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Is AI Just 5 Crypto Bros in a Trenchcoat?

/ 01:47:03/E87
Dax:

For those of you that are just dying with anticipation from all the teasing we've been doing There's

Adam:

probably whole subreddits about this, the mystery project.

Dax:

People are through the types of work. Yeah. If you wanna hack my email. Your wait will end. Your misery will end, because we will be announcing what it is on the 1st day of Damn, I look freaking yellow.

Dax:

Something is wrong with my white balance.

Adam:

My monitor is not very good. Like the one that I actually see you on, my teleprompter.

Dax:

But your actual monitor is probably very good.

Adam:

Oh, yeah. It's really good. But this teleprompter one, I don't know. The colors, everything just seemed kind of off. So I can't really tell.

Adam:

You can

Adam:

get away with anything.

Dax:

Do you have the, Apple display?

Adam:

Yes. The embarrassingly expensive one, yes. And I bought the stand. Everyone always asks, did you buy the $1,000? And yes, I did.

Adam:

I have the stand.

Dax:

Do you think that's gonna last you, like so I've considered getting that a bunch and the thing that always stops me is I can't something in the back of my head is like, okay, like how long of a purchase is this? Like, am I gonna have this for 5 plus years? Like, I would easily do it. But part of me is like, is it gonna last that long?

Adam:

I guess I've had it a couple years, 2 years maybe. I don't I don't know why it wouldn't. I guess I don't know what it would what what goes out on the monitor? Does the backlight go out

Dax:

or something? Monitor would break. I'm saying, like, am I gonna want is something better gonna show up? Am I gonna want, like, a different form factor? Am I gonna

Adam:

Gotcha. Apple Vision Pro. That that whole thing.

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly.

Adam:

Remember Apple Vision Pro? Yeah. Yeah. I guess something could change, but, yeah, I don't know. When you spend this much on my monitor, I just can't imagine ever not using it now.

Adam:

It just looks cool. The back of it's, like, all honeycomb.

Dax:

Yeah. That is cool. Liz really likes it. But in my head, I'm like, she can't have a better monitor than me. Like, what

Adam:

the hell?

Dax:

I'm the one that's into computers. It feels wrong for

Adam:

having a

Dax:

more expensive monitor than me.

Adam:

Liz has been doing some some work. I've been seeing her her progress.

Dax:

Yeah. It looks really good. Right? Like, this is what she's working on.

Adam:

Yeah. It's the financial thing you're working on. Right?

Dax:

Yeah. I've been very inconsistent about how secretive I am. But, yeah, it's coming out nice, and she's she's been doing just entirely front end stuff. And

Adam:

That's the way.

Dax:

Yeah. It's great. I feel like every week, she does

Adam:

Starter on the front end. Take that off your plate.

Dax:

Which means I don't have to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I set up I mean, it there's just it's such like a nice symbiosis because when you're starting out, you really need something that's you can see and, like, touch.

Adam:

Yeah. So

Dax:

I think front end makes sense for people to start at. And also, like, I don't I don't wanna do it. So

Adam:

Also, I don't wanna do it. That's my theory that we start people in the industry on the front end because nobody wants to do front end. That that's I I know, like, the whole, like, you get feedback and, like, oh, you can see We

Dax:

we make up all these reasons.

Adam:

Yeah. But I honestly, like, can't you get all that feedback in a CLI or something else? I

Dax:

don't know. That's true.

Adam:

Yeah. It is funny though. I've I've talked about this before, I think, on the stream. Like, I think the most complicated stuff I've approached in software development is front end stuff. Like, you get into the layers involved in a modern front end.

Adam:

And like for people new to the industry that are just getting started and they're like, they just learned how to do hello world and JavaScript or something. And then they're like, here, here's React and Babble and whatever and all these other things that do things I don't even understand. I've been doing this 15 years. Oh, and you need to also learn how to style stuff, and Yeah. And then JavaScript runs in the browser, also on your server.

Adam:

Well, not really the server. It's the server for the front end it's the back end for the front end. It's not really the back end. Like, I can't imagine anything more complicated than, like, being thrown into a modern front end and being like, hey, get your feet wet in in computer science. Here you go.

Dax:

Yeah. And I think I I kind of experienced some of that because I was trying to teach her everything. And just to give a sense of this, when I say teach everything, I mean, everything you just said plus basic ideas like this is your terminal. This is your code editor. This is, like, you know, all that stuff.

Dax:

So It's how to use

Adam:

our tools.

Dax:

Yeah. You're gonna laugh. So, she's using Neovin. So I'm just like, if I'm gonna do if I'm if we're gonna just, like, go completely from scratch, like, might as well just get

Adam:

Start on Neovin. Yeah. Get it

Adam:

all out

Adam:

of the way.

Dax:

Not only is she using that, I was like, I don't want her setup to deviate from mine at all because there's just crazy synergy where I can just jump on her computer and just, like, do server number. So she also has a server now that she SSH into,

Adam:

and

Dax:

she has a TMUX session running. So she's she's learning she's learned TMUX. Oh my word. How to use NeoVim inside there. It's been great because when I need to help her, I can just SSH to the same server and attach Yeah.

Dax:

To the same TMUX thing, and it's like a collaborative thing built in.

Adam:

Wait. So so 2 people can be attached to the same TMUX session? I didn't know that. Like, multiple clients, and it works.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

So, like, if you type, does she automatically see it?

Dax:

Yep. It's like a screen share, basically. But it's like Wow. It's like low bandwidth screen share.

Adam:

How have we not in this remote post COVID world, how have we not just embraced this as, like, the best way ever to, like, pair program?

Dax:

Well, yeah. And people have brought I've seen this set up a while ago. Like, people have mentioned it. That's why I thought to do it. But it's one of those cases where how often can you mandate such a strict setup for everyone on your team?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess they see that. I'm surprised there's not like a SaaS service that's come out that's just built on top of TMUX and basically gives you this, like, multiplayer programming environment.

Dax:

I think I think there's Versus Code server now, which is kinda that. Right? I think the actual editor runs in the server, and then your front end, which is still Versus Code, the UI is still rendering on your side. I think it connects to the server somehow and, like yeah. I was looking into that because I was like, if I do need to one day use Versus Code, can I still get the server client set up and and then they do support it?

Dax:

So, interesting. So yeah. So there's all of that. And that stuff, I would say, is complicated, but it all makes sense. Like, it's Yeah.

Dax:

Like, well designed, old, tested stuff. Yeah. Makes sense. Then I was trying to get her to, like, understand our application. And, yeah, there's just, like, so many layers there.

Dax:

And it was actually great because I was working on SST iron at the same time, and I was teaching her how to, like, bring all this stuff up. And my bar for how simple we had to make things just went, like, crazy high because I was like, I can't really explain why you do certain things. I just couldn't find the words to explain. You need to run SST dev, and you need to run SST dev with your front end. And I could not explain really to someone that doesn't really know anything, like, what that meant.

Dax:

Like, what was the first one doing versus the second one? So there's all these little things that just got simplified to that process.

Adam:

So SST Ion. So simple your spouse could use it.

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly.

Adam:

Your nontechnical spouse.

Dax:

And then so I think her process and learning worked out really well. So she learned pure HTML CSS stuff first.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

Then I dropped her into our solid code base, but she just works on making I taught her how, like because we use CSS and JS stuff. So I taught her how the stuff she learned, how it, like, maps over, and that was pretty easy. So she just works on building components, composing them together. And now and she's all the stuff she's posted, she's posted without knowing any JavaScript. So now she's, like, learning the JavaScript stuff.

Adam:

Yeah. It's a good point. I guess you can get pretty far before you have to really start messing with the interactivity bits.

Dax:

Yep. Exactly. So she would make, like, these scratch components and I would like wire them up correctly, which took me, like, you know, 10 minutes usually once the UI is fully done. Mhmm. Yeah.

Dax:

So now but now she's working on the actual, like, JavaScript part. And, yeah, I mean, it's only been 1 or 2 months. And with that and she's using ChatGPT as a tutor. I think we've talked about this before, but I think the killer thing with ChatGPT is, when you're learning and even as a professional, you understand yeah. You can do things, you understand it, but there's all these little questions that you, like, never bothered asking because you know you don't understand them, but it's not pressing enough of an issue to actually, like, understand how this works.

Dax:

Always there's always, like, some random CSS property. Like, you know how to get it to do what you want, but you don't really understand how it works. Mhmm. Whereas with Chat cpt, she could just, like, instantly interrogate it about any little doubt she has. So her knowledge ends up being, like, way more complete than mine in a lot of ways.

Dax:

Like, she, like, really understands Grid. She really understands flex.

Adam:

Okay. I need to start asking Ted Gautti about grid and flex. Because I I I realized the other day that I have built front ends, like, UI for 15 years now. And I've always felt like I can, like, replicate a design pixel perfect. You know?

Adam:

Like, I can do that work. And then I realized at some point, like, I bet this takes me way longer than most people. And there's certain things that I still struggle just like, should I use grid or flex here? Which is more efficient? Which would accomplish this better?

Adam:

Some cases, it's like, clearly, I need a grid here because of Yeah. You know, uniform spacing between certain things in different rows. Like, it's sometimes it's very clear. Sometimes it's not. And I realized I've never learned any of this.

Adam:

I've just messed around until I figured stuff out. So to, like, go back to an AI tutor and ask it some very fundamental questions, I can see how you're you're building up a much better foundation. Yeah. You're not just winging it.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. So she, like, knows certain things that I say, explain certain things to me where I'm like, oh, I've always wondered about that.

Adam:

So the case for humans though, I'm sure I could take, Josh Como's, CSS for JavaScript people or whatever it's called.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

I bet I could take that course, and it may be even more efficient in terms of learning the concepts. Somebody's really good at teaching it. I don't know. I've considered taking that one.

Dax:

The the thing though is even there so I've read some of his, like, deep dives on Grid and Flex, and it was really good. Like, it really rounded out my knowledge. But even there, there's always this, like, last mile gap where

Adam:

Like, specific question for my specific thing.

Dax:

Yeah. It's it's like me as a person. Like, you did a great job writing this in a much more clear way than anyone has. Yeah. But it's maybe, like, 95% effective for me, and there's a 5% gap that I have.

Dax:

And every person has, like, a different 5% gap they from the article. So this just, like, helps fill that in. And, the other thing that's interesting is we're all very good at googling. Like, over the years, we've gotten very good at googling, and that's been kinda critical to us being effective at our jobs. Yeah.

Dax:

Liz never liked that process, and she would get frustrated with it. So a big bottleneck for her ever becoming an engineer is you have to get good at Googling, or there was kind of a high bar of Googling you need to be good at. That's gone now. So because I never clicked for her and now it's not a problem, and she's, like, unblocked in in all these ways. And I can see how, like, a lot of people, especially at the beginning, they just get super frustrated because they don't understand anything, and they have to figure out how to use Google to get the thing that they want.

Dax:

And, like, when it's not giving you the answers, you probably but you need to have, like, the right I feel like I'm making progress. I'm frustrated. I feel like I'm making progress. And that that cadence doesn't automatically hit for everyone. Yeah.

Adam:

I hadn't considered the skill that we developed with Googling being less relevant now. Like, it's such a good point that somebody coming in new now doesn't have to learn that stuff. It's not that those skills are still useful. Like, we can still use those skills, but somebody can accomplish the same thing without having those skills now because of this new tool.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

It's interesting. Yeah. I'd like to think about all the things, all the advantages and disadvantages that have changed with the advent of this stuff. Yeah. Like, when I see people that don't like, it feels like I've seen on Twitter recently, people that, like, don't use Copilot or they're surprised that people use Copilot.

Adam:

Like, how do you how do you not use Copilot? Like, the number of things that has made more efficient for me, I can't imagine it not being worth $10 a month if you're a software developer and that's what you do every day.

Dax:

Yeah. I feel like I post a tweet every month that, like, baits people that think that way to reply. Because I'm just curious, Is this still a thing that's going on where people are like, I can't I I don't see it's like it's funny because to me, it just sounds like everyone's lying, and some people are, like, lying in a more sophisticated way. Like, there's people that are like, it's useless. I hate it.

Dax:

Like, I don't know why anyone finds it useful. Okay. Like, you're lying, obviously. Then there's people that are, like, trying to be reasonable, but they're still lying. They're like they're like, sometimes it produces something good, I guess.

Dax:

Yeah. But it's

Adam:

usually wrong.

Dax:

And I'm like, you liar. It's not usually wrong. It's usually useful.

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, it's insane. I mean, like, I work at a startup. And startups, there's always, like, a 1000000 things that we wanna do. And I'm very invested in this startup, having cofounded it 10 years ago.

Adam:

So I want all of it done all, like, right now, all the time. Mhmm. There's just, like, a 1000000 things I wish we would already done. And I wanna, like, hire people because I'm a startup founder, and that's, like, what we used to do is just, like, let's just hire more people. And I've realized with things like Copilot, it's like, no, we should just get faster.

Adam:

We're like, we gotta if if I'm gonna say that I think this stuff makes me so much more productive, like, we should just get all this done faster. And I and, like, I try to think that way, like, how could I just accomplish more? How could this team stay small and we can do everything we wanna do because all these new tools make us faster and more efficient? And I don't know if it's actually happening, but I like to think that way. I like to think, like, no.

Adam:

What can we just do ourselves with AI and do this faster?

Dax:

Yeah. I think it takes even before this AI stuff, everyone want everyone says, like, oh, yeah. We wanna have a small team or we want our team as efficient. Everyone says that, but it takes like a really weird amount of commitment to actually do that in a meaningful way because all the defaults don't swing that way. So if you look at, some of our architecture for some of the products that we maintain, They're kind of weird.

Dax:

Like we chose to build things in like, not our first way, but they tend to be the most maintainable, like lowest overhead way. It just like wasn't what would have happened by default. We didn't have this like guiding principle of like the only thing we'll sacrifice everything except for this being a burden for us long term. So similarly with the AI stuff. Yeah.

Dax:

I went and saw this Copilot, but, like, how far can you really push that? You can, like, take it pretty far. Like, from so initially, I was using Copilot. I don't really use Copilot as much anymore because I'm using other plug in in the oven and that's, like, taking me to another level. But then I see some people on Twitter and they're, like, using it to, like, a much crazier degree.

Dax:

So, yeah, that just doesn't happen by, like, automatically. Like, you need to, like, really because it's such a shift in the way you work.

Adam:

So I'm realizing we talk about AI and all this stuff so much. Is there, like what is the percentage chance that we're just, like, the crypto bros, but with this new thing and we got sucked into something? Is there a chance?

Dax:

Yeah. And you know what? I'm I'm actually happy to be that because I feel like with crypto, it it was definitely too late to become that. Whereas with AI, I still as big and hyped as it is, like, a large portion of software developers are, like, not really playing with it to the degree that I feel like they should. Should.

Dax:

Yeah. So I'll I'm I'm fine over, like, rotating on this because I'm like, the on the plus plus side, like, I'm relatively early to the extent

Adam:

that I play with

Dax:

this stuff relative to other people.

Adam:

So even if

Dax:

I'm overhyping it, it's fine. Like, there's still gonna be some benefits.

Adam:

Like, it is so much different than that hype cycle. Right? Like, nobody ever really found good use cases for all the stuff they were messing with with blockchain and Ethereum and smart contracts and all that. Like, they were always just searching for reasons for this technology to exist. Yeah.

Adam:

That's not the case with AI. Like, there's No. It doesn't go that way, though. Stuff. Yeah.

Adam:

So every time people who are like, oh, it's the same bros from crypto jumping on AI. That may be true. But

Dax:

There are a bunch of those. Yeah.

Adam:

But there's actually utility here, and it's actually changing software development in front of our eyes. Yeah. Okay. So we're not just bought into something, and we not we didn't just get suckered into, I I have to ask these questions. I gotta keep myself level and honest.

Dax:

I don't ever question myself. Oh, okay.

Adam:

I should try that.

Dax:

I don't self reflect. There's no point being

Adam:

self reflect. Do that. I definitely don't do that. Yeah.

Dax:

So I just thought yesterday, we were talking about this. So there's, like, this interesting dynamic where whenever there's a hype cycle, it becomes super easy to raise money for certain ideas. Like, like, insanely easy. Like, literally, you can raise 10 times as much if you land on a certain idea at the right time. And if you you look at that, like, you know, YC's demo day was yesterday.

Dax:

And typically with YC, there's, like, certain companies that are hot. There's, like, hot YC companies when

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

When they do that, and they're able to raise a bunch of money. But the that cohort of hot companies, the hit rate on them is not very high. Like, the overall it's worse than the overall hit rate that you would see generally. Yeah. So, similarly, like, imagine being, like, an image generation or video generation company right now.

Dax:

You probably were able to raise a lot of money really quickly, but it is, like, the worst field to be in because there's so much competition. Everyone's just, like, smashing the crap out of each other. Yeah. And it's great for people that are gonna use that technology because, like, every week is getting better and, like, a new company is showing up to offer it for better or for cheaper. But actually being in that froth kind of sucks.

Dax:

And what I was thinking was what's interesting about all this AI stuff is, yeah, typically you want to be the person, you know, selling the shovels. It's like historically where you wanna build tools that other people use and that's, like, the best position to be in. But, like, this froth is so, like, crazy right now where it's like, are you really gonna end up winning as a person selling shovels? Then I was thinking, like, what if you want the other side and you're like, I'm just going to be the epitome of the customer that they're trying to sell to. And I'll just assume that they're going to get 10 times better in the next year.

Dax:

And I'm just going to try to be like the exact customer I sell to. So what I mean by that is so this stupid example, but like it's an exaggerated example, but it gives you the sense of what this could look like. A bunch of music generation startups helping you generate music. Right?

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

You could start a non tech company, which is a music label today, that is just fully betting on the fact that this stuff gets massive and you're going to be like the people, the person that crushes every other music label and becomes like the only music distributor on the planet. Right? So something insane like that. What's different is normally if you try to do that, it's hard because scaling a non tech business is very slow. It usually requires a lot of people.

Dax:

The entire idea here is AI makes non tech companies scale theoretically, like, in in the extreme as well as a tech company. So I'm like, is that is, like, that actually a better play? Because then you're not in the froth. You just benefit from the output of whatever's going there.

Adam:

Interesting.

Dax:

And the existing players are gonna be super slow to adopt this stuff because it's, like, very disruptive to Yeah. Their business. You know?

Adam:

So I I don't wanna get hung up on the specific example, but I'm hung up on what does a music label do? I just realized I have no idea. Like, what do they do?

Dax:

It's like a VC fund at the end of the day.

Adam:

Okay.

Dax:

They make bets, and they fund, artists that they think will do well. That's kinda what Is

Adam:

there did they do something with distribution? Like, don't artists go to any

Adam:

of the people

Adam:

now? Yeah. Okay.

Dax:

Yeah. But, like, presume I mean, I think the value of labels continues to go down, but if you want to be funded for a year to make your album

Adam:

Yeah. They fund you, and they get some percentage of your revenue.

Dax:

So compare that to, like, a music sorry. Like like a movie studio. It's the exact same thing. They fund it betting that

Adam:

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Dax:

It'll make money. So So

Adam:

you could be an AI movie studio. You're just gonna fund movies that are made by Yeah.

Dax:

Your costs are, like, a 1000 times less. You need a 1000 times less people.

Adam:

Yeah. What what

Dax:

are your costs?

Adam:

Like food and a place to sleep. What are your costs? I don't know what they do. Yeah. I don't know.

Dax:

Like, if if okay. So, basically, if you could make one movie that wins an Oscar at 100th the cost of any other movie, If you pull that off once

Adam:

Okay. You're funding the creation of the movie, and the movie is created through AI. So there's no sets or cameraman Yeah. Or people you have to pay. Yeah.

Adam:

Just GPUs you have to feed.

Dax:

You win an Oscar for a movie that costs a fraction of what a movie like that should cost. Yep. You can now repeat that a 1000 times because it's like an automated process.

Adam:

What is the world gonna become when all of our media I'm sure people

Dax:

are hearing this, and they hate the idea of everything I'm describing, but I'm just it's like a thought experiment, you know?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It's interesting. It just challenges all all kinds of things in my brain.

Adam:

I mean, I guess it would be cool if I could just like have AI make me the perfect movie for me on demand. Like that's where it could head, right? Like on demand in the sense that not like I can choose to watch it whenever I want, but on demand in the sense that it knows my exact preferences and it makes a movie for me. It's a one off. Nobody else can it do could it do that?

Adam:

I guess it could. Would I wanna watch a movie that no one else is gonna watch?

Dax:

That's that's so that's the interesting thing. So, again, if you take it at the extremes, let's say this does work out and it can generate the exact it can generate a 1,000 episodes of the exact weird combination of things you're interested in. There is no sense of, hey. Did you see that episode? It was crazy.

Adam:

Right.

Dax:

Because no one's seen it except for you. And I think we've experienced a little bit of this where, show used to be on TV, and they would come out a new episode would come out every Sunday. We'd all watch it at the same time and be this it'd be like this universal thing that everyone who watches it discusses it on Monday, and it was, like, very in sync. Then it moved to streaming, and some streaming services still release on schedule. Most of them just put out all the episodes at once.

Dax:

Yeah. So everyone's, like, a different place, and you can't talk to someone about it because he might spoil it for them or, like, they watch it, like, 6 months later. And then you at that point, you don't even remember what happened. So we're like

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

That whole thing has been deteriorating. And then now this would be, like, a crazy version of that.

Adam:

Yeah. I guess, like, I don't know that I want that. I don't like, if AI could make me the perfect movie, I don't think I don't think I want that world. I want the world where somebody had to make a bet and make a movie with a bunch of money and a bunch of people. And maybe it was a stupid movie, and it didn't work out for him.

Adam:

But maybe sometimes really good movies come out of that, and then I get to watch it and talk about it with you, about how that movie was good or that movie sucked. Yeah. I like I like that world.

Dax:

Yeah. And I will say, like, I feel like already the level of f I think studios have already, like, derisked the hell out of movies to a point where they actually just look worse. And we talked about this the other day about how, like, when they made Lord

Adam:

of the Rings, they

Dax:

were freaking, like, hiking in the mountains to go, like, film.

Adam:

Hell, yeah. And then

Dax:

now they, like, don't risk that at all. Everything is fully CGI, and it's genuinely worse. Like, it it just is worse. We were we were watching this TV show, Pillars of the Earth, and it came out in 2010. And it doesn't look amazing because TV shows weren't, like, crazy funded back then,

Adam:

but it

Dax:

still looks so much better than most TV shows because it's, like, a real set and real stuff in the background and, like, stuff looks dirty and textured and and everything. And, yeah, I do wonder if the reality of AI produced stuff is, like, people don't really attack the quality dimension of it. They just attack, like, the some other, like, base thing of, like, oh, this is, like, hyper specific to you, so the quality of it doesn't matter. Yeah. So it would suck if, like, that that dimension, like, just stops existing.

Dax:

And I feel like we're already kinda going down that road.

Adam:

Yeah. The more I see people share, like, AI generated music and movie stuff or, like, not movies, but people are sharing the clips that were videos created by AI. Yeah. Like, I I always every time I see something, I have to think, like, where is this headed? Why?

Adam:

And, like, where will the real utility come in? Like, what doesn't just destroy? It's the I mean, it's the art too. It's the image generation stuff. It's like, cool.

Adam:

Everyone can create an image that looks like whatever they want it to be. And now what? Like, I don't know. It just the whole at the end of the day, it's kinda like, what are we doing with all this? What's the point?

Adam:

What's the end game? This just feels like this, like, trick that we're all like, look. I can do this now.

Dax:

Yeah. I know. It it is funny how fast that burn. Like, the image generation stuff was, like, crazy, and I feel like it's kinda burned out in a lot of ways where we're like

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

This isn't that fun. But it does show up in funny places. Like, Lita's grandma texted her or her it was like her aunt or someone texted her on Easter, like, happy Easter. But, like, she sent, like, this AI generated Easter egg that had, like it sounded like a happy Easter on it. It's, like, so funny.

Dax:

It's, like, it's basically devolved all the way down to, like, random shit, like, older people in your family

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Than you. Like, it has, like, that vibe. Like, like, random clip art type of thing.

Adam:

I do feel like there's gonna be some thing that comes out of all of it, the generative AI stuff. It's just hard to imagine that it's what we're doing right now, I guess.

Dax:

It's all party tricks right now, and that's fun and has value. But, yeah, it's, like, short lived. Like, the like, the music stuff, I was we I finally started playing with it yesterday. You've seen the v 3 of suno.ai. Or have you seen it?

Adam:

Of what?

Dax:

So that music generation company, suno.ai. Suno? Suno s u I.

Adam:

I knew there were some of them. Oh, I saw your oh, I saw your Zuko. Sorry. I forgot I saw.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

That was actually really good. Yeah.

Dax:

So their v3 model came out a month ago, and for some reason, like, it hasn't gotten a lot of hype. I think it's starting to now, but it's past the threshold where I'm like, these are good songs. Like, some of these are like like, the Zuko song got stuck in my head.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

It was, like, stuck

Adam:

in my head.

Dax:

I was,

Adam:

like, I was,

Dax:

like, filming it this morning. And we made a bunch, so we made one. So Liz's parents, they they work in construction. They focus on granite, and her dad's nickname is, Manolito. And she made a song called Manolito El Rey de Granito, which is the king of granite.

Dax:

And she made it like a salsa song, and it was so good. Like, there was, like, the main person singing that they were, like, background vocalists, like, hinting back at him, and it was so well done. And it was so funny because, like, now he has, like, a jingle for his business, basically. And, yeah, it's crazy. And I'm sure, like, a couple months from now, it's gonna feel, like, corny.

Adam:

Well, it's it's how images feel now, probably. The music feels fresh just like the images did. Eventually, they'll feel this way.

Dax:

So even though there's, like, a wide so you can tell to make a rap song, an indie song, a country song, whatever. So it feels like unlimited possibilities. There's still some underlying, like, structure to all of it because I think they need to narrow the structure to make it so it's producing stuff that makes sense.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

And I think our brains over time pick up on that, whatever that, like, invisible subconscious structure is, and it starts to feel cliche. Yeah. And I that's, like, really amazing to see because, like, every single you can tell a Midjourney image now. It's, like, you can kinda feel this whether it's, like, a cartoon image or, like, a realistic image, you can, like, feel that it's made with Midjourney.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

And that feels redundant and kinda corny. So, yeah, it's crazy. We we we can get desensitized to anything no matter how, like, wild it is.

Adam:

Yeah. The this is a kind of a tangent on the image generation stuff. But we actually like, we have a use case for image generation, style transfer, something. And I nothing exists that does what what what I needed to do. So we have, like, over 5 or 6000, something like that, illustrations of players that an illustrator has hand drawn for the last decade.

Adam:

And he can only do so many a week. And at the end of the day, we wanna roll out all these new domains, but there's so many new athletes. Like, if we wanna add college football there's all these college football athletes that we have to hand draw, and it takes months of lead up to draw enough of them to really feel like, okay, we could launch this domain. We can actually build the technology for the sport faster than we can illustrate players. It's a huge bottleneck.

Adam:

So I wanna just be able to say, here is a set of 5,000 of these images that we could train some model that could just take a photo of that person and turn it into an illustration that looks like this artist's style. Mhmm.

Adam:

And it

Adam:

can't do it. All these models are so good at making gibberish and spitting out random image vomit, but they can't just do this very simple thing. I feel like this is such a simple use case. Like, that would actually be very helpful for us. And if someone knows of a way to do that, like, we've tried them all, and they're all just not they can't do it.

Adam:

I don't understand. I feel like that should be the easiest thing in the world for AI to pull off.

Dax:

Yeah. I mean, that that that goes to show how these things are built. Like, the, they are, like, tuned to produce a certain very specific type of output. And even though it looks like it can do anything, it is still very narrow and specific. Yeah.

Dax:

So some of those limitations are interesting to understand, because it really feels like it can do anything, but it it it's really far from that, actually.

Adam:

So another angle on the generative AI stuff that I feel like this one it was 3 or 4 years ago, really, that this was being pushed on. I know this because it's tech that we use for our stuff. But the voice matching, like, creating

Adam:

Mhmm.

Adam:

Like, a voice or audio of someone speaking that sounds just like them speaking. And now I feel like they're pushing it further. It's like, now we need 5 seconds of your voice and we can completely mimic. Like, that tech's getting super good. I feel like there's probably lots of use cases for that, probably.

Adam:

I mean, I know there is. I know we wanted to do stuff. We did stuff. We we so, like, we answer sports questions. We did stuff where, like, the athletes.

Adam:

Oh, that's

Dax:

so cool. It was

Adam:

like yeah. It was like so if you asked who had the most passing touchdowns in a season, Peyton Manning comes on. He's like, hey. It's Peyton Manning. I had 55 touchdown with the Broncos and but we did it with, like, the most dumb, like, just, like, string together audio files.

Adam:

Like, we concatenated audio files. And we did some stuff to, like, make it sound pretty natural. Like, we didn't just take a word anywhere in a sentence. Like, we made sure we had them saying phrases that we could use larger chunks anyway.

Dax:

Chunks. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. But he could, like, answer anything about his career in his voice on an Alexa or Google Assistant or whatever. So we've looked at this tech for for probably 5 years, like, doing stuff in this space, and we've seen it evolve. I I just I don't I still don't see, like, real people using it for real stuff. Like, where is the real stuff coming for all this different advancement in AI tech?

Adam:

Because there's so many categories. You've got, like, every possible category of thing you could generate that AI can generate now. When when where is it headed? When's it all gonna come together into, like, man, remember life before that?

Dax:

Because

Adam:

there's not really that yet.

Dax:

Yeah. So I was, so so day 1 of YC demo date was yesterday, and I watched I had in the background, like, while I was doing work and obviously there was, like, a lot of AI companies. And, yeah, I think the pattern that I saw across them, at least right now, which I think makes sense is, they pick some crazy random niche, like, someone that manages a lot of vacation properties or like this very specific task in insurance companies or this very whatever. There's even this one company, I forgot what the industry they were in, but they like, the founders got jobs doing this thing and they would do their job during the day and they would try to automate it at night. And they claimed that they were down to 45 minutes a day of work for them.

Dax:

Then they quit, and they started a company to, like, deploy this as, like, you know, a way to make these companies more efficient.

Adam:

And this was the insurance thing?

Dax:

There was something in the insurance related market. It was something like just like high labor, like low creativity job.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. So that that's how they that was a genius way of, like, bootstrapping that, I thought. Yeah. But it's like so many of these, like, just most of the companies were just, like, picking some random things. So I would say that's where I think I see people actually using it, but it's really it's not like spectacular.

Dax:

It's more there's a lot of life is busy work and they're just crawling into every, like, niche trying to get rid of some of that busy work. I actually think that with the way this stuff is going, that a company will come out that will be a superset of all these little little things. Like, if you have an AI that can drive a browser really well, it can kinda do all these narrow focus things that these people are niching down into. Like, there was even this, there's one company that said they, they were targeting tasks that people do on Fiverr typically, and they were helping companies that spend a lot on Fiverr to like go spend $0 on Fiverr because there'd be like AI workers that went and did that. And so that's like a much broader set of tasks.

Dax:

So yeah, that's what I'm seeing in the real world, but there's nothing, like, really spectacular or, like, drastically the world is different now

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

Type of thing yet.

Adam:

Can I interject kind of, like, a philosophical question that that all posed for me?

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

So so this person automated their job. Mhmm. And they had some insurance. Let's just assume, in this hypothetical scenario, that job pays you well enough that you're comfortable. Like, you don't have big aspirations.

Adam:

You're you're happy, and you're keeping up with inflation or whatever. I don't know. Because some people would say like, well, it depends on if that job anyway, you're making enough that you're you're you're comfortable, and you've gotten your job down to 45 minutes a day of work. There's this guy who then decided, I'm gonna start a YC based company. Okay.

Adam:

There's that jumping point. Or there's, like, just chill at your dot job where you spend 45 minutes a day and you make a comfortable living. What do you think out of, like, a 100 people? What do you think the breakdown is of, like, people who would just chill at said job for 45 minutes a day and enjoy their life of whatever they pursue from there, versus I'm gonna go create a company to, like, monetize this technology or this idea.

Dax:

Well, the the problem is the world isn't static. So you can do that for a year, maybe 2 years, maybe 3 years, but, eventually, someone does it. So it's like a it's just like a game theory thing. Like, if it's not you, it's gonna be someone else. I think if you're smart enough to automate it, you probably will figure that it's not gonna last long either.

Adam:

So maybe it's not out of a 100 people. Maybe it's for you. The question is for you. Does any part of you ever just wanna be the person that just would just do the thing for 45 minutes a day and then be like, I'm good. I'm not gonna push any harder.

Adam:

I'm just I'm good.

Dax:

Yeah. I think I sometimes the the thing I always think about is, like, applying to 10 junior engineer roles. I mean, it's less less of a thing now, but, like, back in, like, when hiring was crazy and hiring anyone big win.

Adam:

Thing. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. There's whole

Adam:

credits, right, about

Dax:

I could just go be a junior engineer and, like, you know, 80 k salary or something and just have, like, 10 of those. Like, I'm sure I could easily, like, nail 10 of those. Yeah.

Adam:

10 of them.

Dax:

Yeah. The other option was to then or just apply to 1 junior engineering role and just, like, shock the company on how fast it was progressing and, like, use that momentum to, like, shoot out to VP or something. Yeah. As, like, to the

Adam:

CEO or something.

Adam:

The CTO. Yeah. Is that what you did with, with SSC? She's come in and shooting up ahead of Frank and and Jay.

Dax:

Yeah. So I did think about it, but just, I mean, I'm not I'm never I would never actually do any of

Adam:

those things. You would never coast.

Dax:

It's not my no. It just feels dangerous to me. Like, I, like, feel like it feels like you're you know, sharks die when they don't keep swimming. It kinda feels like that to me. Like, if I'm still, like, I'm just gonna get killed or something.

Dax:

That's what it feels like to me.

Adam:

Oh, wait. You're talking about the the coasting on the 45 minutes a day thing? I'm talking about the people who are overemployed with, like, 10 jobs. Not 10 jobs, but the people who, like, post on Reddit about their 3 software engineering jobs, and they managed to juggle them on. One of them, they haven't had to talk to them for a year, and they still get paid and, like, all that stuff.

Adam:

Have you seen that stuff?

Dax:

Yeah. But I mean, when I was a consultant, I was basically doing doing that. So it doesn't feel that awful.

Adam:

But it's, like, it's okay if it's, like it is funny. It's, like, if you're an independent consultant, yeah,

Adam:

of course, you

Adam:

have 10 jobs. If you've bought out

Dax:

this form, but not this

Adam:

form, it's totally fine. If you gave them a w nine and they give you a w two, it's totally bad. Don't do it that way. Ethically terrible. Woah.

Adam:

It is funny.

Dax:

So we there so just to pivot a bit, there's a lot that was happening this week, I think. Oh, I

Adam:

have no idea. I've been traveling. I literally need you to catch me up on everything. Alright. And the listener.

Dax:

You got a work thing. Okay. So one, I have great news.

Adam:

Oh.

Dax:

As of this morning, the Lambda team fixed that streaming issue that I found, which is really crazy because they've never this is a first okay. So I'm gonna give them I'm gonna, like, lavish compliments on AWS right now because I I never do this. I found this problem. So I, like, was investigating. I started investigating on Friday.

Dax:

I, like, started being like, is this broken on Friday? And then by Monday, I was like, this is definitely broken.

Adam:

Definitely broken.

Adam:

And then

Adam:

and then

Dax:

so then someone reached out. Like, I would say a bunch of people reached out, which has happened before. Like, people from AWS have reached out. Yeah. But I replied, you know, I always reply just in case something actually happens.

Dax:

Usually nothing happens. But this time, like the head head PM or product person I'm sorry, not PM. That's probably like devaluing his title. Just the person in charge of Lambda from a product perspective reached out and was like, oh, the team's investigating this. Like, we we've identified the issue.

Dax:

I'm gonna roll out a fix. We ended up taking them, like, a week longer than they expected, but they, like, almost every day, they were keeping me in the loop around what's happening. Yeah. And, like, several people, like, someone else in that team messaged me being like, oh, hey. Can we get, like, the code sample you're using?

Dax:

Then that person messaged me yesterday being, like, I tested your code sample against the fix. Like, it does seem to work now. So they were super engaged, crazy reactive. Like, you know, they they fix this so quickly, and they kept me in the loop the whole time, which is amazing. This is kind of what I this is like Yeah.

Dax:

Great job. Like, every other team on AWS should, like, look at this as an example of, you know, this is how we should engage with with the community. Yeah. But, yeah, great. Good job, AWS.

Dax:

We're gonna add streaming support to all these frameworks now that said they already had it, but, you know, it turns out it doesn't really work.

Adam:

My bad.

Dax:

I'm not part

Adam:

of the

Adam:

problem on that one.

Dax:

No. Because you tried to turn it on, and it didn't work for you. Right? And you

Adam:

turned it on.

Adam:

I mean, I I shipped, like, I tried to ship Astro streaming support and SST, I think.

Dax:

No. I'm that code probably is is correct. But The

Adam:

code is correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is I'm not using it because

Dax:

everyone's trying I went and looked at I I went and looked at hono. I looked at, like, everything. Everyone added streaming support. I tried everyone's things, and I was like, none of these will work. Like, why is it's like nobody using this.

Dax:

And and to be fair, it's not that it a 100% didn't work. It just if there was so in a stream, if there was an initial chunk and another chunk, those first two chunks would always get sent together. So if you were testing something stupid where it sent, like, 10 chunks, you might not notice that the first two came together because then 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, like, those would come out come, like, 1 by 1. Yeah. But in practice, it's usually most sites render as 2 chunks because it's, like, the initial shell Yeah.

Dax:

And, like, the actual content.

Adam:

PPR. Yeah.

Dax:

That's basically the PPR concept. Right?

Adam:

Is that right? Did I get it right? Is it PPR?

Dax:

It's PPR is like a like a sub like a narrow subcategory of this scenario. But

Adam:

It's also, points per reception. That's how I remember it. Fantasy football. Shout out to everybody that's listening. That's fantasy football.

Dax:

That's how nerdy,

Adam:

That's the only way I can remember it.

Dax:

That's how nerdy this web development world is. They're like

Adam:

It really is.

Dax:

Not only did they pick a new acronym that was unnecessary and, like, they're overinflating it, they also just didn't realize it was already stepping

Adam:

on it.

Dax:

Does it have another acronym? Yeah.

Adam:

Exactly.

Dax:

So Lambda Streaming, it works now. The next couple of days, I'm gonna add support. I'm gonna test all the frameworks, get support across the board. There's been this running joke because we still don't have Nuxt support, and it's like we're, like, irrationally not supporting at this point because so many people have asked for it. And we're just like Yeah.

Dax:

For some reason, we always defer it, but I'm finally actually getting support in now, for it. Nice. But only because solid start is built on the same

Adam:

Oh, no. Don't ask yourself, Dex. Just It doesn't look like you did it.

Dax:

For solid start, and it happens to work for Nux, so we have enough support.

Adam:

You could've gotten off the hook there and looked like you had good intentions, but you just outed yourself.

Adam:

I don't

Dax:

know what it is. Every time we're like, okay, we're gonna do Nuxt this week, it just doesn't happen. It's gone on for, like, a year now.

Adam:

I somehow know what it is.

Dax:

What is it?

Adam:

I mean, I because I have the same feeling about Nuxt. Why why is it hard to they should've just gone with a name that wasn't close to next. I feel like they're like it was like a tongue in cheek, like, Nuxt. Yeah. I don't know.

Adam:

It's just like it's hard to take it seriously. But I know a lot of you people, a lot of, like okay. You've said before, the development software development or web development or whatever was split into, like, PHP and non PHP. There's also a Vue thing in there somewhere. Yeah.

Dax:

It's a good Vue.

Adam:

There's, like, a little Vue island. Yeah. Because it just feels like a whole different community, and I don't interact with them, and I don't know.

Dax:

Related to the PHP community, I feel like. I feel

Adam:

like a

Adam:

bunch of PHP users. Of PHP people use Vue. There's some weird Venn diagram here somebody needs to make.

Dax:

Yeah. It's

Adam:

like yeah. These are different camps that we all live in. So I wanna go back to Lambda thing real quick. So Lambda, the Lambda team had this interaction with you that was positive. Yeah.

Adam:

I'd like to just request, if anyone on the Amplify team is listening, reach out to Dax. Get some feedback on how you can improve Amplify because I think there's there's precedent now.

Dax:

That was really well delivered. I was like, what the fuck?

Adam:

I just I wanna build a bridge here. There's a precedent now for SSD working together with service teams. And I think I think SST has a lot of feedback for Amplify, so you should you should reach out.

Dax:

That was so because I I, because until you said Amplify, I was like, okay. I see where he's going. And you said Amplify, and I was like, is he being serious?

Adam:

What would your feedback for the Amplify team be?

Dax:

Just just stop. Just stop.

Dax:

Just stop.

Dax:

Just stop. It's like, you guys are on v 3 now? Like, it's it's fine. Just I

Adam:

really thought there was hope that you might build a better relationship with AWS, but doesn't sound like it.

Dax:

I, I can't help but be honest. I honestly think the Lambda team did a really great job, and I'm really impressed. Yeah. For the size of AWS, like, this level of microinteraction is not what you can normally get.

Adam:

So I mean, AWS is a big old thing. So, like, lots of people involved. It makes sense that there'd be a lot of those people that are really good at at doing these types of interactions. I mean, like, within AWS, I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would be great to work with. You just haven't run into the situation where you need to work with them.

Adam:

But then there is also this, like, hostility, I feel. I don't know. I feel like I'm in the middle of it. I feel like I'm like mommy and daddy are fighting at the dinner table kind of thing. I wish you guys could make up.

Adam:

I wish you and AWS. You know? Now you've started building Cloudflare stuff. Nah. It's just not helping.

Adam:

Well, I

Dax:

was gonna say that that that's the second part of the news this week. So we're in the middle of Cloudflare dev week. So this is Thursday. So I guess we're almost done.

Adam:

This is the SSO day? Okay.

Dax:

That was such a good tweet. Oh my god. I gotta say it again. So, PlanisCO, Sam, he goes, why does every company announce SSO and SOC 2 support on Thursdays of their launch week?

Adam:

And I

Dax:

was like, this is such a good observation. Like, this is so funny because there's the underlying thing of every company has a launch week. Nobody has enough stuff for a launch week. Yeah.

Adam:

You do

Dax:

not have enough stuff for a launch week, and that's why you do need SSO support on Thursday.

Adam:

Yeah. By Thursday, you're really grasping at trials.

Dax:

Yeah. Personally, I love SSO support. Like, I hate it when companies don't have it. So I'm like, yes. Hell, yeah.

Dax:

Sign sign me in with my, like, Google Workspace account. Amazing. I love it. But yeah. And a broad sense of things is not, like, the most killer killer thing to announce for a whole day.

Adam:

Oh, now I need to know all the things that Cloudflare has announced, cause I'm sure you've been staying on top of it. But also things that are happening on Tech Twitter. Just whatever order, you can interleave them

Dax:

if you want. So Cloudflare is what? I tweeted this before where I'm like, most companies' cloud of launch weeks are just, like, underwhelming. But whenever Cloudflare is a launch week, I, like, rethink everything I'm doing.

Adam:

Oh, I'm sure they've got a lot.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. They have they had a lot of stuff. So, some of the more significant things that stick out. So they launched something called, workflows, which is a step function equivalent,

Adam:

basically. Step

Dax:

function. Okay. Yeah. But it's all just a normal JavaScript. So, like, you you can define steps in normal JavaScript.

Adam:

Like, the definition of it is in JavaScript?

Dax:

Normal code. They have, like, a, like, a context dot task or something and you name each step, but you just you're just writing normal code. And if one step fails, it'll, like, retry and all the stuff that you would use a sub function workflow for. They're durable. They'll, like, you know, you can sleep for a year if you want.

Dax:

You can do all that stuff. So all those, like, random startups, like, not random. Okay. All those Yeah. Startups dedicated to several temporal ingest, etcetera.

Dax:

If you're on Cloudflare, like, why use those? It's like a native thing, and it's so much better than AWS sub function. So I think that is awesome. Mhmm.

Adam:

I

Dax:

think there's an argument to be made that if it's just normal JavaScript TypeScript, should most of your code be a workflow? Like, anything that's asynchronous probably should be. Like, it avoids having to, like, route stuff through a queue and and do retries yourself. So that was one major thing. They launched pipelines, which is a Kinesis equivalent.

Dax:

So it's ingesting large amounts of data. It supports Kinesis endpoints, but normal HTTP endpoints, even WebSocket sources, like, it can pull from wherever.

Adam:

Backup. It supports Kinesis endpoints. What do you mean?

Dax:

If you already have a Kinesis stream, you can, like, dump it into

Adam:

this Oh, into this thing.

Adam:

Yeah. So

Dax:

if you want to give them a call to

Adam:

integration to Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. Or you could just, like, you know, put stuff within their normal HTTP. I think, like I said, they have, like, a WebSocket integration as well, which is kinda crazy. And they have this whole they haven't released this yet, but they've previewed what they're thinking. They have this whole, like, stream processing system on top of it.

Dax:

So you can define, like, this kind of, like, chained calls of being, like you can, like, define all the ways you wanna transform the data before it, like, spits out the other end. Yeah. And that just runs against everything that comes in.

Adam:

Kinesis has similar like, you can put functions that modify stream stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. So you can do and and and things like that. It's there's some Apache project that's very similar and they're, like, modeling it off of. So those 2 were big because those are, like, big patches.

Adam:

Sorry. It took me a second.

Dax:

Is it Apache?

Adam:

Yeah. You said Apache. It's Apache. Right?

Dax:

Well, it depends, like, you know

Adam:

Wait. Did you really think it was Apache? Or was that just a misspeak?

Dax:

No. I I've always said Apache.

Adam:

You you always said Apache?

Dax:

I've heard Apache.

Adam:

Is that the wrong one? I don't know.

Dax:

Like, should we ask the Native Americans? Like, who are we going off with?

Dax:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Adam:

I just forgot that that is a native American tribe. Oh, that's so funny. You're literally

Dax:

on their land, Adam. Your is built on probably an Apache slash Apache.

Adam:

Apache. I'm pretty sure it's Apache. And I have a lot of native native American, DNA. Like, I think I wanna say my grandma is, like, a quarter Native American.

Dax:

So Okay. My computer says Apache, but

Adam:

There you go.

Dax:

Apache. Okay.

Dax:

I'm gonna

Adam:

call it Apache now. I think it sounds nicer. A little more, like, sophisticated.

Dax:

I've said both so many times. Now they both sound ridiculous to me.

Adam:

Apache Apache has a long history of, like they were part of the LAMP stack. Right?

Dax:

Yeah. That that was, like that's how they started. Now they're the this open source foundation.

Adam:

What part of I mean, I know the a, but what what did it do? So Linux?

Dax:

The server was like before we always use NGINX.

Adam:

Okay. So is NGINX equivalent?

Dax:

It was shitty. It was so bad. Really? It spawned like a process per request or something insane like that. It was like

Adam:

just

Dax:

garbage.

Dax:

Wait. What? I'm sorry.

Adam:

I guess computers were old and dumb back then.

Dax:

So It might have not been that ridiculous, but it was like something like that where it was just like the slowest thing I've ever seen.

Adam:

Well, now I'm interrupting you, but now, Linux, Apache, m is for MongoDB,

Dax:

and p is

Adam:

and p is for don't tell me. Don't tell me. PHP.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

There you go. Wow. So PHP, look at it with its roots back in the original the original OG stack. Yeah. PHP.

Adam:

Been around so long. I actually did write PHP, like, early in my career.

Dax:

Me too. That's one of the first things I did.

Adam:

Yeah. Same. Oh, man. If you could go back and see the websites, I would have been making for people. This is so bad.

Adam:

Okay.

Dax:

I yeah. I remember back like, I didn't I don't know if PHP frameworks were out back then, but, like, literally, I like no semblance of a framework for anything I did. Like, every page just contained a 100% of the code that needed to render that page.

Adam:

Yeah. It was just still how Levels you know, Peter Levels, writes things, but I digress. Yeah.

Dax:

Okay. So

Adam:

Cloudflare. So step functions, Kinesis, keep going.

Dax:

Yeah. So those are the 2 big infrastructure pieces that came out.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

So d one, their SQL light database went general availability. So that's they're considering that stable now.

Adam:

I'm sorry. I always hate in launch weeks when something goes GA. It's like, I just wanna hear about the new stuff. Like, who cares? I thought it was GA anyway.

Adam:

I used it anyway. I didn't care. Like Yeah. GA doesn't help me. I feel like it's like a lawyer distinction.

Adam:

Like, the lawyers are like, yes. It went GA, guys. We can use it now. Like,

Dax:

who cares?

Dax:

That's funny. So there's a bunch of AI stuff. I didn't look too deeply into that, but you can basically, they did a partnership with Hugging Face. So any model in Hugging Face, you can, like, instantly deploy into Cloudflare Global Infrastructure, which is amazing. And the Cloudflare costs for that stuff are crazy low, which is awesome.

Dax:

And they also let you deploy fine tune models. So that's it's kinda one of the best ways to deploy something that's not generic at scale.

Adam:

Yeah. So Hugging Face integration is sort of like their Bedrock play. Like, Bedrock is basically just like, here's all the models. You can use them. And they're doing that, but with the whole library of Hugging Face.

Adam:

By by the way, top five company name, Hugging Face. Right? Is it is there a 5 better? I can't.

Dax:

Oh my god. I hate that name so much.

Dax:

Hugging Face. Sorry to take

Adam:

it seriously, but but it's huge. The these things

Dax:

I know. It's so successful. But

Adam:

So that's it for Cloudflare launch week?

Dax:

There's a bunch of other things that are, like, nice ergonomic things that we're kind of missing that are there. Like, they started to build, like you know how AWS has all the service to service connections, like, buckets emit events that you can so they added they started to add that stuff to r 2. Yeah. So I think the major ones were the workflow for me, at least, the workflow and the Kinesis equivalent pipelines. Yeah.

Dax:

I think those 2 are, like, very significant because, again, it starts to look more and more and more complete, but, like, fully natively serverless all the way down. Yeah. Oh, Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, again, you could say you didn't care about it.

Dax:

I think Analytics Engine went GA as well with actual pricing, which is their, ClickHouse as a service with serverless. Yeah. So any analytics type data is pretty cool.

Adam:

Yeah. I need to play with it. I need to I need to play with more of the Cloudflare stuff because there's things I do that probably take so much more effort to accomplish on AWS that would be fast on Cloudflare.

Dax:

And cheap too. So today

Adam:

And cheap.

Dax:

After this, I'm wrapping up our Cloudflare our initial Cloudflare support so that you get, like

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

You know, like, the hot uploading while you're in development,

Adam:

just, like, all the

Dax:

all the linking work. It's actually not gonna be very hot. Like, our crazy trick that we do for AWS Lambda where we run it locally, it's going to take quite a bit of effort to get that working for Cloudflare Workers. For this first version, we're just like re uploading your stuff every time. So it's not as fast.

Dax:

It takes like a couple seconds, but it's something I use for us to get started. But once that's there, I'm gonna be, like, moving a project over to, like, the Cloudflare stack. Yeah. I might start streaming again doing that. But

Adam:

So I think this is the thing we should actually talk about. There's an existential threat to AWS in my eyes. Well, I don't know if anything could really be a threat to AWS. It's so dark. But at least, in the effort to push modern web developers on AWS versus something like Cloudflare, there this we've talked about this offline.

Adam:

This issue of costs at the CDN level. So I don't I don't understand how Cloudflare can be so cheap at what they do for, like, DDoS mitigation. So, like, I okay. Let me back up. I run a consumer website.

Adam:

We get a lot of traffic. We also get a lot of nefarious traffic. Is that the way you say that word? Nefarious? Nefarious?

Adam:

Nefarious.

Dax:

Nefarious?

Adam:

Apache.

Dax:

Apache?

Adam:

We get a lot of, like, bad actors that, for various reasons, hit us with absurd amounts of traffic, and we have to, like, deal with that. But we also are like we're a business. Like, we have the funds to handle that. There's been noted cases of people who are small indie hacker types building things, and then they get DDoS ed on AWS. There's not really a way to, like, mitigate the cost element of that.

Adam:

Like, if you get tons and tons of traffic and you're a small, player like, the the the cost mitigation for DDoS attacks is AWS Shield advanced, I guess, which is, like, 3,000 a month, which for a business, not so big deal, not a big deal, if you have real revenue and traffic or whatever. But below that, like, you're you're just building a small thing or you're, whatever, side project, start up, early stage. There's not really a way to, like, prevent that cost worth. Cloudflare, seemingly, it's free to just stop people from spamming your stuff. How does that work?

Dax:

So I think there's a few dimensions here. One is, like, the pure technical thing. Cloudflare started to do that. That's how they were started. They were founded to solve this problem.

Dax:

And they just focused on this for like a crazy amount of years, like over 10 years. And they won that category and they spent that time, like integrating and deploying, like, hardware to, like, the craziest places, like, integrated at, like, the ISP level. They have all these, like, deals that nobody else has. Yeah. So they're in a unique position.

Dax:

But I think the other weird dynamic is companies get addicted to certain kinds of revenue and become unable to take action that hurts that even if the action is right long term. If you look at someone like AWS, the egress thing has been, like, a huge revenue source for them. They charge a lot for bandwidth. And that's like at this point, so established in AWS that I'm skeptical they could ever launch a feature that's, like, writing that off to 0. Whereas Cloudflare never had that, and, of course, it has them underlying stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. It's always they they're they're they've never been addicted to that form of revenue. Yeah. So everything they launch now is, like, really generous in that dimension.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

I don't think AWS couldn't do it from, like, a technical or, like, unit cost Yeah. Position. It's just, like, the the reality is, like, companies become static when they around their revenue sources. So I think that's actually it. Like, r two has again, all these things come with asterisk.

Dax:

Like, r two has free egress, so you can have people downloading yourself as much as you want. There is some, like, unspoken soft limit where you will have to pay. It's obviously way higher than anything AWS is willing to do.

Adam:

They also have the per like, the CPU billing on their CPU billing. Yeah. Workers. Right? Where, like, if it's idle, you're not billed?

Dax:

Yep. Exactly. And I think that a lot of that like, now that I'm digging into it more, I'm seeing how all this stuff comes together. Right? So they built an edge network and they're like, we need to be able to run custom logic for requests that come through.

Dax:

So they built this workers concept, which initially you can imagine it was just for, like, doing things like if the request is to this URL, proxy it to this back end URL offers from to, like, this where, like, proxy it, like, just basic proxying stuff. And you see how the work there is, like, some initial logic and then just, like, pure IO.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

So you can see how workers was built around the concept of like, it's not really going to be doing much CPU work, it's just going to be delegating to to IO work. Mhmm. And that expanded over time to workers became more capable, more useful. And, yeah, so I think that that, like, reflects in their pricing where they just charge for CPU because the whole purpose of it was really just to delegate IO stuff. There's so many things I find in their system where I'm like, oh, like I'm, I'll be looking for a specific solution for something because I, like, exist in AWS.

Dax:

And then I realize, oh, no. You just, like, use a worker for that. He's, like, use a worker for everything because a worker is just a thing that handles a request first and super cheap and you can do whatever logic you want in there. So, like, there's not a thing like like in CloudFront, there's not, you know, how CloudFront has, like, routing rules. You specify patterns and where it should go.

Dax:

You look for that in CloudFlare, you're like, it doesn't exist. Oh, because you just deploy a work group with whatever logic you want to route however you want. Yeah. Yeah. So I think those primitives are kind of interesting.

Dax:

Yeah. Just simpler. And I think that they had this sort of narrow way of thinking about it, and I think that resulted in yeah. Lambda has to spin up a whole firecracker container. You know?

Dax:

Yeah. They They don't have to do that. So it's it's quite different.

Adam:

So how do you how do you view the future of Cloudflare and AWS from a, like, serverless modern web dev perspective? How do you see it all playing out?

Dax:

Yeah. I think for years, I've always felt like everyone focuses on the big three. Like, it's Google Cloud, for some reason, AWS, and Azure. And Azure is just living off of the network that Microsoft has, which is massive and will never die. Google Cloud is irrelevant besides the fact they have the word Google at the front of it.

Adam:

So I

Dax:

was like, this is not really a contest. Like, AWS is just kind of 1 and they're gonna continue to win. And there's really no meaningful difference that anything any of these other 2 can do that's gonna change that. But then I saw Cloudflare, which to me looked a lot like the future that AWS kind of invented but, like, better. Like, AWS Yeah.

Dax:

Does get credit for inventing, like, this event driven, like, very serverless way of doing things. Yeah. And it kinda feels like Cloudflare saw that and was like, we can do that better because we have no baggage, and we're gonna just They

Adam:

have no baggage. Right. They're starting from, like, a later vantage point. And, like, anytime you can start later and build on ideas like that, like, it can be a lot simpler. You can you don't have all the baggage.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

And I feel like they committed like, if you give Amazon credit for inventing this idea, it feels like they committed to the idea way harder than Amazon ever did. So there, I was like, okay, this is actually potentially disruptive because if this is what the bet on the future is gonna look like and Amazon feels that way

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

They're gonna win because their model is better aligned for this. So I've always thought they were the best, like, edge case disruptor of AWS, and I feel like it's just become more and more likely. The adoption is nowhere. The adoption does not reflect that at all. Like very few people are using Cloudflare.

Dax:

It just has not really happened, but it just becomes, they're going to reach a tipping point at some point where a a lot of new projects get get started with them. I plan on doing everything new from now on on Cloudflare.

Adam:

Oh,

Adam:

the SST vote. Not for

Dax:

SST because our customers aren't AWS, but for other stuff that I'm familiar with.

Adam:

Projects. I mean, that's telling. That's that's information. You know? It's useful information.

Dax:

I might, like, end up there might be, like, you know, every there's always, like, a rosy window where you see everything is gray and you find out, like, x y z things suck on it. I'm sure they'll discover those, but

Adam:

Yeah. Please discover those and and report back. I do wonder, like, should I be putting Cloudflare in front of my CDN, my CloudFront CDN? From, like, a, logistics or not logistics. From a performance latency standpoint, is that just bad?

Adam:

Is it so bad?

Dax:

This is a funny thing we realized also. We're like, okay. AWS WAF is not as good as Cloudflare. It's equivalent. Like, Cloudflare is better at handling the reasons you need to WAF.

Dax:

Yeah. They just solve it for you and you don't get charged. That's great. So presumably, you wanna put Cloudflare in front, but putting Cloudflare in front isn't just DNS. Like, it means you're routing all your traffic through it.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

So your end users are hitting CloudFront sorry, Cloudflare first at some edge location. Then why do they even bother hitting a CloudFront?

Adam:

A CloudFront edge location. Yeah. It's just an extra top.

Dax:

That's pointless.

Adam:

Can you connect your Lambda function URLs directly to your cloud? You can?

Dax:

Exactly. So that's that's what we realized that all you need to do is deploy a worker that routes to a Lambda function. That way you can keep Node. Js compatibility if you want. And there's this minimizes all the hops and CloudFlare can still do all the caching and the stuff that you expect from So

Adam:

you replace CloudFront with CloudFlare. Yep. And is that a thing that will be easy in SST?

Dax:

Yep. So

Adam:

That would be

Dax:

great. Yeah. So, I think right now everyone's just like, oh yeah, deploy on Vercel or any of AWS and just put Cloudflare in front of it. But you're, like, doing, like, a really extreme thing by doing that. Like Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. I can't, in good conscience, introduce a second CDN. Like, it needs to be the only CDN.

Dax:

2nd hop. Yeah. And then the Versalk is funny because it's like, I'm gonna try to list it out. And I've tweeted this before. User goes to cloud so if you put Cloudflare in front for DDoS Yeah.

Dax:

User goes to Cloudflare, then Cloudflare goes to CloudFront, then CloudFront goes to a Kubernetes node in the, region. Then the Kubernetes node sends back to Cloudflare for to execute middleware. For the middleware, it responds back.

Adam:

Then Wait. Wait.

Dax:

Then the Kubernetes I

Adam:

already I already lost you.

Dax:

Forwards it to AWS Lambda, and then does the actual request and sends it back through when everything goes back to the user. There's, like, 6 hops here. It's pretty insane.

Adam:

Yeah. I missed something in the middle there. That was an AWS data center with a Kubernetes cluster that forwarded to Cloudflare, you said?

Dax:

That that's how Vercel works. Yeah. Because they execute Oh,

Adam:

you're talking about Vercel. That's the missing context there.

Dax:

Vercel executes your middleware in Cloudflare, but, like, you entered in through Cloudflare. So

Adam:

Do

Adam:

you know does Vercel, it's kinda funny. Does Vercel use CloudFront too? Did you

Dax:

They might not. So it's it's possible they don't use it, but then I don't really understand how their caching could work effectively. Because their entry point is not Cloudflare. Their entry point is not Cloudflare. On Vercel.

Dax:

It's not Cloudflare.

Adam:

What is the entry point?

Dax:

I think it's CloudFront.

Adam:

Oh, okay. And they just rename all the CloudFront hit to, like, Vercel hit. Like, if you look at the headers, it's like they just renamed the

Dax:

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is. Maybe they don't have CloudFront, because I know they have a Kubernetes cluster in every region in AWS.

Adam:

Every AWS region? Okay.

Dax:

Yeah. But still like there's clearly something inefficient here because like

Adam:

Yeah, it could be more efficient.

Dax:

Yeah, so we're hoping that so we're gonna do, we've done AWS versions of all our front ends. We're gonna do Cloudflare versions of all our front ends. Once we understand both these things really well, we're gonna see how it makes sense to say, I actually want the AWS version, but skip the Cloudflarence stuff and just

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Give me the Cloudflarence stuff. The regional URL, and I'll put, like, a Cloudflare Worker in front of it.

Adam:

Yeah. Wait. SST will do that for me. Right?

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

I don't have yeah. Okay. When you said I, I wasn't sure who I is in this case. Okay. So what's going on in Twitter?

Adam:

What's going on in the tech world today? We're a week out, a week and a half from React Miami. No. 2 weeks. I don't know.

Adam:

I know. Don't don't do my math. Don't check my math.

Dax:

Did you see that video of our secret project?

Adam:

What? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That you shared. I thought you meant, like, we posted something online.

Adam:

No.

Dax:

No. No.

Adam:

No. No.

Adam:

Oh, man. I'm so excited. We have a secret project, everybody.

Dax:

I could smell it in the video. You can

Adam:

smell it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can smell it.

Adam:

Oh, love

Adam:

this. I love teasing out something that we really aren't gonna talk about. But can we tease out a little more detail that people will know in just a couple weeks at React Miami what this is all about?

Dax:

Oh, yeah. Exactly. We're gonna for those of you that are just dying with anticipation from

Adam:

all the

Dax:

teasing we've been doing There's

Adam:

probably whole subreddits about this, the mystery project.

Dax:

People just go through the types of work. Yeah. They're trying to hack my email. Your wait will end your misery will end next week or I guess 2 weeks from now.

Adam:

2 weeks.

Dax:

Because we'll be announcing what it is on the 1st day of React Miami or somewhere around then if if things go according to plan.

Adam:

Yeah. What is the plan for the days prior to that? Are we well, I guess we're not gonna announce what it is. We're just gonna I know.

Dax:

I know. I'm I'm very skeptical that we're gonna be people

Adam:

in the dark.

Dax:

Right. How

Dax:

in the world okay. So we'll share a little bit more. We're gonna be doing a stream with some people that you may know you might know for the 2 days prior to React Miami.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

And somehow, we're gonna try to avoid talking about what the surprise is while working on the surprise on stream. Yeah. So I don't know.

Adam:

There you go. Tune in. You don't know where to tune in, but just tune in. Oh, yeah. This is fun.

Dax:

What is going on at Twitter? I don't think anything. It's been kinda boring.

Adam:

Oh, good. I like to hear that. When I'm not on Twitter, I like to hear that nothing is happening. I probably peeked at Twitter at least once every day. And if I can't see something in that amount of time, like in a very short amount of time, then I just move on.

Adam:

And on when when there's a lot going on on Twitter, I feel like even if I just peek at it once a day, I kinda catch on that there's a lot going on. There's, like, some people complain about testing or about whether you should I don't know. There's something about that at this all.

Dax:

No. Thank you. That that conversation again.

Adam:

Yeah. Okay.

Dax:

I did

Adam:

I did

Dax:

do the most brutal comment, I think, I maybe ever did.

Adam:

Oh, no. Your most brutal comment, what what was this?

Dax:

Like, I I, like, almost didn't post it. Okay. So I posted a screenshot of our SSC Cloudflare stuff, and I said, this works now. If you beg, I'll release it tomorrow. The first reply I got was from Aaron Francis who said, I'll wait.

Dax:

Thanks. You know, being sarcastic. So I replied being like, it's okay. I figured you're tired of begging people to hire you.

Adam:

Jay with the red car.

Dax:

Yeah. The Jared with the red car.

Dax:

That was good.

Adam:

That was good. Oh, man.

Dax:

Yeah. I I did type it out, and I sat looking at it being like, is this too far? Like, I think Aaron knows I genuinely believe in him. So Yeah.

Adam:

I don't think Aaron's gonna take that wrong. That's so funny. I'm just reading the replies to your dream. Okay. That was good.

Adam:

I'm glad I I'm glad you caught me up on that one at least.

Dax:

Yeah. There's nothing

Adam:

else going on.

Dax:

That was probably the only thing that a role that's gonna happen.

Adam:

I just saw a, a tweet from Prime. I don't even know that made me think of something. He's talking about software devs that can only work 6 hours max. Farmers over for 20 hours sometimes. Why is there a like, if a doctor, like, works really long hours, it's like, that's so noble.

Adam:

But if a software dev works a lot of hours, it's like, you, like, startup bro, you toxic founder person, or you're, like I don't know. It's such a negative thing I feel like you're really into your work and you're a software developer. But, like, other jobs, like, they're the backbone of our civilization. Good job, farmers.

Dax:

The the doctor thing is crazy because, like, I can't believe we do like, every doctor works, especially early on in Korea, works like insane hours that are, like, inconsistent where, like, one day they'll be working at night, the next day they'll be working another day. Yeah. And I'm like, you're dealing with people's lives and, like, precise decisions. Like, there's no way that this is an impact.

Adam:

Have full mental capacities and be well rested and well fed.

Dax:

Yeah. So if they can do it if they can do it at for what they're tasked with, like, I don't wanna hear anyone complaining about software engineers are working long hours. Like, just like, I don't know, people have gotten solved for the last couple of years. I don't think that I feel this type of mindset is going away. I think it was like kind of made up and people kind of lived in this fantasy world and I feel like people are having to see reality a little bit more.

Dax:

So I don't see it as much. And I think like 2 years ago, if I had said something like you gotta work a lot of hours, I think I've been afraid to say that. I don't feel like I feel afraid to say that anymore.

Adam:

Yeah. Well, I do feel like, generally speaking, the tides have shifted quite a bit in the, software development zeitgeist with regards to softness versus hardness, I guess, is what I'll say. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going with that.

Adam:

It's almost political. Like, it feels like things have shifted from left to right a little bit.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

At least in the public discourse and, like, the amount of voices willing to speak up. Maybe nothing actually changed in terms of what people believe, but the predominant voices

Dax:

Mhmm.

Adam:

In our very specific bubble of the world and the Internet seem to have shifted towards like, hey. Actually, maybe this stuff's ridiculous. And I don't know. Some of it, I feel like it's there's a weird Venn diagram with Elon Musk and whether you love him or hate him. There's, like, some weird stuff in there, but, like, ultimately, I do feel like there's been a shift.

Adam:

Do do you sense that? Is that a thing that I made up?

Dax:

I I think so too. Like, when I think about people that are looked at as role models and, like, you people that have influence, I am seeing that it's quite different than what the shape of that person looked like 5 5 years ago. Yeah. Subjectively, I feel like it's better now. I feel like the values and stuff that they talk about are, like, more true.

Dax:

To me, it felt like the things that people were valuing 5 years ago, it felt made up and it, like, didn't really make sense, but we kinda all pretend like it did make sense because we were just in an environment where stuff that didn't make sense could survive for a long time.

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

So I think it's better. I think we've corrected to, like, a pretty good place. I think, of course, nothing ever corrects to the right spot. I'm sure we're gonna overcorrect this

Adam:

over here. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. But, overall, like, things seem much better than they used to be, at least from my point of view.

Adam:

Yeah. I should clarify. When I said when I said left and right, I meant left and right politics in America, which would be a very different thing, I guess, to people who listen to us from other places in the world. I don't know. They just call us all ultra right or something.

Adam:

I don't know.

Dax:

Oh, man. Speaking of, though, did you see this is a great thing to bring up. You probably you probably missed this. Did you see the bill that was proposed in, California?

Adam:

No. I don't think so.

Dax:

There's a bill that was like, if you are and it like very specifically targets like a certain type of worker. It's like targets like office software work. Yeah. That if you're a boss, you're not allowed to send email after 5:30. Like a like a government law.

Dax:

I'm sorry.

Adam:

This is funny. And I was like, is

Dax:

is California trying to join the EU? Like, what's going on?

Adam:

Oh, that's just that's funny to me. I don't know why.

Dax:

Yeah. It's it's just so, like, random and ridiculous.

Adam:

It's so random. And, like, just to think of email, like, them, like, defining email in some legislation, like Yeah.

Dax:

I I I'm sure they have, like, long descriptions of, like, what qualifies, like, also Slack messages, also any kind of electronic communicate you know, it's probably, like, some weird legal email

Adam:

like that. The main thing I thought of was, like, who sends emails anyway? Like, they're just gonna Slack you or whatever.

Dax:

So but here's the funniest part that I think people missed. It was, like, each infraction will incur a fine of $100. So that's. It's just it's just like a small it's in in so many ways, it's just so random. It's such a random thing to like, you're a lawmaker.

Dax:

You're like, what do I focus on?

Adam:

Yeah. Oh,

Dax:

I don't want people getting

Adam:

Work emails.

Dax:

Messages from their boss. Like, that's the thing I'm gonna focus on. Super random and weird to even think the government should be involved in that in any form. And then they're gonna be like, I'm gonna charge them a $100 for each one. It really keeps them a lesson.

Dax:

And it just feels like it just feels so it feels like like it feels like so local. It feels like some, like like, a local council type law.

Adam:

Yeah. Like like an

Dax:

HOA type of thing.

Adam:

This is the state of California.

Dax:

Like, imagine, like like, a worker, like, complaining to some agency and the agency is studying, like, a $100 fine to your boss, and your boss is like, I'm just gonna fire you for dialing on me.

Dax:

Yeah. Right.

Adam:

Oh, man.

Dax:

It's just so naive to think that I'm, like, so obsessed with it. It's, like, super to think that this makes sense in any form. It's also so naive to think, like, passing this law wouldn't immediately have, like, really weird second order effects. Like, you would not be able to enforce this in any way. Yeah.

Dax:

You probably would get some, like, really weird side effect behavior from it.

Adam:

Yeah. Like, what about all the employees that don't start until 5 because they wake up at 3? Yeah.

Dax:

And it's like, why are certain I I forgot how they describe it. Like, why is this only applied to, like, certain types of workers? Like, it doesn't like, why are you, like, randomly focusing on them? So clearly, like, a weird signaling thing where they're like

Adam:

It's like a vendetta.

Dax:

We don't believe that something. They're like they're, like, clearly trying to steal that. We don't believe something. Uh-huh. And, of course, the guy Paul Graham had a funny tweet.

Dax:

The guy that passed is, like, sponsoring a law. I might have my facts wrong. It might be about someone else, but, again, people in this, like, political circle Yeah. He's like, this guy grew up richer than most of the people that he's trying to, like, fight against. Yeah.

Dax:

Of course. This very wealthy, like, 3 PhD type person Yeah. That is now in this in this role. And it's just like, man, you're I feel like that person is so out of touch. Like, I can see how that might have been a thing, like, a couple years ago.

Dax:

Like, I feel like giving the benefit of the doubt. Okay. Like, things are crazy. Like, I see why you think this is a good idea.

Adam:

But When things were nuts. Sure.

Dax:

Yeah. That was really funny.

Adam:

That that reminds me of we had some conversations about politicians just with work coworkers. What how is it a thing in the in the United States of America that politicians are allowed to to trade on inside information. No one else in the world is. It's illegal if anyone does it, but they do it constantly.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

And, like, Pelosi, there's, like, a fund The

Dax:

Pelosi tracks.

Adam:

Tracks all over. Yeah. Like, how insane is that, actually? And there's nothing anyone could do about it because they're never gonna vote to, like, make that illegal because they're all getting rich from it. It's just so stupid.

Adam:

This is out in the open. It's so blatant.

Dax:

I know. It's crazy because, yeah, it's been talked about forever, and it's like, they could just ignore it. They can literally just ignore it. Yeah. Oh, speaking of ignoring, your friend last week, your,

Adam:

Who's my friend?

Dax:

Your friend, your your idol. What's his name? The guy that you get all your all your information about life from.

Adam:

What? What's his name?

Dax:

What's his name? The ice baths and the,

Adam:

Wim Hof? No. Not Wim Hof. Did Wim Hof die?

Dax:

What? Ice bath and the sunning yourself and

Adam:

Oh, Huberman?

Dax:

Huberman.

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, no. I saw there was negative something about Huberman. I thought Dax is gonna love this. I didn't even read it.

Dax:

What happened? I didn't even No. It is it one of those things where, like, I want there to be something negative so I can make fun of you, but I have an I have an underlying principle that's, like, overriding this. I'm like, goddamn it.

Adam:

What what what what was the yeah. I wanna hear your principle too, but what was

Adam:

your I

Dax:

didn't look into it too much, but I think I think it was it was a bunch of stuff about his personal life and how he has, like, 6 girlfriends and, like, he was cheating on a bunch of people and was, like, behaving, like, really weird with all

Adam:

of these

Dax:

these people.

Adam:

Just stop taking relationship advice from him. Oh, wait.

Dax:

Sorry. Yeah. So the online principle is, like, okay. Yeah. That's if if you, like, ask me, like, yeah, that is weird and I could maybe form a judgment about it, but, like like, do we really need to keep doing this where we just, like Yeah.

Dax:

Dig through people's weird personal shit? Like like, he is a really famous person in some weird position. Like, they're all gonna be they're all doing weird shit. Like Yeah. It's not like I don't think anything he did was illegal.

Dax:

There was probably some things you can consider, like, he was a bad person for doing certain things, I'm sure. I don't know all the all all the details. Yeah. But my underlying principle is, like, this is just weird gossip and we pretend like it's something

Adam:

Like it matters.

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly. But the reason I wanted to bring it up is because I think he did the most amazing thing ever. So all this shit was blowing up. Right?

Dax:

Mhmm. For a couple days. Everybody was talking about it. I don't see anyone talking about it today. You know what he did?

Adam:

How did what did he do?

Dax:

He just posted normally. He just, like ignored it? He just ignored it and just posted one of his, like if the next thing he posted was just, like, a normal, like, one of his normal, like, videos about, like, you got us on your balls every 2 2 hours. Whatever the shit that he talks about.

Dax:

Sorry. Oh, it's so good.

Dax:

Because I'm not far off, I bet.

Adam:

Not far. Yeah. I gotta look up, actually, if

Dax:

there's anything about it. Just posted just a, like, a normal thing, and it just it's gone. It's vanished.

Adam:

And Just went away.

Dax:

Had this really funny tweet. He's like, I know a bunch of people that, have been in, like, these PR nightmare scenarios. And, like, he's like, if you pay $10,000 to a firm, they'll, like, do this. You pay a $100,000 for the firm, they'll, like, you know, teach you how to, like, do a public apology, blah blah blah. You pay a $1,000,000 for a firm, they just tell you to, like, ignore it and keep adding like nothing happened.

Adam:

And that's

Adam:

what you did.

Dax:

And it worked. And I think anything he would have done would have just prolonged it. And I think it's Yeah. Really interesting to see that. So, yeah, I was right before because on one hand, I'm like, oh, I wanna go all in and be like human men suck so I can, like, make fun of Adam.

Dax:

But it's like a to me, it feels kinda like

Adam:

a like a cheap shot.

Dax:

But So

Adam:

I I don't, like, I don't care about Huberman, the human being at all, I guess. I just care about him delivering the the the facts from science papers. He's just like an aggregator for me. I don't, like, look at him as, like, some lifestyle guru or, like, a person I wanna aspire to be. I it's transactional.

Adam:

I like the information that he surfaces, to the extent that he keeps digging through the papers and finding what science says the latest science says about certain personal health things, but I'm gonna keep following it. You know? I don't even listen to this podcast, which is funny.

Adam:

And that's

Dax:

what I wanna make fun that's what I wanna make fun of you for. I wanna

Adam:

really just focus

Dax:

on that. I wanna have it pure. Like, I don't wanna I agree. I you that's that's your relationship with it, and I don't think it's any more than that, but I still wanna make fun of that.

Adam:

Okay. Well, you go ahead. Yeah. Make fun of it. It's it's fine.

Adam:

I'm just gonna ignore it.

Dax:

You're a loser. Oh, wow.

Adam:

Mean right now. You don't have to come up with something on the spot. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. I was like, I don't know. Like, you're a stereotype. You're a you're a tech bro stereotype.

Adam:

Okay. You get

Dax:

a little warmer. Your life according to Huberman's information.

Adam:

You know, I'm not you can't offend me. I'm unoffendable. Somehow, I have some maybe I'm a psychopath. I don't know. There's something about my personality that I literally have never been offended in my life.

Dax:

Clearly, you haven't seen your nose.

Adam:

What does that mean?

Dax:

Your nose looks ridiculous. It's it's It

Adam:

looks really too it's

Dax:

way too big for your face.

Adam:

Okay.

Adam:

And your face

Dax:

is too big for your nose at the same time.

Adam:

I've never been offended before. I'm positive you won't do so with my physical appearance, so that's not gonna do it. Sorry.

Dax:

I tried. Yeah. So that that was Huberman last week. It's funny because you remember, like, a while ago I asked if he was married? I was curious.

Adam:

Oh, I

Adam:

think he did ask me that. And he's not, I guess.

Dax:

I got this there now.

Adam:

Multiple girlfriends. Is it even bad to have multiple girlfriends if they don't know about it?

Dax:

Well, it it was weird because, like, he was like, one of them was doing IVF and, like, it just I don't know. It's definitely, like, definitely, like, a weird messed up scenario. But, again, if if no one got hurt or we didn't do anything illegal, it's, like, you know, personal life thing.

Adam:

Yeah. What is that instinct in people to, like, look at people who are in the public eye and try to, like, tear them down? Does it just make them feel better?

Dax:

Journalists, man. It's just it's like the only way a journalist progresses in their career. Like, the majority of journalists

Adam:

Is that like, tear down some public figure? Yeah. Come up with something? Dredge something up? What a terrible existence.

Adam:

I'm sorry if you're a journalist.

Dax:

I know.

Adam:

But, like I

Dax:

I don't I don't care. Journalists? I feel like it's, to some degree, yeah, but I think we're also, in the arena as we're in the arena trying stuff as, what's his face? Jamoth says.

Adam:

So we are journalists? I need to know. Do I need to put this on my business?

Dax:

Journalistic aspects of what we do for sure.

Adam:

Podcast specifically or on Twitter or elsewhere?

Dax:

Everything I got.

Adam:

Just everything. Just everything. Just hand wavy things we do.

Dax:

Yeah. That's, like, that's a side thing. Like, our we have, like, different primary incentives.

Adam:

It's like Huberman has his side side people. I didn't wanna say, like, something more derogatory. I don't know. It's it's just got his main his main woman and his side women. Sorry.

Adam:

I took this way too far. Keep going.

Dax:

So I saw memes about the humor in thing before I knew what people were actually talking about. But the first one that went viral was, like, here's my routine. Wake up at 5 AM. Go out and look at the sun. Have sex with girlfriend number 1.

Dax:

Go have ice bath. Then, like, you know, go do an ice bath. Have sex with girlfriend number 2. And he's like, he did a whole, like, Huberman type day. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. But, you know, if you're rejected with with 6 partners. Yeah.

Adam:

I do love memes. People are funny. I I think, like, the collective, humor of the Internet is unmatched. And if anything good has come out of the Internet, forget whatever advances in human knowledge and research and whatever. The, like, the the memes and the humor are incredible.

Adam:

I do wonder, like, if AI was gonna be, like, good at something, why why, like, why have images generated by Midjourney not made it into to memes? Like, nobody uses AI generated images for, like, a meme. You know what I mean? So like there's something uniquely human about meaning.

Dax:

I think I think Ken Wither said it best. He's like, AI has no Riz. Like, to this day, there's, like, no Yeah.

Adam:

I don't even know what riz is, but it doesn't have it. I see that word a lot lately. What is riz? I literally don't know.

Dax:

I guess it, like, comes in the word charisma, but, like, it just, like, just like the the x factor. You know?

Adam:

It's like when I was wearing that gold chain. It's that a little bit of

Dax:

That was a great demonstration of what not having Riz looks like. Okay. Yeah.

Adam:

I think I sent that back to Amazon, by the way. Sorry.

Dax:

Did you return it? Just reminded. Yeah. Just reminded me.

Adam:

Like, $10. I don't know.

Dax:

Super cheap. I was like, how much does that cost? Are you gonna bother returning? That's funny.

Adam:

I mean, I just don't wanna own it. Like, I return things because I don't want them in my

Dax:

Oh, you're worried that someone's gonna, like, come and see you with it? No.

Adam:

I just it's like we just have a lot of stuff. When you have kids, like, there's just a certain amount of, like, we don't control how much stuff enters our home now because grandparents give them things Oh, the every holiday. Every yeah. It's just like the imports are ongoing. Imports.

Adam:

So the exports are mostly stagnant. And anytime I can get rid of something, it's like, I I gotta get rid of this.

Dax:

Yeah. This is a huge issue that I know me and Liz are gonna have because we hate the aesthetic of most kids' stuff. Like, colorful, like

Adam:

Uh-huh.

Dax:

Like those, like, saturated colors.

Adam:

It's all garbage. It's all just garbage plastic.

Dax:

Garbage plastic. Yeah. So we're like, we're never gonna buy that kind of thing.

Adam:

There's nice wooden equivalents. And you can get them, but then people don't respect that. And they like, your parents will get them all the garbage. And then and then they get attached to the garbage. Like, they don't run it by you, and then, like, suddenly, they have this giant excavator toy, and they can drive around in in the driveway, and you look like an idiot.

Adam:

And they fell in love with it the moment they saw it, and you don't have any choice but to keep it until eventually you leave it on the curb at spring cleanup day, and it just gets taken away and they forget about it. So that was a very specific story.

Dax:

I think giant excavator could be okay. I think that could look nice.

Adam:

No. No. It's really it was not. It didn't look like an excavator. It looked like those, you know, those, like, giant cars we had as kids that you could walk around like Flintstones?

Adam:

They, like, pedal with your feet. It looked like that, but they bolted on this arm that wouldn't even reach the ground. So it moved, but you couldn't actually dig with it. So the kid is immediately pissed. This is my now 9 year old when he was 4.

Adam:

Immediately, it's like, it won't dig. I can't touch the ground with it. So he's just pissed, and it's like, yeah. It's a piece it's a it's garbage. This thing is garbage, and it weighs 70 pounds, and I hate it.

Adam:

And it takes up so much room in our garage. Sorry. This is really specific. I just No. I'm on air.

Adam:

Life with kids. Yeah. You just get all this stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. Looking forward to that.

Adam:

Yeah. It's a good time.

Dax:

Yeah. I said that when I was growing up, I don't think I had a lot of that stuff really. This wasn't a thing. I hate this idea of producing something that's just future garbage, and I feel like a lot of the things on Shark Tank are that. It just reminds me of, like, this thing.

Dax:

Like, someone designed that, and they knew that the end state of that thing is garbage very, very quickly.

Adam:

Uh-huh.

Dax:

And it still gets made.

Adam:

Yeah. It's not good. All the microplastics. Somebody I just read something. I don't know where I saw it.

Adam:

But, like, the average it was it the average or is it some people ingest, like, a credit card's worth of plastic every week?

Dax:

Wow. Look. I'm holding your credit card

Adam:

right now. Week. Yeah. Every week, that much plastic.

Dax:

That much.

Adam:

It's obviously, like, tiny little micro and nanoparticles. But, like, if you bunch them all up. Yeah. I mean That that's insane. Right?

Dax:

Microplastics are everywhere at this point. They're, like, in our bloodstream and stuff. So

Adam:

Yeah. That's what they were saying. Like, they found that all these places that there should not be plastic

Dax:

in our body. There's plastic. We we should just hope that at this point, there's nothing we can do. We're just hoping that

Adam:

it didn't

Dax:

matter. They're

Dax:

a little

Dax:

tiny particles. Yeah, it's like whatever. It actually doesn't do anything.

Adam:

It's like whatever.

Dax:

It's kind of the case with, like, like electromagnetic radiation, right? It's like there's Wi Fi and 4 gs and 5 gs everywhere, but it's kind of like it doesn't do anything. It's well, it's called 9

Adam:

What if it kills you after, like, 50 years and we still don't know yet?

Dax:

In 50 years, I'll be dying anyway.

Adam:

Yeah. But, like, think of the next generation backs. What what do we do?

Dax:

They're gonna be in in VR. They're gonna be on Apple Vision 10.

Adam:

Oh, they're gonna be

Dax:

Their brains are gonna be in jars. Hopefully, yeah, my brains in the

Adam:

Persona? That's actually how we'll exist. The the Apple Vision Pro personas, that's just that's the new they're gonna need to fix the hair. But Did

Dax:

you see the thing that they added now? They had to fix the hair. Well, not not for me.

Dax:

I'm good. Yeah. You're good.

Adam:

They added something to Apple Vision Pro. Is that what you're saying?

Dax:

Yeah. They'd added, like, this collaborative thing where, you can be in your room with, like, a whiteboard or something in front of you and, like, other people show up and they're, like, in the room with you.

Adam:

And it,

Dax:

like, looks like kinda looks like kinda good. I don't think it looks horrible.

Adam:

It doesn't look great. It's kinda good. So you're saying, like, they see what the inside of your room looks like? It's like they're in your room with you?

Dax:

Everyone's, like, in the same room. There's a there's, like, a host.

Adam:

Is the room like a physical room in your house,

Adam:

Or

Adam:

is it like a virtual room?

Dax:

This is a this is a good question. Maybe it's all virtual. That actually makes more sense. Maybe it's

Adam:

all virtual.

Adam:

If you

Adam:

could, like, map your room and, like, people could show up in your room with you.

Dax:

Yeah. And then they see it from every angle. Oh, man. Have you seen the those gouge and splatting thing? I don't know if you've seen that.

Adam:

Right?

Dax:

Gaussian. Gaussian. I mean, I'm I'm messing up I'm messing up all the time.

Adam:

The Gaussian Apache, algorithm.

Dax:

Gaussian. Gaussian spot.

Adam:

I think well, actually, that's one I'm not a 100%. Like, I feel like I've only ever read it. Never heard anyone say it. Got like, Gaussian blur. Is that what you

Dax:

Gaussian blur. Yeah. Yeah. That classic Photoshop reference.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

Dax:

Of course. Hitting that Gaussian blur.

Adam:

I don't know. I gotta cancel my Adobe Creative Cloud. Sorry.

Dax:

Dude, but you're you're gonna get charged for the remainder of the year. That was going around Twitter.

Adam:

I already yeah. No. I've had I've had that exact thing play out. It's a nightmare.

Dax:

Me too.

Adam:

I'm so done with with Adobe. So

Dax:

anyway Splatting. Have you have you seen what that is?

Adam:

No. I'm only familiar with the Gaussian blurring, not the the Gaussian splatting.

Dax:

So the basically the technology for taking a video of something from every angle and then turning that into a 3 d model has gotten insanely good. And I think one of the techniques is called Gaussian Spotting.

Adam:

I don't

Dax:

know how it works exactly, but someone did it of the, the bridge collapse. Someone flew a drone all around it, and it looks insane. Like, you can, like, see every angle. It looks, like, so realistic. Yeah.

Dax:

And it's pretty wild to think that so quickly we had, like, a real time three d immersive, thing we could experience of that scenario. Yeah. Imagine if this stuff gets, like, even more and more real time. If that happened, like, within a couple of days, imagine if it happened, like, within day, within an hour, like, real time. Like, are we gonna have, like, real time just 3 d maps of, like, every location and stuff?

Adam:

That's wild. That'd be super cool. That, like, 3 d scanning technology used to be, like, a very specific thing. And now just, like, phones can do it. Right?

Dax:

Yeah. NVIDIA has that that, app where you can and this is, like, this was made for use for professionals that are, like, trying to make assets or video games and stuff where you can take an object and, like, they, like, guide you through using your phone to capturing that object, and you bring it into 3 d, and it looks very good oftentimes. Yeah. I'm excited by that. I it's funny.

Dax:

I I've always had this weird thing where I'm like, I wanna live in a virtual virtual world, but I want it to look exactly like my actual world, except, like, I can't die in it and stuff. So I'm like

Adam:

I can die in it. Like like,

Dax:

I don't want some, like, crazy fantasy world necessarily. I want, like, my exact house, my exact office, but, like, I I have infinite money. But, like, I'm in my Rosebud.

Adam:

Just so you want the Sims, but, like, virtual reality, and you can live forever in your current environment. And That way, I feel

Dax:

like it's completely real. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. So we just need those little tubes from the matrix where you just, like, live in this vat of jelly and your body lives forever,

Dax:

but, like I'm so into it. Take my electricity.

Adam:

I laugh at the SST. Would you

Dax:

what would you like? Yeah.

Adam:

It is in money. But I thought if you really love your work, you do it even without money. Don't people say that?

Dax:

I'm just saying in a world where that technology exists, I don't think helping people deploy stuff to the cloud is that relevant.

Adam:

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

No. I I I wouldn't work on this. I think I'd work on something. But

Adam:

Our our sidekick. The thing we're we're doing soon. That's what we'd work on.

Dax:

Well, even that, we will work on a virtual

Adam:

That has meaning and purpose.

Dax:

I think so. I think some some form of that could continue to exist. Yeah. So US sims, over COVID, me and Liz made we literally it's it's when we lived in New York. We measured all of our walls, and we recreated our apartment 1 to 1.

Dax:

In

Adam:

The Sims?

Dax:

In The Sims. And it was like I've tried.

Adam:

I've definitely tried making our home in Sims years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess that would have been probably before. So Casey, my wife, was super into the sems, like, in college.

Dax:

Of course.

Adam:

We all had that phase where we're like, oh, I forgot. I'm a human being that's just watching this other human being live life. I forgot to live my own life. I'm just sitting in the corner. All my bars should be at 0.

Adam:

Like I'm red in all possible ways. Yeah. Always, like, had those week long kicks with

Dax:

the Sims.

Adam:

But Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely tried to recreate homes. Oh, you know what? It was a Lego thing.

Adam:

That's what I'm thinking of more recently. We tried to build our home with Lego.

Dax:

Oh, did it work?

Adam:

So there's that too. No. It didn't work. Legos are big and fat and dumb, and you can't make precise things. I mean, if you had

Dax:

enough You should do, like, a one to one scale, then then you can Yeah.

Adam:

Because I say, if you make the scale big enough, you can make it that's funny. Went to LEGOLAND this weekend. Sorry.

Dax:

There's a LEGOLAND in in the middle of nowhere.

Adam:

Kansas City. In the middle of nowhere, really? Is that what you think of me? Where I live?

Dax:

They have to import those LEGOs really far. Yeah. Those Legos come from all over Scandinavia or wherever the hell Legos were born.

Adam:

Yeah. I want you to try and stay in the country because your your track record today with Gaussian and

Dax:

I didn't say Gaussian. I said Gaussian. Gaujan? Gaujan. Yeah.

Dax:

Gaujan.

Adam:

Lego, they're from the Netherlands, I wanna say, which is a different place than Holland. No. Same place?

Dax:

No. It's the same. It's

Adam:

Which one speaks Dutch? Okay. I

Dax:

don't speak Dutch. Yeah. Lego's a cool company. I think it's one of those companies that there's a few companies that are like this where the primitive they made is perfect and then they just rode this, like, infinite merchandising wave that, like, just grows them infinitely, which is like Yeah. There there there's some other company I saw recently that was that same thing where now they're just, like, every sports team, every, like, Disney thing, every, like, you know.

Dax:

Mhmm.

Adam:

Just what

Adam:

And the great thing about, like, the Lego also with the details. Like

Adam:

Mhmm.

Adam:

2 Lego bricks connecting feels nothing like any other imitation

Dax:

Oh, right.

Adam:

Brick. Like, you take any of the other knock off companies, they don't feel the same. They don't connect the same way. They figured out, like, the manufacturing precision and the exact shapes that just, like, satisfyingly push together. You know what I mean?

Adam:

Yeah.

Adam:

So they're, like, really into those little details that they nailed, like, the exact way Playbricks should work. And then they keep coming out with new pieces, like, for new sets. They'll invent new pieces, and they all fit together so well. Like, they all, like, are on this scale that they work together. They can combine in so many different weird ways.

Dax:

Is it backwards compatible with every other brick before? Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. It's really incredible, actually.

Dax:

Yeah. I love step on 1. Like, nothing delivers pain like the Lego.

Adam:

Yeah. That's the ultimate pain. Yeah. I step on them often.

Dax:

It's always wild to me where when there's things like that that have been around for so long that, like, nobody has copied perfectly, It's always it's always, like it's interesting to see that. I think some of the stuff in an iPhone is kinda like that too where

Adam:

Like the touch.

Dax:

Even just if the even even just the pure software stuff, like, which, theoretically, I don't see why this can't be copied, but, like, yeah, that just, like, alludes it's, like, whatever magic that comes together is, like, much more than the code or, like, the physical thing. It's, like, the organization. Yeah. We see that a bunch.

Adam:

Where were we? What were we? We're talking about Lego? Oh, I went to Legoland. We went twice and because the first time we went, we went on a Friday, and I thought because we're gonna be there Friday, Saturday, Sunday in Kansas City.

Adam:

And I thought, like, oh, we go on Friday. Everybody's working. Everybody's in school. There's gonna be nobody there. Turns out Friday was a special Friday.

Adam:

It was a good Friday.

Dax:

If you will. Easter. Yeah. Yeah. It was

Adam:

a holiday. And I have never seen more people packed into one building.

Dax:

It was Oh my god.

Adam:

Nuts. And

Dax:

Wait. LEGOLAND is a building?

Adam:

Yeah. It's an indoor thing. It's like yeah. It's not like Disneyland. It's like, it's just all kinds of LEGO stuff.

Adam:

I don't know. There's place these things you can build and race Nice. Lego cars, and there's some rides.

Adam:

I don't know.

Adam:

It's pretty fun. But it was insane. And both my boys have just never been, like, in huge crowds all that much, and they were just at one point, one of them in tears just over how many people there were. It was just like, I wanna leave. This is overwhelming.

Adam:

Like, there's just people everywhere. And, like, kids screaming and just, like, running over each other, and it was just a nightmare. So we went back, Sunday morning

Dax:

When everyone else is at church.

Adam:

Easter Sunday morning. There's nobody. I'm telling you. We had the place to ourselves. It was amazing.

Adam:

So the just a little, like, heathen tip for people who really wanna go somewhere. Go Easter Sunday morning because everybody is in charge in the United States, especially in the Midwest.

Dax:

That's really funny. Yeah. Liz woke up at 5 AM to go to mass with her family. Actually, that I saw the pictures looked amazing because it was outdoor and, like, the sun they, like, watch the sunrise as part of it, and it looked really insane. Yeah.

Dax:

And I'm sure when you're hearing all this, like, religious stuff, like, being around that, like, actually works well.

Adam:

Like, you feel like, oh, yeah. Like, grand feelings of nature.

Dax:

Yeah. You know?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

But, yeah, I was, like, asleep. Like, I was, like, at some point, there's no way I'm doing that.

Adam:

See you in the sunrise. No, thanks.

Dax:

That's funny. Just all the sinners at LEGOLAND.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you did see anybody there, it's kinda like, yeah.

Dax:

What's up?

Dax:

That's funny.

Dax:

That's funny. Have they been to Disneyland?

Adam:

No. They've not been, they've not been to an amusement park.

Dax:

Are they interested?

Adam:

I don't know if they know they exist. That's the funny thing about having kids that aren't in public school. There's a lot of parts of the world they just don't know exist. A lot of things, concepts they've never been introduced to. And it's our fault.

Adam:

Like, any knowledge gaps they have are gonna fall squarely on me and my wife. Like, oops. I forgot to tell you those things exist. Sorry. Yeah.

Adam:

No. I don't think they know that, like, amusement parks are a thing. That's funny. We went to, like, 6 flags a lot growing up.

Dax:

Me too. We had a 6 flags in in New Jersey.

Adam:

I went I went to Disney World in Orlando when I was, like, 3. I don't remember much of it. I was just taking the kids to Disney World.

Dax:

Yeah. They're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

I'm doing it.

Dax:

Because Disney World just keeps getting better and better and better and better. Like, it's so real now. Like, some of this stuff is just like, oh, I'm, like, in the Star Wars. Like, it's it's real. Like, if like, you you see some of the technology that's, like, in front of your eyes and those things and you just can't figure out how it works at all.

Dax:

Like, some of the rides are just, like, I don't understand what's happening. Like, I feel like I'm in this, and I don't think I'm looking at the screen. I don't know what trick they're doing. And, yeah, it's it's really wild.

Adam:

Oh, I yeah. I wanna I wanna see it for myself now. You got me convinced. I thought I was doing for the kids, but No.

Dax:

No. No. Even as an adult, like, you yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm sure I'm sure in a couple years, both your kids will be able to go on mostly everything.

Dax:

So that would probably be more fun. But,

Adam:

yeah, I should wait till Archer's a little older because he's he's gonna miss out on some of it.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Adam:

We're doing it. But then if I wait too long, the oldest one's too old, and he's gonna, like, this is dumb. No. I guess there's stuff

Dax:

for everybody. It's it's cool. I mean, he might think it's dumb when you decide to go, but then I think he'll enjoy it. It's like, we need to

Adam:

enjoy it when we're there.

Dax:

Yeah. Classic situation. But yeah. Like, some of the new Harry Potter stuff. I mean, I haven't been there since Oh, Harry

Adam:

Potter stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. I haven't been there since, like, 2016, maybe,

Adam:

if I have Wait. Disney World has Harry Potter stuff? Are you sure? It's Universal.

Dax:

I mean, they're

Adam:

they're all Universal.

Dax:

In Florida, they're all, like They're all right. Right next to each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

Like, that stuff, some of the rides oh, man. They have, like so one of the rides, escape from Gringotts, I think it is, or maybe it's the other one. The line, you go through the Hogwarts castle, and they, like, rebuild they built all, like, the iconic spots in it. And they

Adam:

have so cool.

Dax:

They have the portraits that are, like, alive and, like, saying shit

Adam:

and stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. It looks way better than what you would imagine, which is like, oh, yeah. They just put, like, a screen and a picture frame. Yeah. Like, they they did way more than that.

Dax:

And it looks like it looks like way better than it should. Like, that set design stuff that they do. I think they just get the best set design people in the world to come Yeah. And build that stuff. Like, they built, like, Diagon Alley with all the stores and you can, like, get butterbeer and all that stuff.

Adam:

And now I wanna go to Universal. Yeah. This sounds amazing.

Dax:

Yeah. Then then they added Pandora, like, from Avatar, like the the blue people avatar. That's supposed to be really crazy. Like, there's a ride there that everyone said like, goes crazy about. They added a bunch of new Star Wars stuff.

Adam:

Is everything big? Because aren't the Avatar things like bigger? They're like

Dax:

That's true. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

Adam:

Maybe?

Dax:

But, yeah, I imagine I imagine working on that. Like, it's so fun.

Adam:

Oh, yeah. Like, if that's your job. Yeah. But is it like a construction crew? You come in, you do it, and then you kinda leave, and you're done?

Adam:

It's not like an ongoing job?

Dax:

No. So someone was telling me, also Stefan, he he's from Orlando, and he was telling me there's, like, a lot of software engineers that live there because they all work at Disney.

Adam:

Interesting.

Dax:

So there's a lot to do, I guess, across the board there. Yeah. That's just fun. Like, you just try to make fun stuff for people.

Adam:

Yeah. Okay. I'm I'm making a we're gonna make a trip Yeah. To Orlando. We should probably we should probably end this podcast.

Adam:

2 hours feels psychologically like a lot if we throw a 2.

Dax:

It's been 2 hours.

Adam:

An

Adam:

hour and 50 something. And I feel like if the if the podcast was 2 hours long, the people are gonna nope out real quick. They're like, you know what? I'm gonna skip this one.

Adam:

I see

Dax:

what you're saying. When I see the length. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. But if it's an hour 51, it's that old, like, sales trick, you know. A dollar 99, they'll never know the difference. We're gonna Trojan horse our 2 hour conversation in there.

Adam:

Okay. If you're listening to this, if you've been listening for an hour and 52 minutes and you haven't rated our podcast on your favorite podcast platform, how dare you? That come on. Or subscribe or something. Do something to show that you you love this podcast.

Adam:

Because if anyone would listen to us offer an hour and 51 minutes, I feel like you must love this. You must love listening to us.

Dax:

Write a review. Write a lengthy review

Adam:

Yes.

Dax:

But only compliments.

Adam:

Yeah. Only good things.

Dax:

Not just so feedback.

Adam:

It was you.

Dax:

Not with the people at the moment.

Adam:

No. No. We don't need feedback. We know we're awesome.

Dax:

Okay. Just say good things and confirm all of that.

Adam:

Yeah. That'd be great. Affirmation. Okay. Let's go.

Adam:

Alright.

Adam:

I don't

Adam:

even have to pee. I guess I don't pee anymore. I don't know why.

Dax:

That's good. We do it on now. Jesus.

Adam:

It is. It's like gives us a little bit more runway here, but can't figure out why. I'm gonna get it checked out. If I could be too much you're

Dax:

not peeing every hour, Adam. This is like progress

Adam:

in your health. Good. So I'm yeah. Okay. Health is improving.

Adam:

Okay. Cool. Alright. See you next.

Dax:

Yep.

Creators and Guests

Adam Elmore
Host
Adam Elmore
AWS DevTools Hero and co-founder @statmuse. Husband. Father. Brother. Sister?? Pet?!?
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Dax Raad
Host
Dax Raad
building @SST_dev and @withbumi
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Chris Enns
Editor
Chris Enns
I edit podcasts so you don't have to.
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