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PlanetScale, Devin and AI Future, Cameo, and Picking Movies for Adam

/ 01:37:15/E84
Adam:

How crazy if Dax's cat just died in the middle of our episode. I realize now I can just talk because this is gonna be on YouTube. It won't make it on the podcast, but it will be on YouTube. So I can just talk I just talk to YouTube when you leave. Yeah.

Dax:

I always forget that's a thing. People are talking about New Jersey on Twitter. I have to take a look at it. You see Brian Flores' tweet, remix, reacts New Jersey.

Adam:

I saw that. Yeah.

Dax:

It made me wonder if he was listening to our podcast.

Adam:

Well, I didn't know if, if that was a positive thing or a negative thing. Like

Dax:

It has to be a positive thing because

Adam:

he's talking about Remus. He's talking about yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he knows the positive side of New Jersey.

Adam:

Not everyone does.

Dax:

Yeah. I replied, like, oh, so it's super underrated, but actually pretty sick. Like, that's I thought it was the armpit of the US. So is remix the armpit of React?

Adam:

See, I thought New Jersey before our conversation with Ken, I thought it was the Arkansas of New York, which is, like, meet Missouri's Arkansas. Does that make sense? So Arkansas is kind of like to people in Missouri, which I'm realizing now, it's funny because Missouri sucks so bad. Like, the the fact that we think we can, like, shit on anything is funny. But if we do, it's Arkansas.

Adam:

And then Australia has New Zealand. I'm sorry. I just offended whole people groups. I'm sorry. But I thought New Jersey was that to New York.

Dax:

It I mean, yeah. It is. Like, a third of it, for sure.

Adam:

But it shouldn't be. Maybe is what we're saying.

Dax:

Yeah. Okay. It's funny. Well, fine. I have to rewind a little bit.

Dax:

You said Arkansas. In my head, whenever I hear Arkansas, my in my brain, it goes, Arkansas. Because at some point, I realized it's just it's just Kansas

Adam:

With an r on front? Yeah. Pirate Kansas. Yeah. R Kansas.

Adam:

Oh, that's 1.

Dax:

And then 2, there is this funny dynamic of, like, no matter how, you know, low on the totem pole you are,

Adam:

like, you can always find someone low.

Dax:

Yeah. Liz pointed this out the other day because she ran into, like, a homeless guy, and he was, like, in Dunkin' Donuts. And there was another homeless guy there, and the other homeless guy had left. The first homeless guy started, like, saying, like, kind of racist stuff about the other homeless guy.

Adam:

So it

Dax:

was kinda like he's like this guy's like, okay. I'm homeless, but at least I'm not homeless and black. Like, that's like his he, like, creates, you know, like, a mini hierarchy within that. So that's that's you guys in Missouri and Arkansas. In my head, it's just, you know, one big circle.

Adam:

Before you before you answer the New Jersey thing, could you just tell me, like, before you heard me say that, would you have, like, rated Missouri or Arkansas higher than the other, either one?

Dax:

I think I would have rated Missouri higher because but that's just because I know about it. And I, like, I know more about it. And that's Yeah. Yeah. Partially related to you because I know you, but then, like, I know Kansas City and, like, you know, all that stuff.

Dax:

I know the Ozarks, so I definitely heard of those things. Yeah.

Adam:

Okay. The Ozarks go stretch into Arkansas too. But and Arkansas has good parts. Like, Northwest Arkansas is great because all the Walmart money.

Dax:

Wait. Is that where they were founded?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Bentonville, Arkansas. They've got, like, XNA. The airport there is, like, bigger than it should be because the Walmart people just fly to New York constantly, I guess.

Dax:

Well, that puts that puts Arkansas ahead of Missouri for me then.

Adam:

Yeah. I guess so. Northwest Arkansas probably tips the scales. The rest of Arkansas is like the Ozarks. I mean, it's basically, like, it's the Ozarks.

Adam:

And then Missouri has Kansas City. And Saint Louis is kind of like I don't know. I'm not a big fan of Saint Louis. Just never really enjoy it's just very rundown. Like, the downtown area in Saint Louis is not great.

Adam:

Kansas City is much more, like, up and coming. A lot of development. It's nice. Anyway Yeah. That's enough about Missouri.

Dax:

Well, there's that quote. There's that quote. There's I'm gonna butcher it, but something like there's 2 great cities in America, New York and San Francisco, and everywhere else is Cleveland. And

Adam:

that's kinda Oh, that's good.

Dax:

And that's kinda been my experience with other, like, quote, unquote cities. You know? Yeah. They're, like, kind of the same format. I there are, like, little like, there are, like, different pockets.

Dax:

They're a little bit different. But, largely, like, America like, every state has, like, their one big city. It it like, you know, it's just Cleveland over and over again.

Adam:

That's funny. Okay. New Jersey so but New Jersey, you're gonna

Dax:

I yeah. I I know we talked about this with Ken, but I just wanna reiterate, New Jersey is a fantastic place.

Adam:

Yeah. I need to give it a look.

Dax:

I will agree that it's not broadly fantastic. Like, you have to find the pockets But there are like some crazy nice pockets. Like, where I grew up I think is like looking back after all these years as like a kid growing up in America, like where I grew up I was from Middle Swan Ward, Wheeling, New Jersey, that's it was, like, almost like a dreamland. Like, it was it was a perfect place to to grow up.

Adam:

Yeah. Wow. So High praise.

Dax:

New Jersey is great, and a lot of people choose to live there, especially rich people, and that's how you know. And people that are rich in the Ozarks, they usually move to New Jersey eventually.

Adam:

Interesting. Okay. But rich people don't choose to live in the Ozarks, So that's how you know. That's how you know.

Dax:

That's why it's so affordable. Damn it.

Adam:

Yeah. Exactly. Okay. We got we got a lot of stuff to talk about. And where do you wanna start?

Dax:

I guess we're a little behind on some things. Behind. Yeah. Yeah. Because the PlanetScale stuff we haven't talked about, and that already feels like 2 new cycles.

Adam:

Ago. Yeah. Yeah. The news cycles, they move fast in our circles.

Dax:

So I guess we start with that. Yeah.

Adam:

Let's start with that.

Dax:

I'm really happy that Aaron Francis got fired. I think that guy sucks. And I'm glad to see him without a job. And his family with his 4 kids, I'm really excited to see them suffer.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like you. I know you're you're messing around, but it does kinda sound like you to to rejoice in someone suffering.

Adam:

I don't yeah.

Dax:

Like him, yeah, I would probably be rejoicing.

Adam:

I think the, yeah, the Aaron situation, it was really hard for me to feel bad. And I and I've talked to Aaron, but, like, I I'm not just saying this, behind his back. But it was hard for me to feel that bad because I just feel like, good for him. Like, he's gonna do so well. Whatever he chooses to do, he has so many options that people you know, you saw the outreach.

Adam:

Like Yeah. But it it's just it is pretty surprising. Like, the whole PlanetScale thing, and I I feel like I've ranted online about this a lot, so I don't wanna just rant on the podcast too. The whole thing, like, just felt like why why is there so much discourse around this? Like, just a startup made a decision and did a thing, and that happens.

Adam:

But I think the thing with Aaron is, like, that is the one decision they made that I'm like, man, how could that not have been an ROI? Like, how is that guy Yeah. It's a little weird. Just growing your YouTube? Like, that one is tough for me, but I don't know.

Adam:

Like, I'm not I'm not internal to PlanetScale. I don't know,

Dax:

you know,

Adam:

all the things that go into it.

Dax:

Like, I know they're not stupid.

Adam:

So I know they're not stupid. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But it does just seem like any organization that's like, hey.

Adam:

It'd be great if we had a YouTube channel can just, like, scoop him up and suddenly have a YouTube channel.

Dax:

Like, literally, nobody has pulled that off ever. And he's like, you're the only guarantee that you would. Yeah. I'm excited for him too. I had a call with him also, and I genuinely feel like he's gonna look back on this in a couple years and be like, wow, I would have totally capped myself if I ended up just sitting there.

Dax:

Especially if he goes independent, like, I feel like he's gonna I wouldn't be surprised if he's, like, quadrupling his income in a couple years.

Adam:

That that's how I feel. And and that's my advice is, like, just do the independent thing because, like, there's no ceiling, all the reasons that we've talked about. I do wonder, like, I'm I I follow the NFL. I've mentioned this on the channel. It's kind of out of character for me.

Adam:

I mean, not out of character in the sense that I live in the Midwest and, like, we're all depressed. And what do we do? We just watch sports?

Dax:

But out of character sports company, like Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. So definitely not out of character. Okay. I follow the NFL, whatever, unapologetically.

Adam:

Sometimes I'm embarrassed by it. I don't know why. But in the NFL, it's like free agency right now, and I feel like Aaron is a free agent. And it's like the first time I I've felt this way about somebody being unemployed, like, oh, man. He can go get the bag.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. He could just, like, go sign whatever big deal, because he's gonna have all these opportunities at once. So that is tempting, I would imagine, on his side to, like, explore that.

Adam:

And I know he he's gonna explore it. But, yeah, the independent thing, man, it's just hard to beat.

Dax:

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. So I feel good for Aaron in that way. I mean, it sucks to get laid off. And I'm sure with 2 new babies and all that, the stress of of all that, it's tough. And it sounds like you bought a house.

Adam:

Yeah. There's a lot that goes into it. But, yeah, like you said, 2 years from now, I think he'll look back and say, good thing, because look where I am.

Dax:

Yeah. Going back to the actual thing. So just to just to recap, so PlanetScale did a few things. They, laid off a bunch of people, mostly in marketing and sales, but also some engineers. They also got rid of their free tier and they put it all together in one post announcing this and also mentioning that these actions, they can now, you know, chart a path to profitability, which means they're now a real company Yeah.

Dax:

And they can work on this forever, which is a big milestone. Again, it's a point where you can work on something forever is is huge. And, obviously, like, you can get there earlier or later depending on how many people you have and things like that. So that's a big milestone. I think anyone that's starting a company, like, getting to that is, like, your mindset is just totally different.

Dax:

You're, like, you can kinda, like, relax a little bit and, like, really focus on doing big things as opposed to, like, you know, just trying to, like, stay alive.

Adam:

You can make different decisions. Like, you can have a more long term mindset because, like, yeah, you're not beholden to Yeah. Investors in that whole cycle. And I think what you said real company is very important for people to understand. Most of the companies, especially in the dev tools space, most of these companies you interact with are not real companies in the sense that, like, they could just go away.

Adam:

And I I don't know. Like, I think there's this feeling that people like, we've all gotten not just founders, the entrepreneur side of it, like, feeling, entitled to capital. But I think as users of all these things, we're just like, yeah, there should be lots of start ups, and they should all just be doing well. And, like, I don't know. It's like a customer we've we've gotten spoiled too by the VC cycle, but, like, it's different.

Adam:

It's different when you're profitable, and that that it's like now we can kinda count on PlanetScale in a way you can't count on just any database company that hasn't gotten there yet. It's like a big long journey.

Dax:

That makes sense. And then I think you by the way, I've been I've been I really liked your Twitter the past week.

Adam:

I know I've, like, mentioned a

Dax:

few times when I say to you directly, like, it's good. It's good. You're like Is

Adam:

it is it good? Because I don't know if it's good for my mental health. No. No. No.

Adam:

No.

Dax:

No. I'll I'll point to I think you're right. Yes. That's definitely a factor, but I think what I saw is that you like tweeted a bunch of things that like were very like genuine is what you felt, and then, like, it angered a lot of people. But I also felt like through that chaos and stimulus, you then also had, like, really good things to say.

Dax:

I feel like you're you're always like, I never really need to say, but I feel like your your tweets this past week or whatever, beyond just the ones that were just, like, you know, making people annoyed, I feel like just, like, good stuff came out of that

Adam:

chaos. Keeping people annoyed. So I've been on Twitter more the last week, for reasons unrelated to tech or Twitter, like, for family reasons. So I've not been working much the last week. Do I do I say stuff like this in the podcast?

Adam:

I don't even know. I don't know. Families are hard. Like, life is hard. Families are hard.

Adam:

And, like, if you're a parent and you're listening, I'm gonna say it. I'm just gonna say what happened because why not? If I can't just, like, be

Dax:

Mhmm.

Adam:

Myself on the podcast, when can I be myself? You know? I guess not on the podcast. The rest of my life that I don't record, I guess I could do myself that.

Dax:

But for this one hour, if

Adam:

you can't be yourself, then what's the point of anything? What's the point of anything? Yeah. Raising kids is hard. And sometimes it gets so hard that, one of you just wants to leave, and one of you just leaves for days.

Adam:

So Casey, she she needed a break, and I totally get it. Not, like, for me, I don't think. I mean, kind of for me, but, like, from the family situation. So she spent some time in Kansas City. It was impromptu.

Adam:

I was recommending it. Like, this was not like she just left us. But it it was very much needed, for her to just unplug from it all. I got to experience a few days with the boys and why she needed to unplug. Now, honestly, I need to unplug badly.

Adam:

It's it's a lot. And I I don't know. Sometimes, like, I think, man, how do people with more than 2 kids do it? Like, we just have 2 kids. How do people with 4 kids do it?

Adam:

I think not every kid is the same. And our 4 year old is a challenge. And I'm not gonna say anymore, I guess, because, I don't know. If these podcasts live forever, I don't want him, like, in adulthood to have therapy because he heard this on the pod I don't know. But anyway, yeah, every kid's different.

Adam:

And right now, we got we got a challenging dynamic with the 2 of them. So all that to say, I've just been dad for a few days. And when I don't have my work to distract me, I guess. I but it did make me realize, like, I can have things to say if I just sit and think about it for 15 minutes. Like, I just never really devote time to, like, thinking about what I've learned in my career or what I have to add to the conversation.

Adam:

It's just kinda more like scrolling when I get free time. I I look at Twitter, but I don't really think about that kind of stuff. Anyway, yeah, I thought about stuff. I said stuff. It also helped like, when there's people talking about things that I do feel like like, I've done the startup thing.

Adam:

For 10 years, I've been heavily involved with the startup life. So when people start talking about startup things, they're just criticizing founders. And it's like, what do you know? Like, what like, nobody that's not, like, literally in his inner circle right now knows why he made decisions he made. Like, there's what you say publicly, but, like, you're not part of it.

Adam:

You have no idea.

Dax:

I know. So yeah. So I think you were pointing out, like, why is everyone okay. So there's definitely this performative air of being upset. And I think that's kinda what you were talking about where everyone is, like, so upset and so, like, outrage.

Dax:

And it's just like but then, like, you take a step back and we and we talked about this before we take that behavior so for granted like someone said something about people are upset. When you take a step back and you're like

Adam:

I actually don't know anyone in

Dax:

my personal life that, like, would read that and be upset and, like, say a bunch of things. It's actually really extremely weird behavior to, like Yeah.

Adam:

Nothing to do with you. Okay. Maybe, like, maybe if

Dax:

you know someone that's like we knew people that were affected and, like, you know, it, like, made me worried for them. Yeah. Yeah. But beyond that, it's just, like, just such a random event in, like, the universe and people are like they have all the expectations of it. It's like they're lining up, and they're like, okay.

Dax:

It's my turn to talk. Here, why you let me down. You should be doing this.

Adam:

For me to feel better, like,

Dax:

you need to say x, y, and z. You forgot to say this thing. And if you don't say that thing, that means you're a bad person. It's just like people lining up taking their turn like saying that and it's just like we just accept that as so normal and like are you even PlanetScale customers? Like, that's the first thing or just, like, an opportunity to, like, go say the same thing you'd always say.

Dax:

So I think you talked about that and that was, like, super frustrating. And then people that were, like, giving them advice on what they should do, and it was just like, I tweeted the other day. I was like, you know, for years, I've been asking engineers to, like, think more about business and care more about it. And this past week, you all showed me what that looks like, and I regret asking because you guys are really stupid. You're really bad at business.

Dax:

Like, there are general ideas that are true. And the thing that bugs me the most is when someone takes a general idea and just applies it generally without thinking of the specifics.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

So this case, I should give you the perfect example because I think what PlanetScale did is actually in contradiction with one of my, like, first principles that I really believe in. So I very much believe in sacrifice everything except for making your product accessible. Like, make yourself as widely as accessible as possible. Give people little reason to not try it. Give people little reason not to invite other people to use it.

Dax:

That maximizes the chance that someone will fall in love with your product. Even if it's not for them, they'll try it and they'll refer someone else to it later. Like, I really believe in those dynamics. So I will sacrifice everything before I, like, put up walls and barriers. So you can see that Plan Scale removed their free tier.

Dax:

That's a kind of in violation of one of my first principles. But, you know, the details matter. Right? This is a general principle I believe in. When I can't apply this principle, I'm usually willing to change the business itself and what we're working on itself to, like, adhere to this thing because I, like, so believe in it.

Dax:

I can see why for them, maybe maybe it's not, like, a thing that really drives the way they see things. And 2, it's also not black and white. Right? They got rid of their free tier. Now the entry ticket price is $40 a month.

Dax:

That's basically free for any real company.

Adam:

If you Yeah.

Dax:

If you're, like, building a real product trying to make 1,000 of dollars a month, tens of $1,000 a month, 100 of $1,000 a month, $40 a month as an entry price is not insane. It's, like, pretty reasonable. Yeah. It's basically free for any serious thing. So I I can see black and white, like, okay.

Dax:

Yeah. It's not free, but, like, I I can see why it's, like, not that extreme either. The second thing is there's a lot of technical details here that make this actually very interesting and nobody bothered to, like, really think about that stuff. They just jumped right right to, like, the generic comments that everyone makes. If you think about PlanetScale as a database company, they showed up and it was really odd because they're a new database company, but they started off, like, handling these, like, giant workloads.

Dax:

Like, they didn't, like, really start with small stuff and they went the other way. They, like, had the giant workloads, and they, like, brought went down market. I forgot who they had, like, that one big profile customer. I forgot who it was. But, and, like, he said that their average ARR per customer is, like, $217,000.

Dax:

It's, like, massive.

Adam:

I saw that.

Dax:

Yeah. And the question is why. The reason is every other database a relational database service like RDS, like Neon, like most of everything we've seen, they have this architecture where you decouple storage from compute, which means you have, like, a storage layer that's totally separate that handles replication and just stores the data, and that scales independently. And you have a compute layer, which spins up resources to, like, run queries and, like, run the actual database. And what's great about this model is it gives you a lot of ability to handle small to medium, even like largish loads at high efficiency, right?

Dax:

Because if someone's not using the database, like, so like NetEone Neo offers like a serverless thing, like RDS is a serverless thing.

Adam:

Yep.

Dax:

You can easily scale the compute up and down because it's totally decoupled from from the storage. But this architecture is really bad for the highest, highest workloads. For the biggest workloads, you do need a stateful system. You do need, like, the PlanetScale setup with the test and and the sharding and all of that. So PlanetScale showed up because they were filling this weird gap in the market where AWS will refer people to PlanetScale when they grow out of RDS.

Dax:

Like, that that Yeah. Is just something that happens. So that's very interesting, but then they're just a good company. They're, like, good company with talented people. So they thought of features that are good for everyone at any scale.

Dax:

Right? Like, the branching, Yep. The database recommendations I launched a few weeks ago, and they kinda went down mark and offer that. So for companies like us, like an SST, we use them. We pay them, like, $3 to $400 a month.

Dax:

Nothing crazy, but because those features are great. So it's very interesting because, yes, they're really focused on this big scale problem, but they also ship stuff that anyone could have shipped and they haven't. Yeah. So that's always very attractive. And I see why bringing that all the way down to free tier, the architecture just doesn't just doesn't work.

Dax:

You can't sleep people's databases on architecture. So Yep. Okay. I get it. I get why this is very challenging to do everything.

Adam:

Yeah. Can we can we just spend a minute and just talk about the free tier era here? Because I I do think, like, there's this whole ecosystem of people now, and I I can't help but just associate it with the 0 interest phenomenon. Mhmm. But there's this whole, like, world of, like, junk projects.

Adam:

And it's some of it's there's an education element to it. Like, everyone that teaches can now just, like, show you how you can deploy a thing and cost it costs nothing. It's free. It's all within the free tier of these 5 different, you know, start up SaaS things.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

So there's this, like, whole world now where there's this expectation from people building their first projects that everything should be free, and I can deploy everything for free. And that that wasn't the case, like, 10 years ago. Like, there wasn't this world where you didn't have to think about like, if you wanna deploy something, you had some hard work ahead of you. Like, you could build everything on your local machine maybe, and it's a Rails app or whatever. But then it's time to deploy it.

Adam:

And, like, okay, now I have to actually deploy a database. What am I gonna use? Now it's just like it's a given that there are choices. They're all free, and you can just deploy your thing and and send it you know, send a link to your relative, and you've got a website up there. I think a lot of that stuff could just go away.

Adam:

Yeah. Like, it could all like, the the money could run up, and all the free tiers could get too expensive to maintain for all these companies, or the companies just don't exist in 5 years. Like, it's very possible that, like, that whole ecosystem yeah. It's all just kinda like a big Jenga puzzle, and the last block's gonna fall eventually. Not and I don't even think PlanetScale, like, I think their situation is just so different, and they do seem like a more real company.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

The irony is everyone's criticizing them like, oh, typical VC backup. They're, like, one of the few companies in the space that are actually gonna make it, it seems like. They're so much further ahead than everyone else.

Adam:

I I think of, like, the Amazon and the dotcom burst. Like, in 2000, like, a couple companies made it out of all that, and Amazon was one of them. And, like, any of these eras, there's gonna be, like, the standout companies that did things right and that figured it out. And then there's just gonna be a whole lot of stuff go by the wayside. And I I do think it'd be good if you're in that indie hacking space, kinda like go ahead and set the expectation that this could just be a unique phenomenon in a a unique era where there's all these free tools.

Adam:

And if that goes away, what's your plan? Like, do you know how to deploy something if Vercel doesn't exist? Not saying Vercel won't exist, but it might not exist. Who knows? In 5 years.

Dax:

Yeah. It's like the math is so simple. You know? You have, a customer acquisition cost.

Adam:

You have the lifetime value of

Dax:

the customer and then whatever like, that just has to play out. Giant companies like AWS or Cloudflare, obviously, their free tier is backed by something totally different because these are, like, massively profitable companies that are, like, making a big amount of money. So if they're, like, we're gonna spend 5% of this on free tier, like, the math all all makes sense. Yeah. For companies that are not that, it's like negative math because you're, like, front loading that with VC money.

Adam:

Yeah. It's it's just a bunch of old

Dax:

guys. Yeah.

Adam:

It's a bunch of old white guys that had a lot of money that are funding all this. And, eventually, that money goes away.

Dax:

That's so funny, man. There was nothing better than living in New York in, like, the mid 20 tens because just VC subsidize everything. You wanna take a ride, you call an Uber Pool. It costs you $3 to go anywhere. The Uber Pool algorithm doesn't work, so they never actually pull you.

Dax:

So it's a private car for yourself anyway. It really costs nothing. You wanna take a scooter? It's free. You wanna order delivery?

Dax:

It's free. Like, it was amazing. And to be honest, I think, like, that was a time in my life where I didn't have, like, a lot of money. So being able to rely on these things, like, definitely, like, leveraged my, like, career and, like, my life. I remember I mean, this this was me scamming things, but, delivery.com, $5 free when you sign when you're if you refer someone, you get $5 and they get $5.

Dax:

It's something like that. Right? But, like, they don't check anything. You just make a new account every time. And, and so I just made a new account every time, and I got, like, some money off.

Dax:

So, like, over the over, like, the 2 years I was doing it, and it's a lot of money. They tried to stop it by making it so you couldn't pay with PayPal. You had to pay with your credit card, and they would check to see if, like, the credit cards have been used before, and they would reject the the thing. But they only hid the PayPal thing in the front end, so I could just unhide it. And then it kept going, and I'm just like I'm like in their database somewhere where, like, they're like, wow.

Dax:

Like, our referral program is so successful. Like

Adam:

but it's

Dax:

it's not really. Because, again, LTV of that customer, 0.

Adam:

$0. Yeah. Yeah. That's the the thing that's gonna come home to roost eventually is, like, how much of these people's customer base, in air quotes, is like a $0 lifetime value. Like, how many people just use the free tier?

Adam:

And I've shipped dummy projects to these things and never paid some of these companies. And, like, there's a lot of people doing that. Do you have, a fan going or something? Is there

Dax:

It's it's my it's it's every time somehow the they're, like, blowing my lawn or whatever.

Adam:

Oh, it's the lawn.

Dax:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. It's like in and out. So it's like there's a noise gate or something that's there it goes. Or they're just actually starting and stopping. Sorry.

Dax:

I think they're just starting and stopping. He's like.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That's how leaf blowers work.

Adam:

Yeah. I don't know. I just I do think, like, there's so much still that's just a house of cards waiting to fall. And I'm not trying to be pessimistic. I feel like I'm pretty optimistic.

Adam:

But, like, I still think the after effects of the post zero interest rates, have not really come yet. Like, I feel like we're still waiting for all that to it takes years for that money to dry up, especially when these companies raise 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars, some of them. Like, you can go a long time giving people free stuff, and then eventually, you gotta actually have a business that works.

Dax:

Yeah. And it's and this is, again, going back to me asking engineers to, like, think more about business. This is actually it's something you should think about when picking vendors because

Adam:

Mhmm.

Dax:

It's it's totally fine to pick an early stage company or, like, a startup as something you're gonna rely on, but you have to understand their setup. Like

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

You have to forecast, I can see this working out. Like, I this makes sense. Like, I of course, there's a chance they're gonna fail, but it's not, like, totally ridiculous. There's a few of these companies that are somewhat popular where I'm like, there's no there's, like, such little chance they work out. Like, I think people really underestimate what it takes to build a depth to a company that is sustainable.

Dax:

I think most people think, oh, like, I've heard of them, and they're popular. I don't know what people are talking about them. That seems really hard. Going from 0 to get there to there is really hard. Then people see them, they're like, oh, they made it.

Dax:

Like, they're gonna they're gonna make it. Yeah. But it's you you really have to address, like, such a such a large audience and really capture such a huge population to really justify, like, a venture scale level company. And, yeah, it's why, like, I mean, look at our setup, everything's on AWS. The one thing that's not on AWS is on PlanetScale and PlanetScale happens to be like the only company that's really making money in this space.

Dax:

And that's what it takes. Like, I really need to see that level of, you know, like future.

Adam:

Yep. Is that enough on Planetskill?

Dax:

Yeah. What's next?

Adam:

What yeah. What's next? There's Devon.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

The name. I just love the name. I know. Like, of all the things that could've

Dax:

been. Bad. Yeah.

Adam:

I'm actually surprised they didn't go with, like, a gender neutral name, to be honest.

Dax:

That's a good point.

Adam:

It's 2024. I don't know.

Dax:

Can Devon can Devon be a girl name?

Adam:

Oh, maybe. Maybe it is, and I'm just an idiot. Maybe I'm the gender neutral. Me. I'm the problem.

Adam:

Now I'm googling it.

Dax:

Yeah. I feel like it's one of those names that can go both ways.

Adam:

It is a gender neutral name. Look at me.

Dax:

Just assuming now. Look at that.

Adam:

I just assumed it was a woman's name. What an idiot. Okay. Just kidding. I assumed there's a man's name.

Dax:

Give me give me a second. My cat is getting a super weird noise. I don't know if you have cats before, but they make sometimes the weirdest, most disturbing noises.

Adam:

Yeah. It's been a long time. I had one, as a kid. I had multiple cats as a kid. And, yeah, they make noise, like, the hacking stuff.

Dax:

Yeah. She was she was doing a hurt furball thing. Yeah. It just sounds like a possessed human. They sound like very human at times.

Adam:

Like, it's really weird. There was a there was a cat in

Dax:

the empty lot, and sometimes it, like, screams at night. And it's like this

Adam:

I I think I heard

Dax:

a cat scream. Shrieking. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. We've got, this is unrelated, kind of. We've got neighbor kids that all play, like, in all the backyards, and a couple of them scream in ways that, like, you think a child is being harmed.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

But it's like their fun scream. And every time my heart drops, like, what kid just got attacked? And then, oh, yeah. That's just them having fun. It's really it's tough.

Adam:

It's like the boy here cried wolf. I kinda wanna be like, listen. You make a scream like that, like, when something's really wrong. But, like, I don't wanna talk to somebody else's kid. You know?

Adam:

I don't know. Know. Anyway

Dax:

Yeah. When you live in a city, sometimes you take a step back and you realize, like, you're just hearing very often, you'll hear, like, shrieks of pain and stuff. Like, there's people sounds like pain, and you just never think it twice you're so used to hearing it.

Adam:

No big deal. People suffering, dying, and Yeah. Just the city life. You know?

Dax:

This is very normal.

Adam:

What what happens here, just yet, last night, you just hear gunshots. But it's

Dax:

Oh, really?

Adam:

It's not like the city where you hear gunshots. It's like somebody shooting their rifle at, like, gallons of water or something. Who knows? But That

Dax:

used for fun?

Adam:

Yeah. Just like for fun. But we're in this rural area. And then sometimes it's like and then it's like well, that could have been somebody shooting somebody. I don't know.

Adam:

Like, somebody might have just gone off. Like, I don't know if I should be concerned. Yeah. And then you wait for sirens or something. For the

Dax:

record, I've you don't hear gunshots in the city. That's, like, not

Adam:

Oh, really? That's how it's portrayed in the video games and the movies.

Dax:

No. I mean, it depends on is where you live. But Yeah. I I don't think I've really ever heard that.

Adam:

That's nice. Okay. Well, I hear those in the Ozarks. And I think it's just people hunting or having fun. You never know.

Adam:

When it starts picking up, the the pace, I start wondering.

Dax:

Do you ever hear it and starts to get closer and closer? That's when you get a worry.

Adam:

Oh, jeez. No. I do listen for sirens, though. Anyway

Dax:

Devin. Yes. Tell me your thoughts on the Devin demo.

Adam:

The Devin demo. You know, the the main thought I had this is stupid. But the main thought I had when I saw the Devon demo is, look how happy this guy is. That engineer

Dax:

Yeah. I know.

Adam:

I just wanna, like, know that guy and Yeah. Hang out with him because he just looks so he's, like, got this look on his face. Like, yeah, we're awesome. Look at what we just did. But he's just, like, genuinely happy about it.

Adam:

I don't know. Wait. Did you see the video they posted of

Dax:

him from, like, 15 years ago when he's a kid? No. No. He's at some, like, crazy math contest. It looks like Jeopardy, but it's, like, some it's one of those, like, where I grew up is a very normal, just random 13 year old math prodigy goes to some, like, national contest, whatever.

Dax:

And he's, like, just rapid fire answering questions. Like, it's it's so crazy to see. Yeah. Did he

Adam:

have that look on his face? That just grim?

Dax:

Sort of.

Adam:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He looks so happy.

Dax:

They were like, look how crack this team is. And then it's a picture of

Adam:

Yeah. I've heard I've heard that the team is nuts, in terms of the accolades and the whatever. I don't know what to to really glean from the demo. I've seen some people, who've played with it, you know, write their stuff on Twitter threads, kind of like live streaming their thoughts as they play with it, it supposedly takes a long time to actually do stuff, which seems way more realistic to me.

Dax:

Mhmm.

Adam:

That, like, that's how yeah. Developers take a long time. Have you ever worked with a developer? Like, so that that's interesting. It seems realistic in that sense.

Adam:

It's got the browser. It's got it's opening up its own terminal prompts and doing stuff. I don't know. It's I wish I I I just wish it was a thing we could all sign up for and play with, because to me, nothing's real until, like, if I have to book a demo, it's just it feels very, like, what what is this thing? Yeah.

Adam:

So once I can actually play with it, I'll probably have more informed thoughts. I do wonder, like, the current generation of LLMs. I don't know. How far can it get? Like, is it really making a huge dent?

Adam:

But, yeah, I feel like if they have the orchestration stuff kinda worked out, then that next generation, you know, the one we keep hearing about with, like, OpenAI, the big super secret, whatever GPD 5 will be, then I I imagine we're off to the races, and it's gonna be super helpful.

Dax:

So the word you said there, orchestration is key. So this was primarily a demo showing, like, novel composition, novel orchestration of an LLM. It's not really a breakthrough in the LLM's innate ability.

Adam:

Right.

Dax:

But it goes to show that we're really far from even if you just take the current LMS, we're really far from the ceiling of what they can do. Because really what this demo really is there's just a bunch of prompt glue and, like, giving it access to the right tools and, like, giving it a workflow. It's not really, like, progress and, like, the LMs actual capability, but it's demonstrating something that's meaningfully better than what we've seen so far. Yeah. So I really believe that we're, like, not anywhere close to the ceiling even if the LMs don't get that much better.

Dax:

I also know that, like, this that demo is like nowhere near good enough. I think there is one like kind of sobering thing, which is we've all had the ability to hire very cheap labor somewhere in the world through platforms like Upwork. We hardly reach for that. Some people do, but we hardly reach for it. So That's a good point.

Adam:

This might end up being one

Dax:

of those things where we're all kind of asking for it, but when it's actually there, like, are we actually gonna reach for it? Because the reason we don't reach for it is, like, you still have to explain what you wanna do and you still wanna you still have to check the work and it's a lot of times that has to cross the threshold of, like, is it worth all of that versus just, like, doing it myself? The reality is you'll land somewhere in between, but

Adam:

We we like programming, so it's it is easy to just be like, I could just do the work in the time. I could write a good issue or whatever. Like, I could just do it. There there is that friction for sure.

Dax:

Another interesting angle, especially for open source like like SSD where people open up valid issues all the time that we just don't want to prioritize and they might also not have the ability to exactly fix it. But if they're willing to like really describe the problem, we would probably accept the PR generated by AI for it. We would accept the PR from them if they don't want to do it then. So I see like in the more near term, like, are there things that you would do that is lower priority? Like, yeah, I can see you experimenting, rotating this in there.

Dax:

Mhmm. But, yeah, I don't I

Adam:

I actually don't I think the demo

Dax:

I know people are saying it's not cherry picked and I saw some of the threads being like, oh, it worked, but I'm there's still this gap of the demo to me actually using it. I'm very motivated to use some of this. I'm not afraid of it. I wanna use it. I have all this work I wanna get rid of, but that gap still isn't bridged for me.

Dax:

The only people that have bridged it is Copilot. Copilot is the only tool that's actually made it into my workflow. Plus, like, me, like, you know, using Trygbt.

Adam:

But, yeah, when you say yeah. When you say Copilot, I sometimes hear people talk about Copilot, and that makes me think, that I don't know about all the products they avail that are available. You just use the Copilot that just, like, suggests the next code you get. Right? Right?

Dax:

Okay. So people that use Versus code have, like, a much more rich version of Copilot that does a lot of things.

Adam:

Okay.

Dax:

But I use something called GP Vim or something. It's it's a it's a plugin for Neovim that just gives me again, this is going back to this composite composition orchestration problem. The workflow of me using chat gpt while programming sucks because you're like in your editor and you have to, like, kick out to this other thing and that friction makes it so you use it, let's say, 3 times less. This plugin just lets me use select mode in Vim. So I'll, like, select a bunch of lines and I'll be, like I'll, like, start writing half of what I wanna do.

Dax:

I'll select the lines I wrote and there's a command called, like, gp append and I I trigger that command and it just finishes. It like basically sends the context to chat gpt

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

And then like immediately inserts it in my editor. I can select things and tell it to rewrite it in a certain way. It, like, makes it a lot more fluid for me to use LMs in my editor.

Adam:

But you also use Copilot just from Just just

Dax:

just for the auto complete. I mean, again, because I'm in Neo VIM. But the people in Versus Code have, like, a lot of more advanced features.

Adam:

Okay. Yeah. That's what I'm sensing then. And wasn't something renamed to Copilot or something? Like, did they rename GitHub to Copilot or something?

Adam:

What it there was something that was like, oh, now it's

Dax:

just Yes.

Adam:

Copilot. And that's where, the word Copilot has become so overloaded that I don't know if I still use Copilot. There's

Dax:

other companies that like, I think people call this category of product Copilots.

Adam:

Oh, jeez.

Dax:

And that's also very confusing. And there's there's a few editors. There's a cursor AI, which is like a fork of Versus Code that, like, just really pushes the AI features really far. Yeah. So, I mean, again, all these companies are doing is they're just kind of figuring out last mile UX, and I think there's just so much still to be done there.

Dax:

We had this GP Vim thing. I definitely recommend I'm gonna

Adam:

look at that. Yeah.

Dax:

Like, I use it so much. Like, Ion, the go all the go stuff we wrote.

Adam:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Dax:

When I started that, I was like, I'm gonna try to, like, use AI as much as possible, and I installed that plug in. And a lot of it, it just wrote. Like, sometimes I know exactly what I wanna do. I just don't feel like typing it in.

Adam:

Yeah. And then,

Dax:

it just does it.

Adam:

I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, the back and forth to a browser. The fact that I do it at all means that it's pretty useful.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. But it it is painful. Yeah. All the orchestration stuff, you know that, like, over the next year, that's just gonna get better and better. It does suck kinda sometimes feeling like when you're in Neo VIM that you're kinda gonna be the last to get stuff.

Adam:

Forever. We might

Dax:

like, it might really get to a point where the features are so good that we start to not use. We started we, like, go back to Versus Code, which I know.

Adam:

But, Dax, we stream on Twitch, and we do things in the public. We can't not use Neovim. I love Neovim.

Dax:

Yeah. But here's at the end of the day, why do I use Neovim? It's because it saps less of my energy to to work. Like, it the the keyboard shortcuts.

Adam:

Okay. If I'm being honest, it does not. I it saps more of energy, not because it's nothing to do with Neovim. It's everything to do with my ability to stay on top of things. And I will say the Astro LSP Oh, the Astro LSP.

Adam:

And inside of Neovim, it's pain. I have to restart Neovim, like, restart Neovim, not restart the language server. I have to restart Neovim, like, a few times a day because it gets to a state where just nothing works. I can't go to definitions. I can't do anything.

Adam:

I don't know what's going on if the memory leak. I don't know.

Dax:

Yeah. But there's

Adam:

a lot of pain I've been feeling, and I've thought about, like, should I just go back to Versus Code? Am I just messing around here? Like, I could enable Vim bindings and just, like, go back to life on the main highway.

Dax:

Well, if I was using Astro, I think I would consider also. Because I think I literally switch off of Astro at some for something because,

Adam:

they

Dax:

just I just couldn't get situations. Good in the of them. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Every time I update the Astro LSP, I'm like, maybe it'll be good now. But it still isn't. Still hasn't. I know.

Adam:

And I don't blame the Astro team. I feel like there's, like, 5 of us using nail polish.

Dax:

I blame the Astro team. Here's why I blame the Astro team. If you're listening, Astro team Yeah. I don't think the file format was worth it.

Adam:

You've said this from the beginning.

Dax:

And Yeah. I think it's made worth it to some people, but I can see how just doing a lot of that in a normal TS file would be completely fine for me, and I don't have this other layer of tooling that

Adam:

has to be So so you would have suggested, like, JSX instead of trying to be more HTML. Like, I think it was a marketing thing. I think they just wanted to be like, look how close to HTML it is. It would be HTML if not for But

Dax:

in practice, it's so close to JSX. And

Adam:

It is so close to with that since they tried to model it off of. Right? Like, they tried to make Yeah.

Dax:

There's so few things that are different.

Adam:

Like, they made they want to feel familiar if you're used to JSX, which everyone is. But then it's this weird, like, I don't know how much they're getting in terms of positive press because it's almost HTML, because the file would be an HTML file if it didn't have these senses at the top. And if you just rename the extension to dot HTML, like but it wouldn't be because of all the JSX stuff, like all the templating stuff. So I it feels like this weird in between where they don't get any benefits, and there's a lot of downsides.

Dax:

Yeah. And to underscore that, I didn't know it wasn't JSX for a very long time.

Adam:

Oh, really?

Dax:

I thought it just was JSX.

Adam:

And Well, if you work at it a lot

Dax:

literally pointed that out to me, and I was like, oh.

Adam:

Yeah. The the class name is the biggest tell

Dax:

for me. Like JSX thing. That's a React flavor of JSX thing.

Adam:

Oh, JSX can have class equals stuff?

Dax:

Because because Solid, Solid has class equals. Really? Yeah. So I don't even know what JSX is anymore.

Adam:

I don't even know. Actually not JSX? JSX? Like No. Isn't it?

Adam:

I

Dax:

don't I don't really

Adam:

get it. I have no idea.

Dax:

But, anyway, point being is, I totally get why they went with that, especially their market, you know, like the WordPress market, the bigger vision.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

I get it, but I wish they had a mode for just using normal TS files, and it kinda simplifies the whole tool chain.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Because I start to think, like, is my Neo Vim config just way out of date, and I need to go through and and cut down the weeds and clean it up? And then I switch over to a TS file because I have lots of TS files in my astro project, and everything works. I'm like, oh, yeah.

Adam:

This is what a language server is supposed to do for me.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. But going back to the broader point, like, everyone's like, the stoop the the point that I hate that everyone always tries to make, they think it's so smart. You only spend 10% of your time typing. Like, why do you care about using Neo then?

Dax:

Like, isn't programming thinking? It's not typing. Everyone has that dumbass word.

Adam:

Does say that. Yeah.

Dax:

But it's about what feels like painful labor. Typing out your thoughts is not enjoyable. It's, like, annoying. Yeah. So at the end of the day, if you have to work for 8 hours, you're gonna feel less tired if the most annoying part of your day is a little bit easier.

Dax:

And that's why I use Neovin because Yep. After years of using it, it's so much more pleasant to express what I'm trying to do, and I will always use it for that reason. But with all this AI stuff, it attacks that same thing. Right? Like, if all these AI integrations and Versus code make it so good for me to express what I wanna do, it might, you know, display Just feels.

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly. So I can see myself going You're

Adam:

not biased. You'll you'll go with whatever is the least pain.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

I hear you. Yeah. I I know I can edit files faster now, but a lot of that's just Vim motions. But I am so used to Neovim at this point and the way I have it configured that going back to Versus Code would be its own friction. Yeah.

Adam:

I don't know. I speaking of dumb points, I feel like you're ready to change topics. Is that okay?

Dax:

No. Go ahead.

Adam:

That we changed it. Yeah. I'm never gonna ask permission again. I'm just gonna do it. I think I think I've said that before.

Adam:

The did you know there are people who don't think, capitalism is best? Did you know that?

Dax:

Well, it's so funny because you, this is like a recent discovery for you. But to me, it's been, like, the bane of everything for, like, years years years. And especially, like, living in New York, it's such a such a thing that's in the air. Yeah. It's it's very trendy to blame every single thing on this vague capitalism concept.

Adam:

Yeah. I I guess I don't even wanna spend much time on this because it'll just make me mad. I don't think about capitalism ever. I don't it's not a thing I think about. I'm not a capitalism worshipper, as I've been called in the last few days.

Dax:

Oh, yeah.

Adam:

Of course. Apparently, if you tweet anything about startups or about whatever, the the layoffs, then you're just a capitalist. And, yeah, I guess I am. I I mean, I live in America, and this is what I've only ever known. That's it.

Adam:

That's all I have to say. The fact that there are people here in America that are like, you capitalist worshipers, like, what are you what what what are you? What what do you wanna do with your life? Like, what Yeah.

Dax:

With with your fancy ass tech job. It's funny because it this is such a common thing in New York. I'll tell you some, like, specific stories. In New York, you'll often and this is probably not the case. Any market signs have changed, but there was a period where people would very proudly as soon as you meet them, they'd be like, oh, I'm actually a socialist or I'm actually a communist.

Dax:

Oh, okay. What do you do? I'm a product manager at Facebook. Like, you're making probably 300 k to do a nothing job, and you're gonna tell me you're a socialist or you're a communist. And here's the second one.

Dax:

So we, Liz had a roommate and, like, in her friend circle, there was this guy, and he was, like, head of the communist party in, in New York. So something great something weird like that. Okay? He lived in a $2,000,000 beautiful brownstone that faces the park in Park Slope. It's, like, one of the most coveted like, extremely coveted place to live.

Dax:

Like, Liz would, like, die to, like, live there. It was fantastic. His parents paid for it, and his partner is like a dancer. And this thing this thing that people don't realize is, like, no gov no socialist communist government is making up, oh, yeah. We need, like, 1% of our population to be dancers.

Dax:

Like, that's never something that they come up with. That only exists in these capitalist, you know, systems because that can produce the resources for people, like, choose their own life and, like, meet demand on, like, these granular ways. But, yeah, like, head of the communist party, you know, Manchin paid by his parents, you know, not really working, like, like, a labor job. Yeah. Extremely common.

Dax:

And the other thing that's a little frustrating for us is, especially for Liz, these people love to use Cuba as an example. They're like, oh, but in Cuba, like, the, you know, the health care is paid for by the government or, like, oh, in Cuba, like, you know, x y z things. It's so offensively ignorant because, yeah, health care is paid for by the government. Just like everything's paid for by the government. Liz's family members, when they have family in Cuba that are sick, they need treatment.

Dax:

You know what they have to do? In America, they have to go buy medical supplies, travel with, like, literally gauze, like, scalpels, all this stuff, travel with it to Cuba so that the doctors there can do the operation because they don't have Yeah. That stuff there. Like, it is a tough, tough life to live there. It's extremely difficult, and people kind of, like, flippantly are like, oh, you know, these other countries they have x y z thing.

Dax:

You just don't know. Like, especially if you're in America, like, you really don't know how good it is. There's so many problems here. I think the biggest problems in America are actually that capitalism isn't appropriately applied. I think, we let companies get too big.

Dax:

We let companies we kinda, like, kill competition in a lot of ways, and capitalism requires, like, aggressive competition. People just, like, blame everything on it. They're, like, everything is because of capitalism and, like, I don't know. I it's it's very it's very ignorant to me.

Adam:

Yeah. I I don't claim to know anything about anything. I mean, especially this. But I live in the context I live in. I live here in America, and, like, I I'm not gonna try to imagine a world where it wasn't a capitalist economy, and I just it just rubs me really weird when people start coming at me because I'm a capitalist worshipper.

Adam:

Like, I don't

Dax:

I know. It's just like a random thing they throw out. It's supposed to be an insult because they just it's, like, insinuated that capitalism is bad for some reason. Yeah. Because they're responsible for everything that's bad.

Adam:

And then if you respond, they hit you with this meme. I don't know if you've seen that. I'm sure you have.

Dax:

The, oh, we should improve society. That that stupid thing.

Adam:

Yeah. Because that's what you were yeah. That's exactly what you were saying. Maybe we could

Dax:

it is weird. I feel like people don't appreciate what they have or understand where where it comes from. And at the end of the day, I'm just like, just check the scoreboard. Like, that's what it comes down to. America is still doing pretty

Adam:

great. Yeah.

Dax:

Like, we have the rest of the world, like, significantly better. It really feels like the rest of the world builds on top of innovation that happens here. That's not an accident, that's not something that happens randomly. It takes so many little things for that to to be the case. So Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. It's it's weird. But it it is it is trendy. It is like a trendy thing.

Adam:

Yeah. It's really annoying. Maybe if you're in that trend, maybe consider your life choices. Try a different trend. Try something else, like, I don't know, anti caffeine or something.

Adam:

There's lots of trends. Lots of trends you could hop on, you know? Veganism, it's big these days.

Dax:

Well, that here's the thing. That's where you can mess with people. If someone's like, you're a capitalist, whatever, you can be like, actually, I'm vegan. And I guarantee they have no, like, mental model for dealing with that. They, like, probably are just like, like, what do I say?

Dax:

Like, I guarantee they'd be really confused.

Adam:

Because they have, like, black and white. Things that would contradict whatever view they have of me. It's like there is no box you can put

Dax:

replied to you being like, oh, like, you grew up with rich parents or whatever.

Adam:

Right. Yeah. Like, that was a big assumption to make. I don't know what I said.

Dax:

You you, like, shared any you shared your trajectory. You acknowledge like maybe it was slightly easier for you than it maybe is for other people. And they were like, well, obviously it's because you had rich parents. Like, it's just like it's just so sad. Like, when you whenever you see anyone succeeding, is your reaction to be like, there's no way they could have done that without some, like, cheating, you know?

Dax:

That's, like, there's some people that see the world that way.

Adam:

A lot of bitterness online. I I don't know if online is the like, if we're if it's shaping us to be this way. Like, we're seeing so many people in a different context than ours that it creates this bitterness. But I do see it a lot in replies these days, and I don't like it. For them, like, for people who see that and this sounds so, like, I'm on my pedestal, high horse here, like, oh, you poor peasants.

Adam:

Why must you be so bitter? But, like, just for for people to feel that way, like, to see any situation that's different than theirs and be, like, well, I would have been that way if only, like, whatever. That's

Dax:

just not a

Adam:

good way to live. Like

Dax:

Again, going back to this idea that we're almost so used to this stuff that when you think back like, step back and think, like, do I know anyone that would behave like that? It's like, of course not. Like, I don't know anyone that would behave that way. Did you see that thing with Prime where that guy was like, reporting to Prime being like, oh, you're some guy that did meth and now acts like a clown. You know?

Dax:

Just like Yeah. Because obviously any obviously, any person is gonna realize that that's only gonna make people, like, come to his defense. Obviously, it's a very sympathetic situation. It's a very admirable situation. It's something that people look at in a positive way.

Dax:

So, 1, like, not recognizing that. And then, 2, just saying, like, just like the most, like, mean thing. Like, who do you know in real life that would actually do that? Yeah. Like, it's such a weird behavior.

Adam:

That's definitely a thing. Right? That, like, online communities, like, we're so much more rude and and just the way we act versus in person, like, people wouldn't be the way they are on Reddit, you know.

Dax:

Well, I think this person might be because it's so, like, it's so detethered from anything normal that I'm like, are we just connecting with

Adam:

some Is it that we're just discovering so many more people, but so many more types

Dax:

of What is this person like in real life? Like, I can't help but imagine, like, are they just normal and they have just, like, this weird thing that they exert online? Yeah. Or are they, like, weird in real life too? It's it's really odd.

Adam:

I feel like I need to say because I I feel like I've been picking on lots of different things in this episode. I've probably done all these things too. Like, I've probably said things on Twitter I regret where I was like a jerk. And if I go back through my replies, I could probably dig up stuff that, like, I've contradicted. So, like, I don't know.

Adam:

Life is hard, and I I'm not trying to pick on people. It's just like I I I still have this thesis that we're all just too online, that there's just too much online interaction versus real world react interaction. Like, the the ratio is so out of whack.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. Do you do

Adam:

you agree with that? Maybe you don't. Maybe you think this is fine. I I I love it for friendships. Like, I feel like we can be friends.

Adam:

It's like I'm gonna have friends that I have so much more in common with than I ever could in person, the people around me. Like, I just can't meet people that have so many specific interests. So the the online nature of, like, socialization, I love that, but I do worry about our brains.

Dax:

Yeah. To me, I kinda perceive it more like almost like a natural phenomena. Like, if I don't know. Like, a volcano goes off and, like, life like, it's, like, cloudy or whatever for, like, 3 years or, like, 40 years, whatever it is. You could be, like, one perspective is, oh, like, you know, we shouldn't live like this.

Dax:

But, like, you would never say that because it's, like, a natural phenomenon. It just, like, is reality.

Adam:

Change it. Yeah. This is

Dax:

just the world now.

Adam:

That's a good point. Yeah.

Dax:

But so for me, it's more like, this is just the world now. This is what it is, and this is what the new normal is. I think, Yeah. This book have you seen the movie, I am Legend? Yeah.

Dax:

So the book version of it so the the rough premise for people that haven't seen it is, there's a cure for cancer or something. It ends up turning people into these, like in the book, it's, like, not exactly zombies. They're, like, almost like vampires. Whatever. It makes everyone these, like, monsters.

Dax:

And there's a few people that are immune, and the main character is immune. And he's, like, working so hard to, like, cure the world because he,

Adam:

like, you

Dax:

know, he has the ability to, like, research his stuff. And he does discover a cure, but at the end, he destroys a cure and kills himself because he realizes that

Adam:

spoilers. Sorry.

Dax:

From his point of view, he was, yeah, he was curing the world of being monsters. But then from the world's point of view, they're all normal, and he's just some of this he's like this crazy monster to them going and trying to change them. Yeah. So he kinda, like, accepted that the world has shifted, and he is the one that is no longer has a place in it.

Adam:

I've seen that movie, and I don't remember any of that. That's so funny. No.

Dax:

The movie the movie wasn't like that. The and the movie was because, like, here's a cure. I'm gonna sacrifice myself and kill all these dumb zombies.

Adam:

Oh, you're oh, you're saying the book. You the you're describing the book.

Dax:

The book. Yeah. The book has a different ending.

Adam:

Oh, a different ending? How can you do that in a movie adaptation?

Dax:

Well, the movie has, like, a Hollywood

Adam:

ending. Face of the author.

Dax:

I think there was an arrow in movies where it was like, you would just need a straightforward plot. And I think at some point, people got bored of them. So now we have, like, crazier plots that maybe are, like, leave you not entirely satisfied at the end, but, like, on purpose and it's, like, intellectual and whatever.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

But when that movie came out, no. Straightforward. Zombie movie, guy alone in New York. He's gonna save the world, and he's gonna sacrifice himself doing it.

Adam:

It was kind of like that. The yeah.

Dax:

But the the book had this deeper point of as impossible as it seems yeah. Like, that is now the new normal. And that's kinda how I feel about this stuff.

Adam:

That's how I need I need this yeah. I think you shifted my perspective. I need that shift because it is just reality. It's like, what does complaining about this amount of time we're spending online do nothing.

Dax:

This is the way people talk to each other now.

Adam:

This is

Dax:

just the way yeah.

Adam:

And there's a lot I love about it. Like, it's it's changed my life for the better in so many, so many ways. And it's still not impossible to, like, get that offline time and to do the things that you wanna do in the real world. It's just, it's like you said, it's the most interesting thing you have is your phone. So Oh, yeah.

Dax:

That's what Nikita Bier said. It's like

Adam:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. This other this reminds me of

Adam:

the other thing I've been thinking about. I've been afraid

Dax:

of the right way to articulate it, but with all this AI stuff coming out, like, we're all imagining what the future will be like. And I think we have this weird bias where all the technology seems so great and amazing, and we imagine, like, a very neat future as a result. We're, like, oh, like, you know, all these things will be, like, straightforward and and clean and neat. But if you ask most people, do you think the past was neater or do you think now is neater? The past seems, like, simpler and more straightforward, and now just seems more chaotic.

Dax:

So with Imagination's AI stuff, it actually might just be even, like, more chaotic in the future. We think, like, oh, like, yeah, software is gonna be easier to produce, and it's gonna be, like, like, more correct than, like, you know, all this stuff we can do all that stuff, but the reality is a 1000 times more software is gonna get produced very quickly because the cost of producing is gonna go down.

Adam:

That might

Dax:

end up in, like, a way messier thing that requires, like, way more human effort to stay on top of, you know? So, yeah, I think there's it's interesting. So we think the future is gonna be more straightforward, but I don't think it ever is. I think it's just,

Adam:

like, more and more crazier. Yeah. It's, it kinda takes us back to the we didn't really talk much about the reaction to Devon.

Dax:

Right.

Adam:

There's definitely, like, the 2 camps that are forming. And then there's always the people in the middle that are just kinda like, I'm gonna be very reasonable and measured on Twitter, and look at me. But the people on the extremes are like, you're all idiots. Of course, this is taking all our jobs. Like, here it comes.

Adam:

Told you. And then there's the other side that's, like, not impressed. Like, this is just gonna create more junk code that we're all gonna have to maintain. So where do you, yeah, where do you land on that spectrum?

Dax:

I have no idea. I it's I don't think I've Oh, you're

Adam:

in the middle.

Dax:

I just don't know. It's it's very unclear. Do you think

Adam:

A little tiny tea cup drinking and looking down on us all, like

Dax:

I don't imagine. I guess sort of. Because when I imagine these people, anyone's unimpressed by LMs. They're like, I canceled my chat GPT subscription. It wasn't useful.

Dax:

Like, you're I I'm a 100% certain you're motivated by not wanting to believe it's useful because it's so obviously useful. Like

Adam:

I don't get that take.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's no way. Like, you you just don't want this to be

Adam:

I'm trying to make this thing help me. It's just every time I remember, oh, I can just I can ask Chad JBT. I end up with good outcomes.

Dax:

Yeah. Delivered. And I

Adam:

feel like if you're not yeah. If you're not seeing that, then I'm not sure what you're missing.

Dax:

Yeah. And to me, it's it's so it's such a gap from my experience. It can only be explained by psychology to me. Like, I feel like you don't want this to be useful.

Adam:

Yeah. Like, you don't want it to be.

Dax:

Then the people that are really confident saying, like, oh, it's just gonna be, like, it's gonna create even more developers. It's gonna be, like, 10 times as many. I totally get their point and I like to see it. I think in the short term, assuming there's like no hard take off with like true artificial intelligence, it's actually a very simple formula. There's all this code that needs to be written today.

Dax:

It's not being written because you can't connect the labor to the person that needs it, and there's always gonna be a problem. And it becomes 10 times cheaper, maybe a 1000 times cheaper. All that stuff is gonna get written. You're gonna have, like, a 1000 x amount of software, like, very quickly because it's even cheaper to produce. I can see how the end result of that is not anything good.

Dax:

Yeah. Most of the software in today is bad. A lot of the software today I don't know have we talked this customer service thing I always talk about?

Adam:

I don't remember.

Dax:

I think we maybe have.

Adam:

Say more.

Dax:

But, like, so much is automatable now, theoretically. Yeah. You wanna go book a hotel. You wanna go book appointment for a haircut, but the actual automation that was put in place there sucks. It's, like, not good, but it allowed companies to get rid of the human stuff.

Dax:

So now we're in this crappy middle ground where, like, you have to use these crappy automated systems when you would just probably rather just talk to someone and explain them what you want, but, like, that person's not there anymore. So that's kinda how I feel, like, if we let more software reproduce, like, I don't necessarily think it's gonna be, like, good software. I think it's just kinda creates more of a mess and helps stuff a little bit. I can see how that's the case and I get where people are coming from. This is going to require, like, a new set of work for people to manage and improve and stuff.

Dax:

But I'm also not sure about that either because I do believe that there's a chance of like, you know, something that is genuinely better than how humans produce products and stuff. So, yeah, I I just don't know. It's very unclear to me. I'm confused how anyone can be very certain.

Adam:

I'm very selfish. I don't view things from, like, a broader perspective. I just have viewed this whole situation from my perspective. And it's like, I have very, like, specific desires that I'm probably just, like, wish casting this into. Is that a word?

Adam:

Like, I just want it to be a certain thing. And any little signal is like, I think it's coming. Yeah. This thing I need, like, I would I would love to have because I don't hire like, I haven't historically hired people that are very cheap labor. I don't like managing people.

Adam:

And I do think I could really enjoy having these types of things to manage versus human beings. So I want that, and I think I just, like, I see any progress and I get excited, like, maybe that future exists. But I don't think about it from a broader, like, industry perspective, what it's gonna mean for the landscape.

Dax:

Like, solve solve the world's problems. Yeah.

Adam:

Put your own mask on in the airplane scenario. Yeah.

Dax:

So I think, yeah, to me, that's what keeping me grounded. I'm just trying to figure out how to improve my own stuff. And through that process, I might get some insight on how this might be generally true

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Across a lot of people. That's why with all this stuff coming out, I'm, like, go I'm, like, bringing it back to, okay, I see dev in. Am I, like, gonna go use it tomorrow? Probably not. So that's, like, not it.

Dax:

Yeah. Like, I'm not dropping everything till I go find a way to go use it. Right? Yep. So, like, you'll get once something meets that threshold, it'll be

Adam:

I think it'll be very obvious when you think about it that way. What else is going on? Twitter Twitter Twitter. Why is Twitter the best developer community? Get out of here, Redditors.

Dax:

Is that true?

Adam:

Hacker news is Objectively. Yeah. Yeah. Fact.

Dax:

Well, you see what I posted about the hacker news thing with PlanetScale?

Adam:

No. Wait. What? PlanetScale Hacker News?

Dax:

The hacker news thread on PlanetScale stuff was, like, so reasonable. Like, everyone had a reasonable response for the most part.

Adam:

Yeah. And, like, the

Dax:

worst stuff I saw was Twitter. Yeah.

Adam:

All over the place. Yeah. You know, I only learned who Shoe Nice was in the last

Dax:

Me too.

Adam:

I don't know who

Dax:

that was either till

Adam:

that thread. And now, I'm following Kevin. It's just his face everywhere.

Dax:

Are you following

Adam:

him? No. Oh, wait. Maybe. Oh, I am.

Adam:

Yep. Turns out. Yeah. I I feel like I missed the whole era of YouTube. Like, I only got into YouTube, and I'm not even really into it now.

Adam:

But Yeah. I feel like I missed all this stuff.

Dax:

I think I vaguely kinda remember that. The, the other thing so I talk about how LMs are underused. I also think that, that sort of cameo. Do you know what that is?

Adam:

Oh, that is so underused. Yeah. I had the exact same thought Yeah. When this Shunai stuff happened. Like, oh, we should totally be memeing each other with, like, celebrities' gamut.

Dax:

That expensive.

Adam:

It's really that expensive.

Dax:

Yeah. Just getting I feel like there's so many opportunities for pranks.

Adam:

I had the exact same thought. I'm totally gonna do it. Yeah. I I I did. I I'm gonna have to open a tab and leave it open so I don't forget my cameo.

Adam:

This would just be a whole nother layer to our shitposting each other. Exactly. Messing with each other.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, maybe I should start making my points through celebrities' voices.

Adam:

There you go. Exactly.

Dax:

Yeah. What a brilliant what a brilliant, concept.

Adam:

Business? Startup?

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly.

Adam:

So smart. Okay. This one's odd. I just, I pulled up Cameo. And one of today's top ten is the viral Oompa Loompa.

Adam:

Did you see this? The lady at, like, the chemistry set. That was so. You can you can buy for $20, you can get an a cameo from her. That's true.

Adam:

A 4.98 rating. Like, who is this person? How did they contact her?

Dax:

Well, what would the best part is you also get professional impersonators. So, like Oh,

Adam:

is that what it is?

Dax:

Well, no. Well, you can also get

Adam:

you know?

Dax:

Like, obviously, you can't get, like, Brad Pitt to, like, do a cameo because it's not worth it for him.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. But there are people who have

Dax:

impersonators that are very, very, very good that you

Adam:

can Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Dax:

But it's with AI now. Like, it's kind of maybe Cameo doesn't even need to exist anymore.

Adam:

Oh, yeah. That's another thing I'm surprised we don't see more of is more fake, like, video people talking that they didn't really do. Like, that's they didn't really say. You know what I mean? Like, I'm surprised there's not more deep fake, like, stuff happening on Twitter.

Adam:

Yeah. Jokes or maliciously or whatever. Like, it's like that tech is so good now, isn't it? And, like, you never see,

Dax:

That's true.

Adam:

I don't know.

Dax:

Maybe it's still, like, it hasn't crossed the threshold of, like, you can do it on a whim, which it maybe is what

Adam:

Yeah. Maybe. Man, so many people, like, $20,000 to get Kenny G to do a cameo. Like, no, thanks. Who's who's doing that?

Dax:

To be honest, I feel like maybe Cameo fell off a little bit. Because I'm looking at their list of people, and I'm like, these are, like, not, like, nowhere close to

Adam:

anyone that I want doing anything. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think we just said there should be a lot more of this, but now I can't think of a single example of, like, a person that I think would be funny to have post something. Oh my

Dax:

god. I see the Oompa Loompa.

Adam:

How wild is that? Like, how'd they find that person? There's there's

Dax:

2 of them. 1 is like an one is like a fake version.

Adam:

Oh, really? It is a fake? It's not the person from the picture?

Dax:

Oh, I guess, maybe there's more than one. There's more than one Oompa Loompa

Adam:

at the event, which I guess makes sense. Okay. There's Cameo Kids, and this looks like fun to have, like, Elmo say something trolley about RSCs. That would be fun. Oh, that's fun.

Adam:

That's good. Cookie monster.

Dax:

Yeah. You gotta get someone something really innocent, like, just talking like a load of shit.

Adam:

Yeah. I wonder if you can. Well, maybe not cursing, but, like, you could get them to say funny things in our context that wouldn't be offensive. Exactly.

Dax:

Was it was it Flip that did

Adam:

the shoe nice thing originally? Yeah. I don't know. I think I wanna say Flip.

Dax:

It was brilliant.

Adam:

That was it was good.

Dax:

Well, first, I thought it was real. Initially, I was like, has this guy been watching, like, tech Twitter and has all these, like, funny things to say about it? And then I went halfway through all the, oh, it was a cameo.

Adam:

Cameo. Got it. It's so funny we have the same thought. There's not near enough cameo happening in life.

Dax:

Maybe I'll go on here.

Adam:

Oh, there you go. Can I yeah? Some of these are, like, $20. Can I pay $20 to have Dax say something? Yeah.

Adam:

I'll just have you say something you would have said anyway. Mhmm.

Dax:

I gotta find someone here that looks like me, and then I can have them read all my thoughts.

Adam:

Yeah. There you go. Just like uncanny valley, Dax. It's like, wait, is that Dax?

Dax:

Yeah. I gotta get, Oscar Isaac from Ex Machina. Have you seen that movie?

Adam:

No. I haven't seen movies. Oh, yeah. I need you to tell me what movie I'm not so I watched Dunkirk.

Dax:

K.

Adam:

What's my next movie?

Dax:

Have you seen well, have you, like, gone to the Oscar winners for this year?

Adam:

No. Who are they?

Dax:

Well, Oppenheimer just crushed it. Oppenheimer, like, did so well, and I was so happy

Adam:

for that. Seen Oppenheimer. And I I loved Oppenheimer. Yeah.

Dax:

So that Just short Oscars. Do you know those were Christopher Nolan's first Oscars? He finally won 2 Really? Best picture, best director.

Adam:

When were the Oscars? This happened already?

Dax:

Sunday. I

Adam:

used to be plugged into the world. What what happened? I don't consume anything, apparently, where I would know these things.

Dax:

The Oscars are super boring, so you definitely shouldn't watch them. But But

Adam:

I mean, like, here, like, oh, these things won the Oscars. I I didn't hear anything.

Dax:

I do feel like a lot of this traditional media stuff is like kinda on a downtrend in terms of like people carrying. I think this stuff just doesn't show up as much.

Adam:

Interesting. So that was the 96 Oscars. I'm trying to see the winners because that see, I generally, I think I like critically acclaimed movies. My wife thinks it's a signal that she won't like the movie if it did well in the awards. She's more into not good movies, I guess.

Dax:

So, the other one that was nominated was Martin Scorsese. He's, Killers of the of the Flower Moon.

Adam:

Killers of the Flower moon. I think I've heard of that.

Dax:

Wait. You've never seen Wolf of Wall Street. Go watch Wolf of Wall Street.

Adam:

Wolf of Wall Street. Okay. That's old, though, isn't it? That's not like

Dax:

a good old but I mean, okay. It's

Adam:

It It didn't win an Oscar this year. Right?

Dax:

You're not gonna watch it.

Adam:

I think this is an old movie. Oh, okay.

Dax:

You're gonna watch it and think this is a hilarious movie.

Adam:

Yeah. I'm I'm super ageist about movies. Like, if it looks like it was made and

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't like stuff.

Adam:

But it's not that old.

Dax:

No. It doesn't feel like an old movie at all.

Adam:

So Cillian Murphy won won, best actor, for Oppenheimer?

Dax:

Yeah. He was so good.

Adam:

That was so good. It was good.

Dax:

Yeah. Big fan.

Adam:

Okay. So I'm watching, what did what did you say? I already forgot the name of it. Wolf of Wall Street. And what's my next movie after that?

Dax:

I really just take it one at

Adam:

a time.

Dax:

Directors and, like, just watching, like, their top three movies. That usually works out well. Like, so it's Stephen Sjoberg.

Adam:

That's the last character I can remember.

Dax:

Like, the original director that people may have, Steven Spielberg.

Adam:

That's I've been a little unplugged. Yeah. Get you said Nolan. So Oppenheimer was known.

Dax:

Like you watched a bunch of Nolan movies already.

Adam:

Yeah. I think I have. I I mean, like, I love Inception. That was a Nolan movie. Right?

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

Dunkirk was, you know, it was it was a movie. And Oppenheimer is his latest. So is there any other missing big Nolan movie I haven't watched? I mean,

Dax:

Interstellar, which I think you've seen.

Adam:

I've seen Interstellar.

Dax:

Although, I'd

Adam:

like to see it in my theater, but it'd be really good.

Dax:

Yeah. So I think you've probably seen most of his best ones. Okay. Scorsese, Wolf of Wall Street, definitely one of his best movies.

Adam:

Oh, so that's Scorsese. I've heard of Scorsese.

Dax:

The Departed is also very good. Oh,

Adam:

I've seen The Departed. Yeah.

Dax:

You're getting

Adam:

back into old enough movies that I've I've, like, that one's

Dax:

a while back. Let me go forward. So his newest movie is Killers of the Flower Moon, which is, okay. So the thing with him is he's so successful now that he can make movies as long as he wants.

Adam:

Oh, it's a long movie.

Dax:

Stops him. So I will say, Kill the Flower Moon, very good, amazing acting, Leonardo DiCaprio, but was a bit long. So I don't know if you wanna do that.

Adam:

I'm I'm looking up how long when you say a bit long.

Dax:

Have you gone through it's like 3 hour 3 and a half hours or something insane?

Adam:

Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. I got 2 hours on Saturday morning. So if it doesn't fit in that

Dax:

Have you gone through, Tarantino's stuff? Like, have you seen

Adam:

He's like the Kill Bill. Yeah. Like, that's the movies he did. Is it I think, like, I've seen at least one of his movies, and I don't know if it's my style. I don't know if I enjoy the, like, over the top gore.

Adam:

Is that, like, his thing?

Dax:

I would say all of his movies have some aspect of it, but a movie like Kill Bill is, like, a very extreme version of it. So if you look at, like have you seen, I think you've seen Inglourious Basterds.

Adam:

No. Is that good? Yeah. I like Brad Pitt. I know he's in there.

Dax:

He's great. That all the

Adam:

Is Brad Pitt from Springfield? I think that's

Dax:

why I mentioned it.

Adam:

Oh, I have. I'm just such a small person. Like, I'm just in such a small world, and I just regurgitate the same, like, 5 facts about my life.

Dax:

Django and Jane is also good. Leonardo DiCaprio is really good in that. What did you say? Django Unchained? Django Unchained.

Adam:

Django Unchained? Oh, okay.

Dax:

Yeah. And Hateful 8 will

Adam:

2012.

Dax:

I think anything post 2005 or 6 will feel like a new movie to you. Like, I don't think I don't think they, like, seem old, really. Did the trailers make them look really old? Because trailers back then were just so different.

Adam:

Just different.

Dax:

Just like a guy like, in a world where, you know, the guy that narrate No matter what Yeah. Yeah. No matter how serious the movie is, it's just got this crazy guy. Oh, wait. I'm all over the place.

Dax:

Have you seen There Will Be Blood?

Adam:

No. What is it?

Dax:

You should watch that amazing movie.

Adam:

There Will Be Blood. Okay. Is that a Scorsese? Who is that?

Dax:

No. It's, Coen Brothers, I think.

Adam:

Oh, Coen book. I watched one of their movies, that won an an Academy Award. What's the name of it? The the guy with the cow prod thing?

Dax:

Oh, yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Tommy Lee Jones?

Dax:

No Country for Old Men.

Adam:

Yes. That's a Coen Brothers. Right? So, like I've watched that.

Dax:

A nice way to go is through directors or actors. So in that case, Coen Brothers also did There Will Be Blood, which I think maybe is the best acting performance I've ever seen with, Daniel Day Lewis. He's, like, the main character in it. So There Will Be Blood is about, like, this oil man, like, building his oil empire in, like, the late 1800. And it starts from him literally, like, scrounging around in the dirt looking for oil to, like, the the height of, like, success.

Dax:

And he, like, kinda goes insane, and it's a very crazy interesting also a beautiful movie. It'll look good in your theater.

Adam:

Oh, okay. But then if you go if you

Dax:

go the other direction, so you watch No Country for Old Men, the scary guy in that played by Javier Bardem.

Adam:

Yes.

Dax:

His movies are also very good. He was just in the new Dune movie.

Adam:

I wanna see the new Dune movie.

Dax:

The new Dune movie is very good, but you gotta wait

Adam:

for it to come out. Online. I can't wait for it to come out for home theaters. I'm the same way. There's, like, there's something nice about watching certain things at home.

Dax:

So and especially with your setup, it's probably better than theaters.

Adam:

Oh, yeah. I'm not going to I'm not going to a theater.

Dax:

For sure. Yeah.

Adam:

But I didn't know how to ask online, like, when will it be on the news groups? So, like, when does it release to home theaters seem like a Well, usually, they have to work.

Dax:

Release date. I mean, for movie like Dune, they might have not announced it. It's probably gonna be a while.

Adam:

I just sent you a picture of Tommy Lee Jones. How old do you think Tommy Lee Jones is? Look at that picture and tell me.

Dax:

He's been old my whole life, though.

Adam:

Yeah. But look at the picture and tell me how old you think he is from that picture.

Dax:

Crazy old.

Adam:

Let me see. Where did you send it to me? It's Discord.

Dax:

Discord. Wow. He looks like he died several years ago.

Adam:

He looks seriously, I'm sorry. I don't know if this is mean, but, like, he looks he's 77. Does he not look like he's a 104 in that picture? What in the what in the world? He's always

Dax:

had a crazy wrinkled face. Like, that's been his thing, right, forever. Yeah.

Adam:

I guess, he's always a little older.

Dax:

And I think that's one that has worked for his roles.

Adam:

I guess I haven't seen him in a movie in a long time. But, like, he does not look like he would be acting in that current state. Maybe it's a bad day. You know, I have bad days. Today's probably a bad day.

Dax:

He's, like, a really accomplished actor, but, like, when I think of him, I just think men in black. Like, it's Yeah. This is mostly how I remember him from.

Adam:

Yeah. Same. That's funny. April 16th, Dune 2, digital release.

Dax:

Dude, that's not that far. No. I know it'd be, like, 6 or 5

Adam:

months out. Be, is that around when I'll be coming to Miami? That's close.

Dax:

You don't have to watch the day it comes out. You can come out. No.

Adam:

I'm not. I'm just saying, like, that's how close it is. Like, Miami is close. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Exactly. We

Adam:

got stuff to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's for, your part of the Miami stuff to do, is everything on track?

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

Will we have certain things that we have to lift? Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna set it

Dax:

I I just sent a list yesterday.

Adam:

I saw that.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

But the timing of it, everything is still on track.

Dax:

Everything is good.

Adam:

The thing that I need to get on time, I'm gonna set a date where we have to have

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

The the Yes.

Dax:

I I think I'm

Adam:

gonna do that thing.

Dax:

I got yesterday was the blocker for your thing. So I think once we Oh, yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

Everything else.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love having a secret project that we kind of talk about because we actually need to talk about it.

Adam:

Like, nobody has, you know, we're down there. It's fun. Okay. We should probably get off here. How have we been talking forever?

Adam:

Hour and 20? You know, there's no end to these episodes. There doesn't have to be, a time limit. Like, I what's his name? Really famous podcaster, Joe Rogan.

Dax:

He does, like, 5 hour episodes.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. What's that about? Do people listen for that long? Because, like, I listen to podcasts on a walk.

Adam:

I can't walk for 5 hours.

Dax:

No. But I think what's smart about it is the people he gets on there, it's the only opportunity they have to speak for 5 hours, so they approach it totally differently. So that's why I think they, like, kinda work. If you don't watch the whole thing, the person you're hearing different stuff to them or you're hearing them talk about things in a different way because they're not, like, compress everything.

Adam:

That makes sense. Okay. So it's not that everybody that listens to Joe Rogan listens to 5 hour episodes every week. Think a lot of people do.

Dax:

They just have it on all day while they work or whatever.

Adam:

Oh, while they work. Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

Dax:

Have you seen any Guillermo del Toro movies?

Adam:

I don't know who that is. No.

Dax:

Okay. Some of this stuff it's he he he's weird, but some of this stuff is pretty good.

Adam:

Okay. Wolf of Wall Street. That's my next one. That's all I need to know.

Dax:

I can't remember 2 movies

Adam:

ahead. Oh, of course. Okay. I love Lord of the Rings. Yeah.

Adam:

I've watched all the special footage for Lord of the Rings. That's not big enough.

Dax:

Doesn't like it?

Adam:

Who? Liz?

Dax:

Liz thinks Liz. She, like, doesn't like it. She thinks it's a bad movie. And it's funny because,

Adam:

I I love this because she's so objectively wrong because return of

Dax:

the king has the record for the most number of Oscars or some something like that.

Adam:

Oh, really?

Dax:

If there was gonna be a way to objectively measure a movie, like,

Adam:

you're wrong. It's up there. Yeah. I think didn't they kind of, like, hold off knowing there was gonna be 3 movies and they kinda, like, gave all the awards they were gonna give for that for that series of movies on the last one, if I recall? Oh, really?

Adam:

It's like Oh,

Dax:

that makes sense.

Adam:

They didn't really honor the first 2 because it was like they just waited till the 3rd run, and they gave them all

Dax:

their works. Sense. Yeah.

Adam:

It was quite an undertaking. Like, if you watch any of the special footage, like, what a crazy and and really, like, that's a nice hat tip to how much of a crazy entertaining these books were. Like Mhmm. How many authors have thrown, like, their entire life's work into 1 series of books and, like, created an entire universe and all

Dax:

the backstory?

Adam:

Like, there's books that the characters in the Lord of the Rings read that he wrote. They're like it's just crazy. Like, the amount of effort that I feel like this is just not gonna happen again. Like, an author is not gonna do that. And if they do, it'll feel like I don't know.

Adam:

Maybe maybe it could be done again, but it just feels like it'd be forced.

Dax:

No. It's it's it hasn't happened in a long time. Like, Harry Potter was the closest, and that was, like

Adam:

Oh, yeah.

Dax:

Smaller. Still very good. I've watched

Adam:

all those movies too.

Dax:

Yeah. Okay. So here's another thing I will say. So I'm I'm not someone that likes old movies. I'm not like, oh, things are so better back in the day.

Dax:

Yeah. But there was this golden window where making a movie meant doing all this really hard stuff that has gone away. So Lord of the Rings, making that movie meant they were hiking to weird parts of New Zealand and still not there. And if you look at newer movies

Adam:

Building crazy cities, like, in these remote places in New York.

Dax:

Stuff just looks better. It just looks better.

Adam:

It does. Yeah.

Dax:

Comes out better. And a lot of the newer stuff, everything has, like, this weird, like, gloss over it because it's all, like, green screen CGI.

Adam:

So, like, all the Marvel movies, like, half of it's not real. Like, most of what you're seeing is just

Dax:

I'm not, like, staunch in thinking, like, you can't ever recreate that. I I believe, hypothetically, you can with the right setup. I don't think whatever they're doing now is anywhere close to that. I think it does not work.

Adam:

It's not the same in the sense that the actors imagine being on a set So hard. On a mountain in New Zealand with the wind blowing and, like, you feel like you're in this medieval time. Like, I would think the performance would be so much easier to, like, get what you're wanting to get out of the actors and just for it to feel believable when you watch the movie versus, like, you're on this stage with all these green screens, and you're just, like Yeah. Pretending. Yeah.

Dax:

Well, there's a clip of, Ian McKellen who plays Gandalf. So but when they made The Hobbit movies, there's a clip of him, like, breaking down and crying because he's literally on his in his own, an empty room talking to nobody because they're, like, like, he couldn't travel, so they, like, filmed where he was and

Adam:

there was

Dax:

a green screen. He's like a stage actor, So, like, his whole thing is, like, going off other people and just, like, was, like, such a bad environment compared to, like, the original movies. Yeah. And, yeah, that that feels like like, imagine how fun it is. Like, you go to New Zealand with all these people.

Dax:

You're hanging out every day. You're, like, bonding like a team, and you're doing the stuff. You're acting together. Then, like, fast forward, you're just in a room by yourself. I can see why that's, like, soulless.

Adam:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It sounds like the 2024 version of making movies, like, post COVID.

Dax:

Yeah. Exactly.

Adam:

Get every actor in their own individual room, film them pretending to

Dax:

yeah. Yeah. And they still do it, and they're it's impressive what they what they can do talking to nobody when you see the behind the scenes thing. They're just, like, looking out against the wall. Yeah.

Dax:

So I feel like there was this golden window where, like, they're like, if we're gonna make a movie and it's gonna be a big budget movie, we're gonna do it in hard mode. And I feel like Yeah. It has removed that risk entirely. And, like, the stuff now just feels a little little glossy.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

The new dude

Adam:

I remember.

Dax:

They did film in, like, Tunisia or something. So, like, you can still get that, like, some of that, but, yeah, it's not as off not as common anymore.

Adam:

I could talk about Lord of the Rings for a while. I I feel like I had to pee, and now I don't. So we could just keep going.

Dax:

You swallowed your pee.

Adam:

It's so funny. I get on my 4 year old, like, he holds his pee, and he dances around for, like, 20 minutes. I'm like, please, just go pee. Yeah. But I do the same thing.

Adam:

I do the exact same thing. So what can I say?

Dax:

So you you got super into Lord of the Rings then. It feels like that that's, like, kind of

Adam:

That's, like, high school. Yeah. I've never

Dax:

had a conversation for you with you where, like, you've been really into something pop culture y, so it's, like, kinda surprising?

Adam:

I think I used to be more plugged in. Like, that was that would have been high school time. Like, I was still living at home. Mhmm. My whole family, we watched all the movies, and then we watched all the special footage together.

Adam:

And that was, like, that was a nice time. I have fond memories of all that. I remember thinking Peter Jackson was, like, the coolest human being in the world.

Dax:

That is so impressive.

Adam:

Well I was so excited for his next movie, and then it was, like, the lovely bones or something. I was like, what the fuck? Lord of the Rings of this?

Dax:

I know. Well, I will say, the King Kong movie he made, I actually think, was very good. Know I never saw it, but I think it definitely obviously, not to level Lord of the Rings, but he he, like some of the, like, world building stuff was in there. It was impressive. Okay.

Dax:

Here's my story of Lord of the Rings. So, I had never heard of Lord of the Rings. We were at the mall, like people used to do in the nineties or early 2000, and you would randomly decide to go to a movie. You wouldn't, like, plan it 3 weeks in advance and, like, book tickets or anything. You would just randomly go to a movie.

Adam:

That does feel so foreign, like, such a long time ago. Yeah.

Dax:

So I was with my parents as I was a kid, and we started randomly go to a movie. My mom was pregnant at the time, so we go to The Fellowship of the Ring. No idea what it was. Started watching it.

Adam:

Yeah.

Dax:

Super into it. Super long movie. My mom was, like, really uncomfortable, like, sitting for that long because she was, like, pretty proud of the time.

Adam:

And I kept being like, oh, 5

Dax:

more minutes, 5 more minutes, and then she was like, okay. It's too much. We have to go. And

Adam:

Oh, no.

Dax:

But it was so it was at the scene where, Boromir betrays like, the ring takes over and he, like, betrays the audience or whatever. And so we left there, and I was like, man, I really wanna know what happens in this movie. I can't wait till it comes out on DVD or whatever it was back in time. So I waited a year. Yeah.

Dax:

I got it. I watched the whole movie again to see what happens to the hobbits and what happens to the ring, and there's only 10 minutes left. And I'm, like, go they climbed the mountain and they look at distance, and I didn't know it was a trilogy. I, like, waited a year to think the conclusion to the movie was gonna happen. Like, I thought I missed out.

Dax:

And

Adam:

I'm, like,

Dax:

there's only 10 minutes left after he does that, basically. Like, they get away and then they climb up the mountain and they, like, they they look they look dramatically and you see, like, Mordor and, like, the dragons, and that was it. Yeah. So I was like, oh,

Adam:

I guess there's more movies. I I don't remember how I knew. Like, I didn't read the books before I actually read the books after the movies. Yeah. I don't know how I knew that there were more, but, like, I knew what Lord of the Rings was somehow coming into it.

Adam:

I think I'd read The Hobbit maybe. I'd read The Hobbit before.

Dax:

Yeah. The Hobbit's an easy book to read. I

Adam:

I read that

Dax:

as a kid too. It it is like a kid's book in a lot of ways.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

So I think I knew, but that's so funny that you went into it not knowing anything. Yeah.

Dax:

I waited a year thinking about what happens to the hobbits. Like, how does it differ? I was so excited to find out, and I didn't find out for, like, 7 years or whatever, however long

Adam:

it took it. That's so funny. I love it. Yeah. Those all those movies are long.

Adam:

Right? They're all, like, 3 and a half hours. Yeah. And

Dax:

I think they kinda basically filmed them all in one go. I think they were just, like, continuously doing that.

Adam:

Like, little breaks between yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. And we got we got super into New Zealand after that. I got super into Oh, yeah. New Zealand. Actors.

Adam:

Yeah. Was there, like, ever a country that you were like, I wanna go to that place more than after watching Lord of the Rings when I go to New Zealand? It was just beautiful.

Dax:

It's so impressive because the whole movie is just filmed in New Zealand, and there's so many different, like, climates

Adam:

and, like Different terrains. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

The crazy mountainous stuff.

Adam:

And it's a small island. Right?

Dax:

Like Yeah. Things are gonna

Adam:

be a big place.

Dax:

Yeah. Yeah. And Peter Jackson's from there. Right?

Adam:

Yeah. So he was, like he became God in New Zealand. Right? Like, did they knight him? I wanna say they knighted him.

Adam:

Did they have knights? I don't know. Or maybe I'm thinking of the guy that climbed Mount Everest that got knighted. Yeah. That's what it was.

Dax:

It's so crazy to me that someone it seems so random. Like, someone from this really small place got the chance, like, convinced Hollywood to take a bet on this thing that wasn't didn't really seem like it made a lot of sense. Mhmm. And he happened to be from the place where it was a

Adam:

pretty place film. To shoot it. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. It just like it almost feels like fate. It's, like, so hard to see that.

Adam:

And I feel

Dax:

like this was always supposed to happen.

Adam:

I remember watching all the Hobbit movies after, and it just wasn't the same.

Dax:

It wasn't the same. Like, it

Adam:

didn't capture that that same feeling from watching the original Lord of the Rings movies. And I wanted it to because it was Peter Jackson still, and it was like but I remember thinking, like, this could have been 2 movies. You could probably squeeze it into 1. Definitely didn't need to be 3. But I get, like, if they just wanted to keep making movies because it was a good time.

Dax:

Yeah. I mean, that's a great example of what I was talking about. Like, that movie just feels so glossy, and it's it's the only word that I can use to

Adam:

like, think about, like

Dax:

Oh, yeah. Lord of the Rings, how, like, grungy and dirty everything was. And they try to make stuff look dirty using CGI, but, like, it just doesn't look the same. Like, somebody just Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

Whoever figures that out is gonna, like, be it. Like, what what's everyone missing that CGI doesn't look real?

Adam:

Mhmm. That uncanny valley or whatever. Do you have a favorite of the 3 Lordaeron's movies?

Dax:

It's probably Return of the King. Okay. There's a scene in Return of the King that always, like, basically makes me cry when at the end when the movie's all over and the hobbits are, like, bowing and then Aragorn's, like, you bow to no one. I'm really tearing up thinking about it. Yeah.

Adam:

Oh, wow. Emotional.

Dax:

The thing that always gets me and Liz always makes fun of me for this is any anytime there's, like, honor involved, any kinda, like, deep honor, like, that always makes me tear up. So that scene, like, is like, hits me super hard, so I really remember that a lot. But I think I like 2 towers a lot too because of the battle.

Adam:

2 towers is my favorite. The

Dax:

thalasse or whatever.

Adam:

Something about the, like, they have no hope, the whole movie. Oh, yeah. And but then, like, the way and just the dark that like, it's all, like, rainy and dark, the whole movie. And then that they ever come through, it just feels so hopeless. I something about that movie.

Adam:

I I love that one. And just the the imagery, like, that castle, all of it was done so well.

Dax:

Yeah.

Adam:

There's just this, like, impending dread of, like, this giant army of soulless Yeah. Man eating things. And they're

Dax:

like from, like, one last ride or whatever, and then Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

They go out.

Dax:

And then Gandalf's like, look look for me in the 10th day or whatever.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They come down and out.

Adam:

Yeah. I just I just I just searched on Cameo for Viggo Mortensen. I was totally gonna hit you. It's like, that's about a no one. He doesn't do it.

Adam:

He doesn't he's not on camera.

Dax:

He he no. He's way he's like a he's an extremely good actor.

Adam:

Yeah. He's really good.

Dax:

Yeah. That movie also, that scene where Legolas slides down on the shield down the stairs and, like, shooting the pole. That I feel like that was every teenage boy's, like, perfect perfect scene. Not like I I thought about that it seemed like every day of my life for, like, years after seeing it.

Adam:

I was just like, this is

Dax:

the coolest thing I've ever seen. Like, it was so cool. But now as an adult, I'm like, like, Legolas is not doing it for me. Like, I'm, like, I'm way more into, like, Aragorn characters.

Adam:

Yeah. I was gonna say, who's your favorite character in the series? So it sounds like.

Dax:

Back in the day, I just fell for the flashiness of of Legolas and, like, his acrobatics and all that. But as an adult, I'm like just like the again, just the honor and courage of Aragorn that really speaks to me.

Adam:

It's it's funny when there's, like, there's, like, themes that really get you emotional. Because there's definitely something like that for me, and I can't think of what it is right now. But my my wife could, like, craft the perfect movie scene that would make me cry. Yeah. Because she knows what values or what things, like, get at me, and I can't think of it what it is right now.

Adam:

But, yeah, it's just interesting.

Dax:

It's so stupid for me. I think it's it's literally honor and sacrifice. And when those two things are combined, like, it always makes me tear up to

Adam:

the point where I do it

Dax:

in the dumbest situation. So you're gonna laugh. Ready? The freaking Mulan trailer. They remade they remade Mulan.

Dax:

Okay? And it's probably a horror movie. I never watched it, but the trailer is about how the king comes to the the king's whatever comes down.

Adam:

I hear you. He's demanding. He's starting to choke up a little bit.

Dax:

He's demanding, like, you know, you have to we need people from you have to serve. And then it's, like, this older guy and he's, like, I have to do this for my family. And he's, like, putting on this armor, and he's old, and he's, like, still trying to do his, like, thing. And clearly, like, he's gonna die if he goes and does this. Yeah.

Dax:

Yeah. And so it's just dramatic and then, like, the music. And his daughter decides to go in his place and, like, that, like, made me tear up. I'm just like Yeah. The freaking Mulan remake trailer.

Adam:

I just thought they were remaking Mulan.

Dax:

They did.

Adam:

It was,

Dax:

like, a while ago. It was a couple years ago. Oh, okay. But, yeah, honor plus sacrifice, killer for me.

Adam:

Where where do you think that comes from? Like, is it something you experienced early in life, like, informative years that, like or is it innate in your personality? Like, what I wonder where those things come from, like, that kind of, like, you know you have this this thing that gets at you.

Dax:

I don't know. I think it's maybe, like, just how I the way I see life, like or the way I I don't know. I think to me where it gets me is some of these decisions seem so impossible that people would do these, like, sacrifices or these, like, big things. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax:

That seems so impossible. It seems so superhuman to me that it's, like, so overwhelming. So I don't know where that comes from, but if I think about, like, if I was trying to be, like, the absolute best version of what I think a person could be, like, it goes in that direction. I mean, this even happened to me. Like, I was reading Twitter, and do you remember when Andrew from the Drizzle team was talking about going back to Ukraine?

Dax:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, so

Adam:

I just

Dax:

I read that, and I, like it, like, hit me super hard.

Adam:

It was before

Dax:

we were recording a podcast, and I was there, like, basically crying reading that. Oh, yeah.

Adam:

And, like, I'm not

Dax:

really someone that's super emotional generally. But then, like, thinking about him, like, deciding to go back to be with, like, his family and his, like, country Mhmm. I was like, that seems like it's an impossible decision to make. Like, I would never Yeah.

Adam:

Sometimes.

Dax:

So that stuff just hits me. Kinda brings

Adam:

yeah. It brings a lot of perspective to everything else on Twitter. Yeah. When you see something like that.

Dax:

Yeah. But, you know, anything else oh, yeah. We well, of course, Marley and Me is another classic. We'll make everyone cry.

Adam:

Marley and Me? I never heard of Marley and Me. Is that such as a movie?

Dax:

Fucked up thing. It's, like, the most fucked up movie in the world.

Adam:

Oh, no. Was it a joke that it would make you cry or

Dax:

or not? Do you know what the movie is about?

Adam:

No.

Dax:

It's about a dog, and a family gets a dog.

Adam:

Are you getting emotional?

Dax:

About no. I'm just being dramatic. Oh, okay. It's a story about this family getting this dog and the dog growing up and, like, the impact it has on, like, the trajectory of this family. And guess how it ends?

Dax:

Of course, it ends the way it ends. And it's just like because

Adam:

that's how dogs Yeah. It's so hard to have a dog because you just get attached to it, and it's going to die. Like

Dax:

Yeah. It's forever. Die.

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just remembered you have a dog. Sorry.

Dax:

No. I knew it. It's fine. I brought it up. But this movie is so fucked up.

Dax:

I'm, like, why did you why did you make this movie? Like, why did you tell this story? Like, of course, it's gonna devastate every the whole theater was, like, in tears. So sadist

Adam:

that just enjoys? Yeah.

Dax:

Enjoys that deal. Playing.

Adam:

Tearing everyone's heart out. Yeah. It's fucked up fucked up

Dax:

to make a movie like that.

Adam:

Who made that movie? Scorsese? Was it you? Who was it?

Dax:

It was a book originally.

Adam:

Oh, okay. Blame them. Yeah. Did I tell you I sold a domain?

Dax:

Wow. 1 of your 500?

Adam:

I've never sold a domain. Yeah. I think I paid for every domain I've bought that wasn't, like, a big time purchase domain. Like, all the little domains I bought over the years, all paid for because I sold one domain. And you know what the domain was?

Dax:

Oh, what is it?

Adam:

Cha Ching. I love it so much because, like, I made money off of Cha Ching. What are the odds? When when GoDaddy, like, did the dot ing tld, like, they they announced this, you know, you could buy. So people were buying a bunch of, like, stupid stuff, and I was like, what would what would end in ing and be funny?

Adam:

And I did chach, like c h a c h, ing. And I thought that's funny.

Dax:

That recent? That was, like, kinda recent. Right?

Adam:

It was, like, 6 months ago. I don't know. Whenever they did that announcement.

Dax:

And you've already turned it around?

Adam:

I already turned it around, sold it, and feels good. 1,000 of dollars. It's just I've never sold a domain before. I've only spent about $1,000 on domains. Feels good.

Dax:

Good to be the other guy for once.

Adam:

The irony of cha ching.

Dax:

Yeah. I know. That's so beautiful. Again, fate.

Adam:

Yeah. Now I get to just, like, watch that domain and see who built something on it and know, like, what were they gonna do with it. I thought, like, a payments company, you know, cha ching. I don't know. We'll see.

Adam:

I bet it's like some cryptoscan. I'll probably, okay. I really do have to pee now. Okay. It was inevitable.

Adam:

There is a limit on how long we can record, and it's my bladder. Yeah. I don't know when we're gonna release this one because I think Monday we'll do the part 2 of Ken. Did you listen to the end of, our last episode of the part 1?

Dax:

No. Yeah.

Adam:

How how Chris wrapped it up? No. He just he came on and he was like, the conversation with Ken will continue and the next day like, hey, this is Chris. It's so good.

Dax:

Uh-huh. That's really cool.

Adam:

You gotta listen to it. Yeah. So it's like this

Dax:

suspense. Movie. Because you

Adam:

remember we didn't really end that episode, and I know we never really end an episode that well. But, like

Dax:

That was really bad. We, like, all fell off.

Adam:

Fell off. Yeah. And it was just like, so he made it work. Like, it actually worked. And people are excited for the next part 2.

Adam:

Like, there's people, like, on the edge of their seats. I love it.

Dax:

Good job, Chris. That's amazing.

Adam:

Good job, Chris. You're the best. Okay. I got a tea. Alright.

Adam:

See you next. Yep.

Creators and Guests

Adam Elmore
Host
Adam Elmore
AWS DevTools Hero and co-founder @statmuse. Husband. Father. Brother. Sister?? Pet?!?
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Dax Raad
Host
Dax Raad
building @SST_dev and @withbumi
X Website Link
Chris Enns
Editor
Chris Enns
I edit podcasts so you don't have to.
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