it's, and it's fine for
stuff like that, but it just doesn't

work for like last mile tools.

It's like, why would it just,
not that it's not a good fit.

So, uh, but yeah, it's nice
to have companies that one

naturally do that stuff better.

Like Cloudflare's stuff is
just so simple and, and nice.

And on top of that, they're
like really excited about us

building stuff for their eco.

So what, as one as you would expect, one
would be when you're like, you know, you

put something out there and other people
put it on top, that should excite you.


But it, uh, yeah,
surprisingly not with AWS.

We need to get like the live
debug, so like, live, well we, we

always called it live lambda, but
I guess it doesn't make sense here.

We need a new name for it.

Adam: Live functions or live something.

Dax: Uh, once we get that working, then
yeah, people will be able to use workers.

And I want, I need to find a way to
like subscribe a worker to an SQSQ.

Like an event

Adam: Oh, wow.


You're bringing it to people
like me who would've probably, it

would've been a long time before
I really broke into CloudFlare.

Dax: 'cause right now it's all or nothing,
but we think we can make an incremental

pathway to using CloudFlare stuff.

Adam: Hmm.

All very fascinating stuff.

I'm trying to, I'm teaching this, I'm
trying to like teach this stuff and it's

a very moving target, like I want to teach
SST is a big part of, I think, bridging

the gap between modern web devs and.

things that you have to think about
for 10 seconds with infrastructure.

Like they've just never
had to think about it.

And they're like kind of coddled
with some of the other companies

and tools that are out there.


So I feel like SST is this linchpin and
you guys just move so fast, it's very

Dax: Yeah, I know.

Adam: training materials and it's like,
I don't want to teach the old thing.

Do I even consider stacks?

Like those are gonna go away?

Uh, now I'm just, I'm thinking out loud,

Dax: Yeah.

No, I know.

It's, it's like, it's like a weird time.

But I mean, AWS is still like our
big focus, the CloudFlare stuff

is more to just make like harden

our design so we're not like
so coupled to one thing.


Um, but the AWS stuff
on, on ion is also great.

Like we've been deploying
stuff through that and

Adam: Yeah.

If you move past the, I know you
were working on the, the open

next, the next JS construct.

Have you gone into any
other constructs yet, or

Dax: yeah.

So we've got, uh, we've
got our function construct.

We've got the new Aurora V two stuff.

We've got,

Adam: You got, the new Aurora
V two stuff with the data API.

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: That's all on ion now.

Dax: Yeah.

Uh, I mean, we haven't, we haven't like
released or documented any of this stuff.

But the thing that I,
the thing that, yeah,

Adam: I'm like, Dax,
gimme a new build today.

I don't care.

Just give it to me and then you do, and

Dax: I, so the thing that I worked on the
last couple days was we have a new secret

system and it's like so much better,
uh, the, all the stuff that you've been

waiting for, like the pre fetcher for
astro, like, it, that's just how that

works by default now in the, in, in ion
and a lot of stuff is like really clean.


Adam: when can I

Dax: a lot simpler.

Adam: for playing around?

Dax: Yeah.

So we actually talked about this.

We're actually gonna use your
project as like, let's, like,

help Adam successfully move over.

And that'll be like a good test bed
of what the, the migration looks like.

Adam: Let's, let's do that.

Let's help Adam move over.

I like it.

Dax: yeah.

Um, 'cause yours like between,
between your thing and our console,

which also has to move over.

That's like, I think that covers like a

pretty, pretty good amount of things.


Soon I think we're, I think by end of
January we'll have like a stable release

where I'm not breaking stuff all the time.

Adam: That's insane to me.

I remember thinking this was gonna
be like summer when you first talked

about ion, like, like a whole new
rewrite, six months something, but it

feels like it's moving really fast.

Dax: Yeah.


It's this funny thing where, and
Jay talks about this all the time.

I, I actually don't, I don't have
examples that come to mind right away,

but this is like a common thing where
you'll have a team that has built a

product and gained expertise in something
and they'll like launch a new, more

focused thing using their expertise.

And it usually comes out really
nice 'cause like the first X

years were basically research
to build that expertise.

And you just nail it on
that, uh, on that second try.

Um, we're hoping that's how it pans out.

Adam: Yeah.

What, what is that adage that
the takes three implementations

to get anything right.

This is

Dax: It really feels like that.

Adam: of SST, right?

Dax: Yeah.


Adam: SST two, and then

Dax: One, two, and three.



Adam: Never been a better
time to be a web developer.

We really do.

We really do have it made, like,
as much as Twitter can get really

annoying and sometimes it just
feels like we spend a lot of time

talking about the stupidest stuff.

It really is, there's just so many ways to
do things today, and it's, it's exciting.

Dax: I have a, this brings
up something for me.

I dunno if you saw, I posted the other
day where I'm like, everything people

talk about on Twitter's just so boring.

Like it's just the most
boring, irrelevant stuff ever.

Uh, Yeah.

Talking to this guy yesterday that,
so, hi his, he's starting this

company and he's not like trying
to do like, oh, like just the next

iterative AI thing that like
generates a lot of buzz.

He's imagining like, what could the
world look like in five years and given

like x things exist in five years, like
what company would need to exist then?

And he's trying to build, he's like
trying to end run it and build that now.

Um, and it's talking about what
he's working on and it's like,

obviously it's a massive bet.

Like he's predicting like a lot of, uh,
really optimistic advancements in the

next five years, like the most optimistic
case and he is building for that.

But it obviously, it seems really crazy.

And then I go on Twitter and people are
like arguing about ternary just like,

Adam: That is a thing
in the last couple days.

What, where'd that come from?

Dax: yeah.

I'm just like, like this guy is
imagining a world where you literally

like onboard an AI agent the same way
you onboard an employee and give them

access to like their Okta account,
their Google Drive account, and you

like train them and then you like work
with them as like a real employee.

And then people are like debating like,
ternary I'm just like, you guys, there's

a, there's like a bulldozer coming.

Like, you have no idea
what's, what's on the way.

And this is like, you know, if this
is what we're gonna talk about.


I think we deserve to get squished,

Adam: need to be

Dax: squished by that.

Um, yeah, obviously he's like you
extremely, he represents like the

maximal like AI maximalist scenario.

Uh, and even for that, like there's
still so much work to be done in the

world he's envisioning, but not by
the people arguing about ternary.

I guarantee that.


Adam: Oh man.

Dax: Yeah.

I just feel like stuff just
feels like boring or like

kind of out of touch or Yeah.

I just feel a little like detached

Adam: Yeah.

It does feel like there's just a lot
of manufacturing stuff to talk about,

'cause we're all just kind of in this
collective space of Twitter and I.

I don't know.

You can only, like, I just don't
really talk about tech anymore,

maybe because of these things.

Uh, I feel like you can only talk
about what you ate and how you

worked out today so many times.

And then it's just kinda like, I'm bored.

I don't have a reason to be here.

Let's talk about ternary.

Dax: Yeah.

Well, I was even reading my, it was
like going through like some of my

tweets for the past week, and I'm
like, yeah, I don't really talk

about programming that much anymore.

Adam: Is it more like, I'm
trying to think what you tweet.

Is it more like, uh, higher
level, like thought processes and

organizational philosophies and

Dax: I, I don't even know, like, I, I
don't, I don't know if the stuff I talk

about has a category, but I just know
I'm not talking about like programming.


Adam: no.

Yeah, it's still tech related.


Dax: Yeah.

Adam: it, yeah.

It's Daxism.

It's just every tweet is like a,
it's like a Dax view of the world.

Dax: It's either that or it's
a troll or it's an insult.

Those are my three.

Adam: people.

There's a lot of that too.


Dax: You know, people love being insulted.

Adam: they really do.

I think people like you, you come
off a certain way at first, and

then they're like, man, I kind of
like being talked to like that.

Like I like that

Dax is mean to me.

Dax: Everyone just wants someone
to be a little mean to them.

That's what I'm convinced of.

People love it every time.

I'm like aggressively mean.

Those tweets are the ones that
go like, get the most likes.

I'm like, you all love this.

I know it.

Adam: That's so funny.

Dax: Yeah.

I wonder if it's because everyone
reads it and they're like,

he is not talking about me.

He's talking about everybody else.

Adam: You tweeted something,
you tweeted something yesterday.

I had the opposite thought where
I was like, he's talking about me.

It was something you said.


What was it?

It was something about like upfront
pain, like work, you only wanna work

with people anytime you say you only
wanna work with people that do x.

I think, oh man, I did something
that's the opposite of that.

And he's like, I'm so
tired of working with Adam.

That's, that's when I asked you if
I was annoying you because I really

thought that tweet was about me.

And it

Dax: but no, that, it's funny 'cause I
think you're a good example of that tweet.

Like you take

a lot of

Adam: the upfront.

Oh, I do do that.

'cause I don't know if I do or not.

I mean, I do cold plunges.

That's upfront pain, so.

Dax: I'm definitely not, I'm definitely
not encouraging your cold plunges.


Adam: Okay.

That's why I was late today, by the way.

I was in the cold plunge,

Dax: And you like almost died.

You like, you like froze.

Adam: Yeah, it's like 20 degrees outside.

It really sucks when there's

Dax: Okay.

You know, here's my
suggestion for your sleep.

Maybe just like reset everything
and be like, go back to not doing


Adam: like stop listening
to huberman and like

Dax: You just have like, so you have
so many variables going on here.

Adam: do

Dax: it, it's a lot.

So I feel you just need to cut and

Adam: Yeah.

I have introduced like a
ton of new supplements, a

ton of new workout routines.

It's just a lot of different
things in the last few weeks maybe.

Maybe it is.

It's one of those things and
I need to just chill out.

Maybe I've just seen a
little like reset, just

Dax: Yeah.

I mean you can bring these
things back in, but maybe it'll

give you some clarity on what,

Adam: yeah.

Dax: what it is.

Adam: Casey's convinced it's just stress.

I don't feel extra stressed.

I feel normal stress, which is
like, I always feel stressed.

I always just assume like,
we're never gonna make another

dollar and I have to do.

You do, do you have that feeling?

Like just constantly feel
like it's all gonna go away.

I'm never gonna be able
to make money again.

And it's like every month is like a new,

Dax: I feel it's funny like the
further I get my career like.

Like, of course your fallbacks
and your floor increases, but like

never actually feels that way.

Adam: Never.

Yeah, you never feel safe.

You never

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: things are just set.

It's always this feeling of

Dax: The world just keeps changing.

Adam: yeah, Uhhuh.

Dax: Stuff just keeps changing.

Like if, if, if the world froze
where it was like three or four

years ago, I'd probably feel like

Adam: Yeah.

Dax: something, but

Adam: But now I can't help but think
about the AI agents that somebody's gonna

unleash and like, knowledge workers are
just all gonna lose our jobs en mass.


I am breathing good.

I'm gonna lower that cortisol.

Dax: Maybe you can't sleep
'cause of fear of ai.

Adam: maybe AI has
scared me sleepless, huh?

Well, I don't know what to do about that.

The cold plunge isn't, I can't cut
that out and see any improvement.

All right, this just got really dark.

I feel like we need to end.

Can we end on some kind
of a high note here?

Dax: uh.

I hung out with Ken Wheeler,

Adam: Oh

Dax: uh, on Tuesday.

Adam: Yeah,


was good.

What was What was, the drink?

What was the, I saw the tweet
with the, like, came out in a

Dax: He, he shows

up and he is like, he messages me being
like, oh, I have to get drinks with, he is

got, got skip level meeting or whatever.

Um, and he shows up and he's had six
old fashions already and he's showing

me texts from the guy he met with.

And the guy just like done, he's
like back at the hotel room,

like just completely just done.

And Ken is like, like, you would
never even think he's drunk.

He just seems like jolly, like he
doesn't really seem like anything.

Uh, and then we sit down and then
he gets, he talks like we're talking

to the waiter and then he's like,
oh, do you like old fashioned?

And he goes, I just had six of them.

And then the waiter's like,
okay, well you want more?

And it's like some fancy old fashioned,
and they brought it out in a box

full of, maybe it was dry ice.

Adam: dry ice.

Dax: it was that, uh, steam thing.

Um, the fog thing.

So yeah, he ordered two of those.

So he had eight total.

Adam: Oh my word.

Dax: And again,

Adam: Did you drink?

Did you drink anything or were you


completely sober?

Dax: I had one drink and I was driving.

So I, I couldn't, I didn't wanna
drink too much, but, uh, yeah, I was

like, if I think if I had like two,
I would definitely be like, obviously

drunk and three, I would be like very



And yeah, he just like, he's just
a very functioning alcoholic.

It just, it is impressive.

Adam: Uh, it's funny.


Dax: Uh, he made fun of you.

I brought you up.

He made fun of you as
you as you would expect.

Adam: I would expect, yeah.

I've only had the one Ken experience
in Atlanta, but I'm sure he

had plenty of material to work

Dax: Very intense place to meet him.

Adam: Yeah, right.

He's got a, a lot going on in Atlanta.


Dax: Yeah, it was fun.

He just told me like a million
stories because he has just

like the craziest, craziest


Uh, and I was just
laughing the whole time.

Adam: Yeah.

That's how my experience with Ken is gone.

Dax: and then I dropped
him off at his hotel.

He actually might move here.

Like, seriously?

Not even, not even as a joke.

Adam: Yeah, he, I mean,
he belongs in Miami.


Dax: yeah, he fits in perfectly.

Uh, his company's HQ is here.

They probably want him to be
around here to begin with.

Adam: Yeah.

Keep tabs.

Dax: Yeah.

And if he moves here,
he's actually gonna move.

I think he would move to a neighborhood
like five minutes away from me.

So how weird would it be if the
two people that were, that, the

two engineers from Tech Twitter,
that from Miami are Me and Ken.

It's just like,

Adam: Uh, two

Dax: Jersey, so there's
like, there's a, there's a,

there's some like,
there's some like history.


There's something going on here.

He's giving a talk at React Miami.

Adam: I was gonna say, I'm
excited about React Miami.

I guess all the speaker that I've
been seeing, the people post like

I'm speaking or I'm not speaking,
so I guess that's all happened now.

Dax: Yeah.

The official posts with the speakers
are gonna be in five days or

think something I think next week,

mid next

Adam: some disappointment, like I've
been disappointed in some of the people

that won't be speaking, and I guess
like those people just don't come

when they're not speaking, which is

Dax: know.

'cause it's expensive.




Adam: As someone who's not trying
to speak, I'm just planning on going

to React Miami, and then I learn
like, oh, these people won't be there

because their talk didn't get accepted.

That sucks.

Dax: Yeah.

So I saw the full speaker list and
I think it was a conservative pick.

I think It wasn't like, there wasn't
many like weirder choices for talk.

I think it was like kind of conservative.


Which I


Adam: it's a hard thing.


Dax: there's like,

yeah, so many spots and there's like
a lot of eyeballs on it this year.

So it definitely, probably feels difficult
to make, like bets on weird things.

Um, so it's, it's like very much
like anything tech related is

like, pretty much react related.

Um, there's like not too much like
outside the bounds of that, uh,

but it'll still be a good time.


Adam: Oh, it's gonna be such a good time.

Dax: there's still a good amount of
people that are going, regardless

of they're talking, except it or
not, um, my party's gonna be fun.

I'm excited about

Adam: Oh, I'm so excited about your party.

If I'm invited, I'm excited.

I can come, right?

Dax: Did I tell you about
the funny detail about

that situation?

Adam: No.

Dax: Do you know?

This is so high school.

It's the most high school thing ever.

But, uh, if they

Adam: Is there a rival party

Dax: and we're, yes, not really,
not really a rival party, but

it's during Guillermo's keynote.

Adam: What your, wait, your party's
gonna be during his keynote?

Dax: Yeah.

Because like, you know how React,
react Miami is like inside a bigger

Adam: Oh, yeah.


Dax: Yeah.

And they wanted to do like
something with React Miami.

So having Guillermo give a talk
at the main conference, and I'm

pretty sure my thing is during
it and I'm like, this is perfect.

This is perfect.

Adam: I thought you were saying
there was another party going on

Dax: I mean, it's sort Yeah.

It's like, there's like a
conflict at the same time.

Adam: a conflict.

Dax: Yeah.

So people are gonna have to choose pick.

Adam: Choose between.



Dax: Pick

Adam: The tension between
you and the triangle company.

It's one of my favorite
things on the internet.

Dax: Yeah.

It is funny.

I just love the asymmetry.

It's, it's

Adam: Well, 'cause like you're a person
and they're like a venture-backed entity.

So like they could have an ending.

I guess you could have an ending too,
but like, I dunno, you eat pretty good.

You seem like you're
taking care of yourself.


Dax: I will outlast them.


Adam: I would think

Dax: I think it's a good

Adam: Most companies
don't make it very long.

That's not, I'm not gonna
have to put like shame on them

Dax: No, that's, yeah, just like

Adam: like most companies
don't last that long.

So yeah, it's an interesting.

Dax: Yeah.

So, yeah, Stefan was saying the other
day, like, are you like worried because

there's like, you know, people invested
like hundreds of millions of dollars

into this thing and like,

Adam: Yeah.

And you're like the antagonist.

Dax: if I, yeah, like

Adam: There are like movies
with less crazy plots where

like your character gets killed.

Dax: Yeah, I know.


Adam: you've said.

Wow, you're really brave, Dax.

You're so brave.

Dax: People bring that one up, but
nobody, everyone forgets Prisma.

Prisma is really the one
that I'm the most proud of.

Adam: Like you're the most proud
of your stance on Prisma and

Dax: well, 'cause they were just
such an annoyance for me personally,

every single day of my life.

'cause of all the support we had
to do, trying to get Prisma working

inside Lambda and just
everything around that.

Uh, and then.

Guillermo built his new demo with Drizzle.

Adam: Ooh.

So even Vercel has moved away.


Even the triangle company
has moved away from Prisma.


Does I feel like everyone just kind of
collectively, and you were a big part of

the, the wave here, like everyone just
sort of collectively did away with Prisma.

Like obviously Drizzle done really well.

A lot of people just moved to Drizzle.

But even aside from that, just
like people stopped using Prisma,

it became known like Prisma bad.

And mostly because like, it was so tight.

People, everyone that uses Vercel
takes up the majority of the,

the discourse on Twitter already.

Uh, so they're the most vocal and
they were all like using Prisma,

which was just a terrible combination.

And yeah, it's

Dax: Yeah.

And that, that's like that, you
know, that company raised like

a hundred something million


Adam: the, like, they're big, right?

They have like a lot of people, a

Dax: or they used to at least, I don't
know what's going on with them lately.

But yeah, I never see
anyone talking about.

Like rarely see people
talking about Prisma anymore.


Adam: Yeah, there's a lot of
venture dollars at stake here.

Dax, you, you've kind of been like
on a heater, you should probably

look over your shoulder a little

Dax: Okay.

But hey, here's the thing.

I just love money.

If you want me to stop, just pay me.

Adam: Just pay.

Dax: Just pay.

You don't have to kill me.

You don't have to do anything
that's, you know, risking you go

Adam: just pay you and you'll be nice.

You'll start saying
positive things about Prisma

Dax: I won't say positive
things, but I'll shut up.

Adam: You just won't say bad


Oh, right.


Dax: It's

Adam: have to, oh, you haven't
said anything about Prisma in a

while if I'm thinking about it.

Is that because everyone stopped
using it and you don't feel like

you need to or because a little,

Dax: Wish they were paying me.

I wish they were paying me.

Honestly, it just takes, I think it's
worth like a hundred K a year to have me

shut up and never talk about your company.

Adam: I

Dax: Just a couple of
those companies like,

Adam: If you're Prisma, it really is,
the economics actually makes sense.

Dax: yeah, it makes a
hundred percent sense.

Adam: it really does make sense.

I'm sure you've caused that much
in damages, not to just keep

beating this drum and don't need
to really get somebody after you.


Dax: Yeah.

So that's, I mean, that's like a reverse
dev, re reverse sponsorship or something.

Adam: Yeah, I say, well, so I started
doing the math and then I realized,

wait, does pe, do people pay for Prisma?

Who pays for Prisma?

How did they raise so much money?

Who pays for

Dax: of like, that was like
my first tweet ever about them.

I was like, the year is 2022.

And your ORM has


raised $75 million.


Adam: Oh,

Do you know anybody that's
paying, like their credit card is

entered into the Prisma website.

Dax: Well, yeah, because people that
are, that are using it and had all

the, or the, like, the performance
issues and they're kind of stuck paying

Adam: The, the issues they
caused, here's a solution.

Dax: yeah, it's like a, it's like
a, until they figure out how to move

off of it, like it's a easy solution.

Uh, yeah.

Then they have this like new real
time thing that like sends you real

time updates from, changes in your


Adam: there's a space, the
real time space is heating up.

There's a

Dax: don't know about that


Adam: that a space that can
support multiple startups?

Dax: I feel like people have been entering
that space for like my entire like career.

I've just been seeing like real
time made easy forever, like ever.

Adam: Yeah.


Dax: and yeah, no one's really won it.

So I guess there's still an opportunity,

Adam: Is it, is it because, like,
is part of the problem, the inherent

issue that like not everything needs
real time or There's very, is it

just very few use cases, very few
apps that really need real time.

Dax: I was talking to Sunil about
this because he's working on Party

Kit and which is in the space.

And my point to him was, I think
the problem with the marketing of

all these solutions is they focus on
the most real time cool demos, which

are like whiteboarding or like some
like crazy collaborative situation.


Which all like looks cool and like
shows that their product is powerful,

but that just makes people think like,
oh, it's for one, I need to build one.

Like those apps, those

Adam: Yeah.

As opposed to like thinking in terms of
the thing they're already working on, how

Dax: Yeah.

Which every app should

Adam: Yeah.

Could benefit.

Dax: Yeah, if you have two tabs
open, you add stuff in one tab,

the other tab should be updated
if someone else edits something.

It's not like real time
collaborative stuff, but like

things should get pushed to you.

Like the internet should be pushed based.

Adam: yeah.

You shouldn't have to refresh
the page to get the latest.

Dax: Yeah, exactly.

So I think every app fundamentally needs,
should have this as a component, but

Adam: yeah.

Dax: it doesn't feel that
way with these solutions.

Adam: With your local first stuff with
like Replicache and that architecture, are

you doing, is there like a push component
to that where you're pushing changes if

Dax: funny 'cause uh, it's,
it's, it's this exact thing.

Nothing I build is collaborative.

So my realtime architecture is just a
poke that comes over web socket that

tells the front end to re fetch to


Adam: I see.


Dax: like no data comes
in over the web socket.

There's no diffs, there's no patches.



Adam: you're stale.

Dax: Yeah, like, do it, do it.


And it's like, you know, it's
not the most real time thing.

It's gonna be maybe like a
second or two delayed, but

it's perfect for what I build.

Adam: Yeah, most apps don't need
like seeing the mouse cursor update

in real time of somebody else.

Dax: yeah, exactly.

And that's usually what the
demos are, are focused around.

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's why I
think the Replicache company like

picked a very good set of constraints.

Um, like even them, their like demo is
this, like, if you go to,

which is like their hosted solution,
it is that it is like this crazy 60

frames per second realtime thing.


But Replicache itself, it's like not, it's
like the demo, there is a boring demo.

It's of like, like a, like
a ticket tracker, like a

linear type thing where Yeah.

Like, you know, stuff updates,
someone changes the status.

You see the status change.

You're not seeing their
cursor or any of that.

And there's so many
solutions in, in that space.

Like live blocks was such like
when they were like going through

YC and first launching, like
they were everywhere for a while.

I don't, I don't know what, I
don't know what they're up to.

I'm sure they're doing fine, but

Adam: All those companies
have the coolest landing pages

Dax: I know

Adam: do something that you're not
used to seeing in a landing page.


It's like interactive in some way.

Dax: Yeah.

Like Refle is a, like a, like a puzzle.

There's like a puzzle that spells out
the future is real time or something.

And you do the puzzle with everyone there.

Um, yeah.

Adam: interesting.

It's like that Reddit, there is
some like itch that, that or Yeah.

Itch that, that scratches like the
Reddit, uh, what was that thing?

The where everybody's
painting the picture together.

Dax: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, I forgot what it was called.

Adam: Yeah.

It was, oh, pi uh, pixels.

Is that

Dax: Is that what it's, I don't


Adam: like the one big canvas and like
everyone was, that was amazing actually.

That it, that kind of stuff that really
makes me like, uh, like proud of humanity.

Like, look what we can do.

Like to see people paint like
corners of that thing in a

certain way sounds so hard to me.

Dax: But people do it.

Going back to this real time thing, the
other thing that I've like been acutely

understanding is, I think everyone in the
dev tool space has vastly underestimated

how big you need to be to survive.

Like these days whenever I see a
dev tool, I'm just like, too small,

too small, too small, too small.

It's just like you need to be so
big before you can make enough

money to like sustain yourself.

Um, and a lot of these tools are
like, they're useful and they're good,

but is every company in the world
gonna drop that end to their stack?


And I literally think the only
things are that can survive are

things that like, theoretically,
every company could drop into their

Adam: Somebody brought this
up, maybe you brought it up.

I remember seeing people on Twitter
like call out examples of dev

tool companies that have made it.

It was definitely in
response to a tweet of yours.

Uh, and it was like people
brought up the mega companies.

Like Microsoft is a great example
of like, they're basically just a

giant dev tools company now, right?

I don't know actually I don't
know anything about the revenue.

They probably still have

Dax: I mean, dev dev is a huge part of it.


Adam: it's a huge part of it, right?

'cause like they do these huge
acquisitions, GitHub, yeah.

So they've got this like VS code,
TypeScript, all these things

that are so prevalent in the dev
community, but they're like this

giant mega corp with a ton of history.

What are some like startups
that have made it in the

Dax: So the, the question I
asked was like, what dev tool

companies are doing well?

I should have been more clear.

I meant like startups that were like
founded in the last couple years.

Uh, so some, some people said stuff
like Microsoft, but that's not

exactly what I was looking for.

Most answers were just companies
that people liked and I was

like, they're not doing well.

Adam: They haven't made it yet.

Dax: Yeah,

Like I don't, I I, there's
very few responses.

I think, uh, I feel like Supabase
might be doing decently well.

The only reason I say that is because,
they're in such an interesting situation.

So they built a product
that is theoretically niche.

It's like people that want to use,
that want like a full backend as a

service built on top of Postgres, kind
of like flesh out that architecture

as much as, as you can, and make
the best possible experience of

that, which is like a narrow space.

But they accidentally also built
the best Postgres hosting service.

So a lot of people just use them
as like a generic Postgres host and


And those other tools are like nice for
like debugging and things and especially,

and there's been like new entrance into
this space, like Neon, uh, and like Nile

and there's been like a bunch of them.

And Supabase is still like a good,
like the best default Postgres host.

So you like never you, I like
never see a company where they like

focus narrow and accidentally get a
bigger market and they kind of did.

Um, I dunno if it's, I dunno if they're
doing well enough to say that okay,

they're gonna be around for a long
time, but literally outside of that,

Adam: the path.

What about like, HashiCorp,
what about does that fit your

Dax: So HashiCorp was, is I would
say like they are a little bit

like the previous generation.


Adam: Okay, so not

Dax: they Yeah, but even them,
like they're not doing super well.

Adam: Oh really?

Dax: Like they're a public
company and they're past Yeah.

They're past the point

of like making it for the founder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So definitely.


David, the Sentry CEO actually
quantified it in a good way.

They were like, he was like.

You should have said, who can
forecast a hundred million dollars

in revenue in the next five years?

Adam: Okay.

Dax: And I'm like, yeah, that's
actually exactly what I was looking for.

And I don't, I, I don't know if anything,
anything that I use, anything that I,

Adam: Yeah.

Dax: I don't know.

It's like HashiCorp did well
because some of their tools were

literally like anyone in the world.

Any code base in the world could
use it, whether they did it or not.

Terraform, anything can drop into anywhere
and on, on all the other products as well.

Like who's building at that level.

Adam: Yeah.

It, there was such a peak at the
peak interest rate phenomenon period

here where the, the most money was
slushing around where there's just

so much of the space, like so much of
the venture dollars flowing into dev

tools and it is interesting how few of
those dollars will probably pan out.

Dax: Yeah.

You really have to be like, huge.

So I think most companies
ambition was, wasn't high enough.

Adam: enough.


Dax: Yeah,

Adam: Gotta shoot for the stars so

Dax: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, but actually, like that's,

you really have to overshoot.

Adam: I, that actually made sense.

I'm gonna tweet it if it did.

Did that what I just said
actually applied to a situation.

Hang on.

What was, what did I say?

Shoot for

Dax: you just, you, you just,
you just, you just said a quote.

Adam: Oh, okay.

I can't tweet that then.

Dax: It's not like you
didn't invent that, did you?

I mean, you can tweet it as a

Adam: not

Dax: but I'm like, I feel like
your excitement level isn't


Adam: anonymous.

I just don't have a lot of thoughts, Dax.


When I, when I have a thought,
I gotta start putting 'em down.

Dax: Maybe you should just start
complaining a lot on Twitter.

Adam: I do.

I did that a lot.

I probably still do that a lot.

That's kind of the only thing I've ever
done on Twitter is just complaining.


Dax: like, oh, I can't sleep.

Adam: no.


Yeah, exactly.

And I'm, I'm gonna switch into teaching.

That's gonna be my

Dax: Oh yeah.

I'm excited for that.

I'm excited.


Adam: I'm excited

Dax: sense of when you're gonna

Adam: for being on the internet.

Dax: start to get that going?


Adam: I mean, I'm

Dax: can see

Adam: I am going, uh, there'll be
a free, free thing first coming.

It's basically just like all the
stuff people need to know before

I can really get into the meat
of what I'm trying to teach.

And it's stuff that people who are just
getting started shouldn't have to pay for.

It's just like fundamental,
getting started on AWS.

A lay of the land, sort of a lot of theory
around the different services that you

may not even really have to dive that
deep in when you start dealing with SST.

Like it's a lot of, it's abstracted
but having that foundational

understanding can be really helpful.

It's like going to college and learning
about, like I know stuff about assembly.

I don't write assembly,
but like I know stuff.

So that's basically like a free kind of
half practical, half very theoretical

grounding in AWS for web developers.

Uh, I'd say in the next couple
months that's probably on track.

And then, uh, I think the better part
of this year it's gonna be working

on the broader effort of teaching
this view of the world that I see.

Dax: Nice.

Yeah, it's, uh, it's funny 'cause uh,
trash yesterday was in hell trying to

sign up for AWS because he's trying
to set up, uh, the organizations and

the I Am identity center and all that.

Uh, he didn't do that bad.

He like almost got it right, but,

Adam: Did he reach out to
you on Discord or something?

Or was this, you saw it on Twitter

Dax: well, he, he, he was like,
yeah, he did post on Discord,

like, I am as confusing.

And I was like, oh, talk to me baby.

Adam: Yeah,

Dax: and like it, he got
close but not enough so that

he didn't have to start over.

And I sent him my, that, that, that
document I wrote about signing up

for organizations and, and all that.

And then it's just like.

Like why I, it, it like
actually bummed me out.

'cause I'm like, here's someone that
like wants to use AWS and we rely

on people that are trying to use AWS

and this was his first experience and
he like, almost, he didn't have the

option of actually churning, but like, he
could've just like given up at some point.


Uh, yeah.

And it's like, damn, like this is what
we're like, the only people we ever

see are people that make it past that



Adam: Yeah.

I hope, I hope what I'm doing will help

Dax: Yeah.


Adam: uh, efforts.

Dax: Yeah.

Just signing up for AWS super hard, the


Adam: first step.


Uh, all right.

This, this podcast has been
like an hour and a half long.

This is new.

This, we've gone

Dax: well, the first 20 minutes
were just debugging, but Yeah.

It's a long one.

Adam: Twitch.

It is a long one.

It's okay.

There's no, there's no rules here.

People can just say they
don't wanna listen anymore.

I actually like recording on Thursday.

It feels like it's gonna come out on
Monday, which is like a little fresher.

We talked about stuff, you know,
that maybe like was topical.

I don't know.

Dax: Yeah.

I guess the thing is it gives us stuff
to reflect on from the past couple days.

Adam: Yeah.

If it's not too little time for Chris
to edit this mess of a, of a podcast.


Well this has been good.

I feel like we do need like
a sign off or something.

So it's not just like me having
to use the restroom every time.

Dax: No, that's perfect.

It's great.

Do you have to use the


Adam: is that, no, I
actually don't have to pee.

Have I

not drank

Dax: the hell?

No, this is good.

Now you're, now you're being normal.

Adam: I'm being normal.

Maybe I'll sleep good tonight.

Who knows?

We'll see.

We'll see.

Okay, I guess.


Dax: All right.

But yeah.

Adam: friend.

Dax, I, this is so awkward.

I dunno.

Dunno what to

Dax: we just, we just go
fuck off when we leave.

Adam: Okay.

Dax: All right, Adam, fuck

Adam: that'll be a little aggressive.


Uh, I'm gonna stop the recording.

How about that?

That's not a good ending.


All right.

See it.

X You gotta say buyback.

Just please do that.

Dax: Bye.

Adam: There we

Dax: Bye, Adam.

Creators and Guests

Adam Elmore
Adam Elmore
AWS DevTools Hero and co-founder @statmuse. Husband. Father. Brother. Sister?? Pet?!?
Dax Raad
Dax Raad
building @SST_dev and @withbumi
Realtime, Dev Tooling, AWS Pain, and Sleep Resets
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