Adam: 00:00

Yeah. I don't know what the voice thing I was doing there was all about, who I'm being, but

Dax: 00:04

Angry web standard person voice.

Adam: 00:06

Actually, I do. Yeah. I do know who I'm being, but I'm not gonna say

Dax: 00:09

I know who you're being. What What is that? What are you cracking open?

Adam: 00:42

It's, Milla. I'm glad you asked.

Dax: 00:45

What's it? Is that the watermelon drink? Yeah, there's

Adam: 00:48

some Oh my god. I don't know where you can get them. I get them at Mama Jean's, and I've never seen them in any other place. Whole Foods, nowhere. I don't know why they exist here in the Ozarks.

Dax: 00:59

You look really, really cute with your little pink drink with the little it. Children's growing on

Adam: 01:06

them. Yeah. This is the passion fruit flavor, which is pink.

Dax: 01:09

Oh my god.

Adam: 01:09

They also have, pineapple. You're like, I don't care. Never mind. There's pineapple. There's, oh, there's a a ginger one that's delicious.

Dax: 01:19

We're not even sponsored by them.

Adam: 01:21

We should be. I'll reach out now. I would love to get sponsored by, like, random food companies. That'd just be hilarious to me. Like, most tech companies are sponsored by, you know, tech things.

Adam: 01:33

You tried with Alara Bar. The tech podcast. I did try. You know what? I tried really hard.

Adam: 01:38

It still annoys me. It's a huge missed opportunity for them. It's General Mills. They bought Lara Parr. I even DM'd Lara herself.

Adam: 01:46

She won't even answer me.

Dax: 01:48

Yes. I agree with that. And did you see me post that picture of Wait.

Adam: 01:53

You agree with what?

Dax: 01:54

What it that I asked. They should sponsor us. The people should sponsor us.

Adam: 01:57

Yes. They should sponsor us.

Dax: 01:59

I think the ROI is higher than you expect. So the other day, I posted that picture of that built on. I don't know if you saw me post it. And you probably ignored it because it was a little bit of

Adam: 02:07

Oh, yeah. The Meet thing. Yeah.

Dax: 02:08

Yeah. Yeah. So I posted about that and ended up get getting, like, A ton of views. And then, like, a week later, a ton of people were posting, like, hey, just ordered mine or just got it in the mail. Like, it's delicious.

Dax: 02:22

And I definitely sold a bunch.

Adam: 02:24

Oh, for sure.

Dax: 02:24

And I made a bunch of people aware of this.

Adam: 02:27

Yeah. I know a few people that bought Mode keyboards because of my streams.

Dax: 02:30

Yeah. And they're expensive.

Adam: 02:32

Yeah. And I got nothing out of it. I need to I need to get a referral code or something.

Dax: 02:36

I know. Yeah. It's, like, At least one person will buy anything that you talk about. Like, I even talked about the the head shaver I used once, and then someone bought it.

Adam: 02:46

It's awesome. That's a

Dax: 02:48

random thing.

Adam: 02:48

This is how our economy works, isn't it? Yeah.

Dax: 02:51

I mean, I just wanted to, like, it. But, yeah. Liz pointed this out to me.

Adam: 02:55

She was

Dax: 02:55

like, every single thing she sees in stores now is like a celebrity thing. Like, when she goes to, like, For her to get makeup and stuff. She just sees it's all celebrity branded

Adam: 03:06

Yeah. Stuff.

Dax: 03:07

Because, like, if you have reach, it's just such a it. Crazy competitive advantage. So

Adam: 03:13

Yeah. That's, like, kind of a recent phenomena. Right? Like, the last 10 years, I feel like the individual has become way more powerful than it. Or or, like, as a representative for brands.

Adam: 03:22

It happened in sports too. I follow sports pretty closely Mhmm. With my company. And, like, the athlete became empowered over the teams. And now, like, you see this wave of, like, players just being like, I don't wanna play for this team anymore.

Adam: 03:35

And then they forced themselves to get traded. Like, that didn't happen 20 years ago. So it is interesting. I don't know if it's social media, if it's what it is, but the individual has so much more pull when they did.

Dax: 03:44

Yeah. On some level, it kinda sucks because I feel like we're seeing dynasties show up. And that's, like, I think fundamentally, dynasty's are bad. Like, I you see kids of famous people Just in everything now.

Adam: 03:59

Is this like the Kardashians? Is that what you mean?

Dax: 04:02

Kardashians are 1, but, Like, we've watched a bunch of movies lately and we're like, oh, who's this actress? And every time we've looked it up, it's been that their parents were it. Actors or actresses themselves. Like, it's Yeah. I feel like at least half the time that's the case, if not more.

Dax: 04:17

It's, like, pretty surprising to see someone, like, breakthrough. Yeah. And then the Kardashian example is another one, like, that just they're on the like, the grandkids are now, like, starting to enter their teens. So we'll see if it just continues where yeah. So it's just, like, it kinda sucks in a way.

Dax: 04:34

Like, dynasties aren't great.

Adam: 04:35

It's like nepotism is more it's more easily pulled off when the individual has power.

Dax: 04:40

Yeah. I feel like people figured it out and they were I think I think historically celebrities would just it. Get rich, blow all their money, and maybe even die not very wealthy. And now, like, they're all really savvy, and they know that they can leverage it to, like, it. Create these businesses that last beyond them.

Dax: 04:57

Even the NBA. Right? That was a common, story where People would retire, and then they would have no money by the time they were Yeah. In their forties. And that doesn't happen anymore, which is good on that side, but, like, it.

Dax: 05:10

The dynasty thing is something I don't I don't really like.

Adam: 05:13

Man, there's something I really wanna talk about with this whole, like, info well, we can't. It's it's something I really wanna talk about and I'm very excited about. There's a little teaser for somebody.

Dax: 05:24

There is something that we wanna talk about, but we can't, but we will talk about.

Adam: 05:29

Me and Dax are starting a dynasty. I don't know what that means.

Dax: 05:37

But you said you said General Mills earlier. So one of our, at a previous company, one of our investors had this it. House on in the Adirondacks, on this lake. It is like a rich person lake.

Adam: 05:49

In the what now?

Dax: 05:49

In the Adirondacks. It's in, like, Northern New York.

Adam: 05:52

Say say it one

Dax: 05:53

more time. Sydney York? Adirondacks.

Adam: 05:55

Just wanna see if you could say it consistently three times. That's a hard word. I don't know. I've never heard of

Dax: 05:59

that word.

Adam: 06:00

I feel like you know, like, an Adirondack chair, like, You know? Probably. Have you ever heard it said? Or have you only ever read it? Because this could be really embarrassing for you when we find out how it's really pronounced.

Dax: 06:08

No. No. This is not it's not one of those things.

Adam: 06:10

Okay. Okay. Anarondex. Did I do it right?

Dax: 06:12

Broken up the wrong tree. Yeah. Anarondex.

Adam: 06:14

Anarondex. Anarondex. What was

Dax: 06:16

it? Adirondex.

Adam: 06:18

Adirondex. I think you said Anna the first time, but I'm gonna let it slide. It's okay.

Dax: 06:23

I see what it feels like to be on the other side of this, and I don't like it.

Adam: 06:27

Stuff under there. Okay. Continue.

Dax: 06:29

And he had a pretty they call them camps. They don't call them houses. It's a really, like, rich person, a little insight because they are kinda like camps. It's usually, like, one property is several houses. Like, they had a main house and they had, like, 2 other cabins that we stayed in.

Adam: 06:45

Okay. And

Dax: 06:45

theirs was, like, you know, a nice house, and it was built, you know, a 100 years ago. Pretty crazy. Then they took us on a boat tour, like, around the lake. And these people are so funny because they were, like, old money. Like, the guy the investor was in his sixties, and his parent his, like, grandfather was rich.

Dax: 07:02

Like, they've they've been rich for a while, and the house had been their family for a while. And they were going around. They were pointing out, like, that's new money. Like, we don't like them, and it's always, like, A much flashier house, than theirs. And then we drove by the the biggest one there.

Dax: 07:17

It. There. It was insane. It's a gigantic property. It had literally 40 buildings on it.

Dax: 07:21

It's a single property, like, in the woods on the lake with 40 buildings on it. Like, you could You could house everyone you know. It gets pretty insane. Yeah. And it was, like, the heiress of General Mills or something.

Adam: 07:33

Oh, that's And

Dax: 07:34

that's what

Adam: 07:34

you have. Tie it all back into General Mills. Okay.

Dax: 07:36

Yeah. So they got the money if Yeah. If they wanna throw it down here.

Adam: 07:40

Is that the play if you, if you, like, came into a $100,000,000? Is it, like, build a village and just move all your friends and family there? So you just get, like, this perfect life where you have all the people around you?

Dax: 07:51

I would try.

Adam: 07:52

And you hire them all to do random stuff?

Dax: 07:54

That's kinda what, Elizabeth will do it. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone in the family works for him and

Adam: 07:59

Oh, yeah. I know several stories like that. Like, it seems like the move. I I it doesn't take what what's the what's the amount of money where, like, you're just you're good for life and you just have this amazing easy life? I think 10,000,000 is probably enough.

Dax: 08:13

10,000,000 is at low risk, what, 5% interest rate now. That gets you 500 k a year doing nothing? Yeah. That's yeah. That's pretty No sharks.

Adam: 08:27

That'll do. Yeah. I know actually, I I had dinner. Sorry. Right.

Adam: 08:30

And that, there was a person, a friend of a friend here in the area that we went and had dinner with them once. They had sold, like, a medical tech company or something for $10,000,000. So I've seen what that life looks like. They were in probably, like, their late fifties. They were kinda older.

Adam: 08:46

But, yeah, they just chilled, like, played card games with their friends and had wine and dinner

Dax: 08:50

and whatever.

Adam: 08:51

It's like that was their life.

Dax: 08:52

That seems nice. What kind of car do they have?

Adam: 08:55

I don't remember. This has been, like, almost 10 years ago.

Dax: 08:58

Okay. Guess it wasn't memorable.

Adam: 09:00

No. What I wanna talk about is there's actually a few things. But the main one that's top of mind is I I don't wanna frame it as bundle sizes because that sounds boring. This is

Dax: 09:12

not that is not where I like, that's No.

Adam: 09:16

We thought

Dax: 09:16

I I was so surprised. I thought it was gonna be some, like, not something not related to tech at all. And to have you bring up something so zoomed in, like the bundle size, like

Adam: 09:25

I know. That's why I said I didn't wanna frame it as bundle sizes.

Dax: 09:28

Oh, I see.

Adam: 09:29

Because it's actually about the Anirondacks. And no. It. I have this this this conundrum that I'm in the middle of. Alright.

Adam: 09:37

And I've I think I've already talked to you a little bit about it, but I'm no more settled than I was, when I last mentioned it to you. And in in fact, I have more questions and more random obscure technologies I've run into, and I wanna just throw all this at your face and hear your visceral reaction.

Dax: 09:54

Yeah.

Adam: 09:55

And if it ends up being just use React, I'm gonna be upset because

Dax: 09:59

I think it's gonna end up there, but

Adam: 10:01

I think it is too, and I'm gonna be upset. But at least, I guess, I'll have a reason to go React Miami now. I won't feel quite as weird. Okay. So, big project, or I I a mature product.

Adam: 10:14

Okay? Website. Lots of people hit this website every day. It. Like, Wikipedia, in terms of the use case.

Adam: 10:22

Millions of pages that are unique, but they're largely just static pages with very little interactivity. Think, like, drop downs to filter data, like type ahead in a search bar, some menus. I mean, there's very little, like, tab control. Like, there's just not a lot of it's mostly, like, looking at data. Okay?

Adam: 10:42

So that sets the stage. This website, now is being kind of re, visually designed. Just gonna be like putting a new coat of paint on it. Right? And with that, there's sort of like a design system being created.

Adam: 10:58

And for the first time, we're gonna need to, like, have some consistency across a bunch of of these interactive pieces, and we kinda know what they should look and feel like. And It feels like a moment to say, hey, maybe we should pick, like, a UI framework or library or whatever to to use. It's an Astro site, by the way. Mhmm. So it's already Astro.

Adam: 11:22

And to date, we've just sprinkled in little bits of JavaScript, Mostly in script tags, just like vanilla JavaScript, because, I don't know, Astro kinda, like, tells you how to do that, and then it's like, oh, yeah. It's just JavaScript. I can do this. But then we did start using we have, like, a handful of Svelte components because I randomly wanted to see what Svelte was like. Okay?

Adam: 11:42

So So now I found out. Don't love it. Just I just looking at it, it's not familiar at all. It doesn't remind me of anything, and it just kinda feels gross. I don't know.

Adam: 11:52

It's not Svelte's fault. It. It's just my lack of familiarity with Svelte. Yeah. Additional data point, or consideration, I guess.

Adam: 12:01

That this is going to be an open source repo. It is open source. We just haven't talked about it to anybody yet, but we're gonna be promoting it as like, hey. You're a fan of this product and you happen to know how to code? Join the open source community, and you can be a part of it, whatever, or even just for learning purposes.

Adam: 12:16

So there's gonna be, like, potentially friction introducing obscure technologies on that front. Like, if it's something that we would like other people to or even just within our own team, just up to speed quickly and contribute on the front end. That kinda matters. So, like, path of leisure distance would be nice. It.

Adam: 12:36

All that said, it just feels bad to me. It just feels so gross to drop React in for a drop down. Like, this page that a 1000000 people will hit today, And I'm gonna throw the React runtime on this page so that I can create a select that I can style. Yeah. First of all, side note.

Adam: 12:53

Why can't you style the drop down part of a select element?

Dax: 12:56

What if we install the technology?

Adam: 12:58

We don't have

Dax: 12:58

a text. Years to develop, it. What's it called? What's that new thing that's coming out? Select menu?

Adam: 13:03

Menu, but it's actually now select list, I think. Yeah. Why okay. This is not my point, and I gotta get back to it. But why is it so slow?

Adam: 13:10

Why is the web browser standards process so incredibly slow? Can we not move faster? There's, like, 4 browsers. Can we not, like, as a group, be like, you know what? We've taken a decade to do something that could be done in 3 months.

Adam: 13:23

Let's just do it in 3 months. I'm not I'm not talking about select list. I'm just saying, like, what is it about the process that is inherently slow?

Dax: 13:30

Yeah. So I think it. You're so I watched this podcast with, Aaron Boodman, the founder of Replicash, and he used to work on Chrome. And he was giving a little bit of a history of, like data in the browser, like storing data in the browser. Mhmm.

Dax: 13:44

And it was so interesting to hear because it. He goes over a bunch of technologies that they, like, tried to put in the browser. Like, at Google, they would, like, try to put something in, and then no one else would adopt it. So then they would, like, tweak it try to put it in, and then no one else would adopt it. It's super super slow, I think, because everything you put in has to be a 100% backwards compatible forever.

Dax: 14:07

Why. You can never deprecate anything.

Adam: 14:09

Can we not? I get I'm okay. But you could still introduce new fun stuff without deprecating the old stuff. Right? I guess.

Dax: 14:16

Well, if you introduce something new and it ends up being a bad idea or a bad implementation, but there's websites out there that ended up using it, It's there forever. You know?

Adam: 14:25

Oh, I see. So there's some hesitancy to move fast because you're creating stuff that's gonna live on in perpetuity.

Dax: 14:31

Yeah. I think so. I think it's, like, the most conservative thing in the world in terms of Yeah. Adding stuff. Okay.

Adam: 14:37

That that makes sense. In this sort of politics, you're saying, like, there's this gotta get consensus from all the major players.

Dax: 14:44

Yeah. Just imagine getting 2 engineers to agree in general, like, any 2 engineers to agree.

Adam: 14:48

But, like, I feel like every engineer in the world, I could get them in the room right now, and we'd all raise our hand if we wanted to build style every piece of the select control.

Dax: 14:55

Yeah. But then the question is, like, how? Like, what's the right abstraction for that? And then I think that just ends up taking literal years. Oh.

Adam: 15:00

It's a Man, why does it seem so easy from the outside? I'm sure it's not. I I respect all of you people working on browsers. I'm not trying to gloss over how hard it is.

Dax: 15:09

He was talking about ASM or sorry. Web ASM. Wait. WASM? What am I saying?

Dax: 15:15

It. I couldn't find the words. WASM, web ASM. Sound like a freaking I

Adam: 15:19

have literally never heard it called web ASM. Well, that's it.

Dax: 15:23

What is it?

Adam: 15:23

Not like the Anurag accent. Oh, my word.

Dax: 15:29

WASM, which also, you know, doesn't sound great. And From our point of view, I feel like, like, being an outsider, it's, oh, yeah. Browser's added WASM. And now you can do, like, you know, you can compile native code and run it in the browser. Great.

Dax: 15:42

It. He was talking about how there were, like, 3 other attempts at this before. Like, they launched something. I forgot what it was called. It was, like, it.

Dax: 15:49

Blah blah blah. And then people didn't like it because it wasn't portable enough. So then I made p blah blah blah, which is, like, portable blah blah blah. And they were like, Actually, no. Just fuck all of that.

Dax: 16:00

It just went it just keeps going, and eventually, you know, something makes it through. But That seems like it was, like, a 6 or 7 year effort, maybe. I'm just guessing from the way he told it.

Adam: 16:13

I could see how, yeah, I could see how WASM would be a big one. I mean, web awesome.

Dax: 16:18

I know.

Adam: 16:18

Web awesome. Web ASM. I can see how that one is, like, some turns. But for some reason, like, I don't know, something about the select control thing, it's just it feels like a bug. That doesn't feel like a new thing needs to be introduced.

Adam: 16:32

It's like fix the bug. Make it where we can style select. That. That's all. Just make that, please.

Dax: 16:36

Yeah. But then the question is always just how. Like, so Liz is doing Liz is doing an HTML course because she's getting more hands on with stuff. And she was showing me some of the stuff you made. And I was just like, what the hell is all of that?

Dax: 16:47

Like, she knows all of these, like, native HTML stuff that it. I'd never heard of, like Yeah. All these, like, weird things that I guess are useful and correct, but, like, I kinda use those. Let's be honest, we're just, like, divs all day for the most part.

Adam: 17:01

Yeah. Is that I think it's probably more the front end, like, SPA philosophy. It's like, you're gonna build all the stuff anyway, just as much of divs. But I think the people care more about the semantic HTML stuff when you're like, web standards, and I'm just gonna generate pages on the back end. And Yeah.

Adam: 17:18

Yeah. I don't know what the voice thing I was doing there was all about. Who am

Dax: 17:21

I being? But Angry web standard person voice.

Adam: 17:24

Actually, I do yeah. I do know who I'm being, but I'm not gonna say.

Dax: 17:27

I I know who you're being.

Adam: 17:31

That's funny. Oh, that's too good. I hope they don't listen and and I hope they don't know. Exactly. Anyway

Dax: 17:41

So I think I'm down for those new components when they have have a lot of behavior that are that are built in. We just raided us.

Adam: 17:48

I I'm Prime.

Dax: 17:49

With the 1871. I can't even look at the chat right now. This is I know. It's gonna be really hard. Like, what those newer component, are they called elements?

Dax: 17:59

Man, I can't I can't find my words today. It. Those newer elements, when they come with behavior that we were, like, manually creating, like, you know, the the new, like, modal components.

Adam: 18:10

Is there, like, a dialogue now? Is there dialogue built in?

Dax: 18:13

A dialogue to be properly accessible is, like, so complicated. Like, you have to make sure you have the escape Key to close it. You have to make sure you focus trapped so you can't scroll while it's open.

Adam: 18:23

But the native one does all that stuff. Right?

Dax: 18:25

It does all

Adam: 18:25

that stuff. Accessibility. So if you could just style it, if If you just make all the cuts can you style that one well? Okay. So it's just Yes.

Dax: 18:32

Select the steps. The newer elements coming out, that it. Handle all these common cases are also very stylable. So I think that's what select menu is. It's like probably behavior wise, it might even be better than the existing Select component, and it's also gonna be stylable.

Dax: 18:48

Yeah. Yeah. So but, you know, it takes takes time.

Adam: 18:51

Back to my problem at hand. If I can't style select element, which I can't, I can either drop React into this page, that again. It's like it's like if Wikipedia had React on it. Wikipedia doesn't have React, does it? Some this example is gonna break down if they do.

Dax: 19:08

Maybe they did react. They have a they have a article called React.

Adam: 19:12

Well, you know what I meant. Like, they don't use React on Wikipedia, I wouldn't think. Yeah. It's not a good fit. Right?

Adam: 19:21

Just doesn't feel right. So then there's, like, all these other things. I wanna get into other options I ran into. So web components, custom elements. In HTML, you can, like, define custom element.

Adam: 19:32

You're already shaking your head now. Just go ahead and

Dax: 19:34

change it now. If we break this down from ground up, Like, what are you trying to do? You're trying to create some non native behavior that like, in the browser, Basically. Like, you you have a few cases where you need stuff that is non native. Right?

Adam: 19:49

I guess so. Yes. Yeah. It just feels like it is native because there is a select element. It's just it looks terrible.

Dax: 19:56

Yeah. It like, you you outgrew that, so you need to, like, you know, do some non native stuff. You don't wanna actually it. Build that completely from scratch because doing non native stuff is complicated. Like, a properly accessible select thing is Yeah.

Dax: 20:10

There's a smart component. Yeah. So, like, a web component doesn't solve that because what you're actually looking for is someone that's already implemented the JavaScript that does this really well and has packaged it in a reusable way. Yes.

Adam: 20:25

But I guess, like, I'm saying the alternative to using React enter or to using any front end framework with a bunch of custom JavaScript stuff is, like, use the standards. And there's this web component thing where I could find something that wraps up all that functionality, which I have found, and I'll tell like, there's Microsoft Fast. Have you heard of this? I'd never heard

Dax: 20:45

of this one. I I saw someone reply to you with that, and I was looking at it.

Adam: 20:48

It's interesting. I don't think we're gonna go that way because of a few things. But it's, like, it's based on web components. So it's, like, not It's using this new thing within the browser that works natively. Yeah.

Adam: 21:02

I don't know. And it gives me that radix like accessibility and stuff built up.

Dax: 21:06

Well, that's what I'm talking about. Like, that's just a packaging format. So you you just first, you need to look to see who has implemented this well and how they chosen to package it. That's a good secondary concern. Right?

Dax: 21:16

So obviously, a lot because React is so big, there's, like, the React, ARIA, and then, like, the Adobe. Or maybe those are the same thing. It. Well

Adam: 21:25

Those Yeah. There's so many options on the React side.

Dax: 21:27

Yeah. So they've implemented, but the downside is they packaged it as a React component, which feels, like, really heavy for you.

Adam: 21:34

Yes. Right. Exactly. That's my problem.

Dax: 21:37

Someone could package it, and then someone could have just written it in, like, pure JavaScript and, like, given you some JavaScript, like a jQuery type it. Thing from back in the day. Like, someone could that's also

Adam: 21:45

jQuery 4 just came out. Maybe I should add that to my decision matrix.

Dax: 21:49

Yeah. It. Like those jQuery UI things. Right? Like, that was, like, another way to package complex behavior.

Dax: 21:56

I don't think web components are inherently better. I think they're just a way to package. They're technically standardized, but, like, to me, it's, like, not any different than just a JavaScript library.

Adam: 22:06

It's finding stuff. Is it less JavaScript that has to run. Or it's no. I guess it's the same. Because it's all about the React activity.

Dax: 22:12

Right? Like, people can maybe

Adam: 22:13

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Dax: 22:14

It just comes down to implementation. So then I think

Adam: 22:16

But I don't have to have the runtime.

Dax: 22:18

That's the there's a lot

Adam: 22:19

of extra stuff that comes with React. If I'm just building literally a drop down

Dax: 22:23

Yeah. But I'm saying, like, a pure JavaScript it. Library that just implements interactivity and, like, mutates a DOM is not worse than the web component. I gotcha. Because those are, like, similar in terms of weights.

Adam: 22:36

They're both just JavaScript packaged up different ways.

Dax: 22:38

Yeah. Then I think you probably saw, Like that zag thing, which is kind of that. I did. Just a pure JavaScript thing. No UI stuff.

Dax: 22:46

Just the complex logic to That you can, like, you know, bind to certain UI elements. Yeah. Then there's, like, other frameworks that are maybe not as heavy as React. So maybe that's why you play with Svelte because For small apps, the bundle size tends to be the smallest and, like, like, Solid is, like, very close to that. I think Solid scales better, like, if your app gets bigger, Solid ends up crossing Svelte in terms of So the overall size.

Adam: 23:12

I think I have a misunderstanding of something, though. It. So other options that'll help frame my misunderstanding, there's, like, Alpine people pointed me to, and, Caleb from Alpine reached out and told me he's got this Alpine components, which are basically like Radix, but with Alpine. Yeah. Alpine's a little heavier than something like Svelte or Solid, I think.

Adam: 23:33

Yeah. Their latest version is anyway. Someone pointed me to, like, Lit, which is just a a framework that's a little bit higher abstraction on top of web components. There's Stencil. There's that family of things.

Adam: 23:44

I think my misunderstanding is, like, I look at certain options like alpine versus Solid. And I think of Solid as being, like, fundamentally, philosophically about generating DOM elements in JavaScript. Whereas I view And don't correct me yet. You're probably already, like, you have the right answer. But I view, like, Alpine as philosophically modifying existing DOM elements that we created in our ASTRO templates.

Adam: 24:10

Like, our like, we have some kind of server side way of generating a page, and we have a bunch of HTML, and then we just wanna sprinkle stuff. I just wanna sprinkle. You know?

Dax: 24:17

Yeah.

Adam: 24:17

But, philosophically, I wanna sprinkle JS. I don't wanna start with JS, and I don't want it to feel like a client side rendered thing. But then you said something yesterday about well, yeah, Astro will just server render. It'll it'll, like, server render your React components. I was like, oh, I'm dumb.

Adam: 24:32

The drop down is not gonna, like, be generated on the browser. It. It's generated and then hydrated. That's what the word hydration is? That's what the did I figure it out?

Dax: 24:41

You got it. But look at it. This is the best way to understand something. You, like, discovered it on your own.

Adam: 24:45

So then Solid, I had put in the camp with React where it doesn't really fit what I wanna do, which is, again, I wanna sprinkle JavaScript. I just wanna sprinkle interactivity on my static page. But it doesn't matter because Astro's gonna server render solid just like it would well, is it? Is it server render solid just like

Dax: 25:01

it would okay. It. Yep.

Adam: 25:03

So it would fundamentally, we could use Solid, and I could be cool like you. Because you use Solid, and I've always wanted to be cool like you and use Solid. Yeah.

Dax: 25:13

So that that's kind of why I'm saying I think the primary decision is you want someone to have done this work of building these interactive it. Reusable things. And do you've did you find like, did you find a project where you're, like, I really like the way they did it, and it clicks for me? And then you secondarily, you, like, consider the way they packaged it.

Adam: 25:33

Yeah. So I've always loved Radix on the React side. And I know now React area is getting a lot of love. Like, I know there's even other options. Mhmm.

Adam: 25:43

The headless UI. There's all these different options. Solid, I know there's an equivalent, right, to Radix or something pretty good?

Dax: 25:48

Yeah. We we we've been using Cobalt. Yeah. That's great.

Adam: 25:51

Svelte there's actually a few things in Svelte World too. That's that's a pretty big community.

Dax: 25:55

I don't

Adam: 25:56

know if you noticed. So there's a lot of filters. Selt Selties? I don't know. Sounds like Swifties.

Adam: 26:02

It. Svelte has MELT, which is what we're using today.

Dax: 26:06

Has MELT. Yeah. Oh, my god.

Adam: 26:07

So they have a Radix port, and the guy that was porting Radix it was like, actually, this is dumb. It doesn't fit Svelte's model, so he abandoned it. Like, just maintain maintenance mode or whatever in GitHub and built MELT. And it has a ton of components, actually. Maybe even more than radix.

Adam: 26:22

Mhmm. And I'd like the way it comes together. I just don't like the way Svelte looks, so I kinda wanna abandon Svelte. And now you're really making me think we should just move to Solid.

Dax: 26:31

Well, okay. So there's also another thing here where, Solid is In my head, it's 2 things. There's the templating language, which is which is what lets you, like, create, like, write JSX. It. I might have those elements get created both on the server and on the client.

Dax: 26:48

But then there's like the low level reactive primitives that let you, like, find stuff. Yeah. I talked about this a little bit before. So a lot of my solid components, I actually just use document dot query selector, it. Select elements and, like, add data attribute.

Dax: 27:04

Like, I don't I'm not really, like, doing the whole Solid thing. So Really? I'm, like, writing, like, it. Pretty normal JavaScript. And when I do need some kind of reactivity and, like, binding, like, I I will use some of those some of those things there.

Dax: 27:16

This is so surprising to me

Adam: 27:16

because you were so it to me because you were so early on Solid. Why would you not embrace the Solid?

Dax: 27:21

This is the best part about Solid is that all the JSX elements are just normal DOM elements. So

Adam: 27:27

Okay. Just React, it's different. Right? There's

Dax: 27:30

Right. So the solid part, like really melts away. It's really just a templating language. There's some primitives for reactivity where you need it, and then you can just Grab the elements and then, like, treat them the same way we used in the jQuery world. And, I find it really, really simple.

Dax: 27:47

And you can do that in React too. It's just a you're, like, fighting the paradigm a little bit more. But this I actually got this idea initially because, Ryan Florence posted a combo box he built in React, and He didn't use, like, any React. He just had, like, document dot query selector and just how we would do it back in the day. So

Adam: 28:03

Yeah. So

Dax: 28:05

I don't think these things are that heavy. I think yeah. I think you just have to, like, measure what heavy actually means.

Adam: 28:12

Yeah. I I really don't I said I don't wanna frame it as bundle size because I don't know if I care about the actual kilobytes going over the wire or being run when the page initializes.

Dax: 28:20

Oh, like, did oh, then what do you care about?

Adam: 28:22

Well, I I mean, I don't know how much I care about that because, like, every site uses React. And, like Yeah. If it works for other sites, it can work for us. Like, if it works for Facebook, whatever. Like, they have a lot of users, I think.

Adam: 28:32

Do people still use Facebook? I don't know. Yeah. To me, it's more of the philosophy. It.

Adam: 28:39

I think it's more just, like, the vibes. I just don't like the React situation.

Dax: 28:44

Mhmm.

Adam: 28:44

So that makes me turned off from it. But at Same time, the community is so large. I feel like we're getting pulled toward, should we just use React because everybody uses React? And if it's gonna be open source and other people need to maybe work on it, Just feels like this inevitability of React, and I hate it. But, like, is how do you feel about the community size and the ecosystem, Solid versus React?

Adam: 29:04

Like, is it it's on a trajectory that, like, I I'm not gonna be wanting for anything. Or do you have opinions?

Dax: 29:09

Yeah. To me, it's not yeah. It's like this question comes up a lot, And there's obviously you can't deny size. Like, size is a dimension that matters. But to me, it's the same as, like, comparing companies just purely by size.

Dax: 29:26

Like, you can't Say Google will always ship a better product because they're bigger than a smaller company. It's usually, like, weirdly sized almost as, like, the opposite in that case. Yeah. So For me, there was a point early on in Solid where I felt like, oh, there's actually literally nothing. Like, for the most part, anytime I need to integrate with something else, I'm doing it myself.

Dax: 29:47

But then, like, a few things happen, like Cobalt came out. There's this new form library called modular forms. It's written by the guy it. They made this other thing called Valobot, and Valobot generally is, like like, the next generation idea of, like, Zod. So, like, To me, some of the best people in this space are also

Adam: 30:05

I'm trying to parse all that. Sorry.

Dax: 30:07

Yeah. There's just

Adam: 30:07

The next generation of Zod? Isn't Zod, like, very cutting edge and hip?

Dax: 30:11

It. What's what's so XOD is cool, and there's a lot of validation libraries. And the problem with Zod is a chaining API. It makes it so you basically ship all of Zod even if you just use, like, 2 of the validators. So valid bot is like a really shaking focus version of Zod.

Dax: 30:30

I think the Solid team actually sponsored the per the work that the person did behind it.

Adam: 30:34

Okay.

Dax: 30:35

I think it was even part of their, like, masters or or something Academic related. Then that person went and made this thing called modular forms, which is so good. It's like a really great forms library. It. It integrates perfectly with Cobalt.

Dax: 30:47

So everything is, like, coming together and meshing. So I'm at a point where I feel like, oh, this is, like, what React people must feel like it. All the time. Because, like

Adam: 30:56

Like, it's gotten there. You go system wise.

Dax: 30:58

A few libraries that are the best, and they all work nicely with each other, and they're very composable. So the past 6 months, I would say, I don't feel lack of ecosystem in Solid. Yeah. Everyone's car is different. It.

Dax: 31:12

And even if you look at Cobalt, I'm sure if you drill down to Cobalt's behavior and, like, compare components 1 to 1 with, it. Some of the stuff in React. I'm sure the React stuff gets stuff more correct. Just the the other dimension is, like, there's a age of some of these things. So

Adam: 31:27

Yeah. Just maturity.

Dax: 31:28

Yeah. So you're just not gonna go wrong picking React. The only reason I would pick Solid is it. If you just find using React frustrating.

Adam: 31:41

So I guess the the React frustrating thing, I definitely, like I It was 8 years of building React before I kinda stopped. I felt like there were things that still didn't stick after 8 years, useEffect usage. That that sounds like a meme, but I really did feel like I probably used it way too much and just sprinkled it everywhere to solve every problem. There's definitely stuff in the, like, the edges of React that didn't feel great, but I'd like I but I know how to write React apps. So it's like there's an advantage there.

Adam: 32:10

Our team is very familiar with React. Choosing Solid versus React is really probably more like just, like, getting out of the React drama, I guess. And, like, Ryan I think Ryan is, like, the smartest guy in the space. So it feels good to use something he made, I

Dax: 32:28

guess. Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah. For me, it was like, It was the same it was kind of similar where I was, like, I've spent years using React.

Dax: 32:37

I spent a lot of time as a consultant looking at a lot of React code bases, and They just never come out great. They just come out just okay after a couple years. And I could, like, start to identify, like, why? I didn't know what the solution was or a better model. And Solid to me, like, was the answer.

Dax: 32:55

It was, like, okay. The things I identified don't even exist in the Solid world. Yeah. So I found that I've been able to focus on really important things a lot more now, like, like, little interactivity details and You know, just your average, person building stuff. I can see the result of their work is actually better.

Dax: 33:24

It's, like, noticeably better, like, the thing that they built. Yeah. So I think it is it is good, and it's it's effective. And I've seen it enough times where I can, like, make that claim, and I feel confident in it. It just comes down to, like, How sensitive are you to, again, just the egos?

Dax: 33:44

We're gonna book the bucket everything Less mature. Like I said, it's like It's a smaller ecosystem. It's not even it's so much better now than it was a couple years ago, and I, like, can't even imagine. I, like, don't feel like it even needs to get that much better, but everyone has, like, a different Yeah. Different bar.

Adam: 33:58

Okay. So I didn't make a decision on this podcast. That'll happen with my team. But I do feel more informed, and that's nice. I really don't like looking at Svelte files.

Adam: 34:09

I don't know why. But we we have enough of it now. Like, I mean, we have, like there's hundreds of lines of Svelte in our code base at this point. It does feel like the easy path is to just keep doing what we're doing even though I don't like it. Like, I don't like looking in or working in these Svelte files.

Dax: 34:26

This is especially funny because, At least this is my impression. My impression of, like, this felt angle is actually a lot about aesthetics. Like, they really it. Care about the way something looks, and they will, like, always introduce compiler functionality to, like, improve

Adam: 34:46

the aesthetics.

Dax: 34:47

Yeah. But, again, that's, like, their perspective of what the aesthetics are. So if you're someone that that's

Adam: 34:52

not familiar with

Dax: 34:52

that or all coming into that, you're just like, ew. But then They're just like, no. Like, what are you talking that's, like, the thing that they care about,

Adam: 34:59

you know. I don't I'm not trying to say it's objectively hideous. It's just from my perspective, and maybe it's just my experiences coming from mostly doing React development and mostly working in JSX files. It just is so unfamiliar that it's, like, repulsive to me. Yeah.

Adam: 35:15

And it's to offend anybody involved with Svelte. Like, I'm sure it's excellent. I just I can't get over the fact that it feels so unfamiliar, and I just wanna be back home in something I know.

Dax: 35:26

Yeah. This stuff stuff doesn't click sometimes. That's what I liked about Solid. Like, I like JSX. I know I know some people don't, but I, like, genuinely like it.

Dax: 35:33

I think that was one of the best things that came out of React. I use it outside of React. Like, I use it on the back end, Like, without React even?

Adam: 35:39

Say that again. You use JSX on the back end? How? Like, what do you do with it?

Dax: 35:44

There's there's libraries that'll just it. Compile.

Adam: 35:46

Like, for emails?

Dax: 35:48

Well, yes. We use it for emails. JSX email, we do use that. But sometimes I just have, like, a page I need to put together that's pretty simple. And I don't wanna, like, create a whole front end project for it.

Dax: 36:00

So I'll just spit out some JSX from a Lambda,

Adam: 36:03

and that gets converted to HTML?

Dax: 36:06

Yeah. And there's, like, non React renderers of JSX. Just do, like, a single click on it and spit out HTML. I've used it for PDFs. Like, I've used it for like, I like JSX.

Dax: 36:16

I think it's I think it makes sense.

Adam: 36:17

Interesting. I've never heard of any of that. I've heard of using React to make terminal apps. I've done that, I think.

Dax: 36:25

I've done that too. And

Adam: 36:26

Yeah. I'm not dirties out. I'm not so sold on it.

Dax: 36:30

You know what it is? We just run into, like, the dumbest errors. Like, we have and this is just more of a node ecosystem, their NPM ecosystem thing. Yeah. We our CLI depends on React for SSD, the current CLI.

Dax: 36:42

And of course, like some package manager somewhere it. Gets confused at the fact that the CLI needs React, but then their app also needs React, and it, like, fucks up the versions. And then it's just, like it's It's, like, relatively common because a lot of people use React, so it's just, like, unnecessary complexity. But you know what? Like, making a terminal that.

Dax: 37:03

That, like, is interactive and, like, clears out the bottom footer of it is, like, pretty hard.

Adam: 37:08

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I've made a few and not had great experiences, with everything I've used. But ink was one of them that didn't solve a lot of my problems.

Dax: 37:18

Before we move off of it, so you also looked into, like, the alpine World. Uh-huh. And you said they do have, like, a component library that has, like, more than the bare bones?

Adam: 37:29

It's sort of, yeah, it's sort of like Tailwind UI. It's like you buy a license one time, and you can, like, copy paste these components and then rework them how you want to. But they're very, like, accessibility focused. It's sort of similar mantra to, like I think they're headless too to to Radix and all these other libraries. The thing with Alpine, I even I I literally went to, you know, on Twitter mobile.

Adam: 37:53

Do you use Twitter mobile, the app?

Dax: 37:54

Like, The web the web app or, like, the native app?

Adam: 37:57

No. Like like, the native app. Sorry.

Dax: 37:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 37:59

I just spent way too long asking that question for what I'm about to ask you. It's like you could

Dax: 38:05

guess. So you know how much I'm on Twitter. Like, do you think I'm don't use

Adam: 38:08

the app? I don't know. Maybe you're, like, a non native app person, one of those people that's like, I only use the web. No. I just did the voice again.

Adam: 38:16

I know. It's the same person. Different, though. It's the same. I'm the same person.

Adam: 38:22

Oh, okay. Oh my god. No. The the in the native app on iPhone, you can, like, go to somebody's profile and just search their tweets really easy. You don't have to, from whatever.

Adam: 38:32

That that's why I said it was too much time spent because, like, it could've just said I'd use Twitter search.

Dax: 38:36

Spending a lot of time, like, explaining that. Yeah. It's just Okay.

Adam: 38:40

So I searched through Ryan Carniato's tweets for all the times he mentioned Alpine. So I just wanna know, what does Ryan say? I just trust his opinion on any front end thing. And he there's a history of him talking about Alpine very favorably even though, like, if you look at his benchmarks, it tests horribly from the standpoint of, like, manipulating the DOM really fast, which I don't really care that much for our use case. It.

Adam: 39:05

But he speaks favorably in the sense that if you're trying to just modify existing DOM nodes, pages that are rendered, like, on the server he talks about. It's used a lot in, like, the Elixir or the Rails communities or whatever, that it it's better than solid for that use case. Yeah. So I I kind of thought, like, that was my philosophy, is that we're trying to take an existing page and just augment it. We're progressively enhancing it, If you will, there's people who get really into that stuff.

Dax: 39:33

Well, it it's just funny because I think that stuff makes way more sense when your back end is not in JavaScript it. Because it lets you avoid writing JavaScript. That's a good point. Already writing JavaScript. So then you give up the benefit of, like, being able to, like, Mix in these frameworks?

Adam: 39:48

That's a great point. Okay. So that's maybe the deciding factor here is we already have it's an Astro back end. It's already JavaScript. Why not take advantage of the fact that it can now render all these front end library components on the back end?

Dax: 40:03

Yeah.

Adam: 40:03

And then so it looks the same, I guess. Like, the HTML coming down for our select elements, it's gonna fully be rendered in the HTML, it's just it becomes interactive after the hydration step, I guess. Yeah. And how much time like, how much are we killing? It.

Adam: 40:20

I know these things don't matter. I'm not even gonna say it.

Dax: 40:22

Just like one time interactivity or whatever?

Adam: 40:24

All those? Yeah. Well, they do matter. I mean, core core vitals matter. And, like, the field data that we see on our site.

Adam: 40:29

There's a lot of users that we can pull that data from and look at using Chrome tools. Like

Dax: 40:34

Yeah.

Adam: 40:35

What is time to interactive? Is it gonna kill our time to interactive if we introduce React?

Dax: 40:39

Yeah. I mean, yes. More than Wait. It is now. I think the other weird thing is and I have to think about this more, but Astro is, like, a neutral server, framework.

Dax: 40:54

Right? It doesn't particularly, like, adopt specific patterns in the frameworks it supports. So, like, Astro is not gonna support RSC. It. See, like, they have their different way of doing SSR, and they're gonna they're gonna stick with that.

Adam: 41:06

I would think. Yeah.

Dax: 41:08

And similarly, I am but, like, you could imagine how if you use React with RSC, like, all those metrics are probably better potentially. Like, technically, like, I don't know if they matter, but it will probably be better because they're optimized for it. For those things. And you can maybe imagine using Solid with Solid start would actually give you, like, technically better performance. Yeah.

Dax: 41:26

Yeah. So, yeah, I do wonder what that gap with Astro like, Astro plus Solid, how's that compared to just using Solidstar and Astro plus React? How's that compare? Yeah. Yeah.

Dax: 41:36

I mean, like, you have a big consumer facing app with, like, millions of people using it. So I guess these things do end up mattering.

Adam: 41:43

They kinda matter. Yeah. So we should just stick with Svelte? Is that your official recommendation?

Dax: 41:49

I can

Adam: 41:49

say that.

Dax: 41:50

I'm just trying to get somewhere. I I think if you Both Svelte and SOD produce small smaller, like, bundle sizes. And I think the the TTi will be faster as well. Yeah.

Adam: 42:04

It all came back to bundle sizes. It really did, didn't it?

Dax: 42:06

Yeah. I think maybe you should just, like, put what's great about Solid is you can try all of these things together and then just just look at it. It's not like there's work What's great about Astro,

Adam: 42:14

you mean? Sorry. Yeah.

Dax: 42:15

What's great about Astro is Yeah. You you have to, like, boot trap a whole solid project to try a bootstrap. Like, if you guys made the same project down with Uh-huh. With the underlying library that you like and just

Adam: 42:25

Oh, we could just see what the yeah. Actually, see what the timed interactive is on a page

Dax: 42:29

Understand. Environment or something. For it. Like, I think the reality might be that they're all, like, effectively the And if that's the case, then you at least know it's not a big deal.

Adam: 42:37

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I have loved Astro. Like, as you started describing Solid Start and SvelteKit or whatever you were saying, or Next.

Adam: 42:45

Js. I started thinking like, oh, man. Did we screw up with, like, if we were if we ended up leaning hard into React, for instance, or Solid, should we have just used their meta framework? But I've loved that we actually do have a React component live on the site today that was a carryover from it used to be a React. The whole Satmis site used to be a React app, And we didn't wanna redo this very complicated shot chart component, so we just carried it over, and it's plugged into our Astro site.

Adam: 43:11

It's great. So we have salt components. We have this one React component. And, yeah, to your point, I could experiment. We could try it in Solid and see how it feels, like, from an authoring standpoint, from a bundle size standpoint, all that.

Adam: 43:23

So that's pretty great. Ashos, I'm a big fan.

Dax: 43:26

Yeah. Cool.

Adam: 43:27

Okay. I guess I have more thoughts and information in my head now to go into, the call with

Dax: 43:35

my team and figure out what we're gonna do. Do I get a consulting fee?

Adam: 43:38

It. Yeah. Sure. I'll take you out to lunch, when I'm in Miami.

Dax: 43:43

Take you out? Okay. Just give me, give me whatever the paid version of your product is for people. Oh, there

Adam: 43:51

you go. Yeah. You can get yeah. I'll get you a coupon code. There you go.

Adam: 43:54

Big sports fan,

Dax: 43:58

I've I've used it, like, 3 times maybe. Oh, that's awesome. Only because, Only because you mentioned it. You had

Adam: 44:04

to prove.

Dax: 44:04

Yeah. It's funny how much I see it now that I know you. It's like one of those things where once you hear about it Oh, yeah. Hear about something, you just see it everywhere. Yeah.

Dax: 44:12

It's all over

Adam: 44:13

the the Twitters. It's, it's a lot of a lot of Twitter activity. Okay. We can talk about something else now. I dominated the first 45 minutes of this conversation.

Adam: 44:23

It's your turn. I'm just gonna sit here and drink my water. No. I'm just kidding.

Dax: 44:27

Do I have anything? I don't know if I have anything. You have

Adam: 44:29

to have. You always have thoughts. You've never not had thoughts. What? What?

Adam: 44:33

What? What? What?

Dax: 44:33

I thought there's something oh,

Adam: 44:34

I want to talk about the, you guys just did a stream and a big blog post about leaving CDK. Have we talked about that?

Dax: 44:39

No. I'm not. I think

Adam: 44:40

we're talking about on the podcast.

Dax: 44:41

Not. Yeah. Can I

Adam: 44:43

just say it first before you go into this, I feel kinda like kid at the dinner table, mommy and daddy fighting, because I know so many people on the CDK side? And, like, really, the beginning of my AWS roots kinda come from that CDK community. So it's it. It's a little spicy for me. I hate conflict.

Adam: 45:01

It does.

Dax: 45:02

This is so funny because, In the stream, Jay was, like because Jay wrote most of the post. He was, like, the first two drafts of this were too angry, and then, like, the 3rd draft was not. And I genuinely don't think it was a controversial or a spicy thing. We just listed

Adam: 45:20

out post, by the way.

Dax: 45:21

I didn't think that. We just listed out all these things that you might run into when you're using CDK, and we described what the root problem of those things are. The spiciest thing maybe were, like, some of, like, the section titles. Like, I I don't know. Yeah.

Dax: 45:36

There were

Adam: 45:37

a couple lines, I think, that were kind of, like, Yeah. This is a sign of terrible design or something. Yeah.

Dax: 45:42

Did we go that far?

Adam: 45:44

Not terrible. Maybe I exaggerated.

Dax: 45:46

But I I think maybe, like, some people we, like, had some subtitles that were, like, this is not IAC. This is an IAC hack or whatever. And people are, like, what? But to be honest, I thought okay. 1, I was surprised that how much it spread.

Dax: 46:00

Like, it was surprising to see it. Other people posting, like, reposting their not not like retweeting it. Like, they would just separately post it. Like, we would see it on LinkedIn and a few other places. And most of the reaction, like, I would say, like, almost all of it minus, like, maybe 1 thread was or maybe 2 threads were, like, it.

Dax: 46:21

Really positive because they were like Yeah. Oh, yeah. People that felt the same way too, though. So, like, I recognize that, or I thought I was being dumb, but it's good to know that, you know, it's, like, a a thing. And there's there's hasn't been a compilation of all of these weird things.

Dax: 46:33

And even going to the article yesterday on stream, I was realizing There's actually other stuff that we didn't even include in there.

Adam: 46:39

Like the open source. Sorry. I could just add, like, maybe their stance on outside contributions and

Dax: 46:46

Well, I talked about that on the stream a lot. Oh, you talked about

Adam: 46:48

the stream. I didn't see the stream. I just read the blog post.

Dax: 46:50

Yeah. We talked about it a lot yesterday.

Adam: 46:51

About that too much. Yeah.

Dax: 46:52

No. No. Yeah. We we we're just really looking at just the implementation and, like, what it feels like to use it. And this has nothing to do with, like, using it through SSD.

Dax: 47:01

Like, these are just Things that come up if you're using CDK, whether you're using it directly or with SSC. They just happen and you have to, like, know that they happen. So, Yeah. Most of the reaction was really positive. The only reason we even put this together is because we're going in a different direction.

Dax: 47:21

It. You've seen we've seen this a 1000000 times with every other open source framework. When there is a big shift, there's a lot of concern that it's like a flippant, Like, decision? Yeah. And it definitely seems that way, right?

Dax: 47:35

Because if you're just a user of a product or user of a framework, You're, like, not in the weeds on, like, the problems and the future and the ceilings and all of that. So when there's a big change, to you as a user, it feels, like, really random. And we've seen this, like, with Next and, like, just all their struggles getting people on board. So we only wrote that to make it clear that, Hey. We've, like, thought about this for a long time, and we've tried Yeah.

Dax: 48:00

Every single solution for these things, and we're only doing this because, we're out of ideas.

Adam: 48:06

Yeah. You're not just chasing, like, a shiny thing that would be fun

Dax: 48:10

to do or yeah. It's like there's

Adam: 48:11

a lot of deliberation going into that decision.

Dax: 48:14

Yeah. And the thing that I posted in my tweet was we personally don't have that many actual problems with this stuff because we know how to deal with all these problems and avoid them. So we're not, like, Like, yeah. We want them to be fixed, but we're, like, experts at this point, so we know how to work around them. It's really the people that are trying it for the first time or, like You know, I think the thing with the CDK community is, a lot of people in it, like, live and breathe it, and, like, that's, like, the thing they're focused on.

Dax: 48:45

But if you want it to get mass adoption, it needs to be used by people that, like, don't think about it that much. And if you don't think about it that much, Randomly doing a deploy one day and having that circular stack problem is just insanely frustrating. So that's kind of who we're focused on. Like, We want more people adopt this stuff. It can only happen if they're not being thrown into these weird details entirely randomly.

Adam: 49:09

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's what I took away from, and I didn't you you talked a lot about, like, the users of SSD and the things that they have to deal with because of CDK, and, like, there's no at this point, there's no workarounds for those things.

Dax: 49:22

Yeah. And then the other dimension that also is a little bit challenging to understand as, again, just like as a user of these things, I think people dream of this scenario where you, like, learn a framework and it really doesn't change, it. And there's, like it's, like, very stable. Right? You don't have to, like, keep up with with the changes, and we all want that.

Dax: 49:43

Like, we all kind of vaguely want that because it's annoying when we have to, like, rework That has nothing to do with our main thing we're working on. Yeah. But that scenario is kind of a fantasy because it. If a framework is not evolving, it's effectively dying. You know, we'll hit a ceiling with what we have now.

Dax: 50:03

And I think we're like kind of getting close to it. So we basically, we'll never grow after a certain point if we just stick with what we're doing now. Over time, Better options come out that do some of the things that we wanna do. But, like, if we choose chose not to, like, we'll lose some of those people. You see how, like, this just won't it.

Dax: 50:21

Around forever. Like, you always keep hitting these ceilings, and when you do, you do have to, like, try to jump to the next thing. Otherwise, The alternative is just becomes a dying framework. Right? And we've seen that with stuff that's kinda gone away.

Dax: 50:34

We've rarely ever seen something that just hasn't changed at all and been around forever. So it's annoying. You don't have to jump on the cutting edge, like, the week it comes out. You can wait literally years before you do, and that's Self control. It's annoying because you see all the exciting, shiny new stuff.

Dax: 50:51

Yeah. But you can choose to wait, and a lot of people do that. Like, you're in control of doing that. Projects generally don't, like, destroy the old thing when they move to the new thing. And, you know, people have pointed that out with React.

Dax: 51:04

But Yeah. So, again, it's it's a little hard to understand that when you're not working on on these things.

Adam: 51:10

You talking about a tweet of yours took me to your Twitter because I I need you to explain a tweet for me.

Dax: 51:16

Yeah.

Adam: 51:18

You you sometimes do, like, a subtweet that is so cryptic and so hard for my brain to understand that. I'm just gonna start bringing them to you for you to directly explain it to me. You don't have to tell me who it's a subtweet or, like, what happened that made you think of this. But I don't even understand the the, like, insult that you're throwing out there at somebody. I can't even comprehend it.

Adam: 51:37

So I'm gonna read the 2 tweets. The first one, you're kinda setting the stage that you're gonna create this thread of, like, all these different thoughts. I still can't believe how much people fall for professional bullshitting in our space. I know engineers aren't known for their soft skills, but, damn, this stuff is super effective. Think I might add examples to this right over time.

Adam: 51:55

Example 1, and this is the one I just don't understand, and I need you to to unwrap it for me. A simple thing to look for is what self perceived flattering thing they're avoiding saying. People working on start ups are extremely competitive, no different than the sports team. Some people have no problem acknowledging this. Watch out for the people who refuse to.

Adam: 52:12

Maybe it's not as complicated as I thought it was. It

Dax: 52:15

it it's funny because Cody posted a a chat gbt explanation of it, and it was a fantastic explanation.

Adam: 52:20

Oh, really? It. Yeah. That's such a good idea. I don't even have to ask you.

Adam: 52:23

I can just chat GBT

Dax: 52:24

it. Okay.

Adam: 52:25

So Oh, there it is. So I wasn't the only one that had the problem. So y'all don't understand. It. Oh, wow.

Adam: 52:33

Oh, that's so good. It's that first sentence. That's what I struggled with. Yeah.

Dax: 52:36

What I messed up was the second part of the tweet was an example of the first thing. It wasn't like the first thing again. So Yeah. Right. Right.

Dax: 52:44

Going back to why I post this original thing, I'm just getting increasingly tired of this, like, expectation of corporate speak, and we pretend, like, for some reason, we all want that. So, So, like, whenever some controversy happens, you expect the CEO to say all this, like, weird corporate approved stuff. When they don't, you see a bunch of reaction of people saying, oh, this is why I see this.

Adam: 53:09

He didn't

Dax: 53:10

Yeah. Like, send that's why they it. People, for some reason, and it's completely arbitrary, are, like, this is this type of talking we expect. Yeah. And when it's not that, we're gonna be, like, Oh, yeah.

Dax: 53:21

You should run it by your PR team or whatever. But the the thing we expect, nobody actually likes. Like, nobody actually likes that type of talk.

Adam: 53:29

Nobody actually likes LinkedIn. I mean, really.

Dax: 53:31

Exactly.

Adam: 53:31

Everyone's just pretending. It's like an entire social network where everyone's just pretending to like what they're doing on there because they wanna make enough money to support their family or whatever.

Dax: 53:40

Yes. Exactly. And that's actually the perfect example of this the example I gave, which is it. People avoid saying certain things because it's perceived as, like they self perceive it as unflattering. Right?

Dax: 53:53

It. If someone is like, I love money. Like, I fucking love money. I want so much money. Time.

Dax: 53:59

Yeah. So many people have trouble saying that Even when it's true.

Adam: 54:02

It's a good point. No. I've never heard anyone else say it. Like, when you say it the first time I heard it, I think it was kind of like,

Dax: 54:08

you're not supposed that. That's

Adam: 54:10

Yeah. But the

Dax: 54:11

thing is Now

Adam: 54:12

I'm used to it. But It

Dax: 54:13

it's largely true for a lot of people. A lot of people do love it. They don't think about it. So when they're avoiding saying it, it's kinda like this weird lie of it's all self inflicted though because I don't it. Really, I know I love money.

Dax: 54:25

If I see that somebody else loves money, I'm not, like, judging them because I know I'm the same way. Right. So it's all self inflicted. So There's certain, like, random things that are technically unflattering that we don't wanna admit. The sports team thing I compared it to is, like, it.

Dax: 54:41

Imagine a sports team that, like, is in the finals, and they're like, we just want everyone to, like, you

Adam: 54:47

know, win. Yeah. It's right. Like, it's what what people do this, like, talking about how we're not competing with other people. What is the phrase people use?

Adam: 54:57

There's a phrase.

Dax: 54:59

Zero sum?

Adam: 55:00

Yeah. It's not a zero sum game. Like, it's that that's thrown around all the time. Like, we can all succeed or we can all, like, a

Dax: 55:07

And, like, in Net, that's true. Like, in Net, humanity is not a zero sum game. Like, we grow But start ups

Adam: 55:13

in general, kind of are.

Dax: 55:15

Yeah. Yeah. In the micro, there's conflicting ideas. There's conflicting visions of the future and, like, sometimes only one of those can be true. It.

Dax: 55:23

And everyone that's worked at a company, like, really think back. How much time have you spent shit talking your competitors? And, like, Like, we're all competitive. Like, we wanna crush our opponents, and it's okay to say that because that's just how the world works. My competitors probably wanna crush me.

Dax: 55:40

I wanna crush them. Nothing wrong with this. There's totally nothing wrong with admitting that we're competitive. Like, a sports team has no problem admitting this. Yeah.

Dax: 55:47

But for some reason, in business, it's like, We're we're just trying to make things better for everyone. You know, it's just like yeah. But also this other thing.

Adam: 55:56

Is it kind of like the the Netflix way they treat, like, employees, their approach to, like I feel like they kinda have the same spirit of, like,

Dax: 56:15

stuff. Right? Like, how they too much, but I have heard that they run I think the sports thing is

Adam: 56:19

Yeah. It's very much, like, the sports team and

Dax: 56:21

I talk

Adam: 56:21

about it a lot.

Dax: 56:22

With our company as well. Yeah.

Adam: 56:23

Because, like, a sports team will just cut a guy. Like, you're out of the team, and that's just business. And it's understood.

Dax: 56:29

Yeah. And but simultaneously, like, there's nothing it. More intense than the bond of a team when they work together, the sports team when they're, like, you know, on the court or whatever working together. So it's like you can have So

Adam: 56:40

you're saying people at Netflix probably have that like, they get that lift because of that straightforward relationship with their employer that their team probably feels more of a bond because of it. Like, they've all gone through hard things together in that sense.

Dax: 56:57

I think intensity Creates, like, a lot of negative feelings, but also, like, the most positive feelings you can have. And I think there's a weird, like, neutral thing of It's all fake. It's like it's like a fake thing that, 1, isn't actually good, and, 2, like, it's fake. So Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 57:17

Is there a way to get rid of it? Like, is there a way for society to evolve out of all of that? Like, will LinkedIn cease to exist someday because people got tired of all the inauthenticity.

Dax: 57:28

Yeah. I think it's an arms race, and that's why I kind of wrote that thread, because the things I point out in there it. Are somewhat subtle. Right? And they're like little manipulations, little like tricks, that come up a lot.

Dax: 57:43

And I don't blame people for it. Like, falling for it. Like, they're pretty effective. And I think people are getting better and better and better at utilizing those. The people that, like, kinda opt into that stuff.

Dax: 57:54

So, yeah, Yeah. I'm gonna say I'm just gonna write this and collect this here, and I'm hoping it has some amount of impact on people so they can kind of recognize this when it happens. Like, to me, it's And this stuff is so obvious, but I see people falling for it all the time.

Adam: 58:06

Yeah. I hadn't even noticed that you'd written more of them. And now I kinda wanna read them all, but I'm probably not gonna understand any of them. So maybe I'll use GPT. I'll just I'll create a DAX GPT.

Dax: 58:17

Oh, you know, this the word reasonable comes up in a lot of these because that's, like, another trick. It. People are trained to act surface level, like, extremely reasonable no matter the situation because it makes the other person always look like

Adam: 58:33

unreasonable.

Dax: 58:33

They're, like, exaggerating or in the wrong. A lot of, like, training around how you do how you, like, diffuse angry customers and stuff is all around, it. Like, this this angle and just seems everywhere. Like, whenever there's any kind of conflict, like, the more reasonable person always kinda seems right. And, like, they're able to, like, shift the conversation and avoid talking about certain things that they're actually in the wrong for.

Adam: 58:56

I totally do this. I am such a jerk. I do it with people close to me. I do. I think I I've even had the thought in my brain, like, I'm just being so reasonable here.

Adam: 59:07

There's nothing they can do about it. Yeah. It's very effective. It really is. It's very effective.

Adam: 59:12

Oh, man. I didn't even realize. It's such a dark thing to, like, realize that I'm doing those things, and I'm not even thinking about it.

Dax: 59:19

I mean, why do you think I know how to make this list? It's like, we all do this.

Adam: 59:23

We all do it. Yeah. You're just actually acknowledging it and thinking about it.

Dax: 59:27

Which in itself is a manipulation. You know? You're a psychopath.

Adam: 59:32

You're the most psychopath of all of us. You do it, and you know you're doing it.

Dax: 59:36

Okay. So what triggered this thought for me was, we wrote that CDK article, and we're talking about how we're moving Pulumi. We had a few people ask us, like, oh, what's gonna happen if Pulumi changes their license like the way Terraform did? Like like, what is it. Like, are you like, you know, people are wondering about that and kind of, like, not directly, but it's a situation where you can look at that and you can look at the situation as, Oh, they think we did something wrong, and they think we didn't consider this thing.

Dax: 01:00:04

So it's weird. My initial instinct was to, like, do this weird it. Corporate thing where I, like, kind of massage it and avoid it. But I was like, that's that's so that's really not me. I generally don't do stuff like that.

Dax: 01:00:15

And I was like, it's crazy that this is seeping into my my head as well. And I replied to them being, like, oh, yeah. If they changed this stuff, we're a 100% screwed. Like, there's no it. There's no, like, there's no way to, like, spin this.

Dax: 01:00:29

Like, this I just gave a very direct answer. And the person replied, oh, thank you. Like, I love how direct you were about this. But it's it's what people want. Right?

Adam: 01:00:37

Yeah. At the end of the day, it's like we all know we don't prefer or we don't desire this fakeness that we're all putting up. And so when we see like, when I see the things you say on Twitter, it is very refreshing. It's refreshing to see, like, honesty. Is authenticity the word?

Adam: 01:00:55

Have I used that too many times in this episode? Can I say it again?

Dax: 01:00:58

Yeah. I and to me, I think it feels more like a short term, long term thing. I think I tend to look at everything in that way. I think you're afraid of, like so here's a very classy example. Right?

Dax: 01:01:09

Someone will ask, especially if you're a startup, they'll ask, it. Hey, you guys are a startup. How do we know your product is gonna be around in a couple years? Like, is this all sustainable or whatever? And, of course, like, you get Some, like, corporate generic answer of, like, you know, we're working to do things in in a way and, like because what they're afraid of is it.

Dax: 01:01:29

In that moment, someone's gonna hear that and choose not to try your product. They're afraid of that short term problem. Yeah. In those situations, what I say is, yeah, we're a startup. We don't even know if we deserve to exist, And we might be gone a year from now.

Dax: 01:01:41

It's, like, a 100% true, because that short term thing of some whether someone's gonna try our product or not, like, They're gonna it doesn't matter in the end. Like, it didn't it probably is good, like, you'll conquer that, but that fear of that immediate thing of feeling, like, I don't want anyone to think of anything it. Is bad. In the long term, we establish a lot of good credibility and people trust us because we we aren't doing these other things. So

Adam: 01:02:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard for me. I am, like, from a social relational standpoint, I'm very, like, conflict avoidance, whatever that personality trait is.

Adam: 01:02:16

I just I really am always thinking about the very near term when it comes to social interactions. So it's very hard for me not to just do the thing that makes everybody feel good for a bit, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe they're not feeling good about it, but I feel good that they don't feel bad. Yeah. So I do a lot of this.

Dax: 01:02:35

I mean, it's it's like I said, I was doing it literally yesterday. I felt that wasn't my instinct to go and do that. So it's it's very hard not to have that be your default. Yeah. Because it's how everyone interacts.

Dax: 01:02:49

And it's, like, so fake sometimes.

Adam: 01:02:52

I I do. If I ever think about this stuff, I'm I'm sure I've said it on this podcast, that I start spiraling into this, like, it all needs to fall and just crumble. It's society is built on a web of lies. It's all terrible. Yeah.

Adam: 01:03:05

It's And it's always LinkedIn for me. I was just imagining what people say

Dax: 01:03:08

on LinkedIn. It's a great, example. Yeah. I think someone I forgot who it was. Maybe it was Warren.

Dax: 01:03:14

He replied with, like, it. He basically replied with a message that was doing the opposite of everything I said in that thread, and the reactions were like, get this on LinkedIn. It's yeah. It's it. It's the vibe there.

Adam: 01:03:26

That's some clever I just found it. It's clever.

Dax: 01:03:31

It's it's like chat gbt. It's like that's what it is. It. Chat gbt is, in essence, when you ask it anything about some non hard part of the world, like something softer and nuanced, like, yeah, It replies in in the zigzag style. We gotta stop, like, valuing that.

Adam: 01:03:50

Yeah. I I no longer value it. I'll forget I'll forget, like, tomorrow. Do you forget a lot of stuff? How's your memory doing?

Adam: 01:03:57

You're still early thirties.

Dax: 01:03:58

I don't see myself as someone with A great memory for most things, but I have, like, an inhuman memory for, like, random useless shit, which I think is maybe maybe, Like, very common.

Adam: 01:04:09

Is that part of our job? Is it or is it just everybody?

Dax: 01:04:13

No. I have, like, stupid in human I've talked about this before. I have, like, this it. Crazy gift for remembering every movie, every actor, like, what they were in, like, who they acted with, their names.

Adam: 01:04:23

My little brother's that way.

Dax: 01:04:25

Yeah. Yeah. It's just like I can recall just, like, such specific stuff, but, you know, I forget more important things all the time.

Adam: 01:04:33

Yeah. I I feel like I've probably said the this is, like, so meta right now

Dax: 01:04:39

because We can't remember that we said this already?

Adam: 01:04:41

Yeah. I'm about to say something that I'm just sure I've said on this and we've talked about, and you've probably given me some comforting message. But, like, Casey is really concerned about my memory. Like, to the point that she wants like, she's looking up, like, how early can you develop dementia or whatever. There's just, like, so many things in our life that she has to tell me 3 and 4 and 5 times in, in, like, you know, a 5, 6 week span.

Adam: 01:05:04

And I don't know if it's because I'm just not storing it. What I tell her, I genuinely believe I hear something. I know it's something that she's got covered, and I just don't store it. Like, it just bounces off my head, And I nod and I smile. But, like, I'm using that spousal memory.

Adam: 01:05:21

Like, she is half of my brain. And if it's a thing that's not a thing I need to consider, like, day to day, I'm just not gonna store it. I feel like she stores everything.

Dax: 01:05:31

Yeah.

Adam: 01:05:31

And I am very selective with what stays in my brain, and I it. I blame it on work. I just say, like, I have this whole other world. I have to think about things and remember things and use them day to day and be creative and do this stuff. And I feel like there's not room in my brain for all of it.

Adam: 01:05:45

It's that meme, the, like, pushing the thing in the head. Yeah. There's stuff in there that I just can't do away with or I'll be ineffective, I think.

Dax: 01:05:53

Or I could just be developing

Adam: 01:05:54

a DaVinci. I don't I don't know. I honestly don't know.

Dax: 01:05:56

My explanation for this is I think it's like a classic husband wife thing. Like, you see this it. Everything you described, exact same way with me and Liz. And we just see stuff on, like, Instagram all the time where people make jokes about this exact dynamic. I can't remember anything, and Liz always remembers stuff that she has no business remembering because it's, like, my my thing.

Dax: 01:06:16

Yeah. So I I feel like there's just some something there. There's, like, some man, woman thing.

Adam: 01:06:24

Okay. So that's, like, a marital like, just a dynamic maybe between.

Dax: 01:06:27

And I wonder for people that are, like, like, 2 men that are married, are they just, like, just lost all the time? Because I I super rely on on Lisa, like, remember all this stuff. And then Yeah. Yeah. Then 2 women that are together, like, are they just, like are they just so, like, on it?

Dax: 01:06:42

Yeah.

Adam: 01:06:42

Yeah. Is it more of a role thing or more of, like, a physical genetic thing.

Dax: 01:06:46

To me, it feels like it feels so core in me. It doesn't feel like a role thing.

Adam: 01:06:50

It feels like That's what I like, she gets upset sometimes over things that I should have remembered. She feels like it was an important conversation. And I feel like there's literally nothing I can do. I don't know. Like, I can't do more push ups and suddenly just remember those things.

Adam: 01:07:02

They are not stored in my brain, and there's some reason. It's not that I don't value what she said. Like, lots of things she tells me I do remember. I need to do this at this time today because it's important or, you know, like, it's not like I'm completely incapable of hearing and retaining something she says. Anyway, Yeah.

Adam: 01:07:20

There there's another thing that that just reminded me of that I feel like men are, generally in a marital relationship bad at, and that's finding things. Are you terrible at finding things? Oh, that this is just a this

Dax: 01:07:30

is a subcategory of this. This is kinda exactly what I'm talking about. Like, I'll have something very specific to me, it. Like, some, like, document or something that I got in the mail. I can't remember where I put it, and Liz will always be like, oh, yeah.

Dax: 01:07:42

I saw it over here. I'm like, what the how do you remember this?

Adam: 01:07:46

Or it'll be like it's not that I needed to remember where it was, but she'll tell me where it is. She'll say, like, oh, it's on the counter in the pantry, whatever. And you

Dax: 01:07:53

gotta look for it.

Adam: 01:07:54

And I can go look for it, and I'll be like, it's not there. I'm gonna tell you. And she'll walk right in and grab it. And it's she says I'm looking instead of searching. Like Yeah.

Adam: 01:08:02

Like, I don't move stuff around. I just kinda, like, walk in the room, stare at the

Dax: 01:08:06

wall, and then I think exact same thing. Again, there's, like, a 1,000,000 TikToks and stuff about this dynamic.

Adam: 01:08:11

She me the TikTok channel.

Dax: 01:08:13

Where, like, like, the milk materializes out of the refrigerator. You don't see it, and then when she goes to grab it, it just, like, appears. Because we like what it feels like. I'm convinced we're just thinking about other stuff when we think we're looking.

Adam: 01:08:24

Is that what we're doing when they're talking to us too? Oh, no.

Dax: 01:08:26

Not me.

Adam: 01:08:27

Is so

Dax: 01:08:27

why I don't retain it.

Adam: 01:08:28

It's not me either. Are you just saying that, though? Is that fake?

Dax: 01:08:31

No. It's not fake. I'm a good listener.

Adam: 01:08:32

Okay. Yeah. I'm a good listener.

Dax: 01:08:34

Do our do our wives listen to our podcast? Because now Sometimes. They'll

Adam: 01:08:38

be extra fodder sometimes. Oh, no.

Dax: 01:08:40

You know what I think about? Do you you know when you're driving, You know in the moment, you must be paying attention to stuff because you're not, like, crashing into cars and stuff. But then if you, like, try to rewind 2 minutes ago, like, while you're driving, like, okay. What do I have any memories of 2 minutes ago? You have zero memories of 2 minutes ago.

Adam: 01:08:57

No. There's some autopilot going on for sure

Dax: 01:08:59

when you're driving. Yeah. I think there's something like that going on with Just other parts of her life.

Adam: 01:09:04

Okay. I feel a little better knowing that it's universal. I knew the the finding things was universal. I've seen the TikToks. But the memory thing, I don't know.

Dax: 01:09:11

I I

Adam: 01:09:11

was getting a little concerned for my health.

Dax: 01:09:13

Yeah. I had something else I was just thinking about. Nope. Lost it because, you know,

Adam: 01:09:20

that memory. Yep. That's funny. I think we're good here. I think we've we've recorded for long enough.

Adam: 01:09:28

Gotta eat. I haven't eaten today.

Dax: 01:09:30

Me neither.

Adam: 01:09:30

Another podcast that we were recording, and we're just underfed.

Dax: 01:09:34

I had 5 gummy bears.

Adam: 01:09:35

You've had 5 gummy bears today?

Dax: 01:09:37

That's all you ate? That was my that's what I've eaten so far. They're the they're the the the creatine ones, but

Adam: 01:09:43

oh, creature. I was, like, why would you only eat 5? Like, I've never, like, sat down with a a breed like that and been, like, I'm just gonna eat 5 of them because I have self restraint.

Dax: 01:09:51

Imagine being someone that could do that.

Adam: 01:09:53

That'd be amazing. I feel like, yeah, people who meditate. I bet Jay could do it. People who are, like, in tune with their inner self or something. I I just traveled yesterday, back from a work trip, and all I ate yesterday came from an airport.

Dax: 01:10:08

I I

Adam: 01:10:08

was in 2 airports who had a connection, and the only thing that went in my body yesterday was from an airport. So it was terrible. I felt awful. Like, hard I hardly could sleep last night from how gross I felt.

Dax: 01:10:19

Traveling is so hard. Imagine people traveling on, like, boats and carriages and stuff. What the hell were they doing? Oh, man.

Adam: 01:10:24

Well, I wasn't even thinking that. I was just thinking, imagine the people like, I feel like the generation before us, probably less so now, but there was, like, a generation where it was, like, a a badge of honor if

Dax: 01:10:33

you just, like, lived out of a suitcase and, like, traveled for work all day.

Adam: 01:10:36

Can you imagine?

Dax: 01:10:37

That's still, like, an ideal people have. I have some friends that it. Oh, really? For a very long time.

Adam: 01:10:42

I got their, like, million mile status thing, medallion, whatever.

Dax: 01:10:46

Yeah. Like, all my friends, like, were, like, consultants out of You know that whole thing? Like, you graduate school, you join a consulting firm, and you're literally

Adam: 01:10:53

like McKinsey or Accenture or something?

Dax: 01:10:56

It's like I don't know. It's like Sunday it. Night, you fly out to a client, and then you fly back on Friday. And that's what they did for years. This is

Adam: 01:11:05

what I mean when I the the fake thing. I just feel like there's so much stuff that's so fake, like business travel. Nobody needs to travel for business. Now I'm not saying what I just did. Like, that was fun.

Adam: 01:11:15

It was, like, the whole point of it is, like, our team just get together because we only work online together, and it's, like, nice to get together and do fun stuff together. That's fine. But the kind of business travel where it's like, I'm sending a consultant to your office. Like, that's just so pointless to me. Why am I just discounting, like, a whole industry and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Dax: 01:11:33

Proper bit of both. Yeah. It's like I think I mean, I think that those consulting firms are, like, so such bullshit.

Adam: 01:11:40

It's a joke. It's like yeah. If an entire industry could be LinkedIn. That's what it is.

Dax: 01:11:46

Yes. And the thing about what I just described, who do they send to these places? Someone that just graduated college. It. Why are you paying $300 an hour for someone that literally just graduated college that knows literally nothing?

Adam: 01:12:00

Yeah, very little life experiences, let alone professional experiences.

Dax: 01:12:04

It's just like a I think it's all just like a liability shifting thing. There's, like, some inherent value and having work done by external parties.

Adam: 01:12:11

Oh, that's so slimy and gross. Like, some executive that just wants to stay there longer, so he just can point fingers at consultant. This is all so dumb. Yeah. I'm sorry.

Adam: 01:12:20

I this is the spiraling. Just the more I think about it. I'm like, none of us should have jobs. This is all pointless.

Dax: 01:12:27

But not what we do. What we do is not what we do.

Adam: 01:12:29

Everything else is pointless. I think that's a good note to end on.

Dax: 01:12:36

Okay. Alright.

Adam: 01:12:38

I I had this urge. I don't know why I have this urge to, like, meta talk about the podcast for a second. I don't know.

Dax: 01:12:43

Should you should we should we do that after we work? Like, should we do that now? Like, while we're recording?

Adam: 01:12:47

I don't mean, like no. I don't I just mean, like, I wanna say something, like Yeah. Good. Like and subscribe or something. Don't know.

Dax: 01:12:52

What are you saying at the

Adam: 01:12:53

end of a podcast? We never, like, do the podcast thing.

Dax: 01:12:55

Is that even

Adam: 01:12:55

a thing? No. Don't do that. No. Don't do that.

Dax: 01:12:56

Where do people even listen to this?

Adam: 01:12:58

That's a great question. I think it's in our analytics. I think it says. I think most of it's Spotify.

Dax: 01:13:03

I think you listen to the podcast. Is it Spotify?

Adam: 01:13:05

That's I'm so glad you said that. I actually listened to our podcast yesterday on the plane. I I was like, you know what? I haven't listened to any of our episodes for months. I need to hear what we sound like on a podcast.

Adam: 01:13:15

I listened to it. I'm one of our listeners. No big deal. Yeah. I'll subtract that

Dax: 01:13:20

from our analytics.

Adam: 01:13:22

Right. And my mom, she's probably, like, listening on repeat. I listen on Spotify. Yeah.

Dax: 01:13:28

Okay. I'm not a podcast person. I think they're stupid. Just kidding.

Adam: 01:13:31

So funny. It's so funny that you would be on a podcast and not be a podcast person. I don't

Dax: 01:13:36

do any of this stuff that I do. You know? I feel like

Adam: 01:13:40

You don't do any of the stuff that you do.

Dax: 01:13:41

You know what I mean? Insightful.

Adam: 01:13:43

Could you tweet that for me? That's a good one.

Dax: 01:13:44

That's a

Adam: 01:13:45

good tweet if I've ever seen one. No. I know I know what you mean. Like, making YouTube video. You don't watch YouTube.

Adam: 01:13:51

I I get it. Yeah. You don't you don't watch Twitch, but you're streaming on Twitch right now.

Dax: 01:13:56

Right. And, like, when I make, like, tutorial stuff, like, I don't really consume that. I do read tweets. I guess I post tweets, and I read them. That's a little bit of a dumbest.

Dax: 01:14:04

Do you see my React tweet yesterday? No. I bet you're not gonna get it. I'm

Adam: 01:14:10

probably not gonna get it. You're not gonna get it at all. Hang on. I'm gonna read it. So see if I get it.

Dax: 01:14:13

You're not gonna get it.

Adam: 01:14:14

Let's take bets and just switch that one, I guess. Just see. I found you another way to implement our nope. Nope. Nope.

Adam: 01:14:21

I guess this is a It

Dax: 01:14:22

starts with I miss the old React.

Adam: 01:14:24

Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.

Adam: 01:14:25

I missed the old React straight from Facebook React. Component did mount react with this dot state dot count react. I mean, this is bringing back memories, but I feel like this is like a song reference or something. Yeah.

Dax: 01:14:35

Yeah. It is. Okay.

Adam: 01:14:36

Okay. I hate the new React, Triangle Crew React. Oh, this is so good. Be needing use React, server side views React. It rhymes too.

Dax: 01:14:47

Yeah.

Adam: 01:14:47

Oh, it's a troll React. It's the word React.

Dax: 01:14:49

No. It's also the word before that. Like, use, reviews, crew.

Adam: 01:14:54

Look at you. I missed the sweet react to boot up from Vite React. I gotta say, at that time, I'd like to tweet react. This is good. I'm not gonna read the whole thing because I feel like this is getting less entertaining by the second.

Adam: 01:15:08

But what is it? What's the song?

Dax: 01:15:09

Okay. So there's a Kanye song he wrote about himself. Like, I miss the old Kanye. But he, like, performs it or, like, he sings it. And it's really interesting because it's him getting in the minds of fans that are, like, it.

Dax: 01:15:22

I miss old Kanye. Like, the new Kanye is weird. Acknowledging their point of view, but then, like, having this nice sentiment of, like, It's okay, like, things evolve. We miss the old one. We have nostalgia, but it's it's, like, a really nice sentiment.

Dax: 01:15:34

Yeah. So I I posted that. A lot of people understood what the reference was, and I just thought it was funny. Of course. Of course.

Dax: 01:15:41

There is people out there that are, like, like, you need to evolve and, like, get with the new React. Like, just move on. Like, That stops you need to, like, stick with the old thing or to move to a new thing or, you know, die. It's like, this is you're so lame. This is the lamest response in the universe.

Dax: 01:16:02

Like, there's nothing lamer than this. Like, you missed the point. You missed it. You missed the reference. You also missed the nicer sentiment underneath.

Adam: 01:16:11

And then

Dax: 01:16:11

you, like, tried to be smart about it. It. Like, you try to pick

Adam: 01:16:14

this up. I gotta read all the replies. You just took up another 20 of my minutes because I'm gonna go back. I just saw this is the best DAX tweet ever from Alice, and it's true. This is probably the most effort you've is this the most effort you've ever put into a tweet?

Dax: 01:16:27

It was up there.

Adam: 01:16:28

I guess you've written some long ones. You've written some big insightful post. So that's a it's

Dax: 01:16:32

a high bar. But what

Adam: 01:16:33

is this this book icon? What does this do? What?

Dax: 01:16:37

What was it?

Adam: 01:16:37

Did that just do? It. No. Not the bookmark one. I know that one.

Adam: 01:16:42

There's like a an open book, and I clicked on it, and it changed is this like a print view? What is this? If I wanna print a tweet? It. It, like, changed the page.

Dax: 01:16:50

Print my tweet. Kind of

Adam: 01:16:51

a modal.

Dax: 01:16:52

Print my tweet. Immortalize it. Immortalize it.

Adam: 01:16:56

I don't know what this is. It's like a reader view? I don't know. Anyway

Dax: 01:17:00

Do you not have to pee?

Adam: 01:17:01

I don't have to pee.

Dax: 01:17:02

What the hell? I don't have to pee. Why don't I have to pee? I've drank a lot.

Adam: 01:17:07

Because you

Dax: 01:17:07

already peed yourself. You haven't realized. Gotcha.

Adam: 01:17:11

I got a bottle. That Melican you saw earlier?

Dax: 01:17:14

Yeah. Is that the the the water volume?

Adam: 01:17:17

The pink one.

Dax: 01:17:18

No. The pink one. Oh, no. Okay. Sorry.

Dax: 01:17:20

I heard something.

Adam: 01:17:21

You thought I was You thought I was, I recycled it or something? No. I've been using it. This is a dumb joke. I need to stop.

Adam: 01:17:29

Okay. Why don't I have to pee? That's really weird. Anyway, I don't know how to end our podcast ever. We're 77 episodes in.

Adam: 01:17:34

It's always

Dax: 01:17:35

I have to pee. So I

Adam: 01:17:36

mean, yes. Normally, yeah. If I don't have to pee, I feel like we're just gonna go for 2 hours.

Dax: 01:17:39

What do

Adam: 01:17:39

we do?

Dax: 01:17:39

Get the fuck out of here.

Adam: 01:17:41

Oh, that's a new ending. That's a good one. Okay. Sorry, mom.

Dax: 01:17:44

I'm tired of you. Get out of here.

Adam: 01:17:47

Okay. I'm gonna hit the end button. Okay. Bye bye. Just without even saying, Nope.

Adam: 01:17:51

Don't

Dax: 01:17:54

do nope.