React, Reading, and Rituals

Dax: But look, I'm gonna be a pro.

I'm gonna switch to this and I'm
gonna tech check if your audio works.

Say something.

Adam: Ooh, I'm saying things.

Dax: And your audio works.

Adam: And my audio works.

Dax: We're not gonna go five
minutes and have someone yell at us.

Adam: Look at us.

We're so on top of things.

Sometimes I forget this
is a podcast, like,

Dax: What is this?

Adam: I've got two Twitch
things to talk about.

Dax: Let's do it.

Adam: Uh, one I just saw they
announced TwitchCon 2024.

It's not in Vegas.

I, San Diego.

Dax: I saw that and I was like, I've
always wanted to go to San Diego.

It's, people are always
saying, Diego was amazing.

You, I check out San Diego.

Everyone loves San Diego.

They said the Mexican food's so good.

There's a zoo there.

I think,

Adam: You gotta go this year.

Dax: Yeah, I'll heavily consider it.


Adam: consider it.

Uh, the dates are right
here, September 20th to 22nd.

Dax: Ooh, I have plans that day.

Adam: You do not.

There's no way you plan out
September like that far in advance.

Dax: Uh, Des says, Dax
unfollowed me on Twitter.

I'm too bored.

Okay, so I will confess, I unfollowed
a bunch of people last week.

Do not take it personally.

Uh, I'm just in a period of time
where I like need to really focus

on certain things and I need to
like not get distracted by things

that are easily distracting.

Adam: What a jerk.

Dax: So,


Adam: Don't you know that Twitter

following is just friendship
and it means nothing else.

Dax: Adam.

Do we, do we

need to get into what you do

Adam: What do I do?


Dax: how You, you follow people?

Then you realize you don't
like what they're saying

and you don't unfollow them.

You just

mute them.


you keep them followed
a frigging back staber.

Adam: So you just, you follow
people who you have a connection to.

That's all that matters.



Dax: Yeah, I know that, that, that's
why I felt weird to unfollow people.

'cause I'm like, it seems like
a dramatic statement, but.

Adam: You should feel weird and bad.

I'm sorry, dev.

On behalf of Dax.

I'm sorry.

Dax: Is Adam only has muted.

Yeah, I, I was starting to do the mute
thing and I was like, this is weird

that I'm just gonna see a bunch of,
like, you've muted this all over my

feet and I don't know, it's awkward.

Not, don't take it personally.

I'm just,

uh, I'm just trying to,
focus on some other things.

Adam: I'm gonna take it personally
on behalf of all of these people

that you've now unfollowed.

I don't like it.

I don't like one bit.

Uh, another Twitch thing.

Shifting back to the Twitch thing.

Uh, one you're going to TwitchCon.

That's awesome.

San Diego.

It's gonna be amazing.

Uh, two.

Uh, I bought a, a cellular
modem for streaming


Dax: I saw your stream and
it was very, I didn't see it

live, but I watched the thing.

It seemed like really good quality in

Adam: Well that, that was
actually just my phone.

Dax: Oh really?


Adam: Yeah, that was just
my phone on a little stand.

But after streaming one Jiujitsu
tournament, I thought I'm

gonna stream everything I do.

I'm gonna stream all my training
sessions with like, personal

trainer, my weight training sessions,
my jiujitsu training session.

I'm gonna stream it all.

I don't care because I can't
really stream at my desk right now.

Ya on Twitch?

Dax: That's cool.

How does a cellular modem work?

You pay for like another line
with your carrier basically.

Adam: This company makes these
like two and four modem setups

that it uses like a bonded thing.

It like bonds multiple,
there's some bondage involved.

I don't know.

Uh, it takes like, you just pay them a
monthly fee and they provide this like

multi-carrier stable connection thing.

Dax: Oh, multi.




Adam: got two modems.

I didn't go for four.

Dax: Nice.

And have you tried it?

Have you tried it with like,

Adam: It's not here yet,

Dax: Oh, okay.

Adam: but I'm gonna start
as soon as it gets here.

Like every, everything I'm
doing physical activity wise,

Dax: You can be like a live news channel.

You know, it's just like whenever you see

Adam: Just walk around.

Dax: just run up in
the street and be like,

Adam: in the Ozarks.

I don't go outside on streets.

I don't know what streets
you're talking about, but

Dax: I, I wish, uh, I wish that I
really need to get like those glasses

with a camera in them because I live
in a place where literally every

single day I see something ridiculous.

Like the other.

Yesterday I went out,
uh, to my front yard.

I was like playing with Zuko and I look
up and there was a lime green Lamborghini

SUV driving backwards down my street.

Adam: What,

Dax: and I'm like, I bet there's
people that go through their

whole life and never see that.

Adam: I didn't know there
were any PHP developers in,

Dax: No Lamborghini SUV.

Adam: Oh

Dax: There's at least

Adam: know Lamborghini made an SUV.

That's how poor I am.

Dax: I, I consider it a scam.


Here's why I consider it a scam.

The Lamborghini, SUV is actually just
an Audi, SUVI forgot the exact model.

Adam: What?

Dax: that the core, like the, they call
it the platform and they put a body

kit on it to make it look like, oh.

Or it's like a

cool Lamborghini with Like jagged edges.


And they're super popular because
SUVs are really convenient,

like most families need SUVs.

And if you're rich, you're like, I
want a, I want a Lamborghini SUV.


they're crazy

Adam: comparable to, like, is it like a
cheaper thing that they sell or is it,

Dax: I think it's still like
a three or $400,000 car.

I think the,

Adam: Wow.

Dax: the car that's built on,
it's built on top of is like a

hundred thousand dollars car.

So scam, if you buy it
and I see you in it.

I know you got scammed.

Adam: Well, like you can
use my, uh, my glasses.

I've got some, and I
haven't used them in months.

Well, since that time I put
them on for the podcast.

I think it

Dax: Uh, Wait, wait,
which ones do you have?

The Snapchat ones.

The metal


Adam: ones.

Dax: Oh, you haven't?

Wait, but you got those
recently, didn't you?

It didn't stick.

Adam: whenever that was a few months ago.


I haven't used them

Dax: If you wanna send 'em to
me, I will happily take it.

Adam: Okay.

Yeah, I would love to see some Miami.

That would be fun.

Uh, there's just nothing around me
in the Ozarks, so it's like, it'd be

the inside of my house all the time.

And like, I don't know, once you've
seen it, once, you've kind of seen it.

Am I, do I have a
problem with consumerism?

I, I wanna talk about this.

Uh, there was a tweet and it's
from a friend, and if this friend

happens to notice that I'm talking
about this tweet, just know.

Uh, I was not offended by you.

In fact, I can't be offended.

That's the thing about me,
a personality trait of mine.

Uh, not offended by you,
but it did, it woke me up.

The tweet was basically something like,
if you replace religion in a society, uh,

or if you eliminate religion in a society
and people will fill it with things, fill

that void with things, that are worse.

Uh, something, something like
consumerism and I thought about how

I got rid of religion in my life and
I feel like I'm kind of a consumer.

Is, is a consumerist.

What, what is the word?

Just consumer and I'm

Dax: One.

One who partakes in consumerism.

Adam: I partake in consumerism.

Yes, I worship with the
church of consumerism.

I guess not really.

Uh, but I do think, uh, yeah, maybe I, uh.

Maybe I need some spirituality in
my life or something so I can be

less, I don't know, like I buy meta
glasses and I never wear 'em again.

What's that mean?

What does it mean, Dax?

Dax: I think that initial statement
you're talking about combines like

a million different things together.

There's a version of it that can be true.

So for me, yes, I think religion
historically has served a lot

of fulfilling things that people
need, just like a way to live life

because that's like, was not a thing
you ever had to think about until

recently, how do I live life?

What do I eat?

What do I do?

How do I die?

What happens when I die?

Like how do, how do I get buried?

Like all those questions are answered.

I don't necessarily think if you
remove that, you automatically

fill it with stuff that's worse.

I think there's plenty of people that are,
in this example, they're into consumerism

and they're also religious, and there's
people that don't have religion and swap

it with something maybe even better.

So I don't know if those things are.

Should assume those things
are related for you, like they

might be, but I, I don't know.

But the question I have is like, what is
consumerism, like when people say that,

like what are they actually describing?

Like what, what do you
picture in your head?

Adam: So I, I'm glad you asked that.

'cause I, when I thought about, uh,
this question I wanted to pose to you, I

thought Dax is gonna have an answer that
reminds me that, like abundance and stuff.

Uh, uh, I think when I hear
consumerism, I think like excessive,

consuming excessive buying of things,

Surrounding yourself with things
that you don't really need.

I guess that's what I think of.

Dax: Yeah.


mean, I definitely feel this too.

So where do you put all your stuff
when, like these glasses that you

don't, you're never gonna touch again.

Like where do they go?

Adam: Uh, they're currently in my
juujitsu bag just in case I decide

Dax: just too bad.


Adam: while I'm rolling or something.

I guess.

I don't know.

Dax: When, when things of yours get
more permanently retired, would you

like put them in a singular place?

Adam: Uh, permanently retire.

We give them away to
the, uh, thrift store.

Dax: Oh, okay.

That, so that actually feels better.

So, so here's


Adam: I always feel bad when I drop boxes
full of stuff that we don't want there.

Like, I don't know.

Dax: There was definitely a
phase, uh, during Covid where.

I was making a crazy amount of
money, Liz was just making a crazy

amount of money and like literally
anything that I saw, like I was

just like, I'm just gonna get it.

'cause it just means, you know, nothing
like has no impact on my finances.

And I ended up buying like a lot of stuff.

There's a reason why I have two
longboards here and a longboard behind

me, which are each like $2,000 each.



Adam: didn't know they
were that expensive.



Dax: Yeah, they're electric,
so them costing a lot.


Like I just piled up with a bunch
of things and I will say for me

personally, that was reflecting on that,
like that wasn't the right balance.

I would see like, and 'cause I
was in New York, like when you,

you don't have a lot of space.

When you have stuff that you don't use
anymore, it like really sticks out and

then you would see, start seeing these
like piles of things or like in your

closet, like a bunch of things that you
just bought on a whim and then you're

literally never gonna touch again.

And I, I got this image of my head
where I'm like, wow, so many products

that get built are just future garbage.

Um, like if you look at, if you look
at Shark Tank, uh, there's some great

products on Shark Tank, but you know,
a lot of products, there are something

that, that are gonna get like popular,
sell $10 million worth and like just die.

And every single person that buys that
is never gonna actually use it long term.

So they're like just
manufacturing future garbage.

I think that aspect of it
I've like, had trouble with.

And there's also these, these, these
diminishing returns where when you like

go from not having money to having money,
it's like crazy when you're able to

buy all this stuff that you couldn't.

But after you're in that phase for
a while, like you, you get the new

thing and you get bored of it of a
day and it's like it's not actually

impacting your life that much.

I've been trying to like, make myself
wait a couple days before I would like

pull the trigger on something and I end
up and I end up not a lot of the times.

And the other side of it is I'm
trying to force myself to have like a

clear pipeline of if I get something
and I don't want to use it, I don't

want to sit in my closet forever.

Like I need to have a way to have someone
that can get some use out of it, take it.

And that also puts some
constraints on things.

So I wouldn't say I'm
like, like some aesthetic.

Aesthetic, what's the word?

A aesthetic.


Adam: know what word you're trying

Dax: There's a word, aesthetic.

It's like you've given up all
earthly possessions or something.

It's like, to that, to that extreme,
I'm definitely like not going to

that degree at

Adam: and I really wanna
know what it is now.

Dax: Uh, it's, yeah, it, it's like
the word aesthetic, but it's spelled

differently and in a lot of ways
it's like the opposite of aesthetic.

Adam: Is it associated with
like a certain belief system

Dax: I think it's like an east,
I think it's like an eastern

Adam: okay.

Dax: philosophy thing.

Yeah, it's like I'm, the reason I
keep looking over to my right is

'cause my closet door's open and this
is where like I put all my stuff.

and looking at it now, like I've
gotten rid of a lot of things and

I'm like, it's like gone to people
that are actually gonna use it.

But, but I do think there's a lot of
stuff that's made in the world that's

like very clearly just future garbage.

Adam: Yeah, like I've got my, I
was, I don't know, I had an iPhone

12 or whatever number it was and
whatever it number is now, 15.

I don't know.

I just got a new iPhone.

It had been a few iPhones that I

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: uh, but like the old iPhone
just sitting up there in my room

and I don't know what to do with it.

I was gonna recycle it,
and they never sent a box.

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: Apple was gonna take it back anyway.

Dax: On that topic.

So another thing that I look
at that makes me feel bad is I

have a stack of phones that are

like, that's like this tall,

Adam: phones that I'm like, maybe
the kids will use 'em someday.

No, they won't.

Dax: Yeah, exactly.

But you, but I know there's like
a efficient, productive way to

like, like as a society, there's
someone out there that knows like

the right thing to do with them.

But this is why was one of the biggest
things I'm happy with switching to Apple.


Because they have like this whole
giant global system of like ingesting

old phones and like ing them and
like reselling them and everything.

So now I just traded my phone every single
time and I don't have to feel bad when

I upgrade 'cause I know that they can
do the most efficient possible thing.

And I wish that existed with
like every piece of electronic.

There's some companies in Miami
that like just specialize in that

for electronics and I need to like
look into that a little bit more.

But I.

For me, if I, if I'm getting rid of the
stuff in a way where I feel okay about,

I don't like worry about it too much.

That's really the part that bothers me.

Adam: So, okay.

Getting away from like
the consumerism angle.

The, am I missing, am I missing,
uh, other things in my life though?

'cause that's what I
was really getting at.

Do you feel like, do you do
like meditation or anything?

Dax: J.

Coworker, he has gotten
super into meditation.

He's been, he does it every single
morning and he is been doing

it for a very long time now.

And he's hit that threshold where it like
has turned into another thing where like

you're actually doing it correctly and
it feels like this crazy, like almost

Adam: Like

Dax: drug.




And all it took was just like doing
it every day, even though it felt

like it wasn't working at all.

Adam: Yeah.

How long, how long did you say?


Dax: I know you've been doing it.

For at least a year,
maybe even more than that.

But I think he's tried a few times in
his life before and this is the first

time he is like broken through on it.

Adam: I've tried it.

I've maybe done 30 days, something like
that, but it didn't ever feel like,

Dax: Yeah, it took a while, but I wouldn't
say I have anything that's so concrete

in terms of the spirituality category.

I think I would like to get more
stuff like that, a little bit.

Um, but I will say like
I do see things from, I.

I don't look at everything in life,
like super logically irrationally.

So I think that kind of
steps in that direction.

Like, um, I feel there's all sorts
of like subtle ways to get to this.

Like one thing I really believe
in is like taking care of the

stuff that you use for work.

So there there's like older ideas that,
like you, you see in movies and stuff

that I think have just stuck with me.

Like there's this cliche of like as
Samurai taking care of his equipment and

like treating his like sword in like this
almost, uh, like spiritual way where he

treats it like, it's like a real entity.

I feel that way with like the stuff that I
use for work and I like think about it in

that way and it's not this rational thing.

I'm like, you know, this is the stuff
that I use to like, make my livelihood

and I have this like, relationship with
it that kind of personifies it a little.

So I think a lot of places in my
life, like, uh, I have like a more

primitive view or like a more like.

I know what the word is, like, it's
almost like magical thinking, I guess.

Um, so I, I feel that, and I think I'm
naturally inclined at, at least to go in

that direction a little bit, and I think I
need to like pull that outta myself more.

Adam: Lean into it.


Dax: Yeah.

Do you feel that way at all?

Adam: Well, I like, I guess I feel,
feel that way about things like, uh,

my keyboard or like, yeah, I guess to a
certain extent the way I customize things.

They do feel, I've thought like about
the lightsaber, like the Star Wars

lore, like a lot of what we do as
developers, once you've done it for

10 years, you kind of need that like,
I don't know, expression, that outlet

to like customize your environment
that you spend so many hours in.

So like, I, I saw somebody tweet the
other day about, uh, like having a

fancy keyboard or having, uh, like.

Riced out, VIM or whatever isn't
gonna make you a good programmer.

And it won't, it's not about, it's
just about like, at the, at some point,

you're gonna want those things to
just feel like your own little home.

And I definitely thought about it in
terms of, oh, you said the sword, like

in terms of this thing that has brought
me all of my, uh, income throughout my

life, uh, that's not spiritual, but, or I

hadn't viewed it as it,

Dax: It kind of is in the sense
that like you take a step back

and you realize that like crazy.

Miraculous some of this stuff
around you isn't like, I mean,

I feel this way to be honest.

Like every morning when I go outside,
specifically on days where it's

sunny, like I'll stand outside in
the morning, and I'll feel the sun

and it just feels like so crazy good.

And I'm just like, it feels amazing to be
alive that I can't believe this exists.


Adam: Yeah.

Dax: I think, yeah, you have moments
where you can reflect on that stuff.

And even with work, I think to me
the tension is really between like

rationality and efficiency and like
doing things more off of faith or

belief without having a reason.

Uh, a lot of big work decisions
I do are way more in the

category of like, gut feel.

Like when I meet someone,
do I wanna work with them?

Who do I feel like in my gut?

Like, do I get a really good feeling?

I don't like, think about it as like,
our company is like this and we need

these skills and we like don't have
these skills and we like, I don't like

to work that way for a lot of things.

Like when I do deals with other
people, like I don't need to like

have a million contracts to sign.

I just want to feel good about the
person and do a handshake deal.

So I think there's like aspects of life
where you can go one way or the other.

Um, and I feel like in the modern
world, we go really way too far the

like the rational thought process,

explanation for everything.

Adam: Yeah, I think that's where I'm, I'm
just feeling like I go too hard that way.

I should find some balance and
figure out how to introduce.

I, I think I've talked about this before,
like even, especially with family, like

having kids not wanting to, like I.

have no beliefs or spiritual
aspects to my life.

Like that just feels bad.

Like that they're just kind of like left
to figure that stuff out on their own.

Like I try to prepare them for
other things in life, why not?

Uh, have that as part of it?

I don't know.

Dax: Yeah, just do stuff
that doesn't make sense.

Like, are do you, do you guys have
like, uh, the thing that's funny

for me is, uh, Latin people are
super, are like very superstitious.

Like, so my wife's family is like really
superstitious and like, I, I like to

like, I really like to like play with it.

'cause I'll say stuff

they find like, oh, you can't say that.

'cause if you say that, it'll happen.

So I, I like, I love messing with that
side of things, but yeah, like this,

this shows up in so many places, right?

Like if you, I know there's people that
are like, that are like fans of a sports

team and they'll have some like ritual
they do before every game 'cause they

feel like there's some connection to it.

So yeah, just like doing
stuff that doesn't make sense.

But that doesn't mean it's, there's
like something there though, though.

Yeah, just like make stuff up sometimes
I'm like the, the other day I was

thinking like maybe I should just
have some like random like ritual I

do before I start every day of work.

And in my head I'll be like, if I don't
do this, I'm not gonna have a good day.

Uh, and it's just like a totally made
up thing, but you know, something to it.

Adam: There was something, some
train of thought you took on

Twitter that I wanted to talk about.

Oh, maybe it's the React stuff.

Uh, so like lots of people came out
like, well-respected people that don't

like, just like, come out and say bad
things about things for no reason.

And it's not that they said bad
things, but just express frustration.

So, uh, Cassidy and Tanner
are the two that come to mind.

Are there other people I missed?

Dax: Yeah, there were a few others too.

So just to summarize, they both wrote
like nothing extreme, just minor.

Not minor, but like I.

They've just felt this building
frustration in the direction of

React and how it doesn't align with
the stuff that they care about.

And they felt that way.

They feel that way for a while.

And it's nothing major.

It's not like fundamentally
technical or anything.

And I think that's, with these types of
topics, it's tough 'cause people like

bring up the technicalities of like,
no, like what you're saying is not true.

'cause you can still do
this and you can sit.

Then they bring all these technical
details, but it's not really about that.

It's just about the vibe
and the direction and what.

React cares about today, you know,
might not be what you care about.

And it feels always, feels not
great to be building on something

where you feel like secondary,
even if it's not technically true.

Uh, it just feels, it can feel that way.

So I think a bunch of people wrote stuff.

Uh, my thing with this week was just
like, I cannot believe to the extent

that people can talk about RFCs.

Like, this is, this is
like so crazy to me.

I'm like.

They're really

not that

Adam: it a psyop?

Is it being seeded by people who just
wanna see Rses talked about more?

Because I, I do wonder how

Dax: of because, because Dan is
like very into the conversation,

even though it's frustrating for him
because people are arguing with him.


Adam: Yeah.

Why did Dan, why did Dan make
a new Twitter by the way?

I didn't catch

Dax: This is a funny detail.

So, Dan Abramov, uh, was
working at Meta obviously for

the past couple years on React.

He decided to leave and
guess where he joined?

Adam: Wait,

Dax: you know where he

Adam: to Vercel?

Dax: No.

Can go to Vercel.

He went to Blue Sky and because he went
to Blue Sky, Twitter, shadow banned

Adam: No,

Dax: account.

So petty the

Adam: People work at Blue Sky.

Dan Abramov works at Blue Sky.

Dax: bluesky,

Adam: got, I need a minute
to just soak that in.

That's like three
Twitter replacements ago.

Dax: I know.

I know, but I

Adam: Did they offer him like a truckload
of like, what motivates Dan Abramov?


Dax: because I, think it is genuinely.

I think so.

I remember when he was talking about
leaving and I remember when he like

he said that he knew where he was
gonna go and he wasn't joining there

for a month or a couple months.

I think at that point Blue Sky
was actually like the, the thing

everyone was like jumping to.

So I guess there was like some momentum
behind it, but I can see why conceptually

it's interesting, like conceptually
of all the Twitter replacements.

Adam: Oh, that's the one
that Jack is involved with,

Dax: Yeah.

Hey, I have shares in that company.

I think,

Adam: Oh, hey,

Dax: yeah,

Adam: your block or

Dax: The bad block.

Um, I think conceptually it's
probably the most interesting.

So if you're someone that's like,
interested in what social media can

look like, that I would say is like
the most interesting, weird take on it.

Like I, whether it's gonna be successful
or not, I can see how that's like a

stimulating way of doing that stuff.

But yeah, he works
there and then he got a.


Adam: He got shadow banned,
so he made a new account.

Dax: And and Deb is saying
his new account is also Shadow

Band, but I've seen it a lot.

I've seen it all over my feed,
so I don't know to what degree.

Adam: Interesting.

I'm so glad I asked.

'cause that's, I didn't
know he worked at Blue Sky.

I wouldn't have found out either.

Dax: I didn't know either for a
while, and I was like, and I saw all

the shadow band stuff and I asked
someone and they were like, oh, I see.

Adam: wild.

I don't know.

Just like when I think of Dan leaving
Facebook and going somewhere else.

I would never have guessed Blue Sky.

I guess I see what you're saying
in terms of like, if you're gonna

end up at a Twitter quantum place.

That's an interesting one, I

Dax: Yeah.

Going back to this RC talk, it is

like, I don't think it's a psyop.

I'm just, it's just wild to me how
interested people are in, like, I feel

like people are faking the confusion.


Adam: I

was gonna say, I, I don't
find it confusing at

Dax: Me

Adam: I.

I've never thought it was confusing.

I just thought like the vibes,
the React vibes just bothered me.

Dax: Yeah.

But this whole week has just been
about like finding the, the inner

truth of RSCs and what they really
are and finding the perfect freaking

Adam: was like Illuminati

Dax: Yeah.


Adam: There's signs on dollar
bills and we gotta figure

Dax: yeah.

They're like trying to create some like I.

Like universal physics model, the
equivalent level complexity of RRCs

that explains a whole universe in
the world and everything there is,

that's what it feels like to me.

I feel like they're like, we're like
trying to look that deep into it and I

just, and it's kind of the reason why
I, and I started un following a bunch

of people because I, it just is not
worth my, this entering my brain and.

reason I unfollow is not a criticism
of people, it's a criticism of

myself because when I see this
stuff, I can't just ignore it.

It like does end up in my head
and I do end up thinking about it

and it's just, it's just a waste.

I just wanna focus on other things.

But, uh, it just, it has, I literally
thought it was gonna be a day or two, but

it's still going, like today, still going.

Adam: So this is what I

Dax: negotiating it

Adam: the thing I forgot, uh, that
I wanted to talk about because one,

one question I wanted to ask you.

Somebody say something about, oh, it
might've been Ryan, that, uh, that

there are people, he kind of came out
in defensive react, uh, with a tweet and

that mentioned that there's people, uh.

incentivized to kind of like make
you think the end of React is coming.

And I had had the thought before I saw
his tweet, like, is there just like some

like movement of anti-Reactism that's
motivated by something, but I couldn't

come up with, and I still can't come
up with what would the incentive be?

Who, who is incentivized to see?

I mean besides like, I guess other
frameworks, if you wanna have a

scarcity mindset, like solid jss.

Uh, I could see maybe like a handful of
people that, uh, like run open source

projects that maybe their adoption
is in direct competition with React,

but those aren't the people that are
saying stuff and I can't figure out why.

Why would someone be incentivized
to trash React to, to convince

people that React is bad?

Dax: I'm sure it has happened,
but I didn't find that point

that compelling either.

I think, uh, even the people, like
the people you mentioned, like, uh,

Tanner, uh, the people that were kind
of bringing it up this past week that

they were just kind of frustrated.

They're all continuing
to use React and their

products are built on React
and they're gonna continue

to use it for probably ever.

Those are, that those
are genuine frustrations.

Someone like me, I have a lot of attentive
to make it be like, React is over.

Adam: I actually thought

Dax: it annoying.


just find react

Adam: because you find it

Dax: don't, I don't like how
much that people talk about it

and I find it extremely boring.

So, personally,

Adam: but is that really?

But it's kind of like a
manufactured incentive.

Like it's

Dax: no, I care more about how like
being accurate and not like exaggerating.

So no, that doesn't actually come into
play, I don't think it's like the end

of React at all, but you know, I see how
it's not like as cherished as it once was.

Adam: Yeah, and I guess like I made, I
mean I made statements a while back about

how I felt about the vibes with React.

I know I didn't have any motivation
to like, convince people reacts bad.

When I see like Cassidy's posts and, and,
uh, Tanner's posts, I don't get the sense

that they have some like ulterior motive.


Ulterior, what is that word?

Dax: Is it ulterior with a u

Adam: I don't know.

That's what I just realized.

I've said ulterior motive all my life,
and I don't know what that word is.

Is that an actual word?


Dax: I think that, I think
these are two different words.

Adam: Oh boy.

Dax: Ulterior, ul.

It's okay.

Ulterior motive is correct, and
I think ulterior is like the

outside of something, right?

Adam: Okay.


Dax: No, I don't

Adam: So I don't think

Dax: ter, nevermind.

Ulterior is not a word.

Adam: it's not a word.


Dax: ulterior with a u.

Adam: With a word.

Oh, with a U.


Ulterior motives.

So I was mixing like alternative,
alternative, ulterior.

Ulterior motives.

Anyway, I don't think any
of us had ulterior motives.

At least in that small
group that I just mentioned.

So if the three of us, and we have
nothing in common, but like the

three, three individual people come
out and say something about the vibes

bothers me and we're not communicating
about it, I don't think Tanner

and Cassidy communicated about it.

Like there's something there.

What is it?

What is it about the vibes, quote unquote.

Is it a personality?

Is it people?

Is it.

What is it?


Somebody tell me what is it that
we all feel that we don't like?

Dax: To me I think it's a combination
of a lot of things like foundationally,

if you're doing work, you're trying to
build products, you're trying to do your

day-to-day job, and then you don't feel
like the work being done on React is

lining up with that, that's gonna create
some weirdness for you under the hood.

Then if there's like.

a bunch of marketing with it.

And if there's like companies behind
these things and if it's like, you know,

there's people behind these things that
are pushing certain messages and there's

fights with between those people too.

Adam: Mm-Hmm.

Dax: uh, you know, like next and remix,
like we haven't seen any kind of blow

up lately, but like, it's not like they
particularly like each other either.

So I think it's just like all these
things that it's so much stuff.

For such a little part,
tiny, tiny part of your work.

That's my guess.

Like, I think that's why I went, I'm just
like, this amount of attention it takes

to, it just, I, I'm, I'm, I'm really
just speaking for myself at this point.

Like just the amount

attention and focus it takes.

It's just like,

Adam: I mean, I'm also annoyed.

Maybe it rubs off.

Maybe you're making me annoyed at it, but

Dax: Oh, don't blame me.

Adam: I'm definitely

Dax: the real criminal Dan Abramov too.

No, I'm just kidding.

Adam: blue sky.


no, Dan's really, I, I like
every interaction I've had with

Dan, and, and that's what, I
don't think it's Dan, I think

Dax: No, it's not him at all.

It's not any individual person.

Adam: it's not an individual person,
but it is an a vibe and that's carried

out by groups of people, I guess.

I don't know.

Dax: There's this thing that's called
an emergent conspiracy, where you have

something that very much looks and
operates like a conspiracy, but there's

like no, like explicit malice or explicit
like intention to create a conspiracy.

It just emerges out of the complexity
of people and their incentives.

So that's probably
really, really all it is.

Everyone's trying to do their
best, but given the way things

are laid out and the history, like
it's kind of on a certain path.

Adam: Yeah.


Who would've thought the year 2024
the reputation of React would be, uh,

diminishing going downward, and the
reputation of Zuck would be going up.

I feel like he's had kind of a.

Dax: I hate it.

I hate it so much.

Adam: A little boost in

Dax: bothers me so much.

I know this the Fricking, the
freaking cow, macadamia nut shit.

Like everyone, everyone

loved that.

Adam: what you're talking about.

Dax: Well, you know how he bought
this huge property in Hawaii

and he's had it for a while, but

Adam: Did he buy it off Larry
Ellis or whatever, like part of

Dax: something, no, I don't think so.

I don't think it's an island.

I think it's a big, I don't know
what it is, but he is raising,

he's trying to raise like the
best beef, uh, in the world there.

And he has a bunch of cows.

He has a bunch of macadamia trees
and the cows eat macadamia nut meal.

Uh, and his kids are involved and they're
kind of like trying to do all that.

And for a lot of people it's like
their fantasy of like, I want to

quit programming and be a farmer.

And like it's kind

of what the, what their fantasy is.

So everyone's like super into that.

And I just, I just fucking hate, I
just hate Mark Zuckerberg so much and I


Adam: jiujitsu, so I kind of like him now.


Dax: yeah.

I know.

Adam: I'm part of the problem.

I actually love macadamia nuts too.

That's my favorite

Dax: nuts also.

I have

a bag of

Adam: they're so sweet.

They're just

Dax: they're great.

They're the, they're one of the best nuts.

Adam: Nobody talks about macadamia nuts.

I feel like it's the best nut by far.

Dax: It's one of the best.

It's also like, like health wise too.

It's one of the best options.

Adam: is it really expensive or something?

There's gotta be a downside.

Dax: It is, I would say it's
definitely more expensive than other

stuff, but it's not that crazy.

Like you can get a big ass bag and,

Adam: You're investing in your health.

You know, you gotta, oh, that's
something I wanna talk about.

We talked about last time, I
think last week it was, we talked

about, uh, what's his name?

Brian Johnson.


Dax: Yeah.

Adam: Uh, I'm participating in a
thing, a blueprint 5,000 something.

It's like a big study.

Uh, me and Casey got in.

You had to like apply and we
had to sing a little song.

I don't know.

We got in and now for like 90
days, I think we're gonna take, I.

We're gonna be taking all the
supplements he takes or something,

there's like a stack of stuff, and
then he's gonna ship us nutty pudding.

So not to make it, there's gonna be
all these different things we have

to do to adhere to this like study.

And they're gonna be taking
all these markers along the way

with all these 5,000 people.

So it's, it's gonna be fun.

Dax: that's really cool.

I'm, yeah, I'm really excited
about the research aspect

of everything they're doing.

Like it's.

It reminds me a lot of what science
used to be like in like the 18

hundreds or like in the past,
like at least what I imagined.

It's always just like some like rich
guy that's just like funding his

own, like Darwin is just like funding
his own trips to the Galapagos and

like figuring out of evolution.

Like it really feels like that.

Adam: Yeah.

And now it's like going from just the
one data point of his body to like,

potentially thousands of bodies.

People that do this, it, it's interesting.

We'll see what, what comes of it, I guess.

Dax: Yeah, it's great.

And I, it, it just, I also just love
this story of everyone, like saw

what he was doing initially and it
was like, oh, this is like a selfish

human that doesn't want to die.

But then you see this side of it and
it's like we're all gonna benefit.

So I love when people can be selfish
and it's also great for everyone.

So when are you going
to eat a steak again?

Adam: Never, I

Dax: never.

You are gonna die without
ever eating another steak.

Adam: Vegan steak, I mean,

Dax: What the f?

Adam: Lab grown

Dax: Don't say that.

Oh, lab grown.

You would eat lab

Adam: these, mycelium, well,
there's these like, uh,

mycelium, you know, like mushroom

Dax: Yeah.

Adam: There's these like steak
and chicken patties that they're

making now outta mycelium.

It's unbelievable, like

Dax: I love mushrooms.

Adam: and the taste.

They are so good.

And I don't

Dax: do they put like a
bunch of crap in them?

Adam: No, they're, they're like.

Pretty good.

I mean, I don't know.

I've never heard of anything
made of mycelium, so I don't

know how processed it has to be.

Just like mycelium are these
tiny little threads in the soil.

I have no idea how they harvest them.

'cause they're like super, like

Dax: yeah.

Adam: thinner than a hair, right?

I don't know how in the world they're
creating something out of that.

Uh, it feels like it's probably
still pretty heavily processed.

Not a thing we would eat
regularly, but they're really good.

Dax: I mean, I don't mind
if it takes a lot of work.

That's not necessarily bad for me.

It just like, 'cause I know with like the
meat substitute shit, it was just like a

shit ton of weird oils plus like, yeah.

And I was like, I don't,
that doesn't seem worth it.


Adam: yeah.

No, I don't, I don't like
to eat that kind of stuff.

I mean, I'm not looking to replace
the taste of steak in my life.

Uh, but it's interesting, all
the different products that are

coming out, they're plant-based.

Dax: So you're, you're gonna die
without ever eating a steak again.

Adam: So here's the thing.

I remember like a few years into our
journey, it's now been 11 years in

February, uh, I remember a few years
into going plant-based people being

like, how do you have the willpower to
just not, there's no willpower involved.

Like once you've done it.

for a while, and then you
have other reasons for doing

it that aren't just health.

Like we, we go through periods
where we eat terribly, like we eat

vegan junk food, like lots of it,
and we just, we lose the motivation

Dax: Thank everyone.

Adam: to be, yeah, to
care about our health.

But we still care about other things
that we didn't necessarily get into

plant-based eating over those things.

But just over time they kind of like
became part of our, I guess, beliefs.

I don't know.

And so there's no, like a bit of
tug from those things and not to

mention like dairy, certain foods now
just the idea of it makes me sick.

Dax: your taste can really get rewired.

It's crazy.

Adam: the idea of it getting in my
body just makes me want to throw up.

No, no temptation, no desire to ever
eat products that come from animals.

We sometimes have honey, like
when it's in stuff and it's like.

We don't wanna cause a scene.

Uh, that's the only like,

Dax: I dunno.

Adam: vegan thing that, uh, we've
crossed the line over the last 11 years.

Dax: Okay.

I gotta trick you.

Adam: How you gonna trick me?

Dax: I gotta trick you into eating some.

Adam: No, don't do that.

That's so awful.

That is so your brand, you would look
at you as you set in the dark with your

Dax: Well, you said, you
said it wasn't a spirit.

You're not spiritual.

So then I, I feel like I don't feel
bad if it's not like a religious thing.

Adam: What, so you only would care
if, okay, maybe it is a religious

Dax: Think about

it this

Adam: my religious beliefs don't
per, don't allow me to eat meat.

Don't do it.


Dax: Yeah.

Well, think about it this way.

If I trick someone that's religious
into eating meat, they feel like they've

committed a sin and that God is gonna
punish them, and like, that feels bad.

Adam: Yeah, I feel all those things.

You better not.

I'm gonna come to React

Dax: maybe.

I just don't care about your feelings.

Adam: And you're gonna, you're
gonna have food at your house,

or you're gonna say it's vegan.

I can't eat anything at your house now.

'cause I know this is a plan of yours.

Dax: No.


But, but actually I have that I
could, like I said, I have that

restaurant that I've been waiting
to go to till you're in town.

'cause there's no reason
I'm gonna go to a vegan

Adam: Oh, right.

There's a

Dax: my own accord.

But I heard it's very good.


Adam: Okay.

We're checking it out.

I can't wait.

I think I'm coming.

I think I'm coming the day
before and staying the day after.

I think I made that.

I made sure my React

Dax: Hmm.

Are you, do you think you're
bringing your family or just you?

Adam: maybe.

I mean, they're always looking
for excuse to go to the beach, so

Dax: Perfect.

And then we can go there.

Adam: Yeah, we can 'cause
you live by the beach.

What were we done with the React stuff?

It is funny, like we're all
gonna go to React Miami.

You don't even use React.

I don't use React really anymore.

We're all talking about the vibes
and how RSCs drive us crazy and the,

the just all the talking about it
nonstop and it's like, oh, React Miami.

Dax: Every single person I've talked
to in private has these same feelings,

like every single like relevant
person in the field that you would

respect has these exact same feelings.

So yeah, it just is a weird time.

But you know what, that's what's
great about a conference is like

the topic doesn't really matter
'cause you're there to see all the

people and that's what matters.

Adam: It's true.

It's the party of it.

Dax: We spent half of React Miami
talking about Solid J anyway.


Adam: You've gotten
everything outta me this week.

Is there anything you wanted to say?

Dax: So going back to what I
was saying earlier about like

respecting your equipment, like
I was not doing that at all.

It's crazy how many ca
cascading problems is created.

So all my cables were just like
hanging down to the ground behind

my desk, and it was on the ground,
which, Yeah, it was terrible.

And that was what the desk lifted up.

So imagine when it's lifted down,
they're all just lying on the ground.

Uh, so we couldn't vacu, it wasn't
easy to vacuum underneath the

Adam: yeah,

Dax: And when You l when you live
in the house like mine, you're like

inside, outside, like going in and out.


Zuko was going in and out and there
was like, just like, I was just

literally started like sit in dirt.

Like there was literally just like.

Piles of it was not, it was getting to
a really bad place and I was like, I

can't believe I let it get this far.

Um, and now I have cleaned floors again.

I feel so much better.

I think this has to give me like,
like a 20% productivity boost.

It has

Adam: It really does help.

When I'm, when my office is
clean, I feel so much better.

Like sometimes I let stuff build up
and, and I, my wires are always clean.

I don't, I'm not an animal, but,
but I do sometimes like have boxes

piled up or stuff that I don't know.

And if I ever just take the time
one morning to clean it up, I do.

I just feel good.

I like to look around.

I just feel like things are in place.

It's nice.

I don't know about a 20%
boost in productivity.

That's a little intense, but

Dax: I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a 20%.

I think it might actually even be higher.

I think 20% is, uh,


Adam: that like, does it fade over time?

I mean, surely it

Dax: Yeah, of course.


Then I gotta figure out
the next thing to change.


Adam: Yeah.

This is your magic thinking, isn't it?

You just got magical powers
from cleaning your room.

Now you've got a 20% boost.

Make it so, yeah.

How do you feel about
like manifestation stuff?

Casey thinks I manifest stuff.

She says, I've always said
I'm good at making money and

I am good at making money.

Like things like that.

Dax: I, this concept has never
really clicked that much for

me, but I, I don't like, I.

Disagree with it entirely.

I, but I think I also just don't know
what it is like, like what is it?

Like, is it

just saying stuff?

Adam: There is a book

Dax: know there's a book,
was it a secret or whatever?

Adam: stuff and like the
fields of energy all around us.

Dax: Yeah.

So I obviously don't believe in that, but

Adam: So I obviously, uh,

Dax: that, that's a secret, right?

Isn't that the name of the book?

Adam: oh no, that's not the
book I was talking about.

Maybe there's probably lots of books.

There's lots of books about
literally every single thing.

Uh, there's been a lot of time
for people to write books.


Dax: getting back into reading again.

Adam: Are you wait reading or listening?

Dax: No reading.


So I've

Adam: You like sit down with a physical
book and move your little finger

Dax: now Kindle

move my finger.

Am I like, I'm nine years old.

Adam: Yeah.

I don't know.

Dax: you still, do you still do that?

Do you

Adam: No, I just, I tried to, I tried
to drum up a visual of you setting with

Dax: No.

I, I think, I think you

finger read it's.

Adam: I finger read.

Dax: Is that what it's called?

Finger reading

Adam: fingers.

Not palms.

Those are easy.

It, it's really hard when you're start
to get into finger reading stuff.


Dax: Stupid.

Very stupid.

Very stupid set of sentences we just said.

Uh, I, yeah, I've been, I've been like
just turning off my phone before bed for

like an hour and just been, it's funny,
like I've, I've had this completely

different angle with reading where every
time I've read before I'm always like.

For some reason trying to read
as fast as possible and I had

this very obvious realization.

Like, for what?

Like why

Adam: There's no rush.

Dax: this really fast?

I actually don't, this is like the one
area in my life where I'm like, I don't

care about being good at reading or like
having read a lot of books or like, I

Adam: Wait, are

Dax: like a mountain
of stuff I wanna read.

Adam: reading fiction?

Dax: Yeah.

I found like a fantasy book,

Adam: so if you're reading for fun, yeah.

Who cares?

But I think I have that feeling 'cause
I'm always reading nonfiction stuff and

I'm trying to just learn it and like
get it in my head as fast as possible.

Dax: I would do that with fiction
too, mostly 'cause I just was

into the story and I was like,
I need to know what happens.

But, uh, yeah.

But now I'm like, this
is just a sleep aid.

Like I'm trying to, I'm literally
trying to read this to like make my,

'cause I get super sleepy when I read.

So I literally read for, like I
said, an hour, but really ends

up being like 15 minutes, maybe
like even 10 minutes sometimes.

And I just fall asleep,
like with my Kindle

Adam: Oh, you fall asleep.

You've just like used that to
literally take yourself to sleep.

Dax: Yeah, and it's great.

I read super slow.

It depends how I feel and I'm just
trying to, I'm just using it as like

a way to go to sleep, and I've been
really into it and the story's good.


Adam: Yeah.

Dax: like a real grownup doing this.

Adam: like a grownup, since we
talked about the, uh, the sleep

stuff, I, I heard about the 3, 2, 1.

Have you heard of this like three hours
before bed stop eating, two hours before

bed stop drinking and one hour before
bed, stop looking at your phone or any

Dax: Two hours before stopped drinking.

Like stopped drinking alcohol.

Adam: No, just like water, anything.

Dax: Oh really?

I drink a lot of water right before bed.

Adam: Really?

Do you have to get up and pee at night?

Dax: Nope.

'cause I don't have the bladder
of a small child like you.

Adam: Is it 'cause I'm 37 or did I always

Dax: Yeah.

Say When did this start?

Adam: I can't remember.

It was years ago.

Probably far enough back
that I don't remember.


Well, I hope when you're 37,
you have to pee so I don't have

to worry about my prostate.

Well, by then I'll have known if
it was something I need to worry

Dax: You probably have died from whatever

stuff you're ingesting in this study.

Adam: Let's not manifest my death
here on the podcast, please.


Dax: Wait, wait.

So the last hour, what do you
have to do before the last hour

Adam: don't be on your phone.

Just like you said.

Dax: and, and did that work?

Did that help you?

Are you doing

Adam: Uh, yeah, so I, I stopped
eating way before three hours.

I stopped drink.

I have been stopping my, my water intake
a lot earlier and I've, I haven't had to

get up, so I've gone a week now, I think.

I haven't had to get up in the night
and pee, which is super new for me.

It's nice.

Uh, and then the phone thing,
yeah, I'm not usually on my phone.

The evening.

Well, that's the only time
Casey and I get together.

We have like an hour and a half after the
boys go to sleep, before we go to sleep.

So, um, we're not really on our
phones during that stretch anyway.

Not having to get up to, to, to
pee has been huge for my sleep.

I think.

Dax: Nice.

Yeah, you did.

You did bring that up.

But a simple solution.

Adam: What a simple solution.

Stop drinking water before bed.

Dax: She is the most overly
hydrated person I know.

Adam: Yeah, I do drink a lot of water.

It's true if I don't drink a lot of water
though, or maybe it's 'cause I am drinking

too much water, I cramp, like in juujitsu
I get like a lot of muscle cramps.

Uh, I've been trying liquid IVs.

Those seem to really help.

Maybe I just don't have
enough electrolytes or

Dax: I was gonna say, don't
you, you were talking about

how many bananas you guys buy.

Like I'm

Adam: Yeah, no, I eat a lot of bananas.


I haven't eaten breakfast today.

It's 10 o'clock Dax.


Dax: It's 11 for me

and I haven't eaten either.

Adam: You haven't eaten either.

Dax: Mm-Hmm.

Adam: Look at us either.


Dax: We're intermittent fasting.

I guess there's

a thing for everything.

Adam: Accidental, intermittent
fasting that's funny.

Dax: Okay.

We can, uh, we can end it

Adam: Yeah.


Let's end it.


Dax: See

Adam: it.

Dax: ya.

Creators and Guests

Adam Elmore
Adam Elmore
AWS DevTools Hero and co-founder @statmuse. Husband. Father. Brother. Sister?? Pet?!?
Dax Raad
Dax Raad
building @SST_dev and @withbumi
React, Reading, and Rituals
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