Matt Pocock on Voice Coaching, Communication, Gaming, and Teaching How to Code
This guy was supposedly getting hints, via vibrating anal beads.
Adam:I'm sorry. What now? Yes. Anal beads. Yes.
Matt:Via anal beads?
Dax:Yes.
Adam:Anal beads, of course. Yes. Can we go back to the anal beads?
Dax:Yes.
Matt:I came in at anal beads and left the anal beads. So
Dax:Anal beads? Yeah. Yes.
Adam:Matt was a voice, teacher? Yeah. How do you how do you what's the term for that? I I botched that really bad.
Matt:There's there's loads. There's I was Okay. Technically, I was a few different things. I was like a singing teacher and a voice coach and an accent coach and a public speaking coach. So all sorts of Wow.
Matt:But it's all the same gear, basically. So you can kind of blag your way into any job you fancy. It was great fun. Yeah. I did that for, like, 6 years.
Adam:The the one that stood out a lot there was the Accent Coach. Like, you would teach people how to have a fake British accent or any accent?
Matt:It was. So I was contracted for, for example, a drama school where I taught people how to do an American accent for, like, 6 months or something. That is amazing. Isn't that crazy? A general American accent.
Dax:Can you do an American accent right now?
Adam:Can you
Adam:do one?
Matt:I can do an yeah. Of course.
Adam:Well, it's been
Matt:a yeah. You know, super loud. It's been a long time. Oh, no. I can't do it, man.
Matt:I can't do it.
Adam:Oh, man. It's been way too long.
Matt:It's been way too you can look though. There's a whole I've got a whole YouTube channel of me teaching different accents.
Adam:This is amazing. What? I've never seen this.
Matt:So I taught a Brooklyn accent, like a Scottish accent, a French I mean, they're all terrible. You know, like, I look back now. It's just just like you know the saying, like, if you if you look back on yourself, you don't feel embarrassed, you know, you haven't grown. So that's that's like living proof of that. Yeah.
Matt:But it was crazy actually because when I was doing my YouTube stuff, I was having to do I was having to battle against my old channel, which was also Matt Pocock. So So having to do SEO against myself
Dax:That's a
Matt:pretty neat career,
Dax:which is
Matt:bizarre. Yeah.
Adam:Could you, maybe throw in some, like, Scottish or Brooklyn accents into some TypeScript content?
Adam:That would
Adam:be amazing. You just merge the 2 worlds.
Matt:When I did more streaming, I used to, you know, just I don't know. Knock out a Liverpool accent or something while I was going. You know? I can still do this one. This one's locked in.
Matt:You know?
Adam:I guess
Matt:you you probably don't know this accent too much, do you? Because it's like
Dax:I've watched a lot of British media. So so I don't
Adam:know. What what was that one?
Matt:This is Liverpool.
Adam:Liverpool?
Adam:It's close
Matt:it's it's close to Ireland, actually. It's just over the over the Irish Sea. But,
Adam:okay. Mhmm. That's but is that in the UK? It's all the same to me,
Adam:I guess.
Adam:If it's British, it's just
Matt:to be careful. Island.
Adam:But it does sound different than your voice.
Matt:Thank you.
Adam:You know?
Dax:I don't know. I can definitely tell you're doing
Matt:something. Masters in this. That's all I get. It sounds different than your normal voice.
Dax:Wait. So how did you how did you learn all these accents? Do you, like, just, like,
Matt:watch TV and My history with it is, if you wanna go really deep, which is I started as, like, it was like my first job, basically, out of university, was I was my friend basically had a web business where he would sit on all these all these domain names, like singing lessons Belfast or singing lessons Mhmm. Exeter or whatever. And he said, right, I've got this domain that's like number 1 for this keyword. Do could you take some singing lessons? Because I I was a singer and I I sort of knew what I was doing.
Matt:But I'd never taught a singing lesson before. I never actually had a singing lesson before. Uh-huh. And so I just thought, oh, yeah. Okay.
Matt:I don't know how to give this a go. And I just fell in love with it, basically. I was so addicted. And that was straight out of university. I did that for 6 years.
Matt:And I was kind of you just I just learned it out of books. And when I got singing training myself and got I then did this master's at, Guilford School of Acting, which is like a proper drama school, which was a super weird experience. You know, you can imagine, like, the drama on tech Twitter is nothing compared to the
Adam:halls of an actual drama school. Yeah. It was quite a good
Matt:preparation, actually. Yeah. And then, actual drama school. Yeah. It was quite a good preparation actually.
Matt:Yeah. And then did a year of that, moved to London, and worked in some various drama schools and stuff. And then my way of getting into tech was actually like I was absolutely sick of London. I hated it. I wanted to, move back to the countryside, which which is kinda where I'm from.
Matt:And so I thought, what's a good skill that I can learn? I've got a bit of free time because I was teaching singing lessons. I had gaps in the day. What's a skill that I can learn that I can do from anywhere that will mean I can move to the countryside and still earn a decent wage, and that was tech.
Adam:And now here I am. Wow. It's, yeah, it's wild to think of you not being into like, you you talk about the the voice lessons and all that stuff. I've heard you talk about it, but I just assumed you kinda, like, did it on the side of your tech career. But this was
Dax:That was the home
Matt:that was my job. That was that was the dream. That was, like, you know, I wanted to be one of one of the best singing teachers in the world if I could and, like, make it happen. But you just had to live in London, really, because that's where all the drama schools are. That's where all the clients are.
Matt:That's where everything is. So, or New York or whatever, but, you know, I never wanna live in America.
Adam:Fair. Totally fair. How much how much is there, like, does it rhyme in terms of teaching all the things you used to teach and teaching TypeScript or other tech things? Does it feel like there's a lot in common there, or is it just totally different?
Matt:It's, feels completely similar. And it really felt like so I was an engineer for, you know, 5 years or so, before I moved into this, and which is not not a terribly long time. But when I started doing it, it just felt like, ah, I see all the pieces are coming together. I got this long kinda teaching background and then this sort of tech background and now, boom, altogether. Feels good.
Matt:Feels really good.
Dax:So your whole, tech career, that was fully remote then. So did you just, like, get a job and then just move out as soon as you could?
Matt:Well, I did a bit of I did quite a lot of startup hopping, basically. So I I my first job that I had was actually in person in Oxfordshire, which where I live, and that folded after about 5 months, through No Fault of My Own. I think the company just ran out of money, basically. And then I moved to an agency and was mostly remote and somewhere else that was mostly remote. So yeah.
Matt:And because I was working from home when I was a singing teacher as well, mostly. I've been working from home for, well, since, like, 2012 or something. Like, crazy. Yeah. I love it though.
Adam:It's wild to me. I'm still stuck on the whole, you just, like, grew in tech for 5 years. Like, that's encouraging for anybody that wants to be, like, the best at a thing because you're, like, the the TypeScript guy. Yeah. And I just assume, like, you're, like, the soccer players that were, like, born on the the soccer field that you, like, were born in the depths of TypeScript somehow, and you've been doing it for your entire life.
Adam:Like, the fact that I mean, Max, you've been doing TypeScript for 5 years, and you're, like, the TypeScript expert. That's pretty wild and encouraging. Yeah.
Matt:It's, it's odd for me. You know, it's not a position that I expected to find myself in. I think if you're good at communicating things, often I find that the best engineers out there are actually just the best communicators. You know what I mean? Mhmm.
Matt:The best at bringing people into their worldview, the best at writing PR descriptions, the best at kind of just smoothly communicating their code. You know? So it always felt quite linked to me in that in that way.
Dax:It's also funny that, the bar is also, like, pretty low. I mean, I'm not trying I'm not this is coming off as insult, but
Adam:From Dax? An insult?
Matt:I mean, it's coming off as
Dax:a genuine insult, but, like yeah. I think from what what I found is, I think people in our field are so especially bad at that stuff. So even if you're just slightly if you feel, like, any, like, slight amount of attention, it starts to
Adam:Yeah.
Dax:Really show up.
Matt:It felt like an astonishing advantage when I started being in tech. You know what I mean? I would be in these meetings and I often go to interviews as well that I had no business getting actually and would just walk it, you know, because I could actually just talk my way through a full sentence, you know, like Yeah. Yeah. Which is just not some not something that people tend to price, you know.
Matt:I think we have this idea of the 10 x engineer that just kind of sits and codes in their brain all day and then spurts out binary and then, like, that's that's our model for how like the the genius weirdo, you know, whereas I don't know. I I think you can be much more competitive by improving your communication. Absolutely.
Adam:I'm realizing I've I've had this belief as well, and I'm just not good at, like, articulating these things.
Dax:That's fine.
Adam:And anyone who any and
Dax:so you're Anyone
Adam:who listens to this podcast,
Adam:you're gonna
Adam:know, not the best communicator. But I have been really good at, like, like, sales in terms of software stuff. Like, when I was freelance, when I was doing consulting, I always felt like I could get on any call with a potential client and win that that work. Like, I would get some kind of working relationship with this person just from, like, getting on a call with them. So I don't know if that's communication or if it's something else, personality or I don't know.
Adam:There's something there that I've always felt like, I'm not that good at programming, but I seem to do pretty well at this one thing. So I do think it makes sense in my brain.
Dax:Mhmm. Yeah.
Matt:And I think most of what being a programmer is is not programming. You know? It's Yeah. It's all the stuff around the edges. And it's the stuff around the edges that's is where most of the value is, I think, not actually writing the code.
Dax:Yeah. It's, it's like it's both me and Adam, and it sounds like you also spend a lot of time, as consultants, just like on our own. And you all you often see a thread on Hacker News or somewhere where someone posts something like, hey, I'm interested in going freelance. How do I do this? And you can tell that it seems like such an impossible mystery to them.
Dax:Like, how do you possibly do this? And in all replies, people are actually talking about how difficult or, like, impossible it is kind of. But it's funny because if I look back on how I actually did it, it's like the stupidest, most straightforward thing ever. Like, you spend time, find one connection, do a good job, then find another connection, and then find another connection. And that first connection comes back to you a year later being like, hey, I remember you did a good job.
Dax:Let's, like, do more stuff together. Over time, if you build good relations with people, it just starts to compound. It's very, very straightforward, but I just see people when they talk about getting into it, it just seems like an impossible mystery.
Matt:And I imagine it feels quite insecure for people who haven't done it before as well. Full disclosure, I haven't done that much self employed stuff. I've mostly been employed and then doing courses, you know. But Yeah. I was self employed as a singing teacher for 60 years before that.
Matt:And it's all about, like, the amount of repeated streams of income and the more you have, the more they hedge against each other.
Dax:Yep. You
Matt:know? Because it often like, you're you're self employed. How can that possibly like, that must feel so insecure, you know, as like an income stream. But if you've got 7 different clients that you work for sporadically, if one goes, you know, you just find another one. It's Yeah.
Matt:I was It's the most secure kind of income I
Dax:think it is. I agree.
Adam:It really is. Yeah. I was just gonna say, it it always felt so hard to leave because I a couple times in my career, I've left, like, a stable, like, just get paid job and gone on my own. It's always so scary that, like, that first leap. And then once you do it, you realize it's actually the ceiling is just so much higher and you never end up making less than you did.
Adam:It's just like, it's better in all the ways, but it is scary Mhmm. Especially if you're it's your first time, I would imagine.
Matt:Yeah. I'm curious though because I I was self employed for 6 years and then I got a full time job, which was my first full time job I've ever had. 1st 9 to 5. And what I noticed was I would rock up in the morning and slowly over time, this little kind of ticking clock that was in my brain, it had been since I was 21, just disappeared. And it was like, I no longer need to think, like, I can take a holiday, and they will pay me for not doing any work.
Matt:You know what I mean? How amazing is that? And and that little that little anxiety just sort of went away, and I just felt free. And I think it's there again, you know, because I'm back self employed now. I think it's back there.
Matt:And but I can't tell, and I won't be able to tell until I get a full time job again. Yeah. Is is this something you guys feel?
Dax:A 100%. It's totally there. And I think it shows up in very practical ways where if you're, so if you're someone that bills by, like, the week or by the hour, whatever it is, so you wanna go on vacation. Okay. Your vacation costs $2,000.
Dax:And it also costs, like, the $5 you're gonna make that week. So it really just becomes, like even if you're not explicitly thinking about it, like, there's just friction to all of those things. Mhmm. So, yeah, definitely, it feels like something's always going. You're always, like, juggling.
Dax:There's a good juggler in your head, basically. That's what it feels like for me.
Adam:But but I've only had one of those real jobs that you mentioned. And I would say during that period, it was very, like, I went into it thinking, this is gonna be like vacation. I've never, like, just had a job where I just clock in, clock out, get paid. Mhmm.
Adam:But,
Adam:like, I still had all the side projects. I didn't actually drop all the other stuff. It's like I still tried to fit it all in, and it just got more stressful.
Dax:So I
Adam:think for some people, you just can't turn off that, like, itch to do your own thing. And if you try to work at a normal job, you just end up doing it all and it it sucks. That is how it works for me.
Matt:I would guess maybe that's like a once in a lifetime thing for me then because I was coming off being a singing teacher. And it's not like I could, you know, because I moved to a totally different place. Not like I could, like, do my singing teaching in London on the
Adam:side or something like that.
Matt:So I was just, oh, it was lovely though. I recommend it though. Just move to a different side of the world and, you know Yeah. There you go. Develop all your side projects.
Adam:Disconnect from everything. You have no idea.
Matt:That's great.
Adam:I guess when I had a baby, I think paternity leave both times, that was probably the only time in my career I felt really unplugged. You've just gone through that. Right, Matt?
Matt:So I yeah. My baby was, literally teething, like, 5, 15 minutes ago. He was just screaming in the house up there. And, yeah, he was born in January. And it's been surreal because because I because I sell courses now.
Matt:People will buy the courses whether I'm working or not, you know
Adam:Yeah.
Matt:Which is amazing. It's the closest I've felt. It's kind of like passive income, you know. And so for the last, like, 5 months or so, I've been working maybe 8 hours a week or something.
Adam:It's
Matt:been so good. Wow. So just hanging out with a baby. It's been
Adam:It's the dream, man.
Matt:It's been amazing. It's been amazing.
Adam:Is that your dream, Dax? You're not a normal human being. Is that your dream?
Dax:That does sound really nice.
Adam:It's not.
Dax:And I think no. No. No. No. I think it is.
Dax:I think that's, like, definitely what I'm working too, for sure. That's, like, what that's, like, what I it's a point of doing everything that I'm doing now, I think. Yeah. I don't know what it'll be like if I actually get that. Like, maybe I'll like it for a bit and I'll I'll go crazy.
Dax:But, I definitely need to be working, but I don't think it needs to be like, working on a baby seems like it would still count, you know? Working on a baby.
Matt:It is kind of like I like that way of saying it though because it does feel like that, you know? Yeah. When you're putting baby clothes on, it's sort of it's like
Dax:On the baby, not yourself.
Adam:Thank you.
Matt:Thank you. Because that's really appreciated.
Adam:I mean, we can see his hands. He was, like, gesturing that there was a baby he was putting them on. But when you think about the sentence, it is when you're putting baby clothes on.
Dax:When you're putting baby clothes,
Matt:you're you're doing something that has, the fruits of your labor are immediately apparent. Mhmm. You know what I mean? You're very connected to the outcome of your work, which is just often not something you get when you're coding, you know. Yeah.
Matt:Sort of do. You know, you get a nice little, dopamine feedback loop and stuff. But yeah. And and that's been that's been great. So I thought I would be like you, Dex.
Matt:I thought I'd be like feeling the fever to work all of the time. And I'm not. It's great.
Adam:Yeah. I wonder I've always wondered what my, like, time frame is. Like, at what point of having that kind of schedule where it's, like, actually way less stuff going on? Like, is it 6 months? Is it a year?
Adam:I do think there's some point on the horizon where I would start feeling like I need to do something.
Dax:You're maybe worse than I feel like this is more dangerous for you, feel, based on your personality.
Adam:Yeah. I'm kind of I'm a manic. Yeah. I'm I'm hypomanic or something. I get a little, like, nuts if I'm not outletting.
Adam:I don't know. But then I'll have weeks, like, Casey goes away for a week. She's at a volleyball camp right now. And when I'm full time dad, I feel like I can just channel my focus beam, like, that intense thing that I do into, like, being the best possible dad.
Adam:Mhmm.
Adam:And it's kinda fun. Like, it is like it's a type of work. It's like the baby. It's like it's not the same. It's totally different.
Adam:But it's there's all these ways you can min max it. And you can, like, do these things to get ahead of stuff. And you got the chores going. You got the kids going. You got everything.
Adam:It's like you can still kinda do it. It's interesting. In any area of life probably.
Matt:Yeah. Although, I think it it rewards your focus in that way. You know, it does actually reward the more you put into it, the more you get out of it in an odd way. Kind of just like coding. Just like work, in fact, you know.
Matt:It it rewards itself.
Adam:If we're not working towards slowing down at some point, then what are we doing? Like, it it I hope that that comes. It's awesome, Matt, that you've gotten there. Yeah. I don't know.
Adam:My wife doesn't believe it. She doesn't believe I'll ever slow down. But I'd like to think I will someday.
Dax:I think I think you have slowed down, like, 1% every year probably. So I
Adam:Yeah. I would imagine you
Dax:probably passed, like, the worst.
Matt:It's probably just like that's just getting old, though, isn't it? Right?
Adam:Yeah. Getting
Adam:Because Dax, you're younger. Yes. I don't even know, Matt, how old you are, I guess. I know Dax is, like, early 30s.
Dax:I'm 32. Not that young.
Matt:I'm 33?
Adam:So I am older. I'm just getting slow because I'm old. I'm 37. I'm gonna be 38 this year. Just a month or so.
Matt:Wow. Damn.
Adam:Jeez. Yeah. I know. Jeez. 6.
Matt:So you're born 1986. Is that right?
Adam:Yeah. 86.
Dax:That's right.
Matt:A stat today that, 1986 is the same distance apart from 2,024 as it is to 1938. Oh
Dax:my god. I I hate when people do that. I hate when people pull that train. Oh, so
Matt:I did.
Adam:It's, like,
Dax:it it's, like, to me, the seventies were 30 years ago. Always.
Adam:Yeah. I know. It's always gonna be 2000.
Dax:Yeah. Something years ago. It's like the my computer would be mind blowing.
Adam:Yeah. I guess not every generation gets that. Like, not every not every generation kinda goes over the millennium boundary or whatever.
Dax:Yeah. That I But I
Adam:feel like that's gotta be a phenomenon. Yeah.
Dax:Like, everything's oriented around that point in my head. Mhmm. Yeah. That is that is crazy. But, yeah.
Dax:So I I don't have any kids, but I think we probably were planning for that soon. Probably on a very similar timeline to you if you're a year older than me. But, yeah, we'll see. I don't think
Adam:Check back in a year. Yeah. Could you break the news on the podcast, please? Sorry. Continue.
Matt:Get me back here.
Adam:No pressure.
Dax:I'm just gonna be holding a baby while I have this on. No. That's right. That's actually what I wanna do. I wanna, like, not say anything at all and just completely drop it unannounced because
Adam:I don't think I give
Dax:off the vibe of someone that has would have children or, like, would be seen with a baby. So it'd be, like, very shocking for people.
Adam:I feel like you're a fatherly figure on tech Twitter. You're just talking down to us all.
Adam:I'm like a I'm
Dax:like an immigrant fatherly figure. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:So this is an important part of the Dax brand. It's like childless available.
Adam:Yeah. Available. Not available. No. No.
Dax:No. No. Well, you know.
Adam:Hopefully not. There's nothing tying
Matt:you down.
Adam:Just a dog and a wife.
Adam:And as
Dax:we've talked about before, you know, having a dog is exactly like a baby. It's it's exactly like Exactly. Basically, the exact same
Matt:thing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Dax:I can't wait to have a baby so that I can be like, k. Now that I have a baby, I can confirm it's the exact same thing, and then I'll just upset everyone. So
Matt:Yep. So easy. Yeah. So easy.
Adam:So What what do you do for fun, Matt? Oh, sorry. You're gonna ask an important question, and I'm oh, really? I just don't know much about you, like, as a person. You know?
Adam:Like If you live in
Dax:that country, do you farm? Is that what you do? I don't farm. No.
Matt:I don't it's not that country.
Dax:You know what I mean?
Matt:It's it's like a town. You know? Yeah. It's town.
Adam:Yeah. I guess where
Adam:I'm from. I grew
Dax:up in a small town. Place like that too. Yeah.
Adam:Like, how many people are we talking what is a small town in the countryside of the UK?
Matt:The town I grew up in was like 8,000 people, I think.
Adam:Okay. Yeah.
Matt:We're really This is a small, I think. There's like a 1000 people here, 500 people here. And then we're moving somewhere even smaller, actually.
Dax:Oh, really? Trying to get away as far as you can from everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. I'm all about that lash.
Adam:Yeah.
Matt:It's gonna be great, man. We're moving to this place where it's just like there's just beautiful walks all around. There's, like, some really rich people who just live up the hill. And so, like, the surrounding countryside basically can't be built on because it's gonna spoil their views.
Adam:Wow. Oh, nice. Very nice.
Matt:I can't wait.
Dax:So I I went to Europe for the first time in my life a couple weeks ago. But, like, what is it? So when you say you go and live in a house, is it like you have a backyard and a front yard? Or is it like like, what's, like, the situation? Do you have, like, a property?
Dax:Like, do you have a forest? Like, what's what's the deal?
Matt:No. We've got backyard, front yard. Of reasonable size. We don't like it's not like we have peasants or serfs or anything.
Dax:It's just like
Matt:it just got, you know, a bit of land, basically, a a plot. Okay. We don't have as much space as in the US, obviously. So, you know, comes it costs a pretty penny, as we say.
Dax:Oh, it's
Adam:just a big island. I didn't think about that. Yeah.
Dax:What do you
Adam:mean?
Matt:What you well, you guys are a big island, technically.
Dax:Well, yeah. I guess everything's a big island if you really think about it.
Adam:Yeah. There's water everywhere. But, like, I mean, you it's a it's a smaller island than the US. Right? Like, so space is premium, but there's countryside.
Adam:I mean, there's places where it's not super developed. Right?
Matt:That's true. But it's just like, there's just enough to squeeze into a postcard Okay. You know, for the brand. And then it's kind of just stuff, you know, apart from Scotland where it's just, you know, deserts, basically.
Dax:Yeah.
Matt:Or desolate. So
Dax:So how close in Scotland. Oh,
Adam:sorry. How
Dax:close is the next house? Oh, Wikipedia. Go ahead. How close is the next house to you? Like, are you are the house, like, right next to each other?
Dax:Or, like
Matt:Well, yeah. It's, like, semi detached. So it's, yeah, it's literally boom.
Dax:Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Miami is, like, very similar.
Dax:Like, I have a house with a front yard and a backyard, but it's obviously a city, not a lot of space. So Yeah. The houses are right next
Matt:to the city. Wow. Yeah.
Adam:Cool.
Dax:I was in New York for 10 years, and I moved to Miami 3 years ago.
Adam:Mhmm.
Dax:Yeah. Not not the country, really. More than a swamp.
Matt:The small.
Adam:I live in the country. The Ozarks are kind of like the country in America. Right? Mhmm.
Adam:It's
Adam:like the countryside. I sit on 2 acres. Yeah.
Matt:I watch the show.
Adam:Yeah. That's crazy. 2 acres. Kinds of room. You guys should move to the Ozark.
Adam:That's
Matt:my only, thing thing with the Ozarks. That's that's all I know about the Ozarks is money laundering and
Adam:Before that, yeah, before that show, nobody knew anything. I never said the Ozarks before that show because no one would know what that was. I've grown up in the Ozarks. I knew what it was. But then Jason Bateman put us on the map.
Adam:I get to say I'm from the Ozarks. And people are like, oh, drugs and stuff.
Matt:I'm like,
Adam:yeah, basically.
Matt:Cool. Okay.
Dax:Yeah. We we never let you finish. So
Adam:Oh, yeah. What do you do for fun?
Dax:So you move out to the country, and then you're not gonna farm.
Matt:I'm not gonna farm. No. I walk. I what the hell do I do for fun, man?
Adam:I know.
Dax:I have trouble answering this question too. Games.
Adam:Yeah. It's a tough one.
Dax:Oh, what?
Matt:I got into juggling randomly last year. Like Woah. Yeah. Because I wanted to do something with my hands that wasn't like coding or playing video games, you know, so I just, like, got into juggling. And now, every morning, sit my boy down for, like, 20 minutes and just start juggling.
Dax:Does he like it?
Matt:It's great. I've gotten really good, you know. Oh, he's back. I'm back. Yes.
Matt:Sorry. My wife my wife took my keys and then, just destroyed my Internet somehow with, like, her magnetic field or something something happened.
Adam:No joke. My wife, like, we've we're convinced she's got something with electricity. Like, she has fried so many watches in her life. Like, 3 different watches have died on her. I've never had my watch die.
Dax:I've never even heard
Adam:of that. Stopped working. Yeah. No. I'm serious.
Adam:And then there's other weird stuff that's happened where she, like, touched something in electronic, and it stopped working. I'm telling you, there's something there. We don't understand it
Dax:all yet.
Adam:I don't know.
Matt:There an X Man like that?
Adam:Maybe. She's an English. What a
Dax:what a useless power. The Buddha stopped time, but, like, not literally. Just like
Matt:Also, is that the singular of X Men, X Man? I suppose it is, isn't it? X Men.
Adam:Yeah. X Men. Right?
Adam:It's a
Dax:good question. Hi. I'm an X Men.
Matt:I'm an X Men.
Adam:Yeah. You wouldn't say I'm an X Men. No. That doesn't mean That means
Matt:the X Men. Like, I am part of
Dax:the X Men, I guess. Yeah. X Men. Well, I guess Oh, yeah.
Adam:Like, your business card would read X Man. Right? I mean Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. It's still a LinkedIn profile. Right? That's Wolverine Yeah.
Matt:And X Man. I was thinking like, I've felt this for a long time where I you know, when you say, like, I I I fit in somewhere or like like the past participle of fit is fit. Right? I think it should be fat, you know? When I joined the company, I'd fat in really well.
Dax:Like, sass. You know? Do you know
Matt:what it's like?
Adam:Oh. Oh, it's so good.
Dax:I I think Americans don't use sat as much as you guys do. What? Really?
Adam:No. No.
Dax:I say It's
Matt:like I said famous cultural difference. No.
Adam:No. No. No.
Dax:No. No. Here. Here. Here.
Dax:Of course, we'll say I sat on the bus. But I think you guys also use it in this other way where I can't think of an example.
Adam:Uh-huh. Like, there there's something where they say, like, I had a sit or something. Don't they? I don't know about that. Did I make that up?
Matt:I had a sit down. Is it you said that? I'll have a sit down.
Adam:I have a sit down? Yeah. Do
Adam:you say
Adam:that? We don't say that.
Matt:Yeah. We say that.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:Can I have a sit down?
Adam:Oh, yeah. We wouldn't we wouldn't say that.
Matt:Oh, really?
Adam:Okay. Wow.
Adam:But there's a time we don't say sat. That's what you're saying?
Dax:Struggling to think of an example.
Adam:But I've been struggling this whole conversation ever since Matt said past participle. I don't know what that is. I'm sure it's a real thing. But I grew up in the Ozarks, and I have no idea what that word means.
Dax:I grew up in the Ozarks, and I have no education. So
Adam:Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
Dax:That's an issue. Okay. Yeah.
Matt:But, yeah, I like juggling. I like juggling a lot. Yeah.
Adam:So was there a was it like a a months long learning curve, or do you just you just pick it up pretty quick?
Matt:Yeah. It's like
Adam:If I wanna learn to juggle
Matt:You wanna learn?
Adam:I said if I do, I don't. But if
Adam:I did,
Adam:do you know a couple months?
Adam:No. No. No. No.
Dax:It's not long. You can probably learn in a couple days. Like, it's Well, you
Matt:can you can It's
Dax:a bit Yay.
Matt:You can juggle?
Dax:Yeah. The basic the basic the this one? Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. I can I can do I can do 2 in one hand? I can do that for a little bit.
Matt:Very nice. They've got names, you know. There's the cascade. There's the reverse cascade. There's a built mess.
Matt:Built mess. The tornado.
Adam:I'm not making
Matt:it up. Terence. They've got names though. I
Adam:feel like the fact that you can learn it in 2 days though, kinda took some of the shine off a little of the mystique of juggling. I thought people who could juggle, it's like this crazy skill that they've learned over years.
Dax:It's it's not a binary thing. Like, I can do like you said, the cascade, I think, is probably what it is. And I can't probably can't do it as smooth as as Matt can, and there's probably a lot of other juggles and things you can juggle.
Adam:You couldn't, like, go, like, stand on a stage and do cool stuff that people would be entertained by. You're not there.
Dax:Yeah. I think I would start insulting people. That's mostly my talent.
Adam:I would
Dax:join for 30 seconds, and then I would just start insulting the crap.
Matt:Insulting people are not having children. That is the Dax brand.
Dax:No. Wait. To be clear, my brain is not that I'm one of those child free people. Because I find those people very, very annoying. And I wanna make sure that Yeah.
Dax:I'm well past the phase in my life where I thought that was a cool thing.
Matt:Mhmm. So Glorifying of lack of children. Yeah. Yeah. Not not part of the DAX brand.
Matt:Just incidentally not having children.
Dax:Yes. Yes.
Adam:Okay. I gotta ask, what what video games do you play? DAX plays video games.
Dax:I haven't in a while, but
Matt:So I'm an enormous football fan, soccer fan. So I've played probably, I think, about 3000 hours of various football manager games, you know, like
Dax:Oh, football manager. Yeah.
Matt:I love it, man. It's there's there's it it just sucks you in.
Adam:I've actually never heard that term, but I can imagine. Is it like you manage the team and you hire players and you do some of that? Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. My players choose to
Adam:do that. In American sports games where you can, like, manage the team, the franchise, or whatever, and you, like, manage them over years. But that's so fun.
Adam:But
Dax:football matches like a dedicated game where it's just that, and there's no, like Oh,
Adam:see that that's the problem with the other games. Like, if you play Madden, like I used to in college
Dax:actually play the football game.
Adam:Yeah. You you or you, like, sim the games, but then you lose something. It's kinda like less of a game. It's you lose something if you don't play the games. It's not quite as, like, first party.
Adam:Like, this is the point of the thing. So that's awesome. If there's a game that the whole point is just to be the manager, I
Matt:love that.
Adam:Are there even, like there aren't games. You don't have to play them. You just it's assumed. They're gonna all be simulated. Is that how it works?
Adam:Or or can you actually play the game? Like, you can actually, like, play the football game? No.
Dax:You can't.
Adam:No. You just Just the man.
Dax:You're just
Matt:on the side. Yeah. You're watching
Adam:That's the best.
Matt:Making subs. You're shouting onto the field. Yep. You're
Adam:Oh, wait. You're actually on the side of it. Like, on the sidewalk.
Matt:Like, you're the first person view or something.
Adam:But, like Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Dax:Okay. Looking down from above.
Adam:Got it. Yeah.
Matt:It's great.
Dax:Yeah. I know.
Adam:I've asked a lot of questions.
Dax:Like a star headset and the experience of just being on the side of a soccer match is just like
Matt:Also, I'm not joking, but I've played a lot of Euro Truck Simulator 2.
Dax:Oh, you're one of those people I see. Okay. I I made
Adam:it feel
Dax:you like the simulations. You like
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dax:Living another life.
Matt:I like I like lots of stuff, but, like, weirdly, yeah, I got I mean, I bought, like, a steering wheel for that.
Dax:You know what I mean? Yeah. I got one too.
Matt:Have you? Yeah. It's really weirdly addictive.
Adam:What is a Euro truck? You said a Euro truck. What is a American truck?
Dax:Truck simulator and then Euro Truck. It's not Euro Truck Simulator.
Adam:So it's a European truck, like a like a 18 wheeler. Like, you you drive across the country and deliver goods, but it's a simulator to do that. Really?
Dax:And it's really common.
Adam:What part are you simulating? Are you simulating the driver or the logistics people that are figuring out where to get stuff? You're the football manager watching the truck
Matt:going by.
Dax:Yeah. It's it's course full
Adam:circle balls. Exactly. Oh, yeah. No. You're a true
Matt:yeah.
Dax:That's great.
Matt:Yeah. You're driving. You know, it's got, like You're driving. Realistic rain simulation. You know?
Matt:You can
Adam:Wait a minute. You're telling me I'm
Dax:sorry. People literally There are
Adam:there are simulations for being a truck driver?
Dax:Yep.
Matt:It's like 5
Adam:That's a thing? Like 5 quid,
Matt:and it is so relaxing. It is like Yeah. The the best sense of relaxation.
Adam:And it's real, like sorry. I have so many questions. Is it like a flight simulator in the sense that it's real environments, like real highways, real
Matt:oh, it was real. Real ish, you know. Like, because you don't wanna be driving the shuttle, like, 8 hours at a time, you know. So it's like, oh, you made it to Yeah. I don't know.
Matt:It speeds
Adam:it up a little
Matt:bit. Whatever. Yeah. And there's, you know, get all this DLC where it expands the map of Europe and stuff and
Adam:Okay. This actually sounds
Adam:It's great.
Adam:I just when you think about it being like a truck driver simulator, it sounds less appealing. But then the more you describe it, I could see it being fun.
Dax:It would be
Adam:You're gonna
Adam:say that.
Dax:Crazy plot twist if eventually, they just connected you to real trucks, then you're just running real routes, and they just got just so they just got rid of having to have have to pay drivers if people wanna do it for free, as long as they can do it from their house. Yeah.
Matt:To be honest Yeah.
Dax:That is cool. I got I got super into so the reason I have a steering wheel is I got really into racing, like, to the point where I had the VR headset, the steering wheel, the force feedback, like, all of that stuff. And me and my friends would just spend hours every single day just racing the same track over and over, like, lap after lap after lap. And we'd be like, oh, man. Got down, like, 1 tenth of a second, and that was, like, a big accomplishment for Yeah.
Dax:And it's I feel, like, physical grooves in my brain around that track. Like, if I, like, go and play it again, I can I can, like, feel the turns? I can feel exactly what everything I mean, you did it so much.
Matt:That's awesome.
Dax:Got super into it. Yeah.
Matt:I love that kinda that's that's such a thing unique to video games is it kind of it retrains your brain in a certain way. You know what I mean? Like, you just respond to stimuli differently when you when you really log in and, like, that's great. I I admire that.
Dax:Totally escapes. Yeah. And even, even when I'm driving so my the thing I always say is everyone says that, oh, where I'm from has the craziest drivers, but, like, objectively, it is Miami. Like, anyone that comes here is always like, oh, okay. Never mind.
Dax:It's fine back home. Like, people here are insane. Yeah. So I'm always having to do, like, crazy maneuvers to dodge people, and I can feel, like, the training from the simulator, like, kinda kick in. Like, I'm, like, hitting the brake and turning the wheel in a certain way and, like Wow.
Dax:It's funny though because I'm like
Adam:Drifting. Crazy.
Dax:Well, race cars are funny because they don't have all this automatic stuff that normal cars do, so it's very easy to, like, spin out. But I'm, like, treating my car as though it's that sense if it's not. Like, it doesn't need me to be that that intentional about things. But yeah.
Matt:Even to Formula 1 decks?
Dax:Yeah. Super I haven't been super as into it in the last couple years, but there was a period of time where I was, like, obsessively following it. Yeah. And they opened up a Miami track in the last 2 years. I haven't gone yet, but I do plan to do that.
Matt:Yeah. I got into it in, a few years ago when Verstappen was racing Hamilton, and it was really, really exciting. And then Verstappen's just won every time. And I really hate that little rat boy. I just want him to lose all the time.
Dax:My thing okay. So here's my thing with Lewis Hamilton and and Mercedes. I would say for years, he was just crushing everyone. But do you remember that race when they put, who's it? He's a younger kid.
Dax:He was on another team, and they put him in a Mercedes car. Russell. One of the races. Yes. Was it was it Russell?
Dax:Yeah. And he, like, was doing insane. He did, like, so much better than he ever did before. And I was like, okay. So now I know how much of this is Lewis Hamilton and how much of it is is, like, the Mercedes team, which is obviously amazing.
Dax:Obviously, it's both, and there's, like, a crazy synergy and you know that if you, like, follow the sport. But, yeah, it was weird to see this guy that was pretty much always in last place every single race just to, like, rock it to it first. And I think in that race, it was something crazy. Like, as Carly hit a nail or something and he got a flat tire. And so that's why he ended
Adam:up not
Matt:It was bonkers. And then Sergio Perez came from, like, starting 20th to finishing 1st. Like, it was one of the craziest races of all time. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. But it's never that exciting. Like
Dax:Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. So the thing with f one is why I stopped watching it is it's a 2 hour or so race on, like, the actual race day, and you're sitting there watching, hoping you catch hoping that this race is the one where something really insane happens. But most races are very technical and consistent. It's like the people that started in first ended up in first because, like, it's a it's a formula, and everyone's, like, drilled it and, like, this guy always gets 1 tenth of a second faster on every lap.
Dax:So he ends up first. Like, it's always works out that way. But occasionally, you'll get, like, these 5 minute bursts of, like, the most exciting thing you've ever seen in your life. So you're chasing that all the time.
Matt:Yeah. It's built for highlights, basically. And there's often races where
Adam:there are
Matt:just no highlights. It's
Dax:it's absolutely insane.
Matt:How can you design a sport that's this boring? But sometimes sometimes, it's it's mildly exciting.
Dax:Yeah. Well, it's about the lifestyle also. Right? It's like, the classic one was, who's the who's the guy that always was with Hamilton? Who's his teammate?
Matt:Bottas.
Dax:Bottas. I think it was him where I think it was in Monaco. He crashed because he was out of the race, and he gets out of his car, walks off the track, keeps walking straight onto a yacht, and just sits there. What? Watch the rest of the race.
Dax:Yeah. He was just like he was like, I'm done with the race. He just walked right off onto, like, this yacht that was parked right there. So it's like a you know, it's like rich world sport. Yep.
Dax:You get it. You get the
Adam:It's rich rich NASCAR.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:Is what I'm gathering?
Dax:That's what it
Adam:is. NASCAR is like hillbillies Mhmm. And Midwestern United States. Formula 1 sounds like very rich people in Europe.
Dax:Yeah.
Adam:Is that accurate?
Dax:So someone joked about, like, yeah, we're we're all just watching a bunch of billionaires, like, race around a track for 2 hours, fly around a track in one's eye for 3 hours.
Matt:Billionaires in traffic, basically. Just going around
Dax:and around. Exactly.
Adam:God, that
Matt:is depressing.
Adam:I actually really I've wanted to get into f one. Same with European football. Like, these are things as an American, there's things I wish I had. I wish I'd used the metric system. I wish I was into football like the rest of the world.
Adam:And I've wanted to get into f one, but you guys are not making a great pitch. It's not sounding like a thing. Okay.
Dax:The best thing to watch is just the Netflix series because that, like, dramatizes everything.
Adam:Heard. Yeah.
Adam:I heard it's so good, and you'll get into
Adam:f one.
Matt:Spoke a mean to you.
Adam:Yeah. Okay. So I can just watch the Netflix part and then not get into the sport, and I get the best
Dax:of all of it. Okay. What's crazy is that, that Netflix series so f one as a sport has grown, like, insane ever since that series. Like, just that one that one decision to let a film crew in and do this, I think it, like, like, these teams are valued at a crazy amount now. People that invest in their teams at the right time have a crazy return that they're looking at.
Dax:But, yeah, just that's that one documentary was was super effective. So you should go watch it. Yeah.
Matt:Another thing that I'm kind of into or I'm sort of going out is chess. I really like chess.
Dax:Okay. I used
Matt:to play a little bit, like, actually in person locally as well, but I I kinda suck. And The Queen's Gambit
Adam:did exact Oh, I've watched The Queen's Gambit.
Matt:Exploded chess. Like, it sort of came at the same time as lockdown and chess is free to get into and you just play. And it has, like, this literally that's what they talk about. It's like an era before The Queen's Gambit and an era after The Queen's
Adam:Gambit.
Matt:Interesting. Just loaded.
Adam:Like like chess clubs and local, like, chess places that blew up in the
Matt:10th of that. Massive.
Dax:Yeah. I've seen that. Biggest things
Matt:on Twitch. Like, they have chess tournaments, like, for streamers on Twitch as well, like, Pogchamps or something. It's huge. Like, chess Interesting. Biggest chess YouTuber, Gotham chess, gets millions of views per video.
Matt:Like, crazy. Crazy.
Dax:It's actually just like Tech Twitter because I will peek into there every once in a while, and it'll be like, guy reacts to Gotham chess, and he's like, there's some drama, and they're like all pissed at each other and
Matt:Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was a guy there was a guy who was accused of cheating Yes.
Dax:I remember that whole thing. That was crazy.
Matt:Via, via anal beads.
Adam:Yes. I'm sorry. What now? Yes. I might need you to elaborate a little bit.
Matt:So when you go into a chess tournament, they obviously you can't have a phone because then you just look up the moves. You can't be communicated with in any way, so they search you. And this guy was supposedly getting hints, via vibrating anal beats that he had. Wow. Allegedly.
Adam:That is Allegedly. Next level.
Dax:Yeah. I know. Wait. Wasn't that like, Magnus Carlsen accused him of that, wasn't it?
Matt:I think he said something so Magnus Carlsen, biggest, one of the best chess players of all time. He said something like, you know, he he doesn't seem like he's playing like a human. You know, he seems like a human with, you know, some stuff going on.
Adam:Anal beads, of course.
Dax:I'm con I don't know about the anal beads thing, but I'm convinced that I could pull off cheating in one of those tournaments. I feel like it's if you are, like, committed to cheating, it doesn't seem that hard to sneak something in. Is it that hard? Like, do they make you play naked? Like, what?
Matt:It's actually it's really interesting because they actually can just feel when you're cheating.
Dax:Yeah. This is the yeah.
Adam:Well, I
Dax:mean, it would be suspicious if I just showed up and you started, like, wrecking people. But Yeah.
Adam:Yeah. I've never heard of you and you're beating everyone. Yeah.
Dax:Beatings. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. That's the American accent confusing us again. Not beating.
Dax:Beating. Not beating. Yeah.
Adam:Beating. We've said anal beads on this episode at least 6 times. That's 6 times more than any other episode.
Dax:It's coming up in the most innocent way possible in in reference to
Matt:Absolutely. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. Right.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dax:Didn't he also get banned from chest.com for other peating he'd done in the past? I
Matt:have no idea. Yeah. I can't I've I I sort of I came in at anal beads and left the anal beads. So
Adam:that was
Dax:my interest.
Matt:Pete.
Dax:Man.
Adam:Now I wanna get into chess. I everything you've described, I just wanna get into
Dax:it now.
Adam:I don't
Dax:know if you're smart enough. Very,
Adam:you have you're a good communicator, man.
Matt:Thank you.
Adam:You're selling me. You're selling me on chess.
Matt:Chess. It's great fun. I mean, it's it's very dangerous for me because I got into it when I was a singing teacher and I just, like, you know, you play, like, 5 minute games or something, you know, 5 minutes for you, 5 minutes for your opponent. I got into, like, 3 minute games as well. And I just, you know, stopped answering emails.
Matt:Basically, I just stopped functioning as a human being. And my business went like that.
Adam:And I
Matt:got I didn't even improve that much as well as the first one. I sacrificed ironically sacrificed so much time to it, and I just sort of got maybe a 5% better. It was it was horrendous.
Dax:That that's exactly my experience with, video games. Like, because Steam, when you, like, go to click to play an area of games, it shows you right there how many hours you've put into it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And there are certain games where the 100 and 100 and 100 of hours, and I'm, like, not really that good, really.
Dax:I'm, like, 10% better than where I was when I started. So
Matt:The Rocket League from the. Absolutely. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like everyone that plays video games is better than me. That's like my experience of playing any multiplayer.
Dax:I'm like, oh, I'm just literally the worst person in the world because they can't match you with a single person that I am better than.
Adam:But Yeah. My experience with games was always that I'm just so slow. And I thought it was just that I was, like, of the wrong generation or something. Like, is it the younger generation is just twitchier and faster and like, it but I guess it's card games too.
Adam:Any, like like, speed. Any
Adam:card game where you have to, like, slap really fast, I'm so slow. I have, like, terrible reactions. We we spending, like, so much
Adam:time on
Adam:my hobbies, but, like,
Matt:that is the actually the main thing that I'm into is board games.
Dax:Oh, really? I've been trying I I I wanted to start I wanted to, like, enter that.
Matt:Okay. Yeah. I'm your guy. Yeah. Like, I can help.
Adam:Do you, like, collect them as well? I knew someone would collect them.
Matt:Shelf of board games. Yeah. And actually, there's there's very spillover shelves in here as well. I like
Adam:What's your what's your favorite board game or your top 3?
Dax:Right now, I guess. I know it's always changing for the board game people.
Matt:It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't gotten to play that much in, like, the last 5 months or so for, Gotcha.
Matt:60 reasons. Yeah.
Adam:That life goes.
Matt:Cosmic Encounter, I think, has to be my favorite
Adam:board game. I've never heard of it.
Dax:What what is the pitch, the description?
Matt:It is, relatively simple. It's like poker in space. So you're bluffing, you're, trying to take over other people's planets. It's pretty simple. You're playing cards and and doing various things.
Matt:But there are a 100 different aliens that ship in the box, and everyone is a different alien race. And they all have powers that just completely break the game. So every single game is different. Oh, nice.
Dax:I love that.
Adam:Every game's different.
Matt:You know, there's a power where Really? One player maybe their ships just can't be killed. They are indestructible. And it's like, how the hell are we gonna get around that? You know
Adam:what I mean? And so
Matt:you gotta work together. You gotta negotiate. You gotta work out, okay, would you destroy them first and then then go to this person. Then it turns out that this person has some some hidden secret power where if, like, takes 10 turns and they just win the game automatically. You know what I mean?
Matt:It's just explosions of various stuff, and it's it's so much fun. So every single game is different.
Adam:What
Matt:was it called again? Cosmic? Cosmic Encounter.
Adam:Cosmic Encounter. So that sounds like that sounds incredible. It sounds like the best video the best board game I've ever heard of. If you ever, like to actually go to Target in America and, like, go look at the board games, there's never any good board games. It's like all the classics are at the top, and then all the new stuff is garbage.
Adam:I've never seen anything remotely interesting like that.
Dax:Yeah. I know.
Adam:This is
Dax:like a different world. So I have a friend here that is super into board games. He gave me this game called Castles. I don't know if
Adam:you've heard of
Dax:that one.
Matt:Castles?
Dax:I think it's just called Castles. Yeah. We we still get some Not
Matt:like Castles of Mad King Ludwig or something? No. No. I mean, that is actual ball game. That's not punchline even.
Dax:Oh, really? Of Mad King Ludwig. Okay. Is it this one? Yes.
Dax:It's this one.
Adam:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's the same one that I think
Dax:it's this
Adam:one. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. The the box.
Matt:I've never played it, but it's supposed to be really good.
Dax:Wait. Actually, it's right behind me.
Matt:One sec.
Adam:Oh, we're gonna get a little visual.
Adam:Yep. No.
Dax:No. I can't. It's it's under a bunch of other board games. But, yes, it is it is this one. We me and my wife still haven't played it, but he recommended it because it's good if you're, like, new to this stuff, and you it's fun even with just 2 people.
Dax:And I think that was my count. Like, a lot of traditional board games, like, they all suck with 2 people. They're, like, so boring.
Adam:Mhmm.
Dax:But this world, like, there's a lot of options for for things like that.
Adam:Yeah. I don't I don't have people to come play with me. So it would have to be good for
Matt:to Oh, really? People.
Adam:Like, if my oldest I've got a he's 8, is my oldest, and then 4. So 8 yeah. Could an 8 year old play cosmic encounter? Because this sounds so fun.
Matt:So I think, yes. I think yes, actually. Okay.
Adam:Probably not a 4 year old.
Dax:No.
Adam:He'd he'd probably have to resort to cheating. Yeah. Not in the way that we've talked about
Adam:on this
Dax:episode. I was not
Adam:not gonna make that joke.
Dax:Not about my 4 year old. Nope. Just gonna move
Adam:right past that one.
Adam:So this
Matt:episode's got a lovely kinda cyclical nature.
Dax:So we're just
Matt:labeling down towards the same two words
Dax:again and again. He's busy.
Adam:Okay. So where do you get the good board games? Where do you find these? Because they're not at Target.
Matt:Yeah. I mean, there's a board game cafe in in Oxford that I go to, that my friend works at. Actually, all works at different. But, yeah, they've just got, you know, 100 of these things. They're great.
Matt:Okay.
Adam:Yeah. We I'm just gonna buy them online.
Dax:That's why I was like, they don't have something up there. Because
Adam:they're looking up
Dax:there. Yeah.
Adam:I was
Dax:actually they have my house and the grocery store, and that's that's basically it. My house. The stuff's not already in the house. It's it's not there.
Adam:Boardgamegeek.com. Do you guys visit this? Is this your home page? This is
Matt:a very well respected a well respected writer. Yep.
Adam:Yeah. It was number 1 on Google when I searched for cosmic encounters, so I get the sense.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. I've seen my friend's collection, and he's got so many. And some of them, like, take an hour to set up and, like, so complex. And once it's set up, you have to, like, play it over the course of, like, weeks even, and you can't, like, touch it or mess it up.
Dax:Jeez. It's cool.
Adam:How many like, do you have friends that just come over, Matt? Like, how do you play board games typically? Do you have, like, a board game night?
Matt:Yeah. I have a couple of game nights I go to. I've my I was looking to set up like a JavaScript meetup with this guy, called Pete who lives locally. And, we just sort of gave that up and start playing board games
Dax:instead. Yes. JavaScript is boring. JavaScript is going to play.
Matt:Yeah. So, yeah, let's do that instead. And it's, you know, way more fun. And, yeah. Yeah.
Matt:So I've got some board game dads to hang out with as well. You know? Like, it's great. Great way to meet people, honestly.
Adam:That's awesome.
Dax:That is cool. Yeah. Alright. So I'm gonna switch topics a little bit just because now let's talk about let's talk about JavaScript, I guess. Yeah.
Dax:I'm not sure. Alright. Yes. So what are you working on these days? So I know you had your big course, which was seems very successful.
Dax:Are you working on, like, more stuff related to that? Like, what is, what's occupying your your time?
Matt:So since August last year, I've been working on 2 things that are linked. I've been writing a book, and Oh, wow. That book is now with the publishers. So it's, being published through No Starch, and it's kind of being done in the No Starch style. It's sort of part of their range, and it's gonna link in with, a new course that I'm building as well, which is basically like if you think of total TypeScript's my course, it's kind of not really total.
Matt:And I mean, it's kind of like, intermediate and up, up, up, up. I mean, I haven't really tackled the beginner y stuff all the way up to intermediate and that sort of area. Yeah.
Adam:So you made stuff for DAX. You haven't made anything for
Matt:me yet. Exactly.
Adam:I need the I need the beginning.
Matt:Basics. Yeah.
Adam:The very early early beginning.
Adam:Yeah.
Matt:I haven't done that because it's really hard. It's really hard to teach that stuff in a way that I like to teach it, which is in, an exciting way. You know? I like to actually find the nuggets of good information and pull them out and hone in on those and kind of fix it in people's brains in a really good way. Like, this is techniques that I learned from singing teaching.
Matt:You know what I mean? If you just tell someone do it, then they do it. But if you tell someone it in a metaphorical way where it makes sense and the organ information is organized correctly and they're having challenges that they go along the way. So it has taken I think there's, like, 400 videos on it, like, 200 exercises, like, it's nuts. Yeah.
Matt:Oh my god. Huge thing Wow. That I've been planning and recording. I'm also doing workshops on, so I've been doing live workshops at a couple of companies, to kinda test the material out and stuff. It has been a huge amount of work.
Matt:And then Baby came along as well. So it's been sort of slowly growing since January. And so that, I think, is gonna come out, in June. Like, it's gonna come out pretty soon. Wow.
Matt:And it's going to be despite all this work, it's gonna be, I think, about a third of the price of Total Timescript. So it's gonna be priced at kinda beginner intermediate level.
Dax:Yeah. So they're gonna buy for themselves. Yeah. That makes sense.
Matt:And and I'm trying to make it so that it's like because I think with Total TypeScript as it is currently, a team will look at that and they'll go, well, it looks a bit advanced. You know what I mean? It like, are my engineers really gonna benefit from this? You know, it's obviously expensive, obviously worth the money, but, like, it's advanced. I kinda wanna just make a no brainer course.
Matt:Like, the Right. A a company can buy, you know, like, 50 off or something and just go, bam, train all your engineers and just have it. And that's that's it. So that's what I've been working on for, 10 months. Yeah.
Matt:Wow. Crazy.
Dax:The question I have is so I think there's this interesting dynamic that exists now, which is you presume that a beginner is entering like, they know programming, but like dynamic languages and learning a typed language is like a next step thing that you do and people perceive it in that order. And I think that makes sense. I think that is true. A lot of people, they do follow that path, but to the point where people describe it as like, oh, it's like too challenging to learn both at the same time if you're new to programming. But then I think back to my own journey and like like I started with C Sharp, which is a typed language and TypeScript effectively is exactly like C Sharp.
Dax:And, yeah, it's not like I understood all the deep type stuff till later, but it also didn't get that much in my way. Like, I like, I've still got to learn programming. It wasn't didn't like I don't remember it being that much of a hassle to learn and learn about types. Is your course targeting, like, someone new to programming? Someone that knows programming but doesn't like, what how how do you think about all that?
Matt:If you look at, like, TypeScript's documentation, it's targeted at people who already know JavaScript, basically. Mhmm.
Adam:You know
Matt:what I mean? It's not really for new programmers. And I don't think TypeScript is because TypeScript is JavaScript.
Adam:You know
Matt:what I mean? Like, every design decision that has been made by TypeScript is made because it compiles to JavaScript. That's the reason. That's the reason it exists. And so, in my course, I just assume people know JavaScript to a decent level.
Matt:And that I think is like a decent assumption. It's not always paid off that well in the live workshops because some people, like like, who come to the live workshops have only done Python. You know what I mean? I've had a
Dax:couple of people like that.
Matt:And it's structured in such a way where, you know, like, they they get a sense of what the JavaScript does, but actually it's mostly just teaching the types. And that I think is where the industry is right now. It's like a lot of people know JavaScript and a lot of people that know it a bit and just need to be moved over to TypeScript join the TypeScript revolution. You know? Yeah.
Matt:So that's where it is.
Dax:Yeah. So, like, there's specific cases I think about because my wife, has been learning programming. She's not new to building software. She's done everything besides the actual programming part. So she's coming with some context.
Dax:But there were specific things So we tried going that route where we're like, okay, learn JavaScript first. Like, let's ignore the types stuff for now. But there were certain concepts that were actually made easier with types. So I was trying to explain to her what function arguments were.
Adam:Like, now
Dax:here's a function sum. It was way easier for me to use the TypeScript version of that where it said a colon number because that, like, clicked for her bar. She was like, oh, this is an argument that always has to be a number. Of course, that's some function you always pass in numbers.
Matt:Yeah.
Dax:So that one, that specific case, I was like, oh, yeah. It's maybe, like, even better to have a statically typed language even for a beginner. And then 2, obviously all the, when she went off to do something on her own, doing TypeScript gave her way more hints in the editor. And I found that to be like we didn't have the LSP set up initially. And then when I turned it on, she basically was getting all this feedback, and that, like, helped her massively also.
Matt:Yeah. That's fascinating to me. That because that is something I've been turning over in my head for a while, really, like, since I've started doing this course. It's part of me is thinking, what if what if this was targeted at new programmers? What would that look like?
Matt:And probably TypeScript will get to a point at some point where it just doesn't make sense to learn JavaScript first because you're not gonna get actual JavaScript jobs. They're mostly 95% can be TypeScript jobs, you know.
Dax:Yeah.
Matt:So you're probably right. Like, there's this kind of the IDE just feels so much more powerful. You're getting all these hints. It's really nice. Like, I I was teaching my friend how to code and we did a bit of CSS And, you know you know, she was kinda like piecing it together, seeing, you know, how it works and go, okay, I get I get how it works.
Matt:And the next day or the next time we met up, we did Tailwind. And she was like, why didn't you just teach me this? You know? It's so much more powerful.
Dax:It's just, you know,
Matt:I get auto complete
Adam:on all
Matt:the stuff I want. You know, I should go bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. What the hell are we doing here last week? Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. And it's funny because, again, if you go back to my experience when I was in c, I had all that. Like, I had I was using Visual Studio, which was, like, a fantastic IDE with all this stuff built into it. It even, like, rewrote my code for me when it was inefficient. Like, it just was super useful.
Dax:So, yeah, we were looking for, k, what's the best way, what's the best course, what's the best resource you can start with, and everything was very JavaScript focused. And I don't know, just, like, trying to get her up to speed as fast as possible in both, it just felt like might as well I wish there was just something that, you know, was just committed TypeScript from the beginning. No.
Matt:I I just don't think it exists, actually. I don't think there is something like that, and it's something I have thought about, maybe made resources for or thought about making it. Currently, there's not a kind of economic incentive for me to do that. Like, my stuff is not for beginners. You know what I mean?
Matt:I do have a beginners course. Yeah. But, like, that's beginners are not where the money is in terms of people who, like Yeah. I don't like asking beginners for money, you know. Like, I wanna ask people who have got a job, you know, that kind of thing.
Matt:There's definitely gotta be something there. Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. Just our EI because we looked and, obviously, stuff in that category is could be free. Like, there's typically free resources. But, yeah, like, there was a lot of really great stuff, but no one really committed to TypeScript yet. Yeah.
Dax:That's cool. Well, maybe, you know, maybe
Matt:I'll have a bit of free time after this, course launches and I can do something else. You know? That's gonna be great finishing a massive piece of work and then just
Adam:Oh, man. No kidding. 10 months. That's that's a huge sigh. You're gonna you're getting ready to close the world's most amount of browser tabs
Dax:that have ever been closed
Adam:at once, I'm guessing. Yeah. Some baby tabs mixed in there, like changing diapers.
Dax:I close my tabs every every 5 minutes. Like, it's I don't know what you're talking about.
Matt:I I think I might be pretty much unique in that I basically only have one browser tab open at a time. Yeah.
Dax:See. Exactly. There you go. Yeah. What?
Adam:You guys are crazy. Well, I am
Dax:in anything. How do you find anything when you You don't.
Adam:You just leave them all open, and then eventually, you close them. Man.
Dax:But I'm like, it's awful.
Matt:You were that guy in the student house that would never tidy up his, like you know, you would never chew the stuff after you cook.
Adam:No. That's true.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. I I am very messy. Not very messy. I am extremely organized and precise in my digital world, but, like, my physical world is nothing like that.
Dax:It's
Adam:I'm actually the opposite. I'm actually pretty physically organized. And my digital like, my downloads folder is an infinitely growing cesspool of everything I ever download, and I never touch it. I never delete anything. Yeah.
Dax:That's funny.
Adam:Inbox Infinity, the whole thing. I just I'm pretty digitally unkempt.
Dax:The, the other question I had was, you said you're writing a book. I was always curious about the economics of a book because so as a consumer, I've never bought a course. I've bought plenty of books, mostly when I am trying to get into a completely new topic and I just need to go as deep as possible. I'll just buy the book and read it. And now I have, like, basic coverage of it.
Dax:But books are so cheap and they seem really hard to produce. So do people make any money off of books? Like, how does that all work?
Matt:I kind of buried the lead on on what I was saying before because actually we are giving the book away for free.
Dax:Oh, I see. Okay. It's
Matt:I mean, it is we're we do have a print version. This yeah. I mean, people do make money off books, you know. Like, these are these are textbook sized things. These are like, retailing for a decent price.
Matt:And, obviously, as soon as you've made the book, like, I think one of No Starch's biggest sellers is just a, basically a book version of the Rust open source documentation.
Adam:Right.
Matt:That's one of the biggest sellers. And people just like it because they just like the feel of it and they like it's almost like an aspirational thing. You know what I mean? Like, they buy the book and they think, right, if I just set the book over there, the knowledge will just travel over here.
Dax:But it
Matt:is it's a nice experience, you know, reading a book
Dax:and taking your pencil
Matt:to it.
Dax:I like books. I'm like, oh, I have a whole stack of programming books there.
Matt:I think developers just have enough money that, you know, they can they can justify buying or having a whole industry that's just taking information on the Internet and putting it in paper, putting it on dead trees, and then shipping it.
Dax:But do you feel like the book that you wrote, does that feel like the same amount of work for an equivalent course? Or was it more work, less work?
Matt:I finished the course, quite a while ago, actually. And then writing the book has taken a lot longer. I think probably I had the baby at a time that meant that writing the book was and I I tend to find recording videos a lot faster than writing. Just a lot, lot, lot. Because I've got this public speaking background, I can do it very, very fast.
Matt:And writing takes a lot longer. It's still relatively fast, but I don't know. You probably feel the same.
Dax:I feel the same way. I feel like if I'm gonna spend a 100 hours, I could like, equivalent of course versus writing, I feel like a course I could definitely get out. Writing seems a lot more challenging. Yeah. That's that's what makes me one of them.
Dax:And the courses make so much more or at least it costs so much more per whatever. So, yeah, that like, once I once that clicked for me, I was like, how does anyone, like, why does anyone even write a book when they could just make a course that, you know, that was more for less effort.
Matt:The reason why we wanted to do it was, first of all, it's like, it's cool to have a book. You know what I mean? It's it's Yeah.
Dax:It's cool.
Matt:Some people just want the book. And, like, it means we can offer something that's a different price point from the courses. Mhmm. You know, like, obviously, we've we're gonna have now, like, free book, free linked book, you know Yeah. Which is gonna be so cool.
Matt:Great for SEO and stuff. Great for inbound stuff. People are gonna share this all over the place. It's gonna be awesome. Then we've got book, you know, however much they sell it for.
Matt:And that's gonna be that's gonna be on that's gonna be available in places that's, are not digital, you know. It's gonna be like people will stumble upon that. People will see that on shelves and think, oh, that's interesting. I wonder what that is. Look it up online.
Matt:Maybe find the course. You know? It sort of seeds itself. And then we've got mid price course and then high price course. That's the kind of offering now.
Matt:And so that's the rationale for the book, I think.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even for us, like, our company SST, the first thing we ever built was a book, actually, a free book
Adam:on
Dax:how to build service applications. And over the years, that has gotten crazy SEO to this day. Like, we still get a crazy amount of traffic just from that. And, like, we, like, we haven't really updated it as much as it should be. And then now there's, like, real companies where when we see their code base, we're like, oh, you just took what was in the book, and now it's like a company and a code base with people that work there.
Dax:So, yeah, it is wild to see that given enough time you you watch that whole whole funnel happen. It's slow, but, yeah, I totally see why how that works.
Matt:It really pays off. And and the the Internet is built on text.
Adam:You know
Matt:what I mean? Like, Yeah. Eventually, you're gonna need text in your portfolio of offerings that you have, you know, emails and and blah blah blah blah blah. And it's hard to produce, so I find it a lot harder, but, yeah, you gotta you gotta have it.
Dax:Well, Adam's just dipping a toe in this world now. So
Adam:Just a tiny little toe. I'm just dipping. I'm not at 400 videos. Man, every time I hear, like, you or Kent talk about just cranked out 400 videos for the next thing, I'm like, oh my gosh.
Adam:I have
Adam:so much ahead of me, and I'm going too slow. Like, I'm
Matt:You're doing you're doing a course?
Adam:Yeah. I'm doing a pro AWS. I'm working with Joel. I'm doing the whole team. I'm doing the whole thing.
Adam:I'm just at the very, very, very beginning
Matt:of that journey. Happy to offer any advice that I can, like, or or, like
Adam:I I could just sit here and pepper do the entire podcast, but I didn't wanna do that for everyone that listens. I might DM you, though. The, the you've you've tread you've walked the path that I would like to go. I thoroughly enjoy teaching so far. It's been fantastic.
Adam:I've done one live workshop, and I've absolutely loved it. So I I hope Oh, you're you're going
Matt:the you're doing the journey. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam:I'm doing it. Yeah. We'll see. But, man, lot lot of videos ahead. Yeah.
Adam:The 400, that's a lot.
Matt:Every video, literally, if it's like a 5 minute video, it takes, like, 7 minutes to record. You know what I mean? It's basically just me, Wow. Reacting to code samples, talking through stuff, like, mostly it's like I have this setup, if you've ever done any of my courses where set up a problem and then show my solution. And talking about the problem, it's literally just talking about code.
Matt:You know what I mean? So I just hit record, hit on record. I've got a script that automatically cuts the silence off the start and end of the videos Yep. And then saves it in the right folder and back. Yeah.
Adam:I've actually seen I think I've read the whole case study that they put on Nice. Badass Dev. I've read your like, I've I've read your process. So I I maybe have fewer questions than you'd be than they would expect because I've kinda, like, poured over the material. It takes me currently, I'm not taking your advice because it takes me about, 35 minutes to make 5 minutes
Dax:of video. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam:Like, I'm so slow.
Adam:People really
Adam:I've gotta, like, get over that.
Matt:Like fewer cuts, actually. That's what I've learned is people really like it just
Dax:Yeah.
Adam:Just like say the same thing.
Matt:Thing. It's like they're, you know Yeah. Pair programming with you. You know? It's like you're just on a course with that, and and it feels more natural, I think.
Matt:And people really dig that. And people can just speed up your voice as well, you know. Like, a lot of people, I think, just do the course on 1.5 or whatever. Yeah. Yep.
Matt:Oh, that's great.
Adam:Yeah. No. I'm excited. It's, I mean, Joel's great. Like, having that crew, just the way they think about this stuff and they've gone down this path so many times that they just kinda can tell me what to do, sort of.
Adam:I mean, they say they're not your boss, but, like, I need somebody to tell me, like, this is what you should do next. And that's so helpful to me because if I did it on my own, it would take me even longer than it's already taken.
Dax:For people
Matt:at home, that's badass.dev. They've got maybe one of the nicest landing pages I think I've ever seen.
Adam:Yes. It's so nice.
Matt:And, like, I've never been to Joel's house, but I think the landing page was basically inspired by his desk. Yeah. Like, it's
Adam:I've seen the pictures. Yeah. Office.
Matt:Insane level of mini hacks and weird stuff and, like Yeah. Just loads of weird stuff. And, yeah, I think I've I just felt like a I felt like a passenger in a Formula 1 car.
Adam:You know
Matt:what I mean? Like, they were just driving Yeah. To go back to a Yeah. Previous thing.
Adam:We go back to the anal beads? Is there any way
Dax:we could pull that back?
Matt:I'm hoping
Adam:we could. We could. That back in.
Matt:I thought you'd get that signal, and we would circle back to it. And that would be the end of the podcast. Yeah.
Dax:And like Fadass.dev. It's like being in a formula car with anal beads at the same time.
Adam:With anal beads that vibrate.
Matt:Yeah. That's it.
Adam:You get the grooves in
Matt:your mind, you know, you put the VR headset on, and you're just locked in. Is that part of the setup? I don't know. Oh.
Adam:Matt, thank you so much for coming on. This was so good.
Matt:I just I I had a great punch line, which only Dax would get, which is like force feedback. But, you know.
Dax:Oh, there we go.
Adam:I don't get that.
Dax:I don't get that.
Matt:You're right.
Dax:At least you don't have that in the Ozarks. Yeah.
Adam:Oh, it's
Matt:great talking to you guys.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. Great to have you. Cool. Alright.
Dax:Well, yeah. Anything else to say, to plug?
Matt:Oh, you let me plug beautifully. Thank you so much. And, yeah. Plug.
Dax:If you're interested in TypeScript
Adam:I guess the new course. Yeah. Total typescript.com Yeah. It's gonna all the new stuff will be there.
Matt:Is that right? Typescript.com. There's I mean, I've written maybe 60, 70 articles on there. Free tutorials on there. I'm gonna be doing a lot more stuff on the newsletter as well and doing less on socials, more on the newsletter.
Matt:So, yeah, that's the place. Cool.
Dax:Alright. Thanks again. We don't really have a
Adam:way to get off there. We just we say bye. Bye. Alright. Thanks for coming.
Adam:Bye.
Matt:Bye.
Adam:Alright. Thank you. Bye. I'm sorry. What now?
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