Is It Just About the Friends We Make Along the Way?
Because every minute of our conversation is so entertaining. So I just wanna make sure it's all captured.
Speaker 2:You don't wanna talk to me unless it's on recording. Is that what you're saying? I didn't mean for that to be on a recording. How you been?
Speaker 1:I've been good. I mostly wanna hear about how you've been because you had TwitchCon this
Speaker 2:I did have TwitchCon.
Speaker 1:This weekend. You sound couldn't tell. Yeah. I was gonna say your voice sounds a little messed up.
Speaker 2:I don't even think it's from like, yelling, which there was, like, one night at the casino where it felt like everything was really loud and you're screaming, like, bar setting. But I think it's because everyone in Vegas smokes. I'm I'm pretty sure it's a requirement to be a Vegas citizen or traveler therein. It's awful. Why do people smoke?
Speaker 2:I don't understand. Have we ever talked about smoking?
Speaker 1:No. We haven't. I yeah. I mean, I I I don't get that because I think we're, like we're definitely in the generation where it fell off as a thing that a lot of people do. So it just seems super weird to me to develop that habit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's still a thing people do in our generation too. But I agree, like, we all were the ones that knew like, oh, smoking is bad. Like, they finally got rid of smoking. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But why? Why do people there are friends in our group, I won't name names.
Speaker 1:Well, we saw a picture. We saw trash of the cigarette in his mouth. And the whole time, the whole time prior to TwitchCon, he just kept being like, I know I wanna smoke a bunch of cigarettes.
Speaker 2:So So that's what he said. He only smokes when he travels, which cracks me up. Like, how do you have, like, the most addictive habit ever for, a few days and then go home and then never do it? I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I get that. It's like me and me and Liz have this joke that stuff doesn't count when you're traveling.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm I am the same way. Just I think smoking is this other level for me.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's like one more level. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But when I travel, I eat whatever. I don't care. Like, I feel awful because of it. And I wish I don't I wish I didn't do that.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I don't think about, like, sleep habits or exercise or I'm just like
Speaker 1:It doesn't it doesn't affect literally, scientifically does not
Speaker 2:affect you. Except it does affect you. Man, I feel awful. My voice is like, this is a I'm pretty sure just secondhand smoke. Like, I am basically a smoker at this point.
Speaker 2:My my lungs are probably black. I don't know. And then the sleeping, there was one night which I try like I've not gone to a lot of things. I guess this is like my third conference. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Is that right? Yeah. But I think each of the conferences, there's like one night where I go really hard. Yeah. And I like act like I'm 25 again and and party.
Speaker 2:There was one night, and it I think we slept, three and a half hours that night. And then we're up doing the thing the next day. It's just not good for you. All the food I ate. Ugh.
Speaker 2:But then at the same time, nobody eats. Like Uh-huh. The whole conference day, you're in this big building that's very hard to get to anything. And mostly, everybody just kinda, like, acts like no one eats. I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's weird.
Speaker 1:Which is why I think as crazy as Vegas is, I don't think it's the best place for a conference because everything is so difficult. You can't just, like, on a whim, go do something unless you're like, I'm just gonna go eat the same place every single day for every single meal. Because you can't like, traveling around the strip is so hard.
Speaker 2:It's a nightmare. It it's even worse right now because they're doing this f one race
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In, like, a few weeks. And so they're they're shutting down parts of the strip to, like, build these huge grand sands and all this. So I I'm not even kidding you. We were just, like, a mile north of the Bellagio, but for some reason, everybody won the gamble at the Bellagio every night. I guess they have the best casino.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Like, what there's casinos all over the place. Can we just, like, stay up here? It would it'd be, like, forty five minutes to an hour to go a mile down the Strip in an Uber. And I guess we could have walked in retrospect.
Speaker 2:But even walking in Vegas takes way longer than it should. Like, you think you're close to something and like, you have to zigzag around.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's forever.
Speaker 2:It's just a I know.
Speaker 1:It's it's insane. Even though when you're inside a building and you're just trying to get to the end of the building Yeah. It's just Yeah. It's amazing.
Speaker 2:And they all look exactly the same. Like, having spent a couple of weeks now in Vegas, all the casinos, the major ones, they all look exactly the same inside. Like, could tell me I'm in any one of them and I would have no idea. Like, I would believe you.
Speaker 1:I think it's because it's such, like, a thing to optimize that everyone arrives at the exact same position. Yeah. That there's, like, no reason to do it differently.
Speaker 2:It's like websites that all look the same.
Speaker 1:They all
Speaker 2:have the same like gradient colored font.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. It's the exact same thing. And, yeah, last time we were there, we were talking about how even the playlist they choose, even like, like all of it is just Hyper optimized. Something can make you spend 1% more money at their scale and the number of people they have, it just becomes so worth it. So Yeah.
Speaker 2:They'll figure it
Speaker 1:out. Yeah. Just like the rate at which they bring you the drinks and like every little little detail. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you get drinks for free when you gamble. I did not know this. And like, I spent more on drinks probably than some people spent gambling. I could have just gambled and gotten free drinks.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it was fun overall?
Speaker 1:Like, it was three days?
Speaker 2:It was. It was fun. Okay. So it should have been two days. Milky and I decided on the last day that last day is totally unnecessary.
Speaker 2:We had seen everybody. We had done everything we wanted to do, and we wanted to be home. So I think Trash was only there for two days. He he knew the the gig. He got there, and then he he left early.
Speaker 2:That was a good call. But it was fun. It was good to see everybody. It was kind of bizarre. Like, the the first day at noon so basically, like, the first thing I did personally was Prime had a panel.
Speaker 2:It was like non gaming like, streaming to non gamers. So it's a panel of, like, all kinds of different stuff. There's a music guy and whatever. So Prime has this panel at noon, and I haven't seen anybody yet. And we all show up to this panel, and it's like seeing everybody for the first time, but we're all we sat, like, right in the front two rows.
Speaker 2:Like, we took up the whole first two rows and we're just, like, right in front of prime. And every time he said something, it was just like, we're all just cheering. It was just it was a bizarre experience to, like all of the dev streamers are right here at one place. We're kinda all seeing each other for the first time. And Primes up there on the stage is like our hero.
Speaker 2:It was just a good time. That was that was interesting. Yeah. It's a it's an eclectic group. Just generally TwitchCon, like, not like re:Invent.
Speaker 2:So if re:Invent is like a lot of people in suits, TwitchCon was like a lot of people In different kinds of suits. Dyed hair. Yeah. Different kind cosplay suits. It was, yeah, it was kind of different in that sense.
Speaker 2:It was fun. It was. I'm glad I did it. Mhmm. I'm gonna take, like, three days to recover physically from all my terrible choices.
Speaker 2:But overall, yeah, happy I did it. Wish you would have been there.
Speaker 1:I think I had less FOMO than I expected. I definitely had it. And I was like,
Speaker 2:Was anyone even posting photos or anything? Like, I realized I didn't post Not anything on
Speaker 1:too many. That's why I don't
Speaker 2:think it was I like
Speaker 1:think with some conferences, it just feels like that's all you see for three days. But this I guess this is a smaller group of people, because it's really just like the people that stream inside the dev world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's like 30 of us. I mean, we went to dinner one night. We took up a whole, like, subway car, metro line car. But there's like
Speaker 1:Are those people that, like, all stream or are they people that are, like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Fans of this? Oh,
Speaker 2:Devs, really? All dev streamers. Yeah. There's like 30? 30.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What the hell?
Speaker 2:It was intense. And, like, we spent a lot of time up there's, like, a partner lounge.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So that would be, like, a way to kinda, like there's, like, eight of us. It was like a smaller, like, okay, just take a breath.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was kind of quiet up there. In fact, the last day, think I'd spent my entire day in the partner lounge. It was like the serverless thing at re:Invent. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2:This is like, gonna set in one spot.
Speaker 1:Just find a home base and then
Speaker 2:just don't move.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it's funny because, Michelle, the one the she runs React Miami. Yeah. She specifically brings up that dynamic and she feels like when a conference gets to a size where people feel the need to find a spot and not move, she feels like that's like a threshold that Mhmm. Where you like got to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So she's like, that's like her one of her like metrics or like of are we for the way that she wants to do these conferences, like, never wanna get to that level. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because it is such a common thing, like, exactly what I felt at re:Invent and like you and TwitchCon. Like, it seems like it just happens all the time. It's just so overwhelming otherwise.
Speaker 2:There wasn't really another place to lounge. Like, it was the only lounge and I felt really bad, like, when we would split off. Like, we'd be with people that, ugh, they're not partner, they can't go. And there's not like another place to just go hang out. It was like you're on your feet in the expo hall or you're in the partner lounge.
Speaker 2:There wasn't really I mean, there was a session, so people would go in and set up sessions and and watch those, which the sessions were I mean, we went to I think I went to two of them, and they were just panels. Maybe all of them weren't panels, but they weren't like conference talks. It was like way more casual, and it's just like your friends on a stage.
Speaker 1:Was that better?
Speaker 2:It was so much better. Yeah. They should take that to tech conferences, panels. Maybe they do. But I I felt like everything at TwitchCon was just a panel of streamers answering questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because I think so React Mind Me is doing that second day, the unconference thing. And I think there's gonna be some stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I just realized how much less like cringey as a format it was. Like, the whole conference talk thing, I don't know, it's just worn out for me. Like
Speaker 1:Yeah. The thing here's the thing, there are like historically amazing talks that I can point to. But it's like one in
Speaker 2:Yeah, that have like changed the dialogue and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like it's like one in 100 maybe at best. So we're just like expecting everyone to like constantly be delivering at that level and it just doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:And and a lot of them are giving the same talks just at the different conferences.
Speaker 1:Right? Exactly. It just
Speaker 2:So then they all end up on YouTube, it's the same one and, like, heard this talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like contrived. Was there anything else besides like so there's the lounge, there's like, the panels, what like, they do other, like, events and stuff?
Speaker 2:So there was like a giant theater where they did some, like, big like, they had the big streamers like XQC and I don't know if Ludwig did anything. We saw Ludwig, like, walking to the expo with a mask on, like, very sneakily. But we were sure it was Ludwig for funny reasons, actually. Rocks was with Rocks. He just came for a day, and he he was 100% sure it was Ludwig for just some hilarious reasons that I don't know if I wanna say on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Like, the shape of his butt? Like, what? Yeah. Literally.
Speaker 2:So it look it did look just like Ludwig, like, I don't know, something about like, I don't if he, like, shaves his arms or something. It definitely looks like Ludwig. He's just like a very clean individual with a giant mask covering everything but his eyeballs. But then Rock said Ludwig's known for having a large backside. And Rock's turned around to check and confirmed it was Ludwig.
Speaker 2:Anyway, they had this theater where they did, like, just like funny events, kind of improv stuff with these major like, the big names in streaming.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to remember the editing Emily or something. What's her name? I don't remember. There's like There's a handful of them that were there.
Speaker 1:I've seen her stuff. Yeah. Yeah. How is the scale of it? Because I know like Reinvent just feels I mean, that feels they literally spent like $100,000,000 on it.
Speaker 2:A $100,000,000 for Reinvent? Wow. Didn't I
Speaker 1:know think so because I was looking at the tickets and I multiplied just the ticket price by the number of people that go, like 50,000 times 2,000.
Speaker 2:Oh, Okay. Simple math.
Speaker 1:That's a 100 that's literally a 100,000,000 and I'm sure like half of those are discounted, whatever. But
Speaker 2:But I I believe it. Yeah. I mean, just like to rent out the entire Venetian like they do for reinvent. I mean, basically, right? It's like the whole Venetian is just taking over.
Speaker 1:Plus they have just like a they like rent out every little space they can find like private events and stuff. So I'm assume obviously, it wasn't at that scale but did it still feel like high end or
Speaker 2:I think I heard 30,000 people. Did I make that up?
Speaker 1:That's a lot.
Speaker 2:It felt very high end. It felt like re:Invent but for like degenerates. I mean, just like the Twitch spin on it. You know what I mean? Like but, like, the huge display when you walk in the convention center was very impressive.
Speaker 2:A lot of people just took pictures in front of it because it was just, like, four stories and just as wide as the convention center. It just giant TV display thing. Yeah. I don't know. It was yeah.
Speaker 2:It felt very well done. Like, they clearly put a lot into
Speaker 1:it. It's funny because it's also technically an Amazon conference. It's just like I know. It's their thing. They just love owning Vegas.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess. Well, I look. Because last year, was in San Diego, they said.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which I would have liked. I've never been in San Diego. Heard it's nice.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, I'll tell you what. I heard from a little birdie that next year, it might be back in San Diego. I don't remember if I was supposed to say that out loud Very
Speaker 1:Probably not. But whatever.
Speaker 2:Probably not. But it came from a source inside,
Speaker 1:if you know
Speaker 2:what I'm saying. Oh. So I'm pretty sure we're not gonna be in Vegas next year. So you might wanna come.
Speaker 1:It's funny because that's enough information for me to know who you got that information from.
Speaker 2:You do. You
Speaker 1:know, don't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know. Oh, that's funny. Okay. Well, we'll keep it private.
Speaker 2:Just us and our podcast listeners, which we know we're not gonna say it. We're not gonna say it out loud.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I would definitely go the Vegas part was a big limiter for me, like the fact that it was in Vegas made it
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I get more difficult. Especially because every single person when I told them I wasn't going, they're like, what do you mean it's only two days? Like, it's not gonna affect anything? And I'm like, it's not two days. It's like the day before where I'm like getting ready and like getting the dog sitter and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:There's a time there and there's a three days of recovery. The recovery. Assuming I don't get sick, which is which is what happened last time.
Speaker 2:So I had COVID right before. I mean, not right before. It's been a couple weeks since I tested negative. Like, not right before. But I felt like going in, I kinda had this superpower that, like, I'm not gonna sick.
Speaker 2:Yeah. My immune system's been through it all. I'm just gonna have secondhand smoke, black lung and feel awful for a few days. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I just wasn't able to tolerate that disruption for going to Vegas. It's funny though, because you know who had more FOMO than me? Liz had more FOMO than me because Really? After re:Invent last year, she's formed like a really fond association with Vegas.
Speaker 1:And she like just It's wants to go funny because it's literal like Vegas literally, I don't think is her thing at all. But Yeah. That week for her was like a really nice week because she would wake up, go to the WeWork, work all day, then like meet up with us, have like a really nice dinner and like do like Yeah. Some like nice thing in the evening and doing that every single day for a week. That was like your whole life.
Speaker 2:Pretty nice. Yeah. It's not not bad. Yeah. It's hard not to enjoy that place.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Even if it's Vegas.
Speaker 1:And like your friends and we were there with friends so it was like, you were you always have people to hang out with so
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think in her head, it was like some kind of high end summer camps type situation, you know.
Speaker 2:So the whole time, I was I was taking the wrong angle. I could have just been trying to get Liz to convince you to come.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was she's
Speaker 2:trying to convince you. But like
Speaker 1:No, no. Yeah, wrong angle.
Speaker 2:She just got the spousal pressure. Oh, man. Next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You normally think the spouse is like trying to stop you
Speaker 2:from doing that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We have this funny relationship where she's like a 100% the hedonist. And if I ever go to her being like, do you think I should do x y z? She's always gonna like overly encourage me to do it. So Yeah. Usually, it's like they like check you but for me it's like the opposite.
Speaker 1:She like enables me.
Speaker 2:Think that's how I am with my wife. I think I'm that role because I just want her to, like, do things that she'll enjoy and have a good time because I know Yeah. She doesn't enjoy a lot of her days. Yeah. So I think I play that role.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I like have to be like, okay, this isn't we can't we can't do it. But next year, potentially.
Speaker 2:Could I just say I chuckled when you said hedonist? Like, I knew what the word meant but I I don't know what the word means. I still don't know.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's hedonist is just like someone that, will just take all of life's pleasures up to, like, to the max. Like, they're really all about enjoying
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Like food and like
Speaker 2:Okay. Those are fun
Speaker 1:like everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fun people to be around.
Speaker 1:I someone once, I saw I read something that was like, I forgot what it was. Someone was I was like looking up dog beds for Zuko or something and someone asked a question where they were like worried that their dog wouldn't be wouldn't figure out how to like get on it and be comfortable in a certain way. And someone was like, don't worry about that because dogs are the ultimate hedonist and that line has been stuck in my head because it's so true, like, there's no sense in them to be like, I should limit my pleasure. Yeah. Like, if there's a way to be comfortable, they're gonna go and do it, they're gonna do it as much as possible.
Speaker 1:If there's food,
Speaker 2:they're gonna go
Speaker 1:eat it as much as possible. Yeah. Like like Zuko, when the door to our bedroom's open, he goes on our bed and he sleeps there because that is the most comfortable spot in the whole house. Like, he doesn't think like anything. He's always just trying to maximize his his happiness and his pleasure every single second.
Speaker 1:And it's like kind of inspiring in a way, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It is. Like, I feel like that's kind of like vacation mode for some people. Like, do feel that way on vacation. Like, I'm gonna maximize.
Speaker 2:Like, we're gonna just enjoy this. But to not do that every day. Yeah, I definitely don't. I don't think that way all the time. And you feel like, well, I can't.
Speaker 2:I have to be a responsible adult. But maybe not. Maybe some people just figured it out and they're just living life that way, like a dog.
Speaker 1:There's a Ricky Gervais bit where he's talking about how he, like, gives his cat all these treats and he's, like, so good to his cat and people are like, you're gonna spoil the cat. And he's always he's just like, who cares? Like, it's a cat. Like, what oh, no. The cat's spoiled.
Speaker 1:Like, what's gonna happen? Like, it's not like trying to have a career or anything, you know?
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. There's no gold It's to not try to a real job. It's gonna just live off of your treats forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's like, who cares if you spoil the cat? It's a really good point.
Speaker 2:It is a good point. There's another word I didn't know that I just remembered. I'm glad I looked it up before we got on in case it came up. Did you see that Theo's tweet about the React leak?
Speaker 1:The taint.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I didn't know what that word meant. And I thought it was serious. I'm glad I didn't get on here and like ask you like, so what's the deal with React taint? I've never heard of this.
Speaker 1:No. It is okay. This is a funny Oh,
Speaker 2:is serious? Oh, damn it.
Speaker 1:Okay. Here's what's really, really funny about this. Okay? What does everyone love shitting on? Everyone loves shitting on Kubernetes.
Speaker 1:React.
Speaker 2:Oh, Kubernetes. Okay.
Speaker 1:Everyone is always talking shit about Kubernetes. Everyone's like It's true. Here like, everyone's talking about it all the time. As though they know what the hell it is. And this topic is a great topic because it proves that everyone that's talking about Kubernetes does not know anything about it because the word taint was in Kubernetes.
Speaker 1:Doesn't come from there but
Speaker 2:I mean, use it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, I mean, the root const is like, we've all heard the word tainted, like, oh no, this was tainted. Yeah. Know? That word,
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's used in a bunch of places like Kubernetes is one, like Pearl's another place where it shows up. But everyone is reacting to it like I I had someone I saw some messages today where they were like, what's wrong with Vercell? Like, are they trying to, like, bait people or are they trying to, like, create, like, some kind of, like, controversy by using this word? I'm like, it's just a normal it's also a normal
Speaker 2:It is a normal word. And I wouldn't have thought it wasn't a normal word until I looked at the replies of that tweet. And people are like, glad I looked it up on Urban Dictionary. And then I looked it up on Urban Dictionary, and it has another meaning outside of the meaning that I knew. So it's a real thing.
Speaker 2:You're telling me that's a real that's a real tweet?
Speaker 1:Yes. It's a 100% real. Oh. Because taint is the correct word for something like What a
Speaker 2:roller coaster.
Speaker 1:You mark it as like, be careful with
Speaker 2:this thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But listen. Awesome. I am surprised that you had to look it up on Urban Dictionary. This word has never come across.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know the meaning of taint, like the real the real meaning of it.
Speaker 1:No. I've never heard of it slang.
Speaker 2:No. Never heard that in my life.
Speaker 1:That's odd to me. Feel like that that's a
Speaker 2:common one?
Speaker 1:I I feel like that's like the first, like, dirty ish word I ever learned,
Speaker 2:you know. Are you serious? It's old? It's like a old Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not like a Gen Z thing. No. No. It's been Oh. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow. Old. It's like it's like before us even, I think.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm guessing yeah. I don't even really understand. I feel like the thing that it describes is like a noun, and taint seems more like an a verb. I don't know. I it doesn't even make sense for that to be slang for that Yeah.
Speaker 2:In my mind. And I'm not gonna I'm just not gonna say it on the back of people can look it up if they wanna look it just feels weird.
Speaker 1:It's weird because it's a noun and a verb. That's what's weird
Speaker 2:about it. Oh, taint is a noun too. Yeah. Can apply
Speaker 1:They taint to something.
Speaker 2:Okay. I see.
Speaker 1:Or you can taint something.
Speaker 2:Okay. I I don't really get how that became slang for the same of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's appropriate. I think like it it like sounds exactly right
Speaker 2:to Like it's a it's it like taints the human I'm I'm not stop.
Speaker 1:No. It's it's just like the right vibe. I'm I'm not gonna put it into words words but words words but words. I
Speaker 2:just can't believe that that tweet in the end, that tweet was actually real.
Speaker 1:Oh,
Speaker 2:yeah. I I thought it was real at first. Then I felt embarrassed that I thought it was real because I thought it was not real and it was a joke. And now I'm learning it in fact is real. And I'm embarrassed again.
Speaker 2:Just a lot of embarrassing things going on right now.
Speaker 1:Did you actually read what the API does?
Speaker 2:No. I did not. I just saw Theo's tweet. That's all
Speaker 1:I saying. It's kind of interesting because stepping back and like looking at the positioning, they posted an article on, hey, I really care about security. You should care about security too. So here's like a bunch of here's a whole article talking components and security concerns that you need to be you need to consider. So because they premised it with that like, hey, we're here to talk about security, it came across like, here are some good solutions for these problems.
Speaker 1:But it completely sidestepped the idea that we only had to invent these solutions because
Speaker 2:of
Speaker 1:how React server components work. It's like these are new problems that kind of showed up Yep. Under the new model. But it was positioned like, hey, like we care about security. But it's like kind of like you created security problems and now you have to care about security.
Speaker 2:We have to cover our tracks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think and I think that the APIs that came up with are fine, I think that article like makes sense and I think it's a decent solution but damn, it is it is I was like looking through and I was like, wow, this is like complicated.
Speaker 2:Oh, really? It's do you understand it where you could explain?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean the the rough idea is you have the magic that they added was, basically auto capturing state so that you can it feels like you're triggering a server function from the client, right? Like, can write a function on the server, and the client can trigger it. But HTTP is a stateless protocol. So any arguments that need to go into that function need to be sent down to the client first and echoed back up.
Speaker 1:If you have a variable outside the function and the function uses it, like you can't just run the function without that variable that's outside of it, So what React does is it'll capture all the context needed and like serialize it down and then send it back up. So they they like encrypt that now. So like the payload that comes down is like junk and you send it back up and gets encrypted. But it's that plus the idea that you're like passing, something that's like a server only client, but that might have that might have like a child that's a client component, you might pass in a user object and the user object might have a password field and then suddenly a So has a password there's like all these scenarios that that come up and they talk about some stuff that they do to automatically mitigate it like that encryption one is one example, but then nothing really stops you from accidentally passing through something you weren't Yeah. Supposed So they have this whole taint API now and this is like, I wouldn't say this is the primary way to do this, but this is like kinda like a good guardrail system where you can say, process dot env, I'm gonna taint that object.
Speaker 1:So if you ever write code that tries to pass that down or anything in it down it'll throw an error. But that only works for stuff that's passed by reference, right? So now if you like wanna taint a specific string, that's like, you can't, you have to like compare the unique value of the string. Again, like very comp like it works as a solution, but again, it's one of those things where I'm like, if you if you've gotten to this level of complexity and like dealing with this level of problem, I feel like the underlying design prioritized the wrong things. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like the auto capture stuff is cool, but now you have all these like other things that are opens up and other things you have to concern yourself with. Yep. I feel like requiring people to be a little bit more explicit in a bunch of places to avoid this entire class of problems, I think that's what I would have leaned towards. Yeah. But yeah, so that that that was the article and it kinda goes through that in more depth.
Speaker 1:It's it's pretty easy to understand. When I said it's complicated, didn't mean that it was hard to understand. Just meant that, like, there's so many new things you have to think about. Now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And to like be a good React engineer, you now have like a whole set of new gotchas and tricks and awareness that you're gonna have to teach people. Yep. People will learn it, it's not crazy hard. It just definitely feels like stuff continues to get more complicated and I don't know what we got from it really. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like tRPC already lets you feel like you're calling the server from the client and this is maybe like a 10% improvement in terms of API with like a whole set of new problems.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Did tRPC just sort of like fade out a bit with the whole RSC movement? Like, does it come into play at all with the new Well,
Speaker 1:I think that's that's the question. Right? So I think the reason they launched this launch, they released this article is because they, merged server actions into React Canary. This is like a whole I just said a lot of words there and it's very confusing. What does emerging into React canary mean?
Speaker 1:You would think, you hear the word canary and you're like, that means it's prototype, bleeding edge, not for production.
Speaker 2:Actually, year is
Speaker 1:Their definition of canary is like, it's for production for frameworks to adopt. So they merged server actions and I was at people that like I've talked to a lot of people that don't like this model. Like, they don't believe it's stable when it's in Canary, which I get. Next. Js implementation of server actions can be considered stable or production ready.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But this is now an all like a direct alternative to gRPC, so you can like not use gRPC now. So I think that's kind of why if you look at their numbers, I'm sure it didn't like fade at all. I'm sure that like gRPC is probably like continuing to grow like
Speaker 2:It's more from the Discord standpoint.
Speaker 1:I just feel like just hasn't been talked about as much because there's a question of, like, is this can does this continue to be needed? Yeah. And to what degree?
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:I'm not I'm not super sure.
Speaker 2:Such a meteoric rise. Like, I feel like tRPC blew up so fast. And then and then, yeah, all the RSC stuff, all of the murkiness around Next. Js roadmap and all that Yeah. Sort of like quieted the the conversation a bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a challenge when you build on top of and like obviously, tRPC is not built on top of Next. Js but it was like a common way that people use it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like one day it's happened to Blitz also. Remember Blitz. Js. I was like built on top of Next.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's just hard to
Speaker 2:They could just build that thing
Speaker 1:at some Or they can cannibalize you. Yeah. Exactly. So it's It's Shopify.
Speaker 2:Don't build Shopify apps and become successful. That's what I hear.
Speaker 1:They'll just build it themselves.
Speaker 2:Can I can I bring up a topic that's that's related to the and React and all this stuff that I don't know how to talk about this? I don't know how to have this conversation, but I I just so badly wanna get some thoughts out. I feel like I I've said a lot of negative things about the Vercel camp to the point that like well, they're so they're having NextJSConf. And, like, everybody's going. Everyone that was just at TwitchCon is like, I'll see you in a couple weeks in San Francisco.
Speaker 2:And that feels bad. It feels bad to be like, I'm not going to Next. Js Conf. There's no way I'd ever go to next.jsconf because I'm like an enemy of next.js and Vercel. And I don't wanna be an enemy of anybody.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how to have this conversation because it feels weird. Like, I wouldn't go if they invited me because I'm not gonna travel twice in two weeks. My wife would kill me. I would go in a perfect world where I'm a hedonist and I just maximize pleasure.
Speaker 2:But, like, I don't I don't wanna be like a I've made some, like, negative comments about React even. Like, I just realized, like, I have, like, I have, like, enemies in tech, and I don't like it. I don't wanna have enemies. This is a peace offering.
Speaker 1:I think that you can look at it another way, which is your sense around that is maybe magnified because you haven't met these people in person. Yeah. I think if you feel that way, I should feel that way times two maybe?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you should. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I don't think I I would have an issue going to next JSConf. Like
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, you go to React Miami. So, I mean, you don't have
Speaker 1:a total issue with React. And and I, like, talk to people that work at Vercel. Like, it to me, it's just kind of like, there is some level of awkwardness because we genuinely believe certain things and we genuinely push certain ideas forward. Yeah. But if you step back, can also recognize like, there is just this game and you the game forces us to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And we can, like, all participate in it but still recognize that we're all just, like, players in it and it doesn't
Speaker 2:have to Yeah. No. That makes sense. Yeah. And as you said that, like, you talk to people at Vercel.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people I love at Vercel. I've got, like, what I would consider friends for sure that work at Vercel. And I forget sometimes that I've, like, I don't know, publicly just said a lot of, like, not mean things about Vercel, but just, like, anytime somebody takes themselves so seriously. And I feel like the Vercel brand, not any one individual, but like the brand is so serious. It is so, like, self important or something.
Speaker 2:Anytime I see that in anybody or anything, I just do wanna poke at it.
Speaker 1:Like, I just wanna be like, pop the bubble. Track set. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So I do feel like I've said a lot of that kind of stuff. But then I'm I remember like, oh, he works at Risa. I love him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We're I feel like we're close. Or I'm like, I'm on the same team, but then I don't wanna be like at the company level. Yeah. Maybe I'm blowing it up in my own mind.
Speaker 2:I'm like making this a bigger
Speaker 1:Probably is no. I I get the feeling because I I felt the same thing. I was like, would I go to something like NextConf? It'd be awkward. And to some degree, maybe a little bit.
Speaker 1:But I I just told myself it was probably just inflated in my head. The company that I think I have, maybe the most positive version of this relationship with is Clerk because I'm just like brutally making fun of for everything that they do. But I don't think anyone is like upset with me or anything.
Speaker 2:No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I've I've like, with Jeff and and not Dom's there.
Speaker 2:Like, I feel like I have a lot of people I really enjoy at Clerk. Well, Deb's there. I mean, there's yeah. They're they just keep hiring everybody. So more and more of my friends are gonna work at Clerk.
Speaker 2:But I do feel like I've said a lot of, like, I don't know, just, like, making fun of their marketing strategies and everything else. Just like Yeah. They are everywhere. And I'm gonna stop now because I don't wanna say more. What are things that are but, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:I love say that just say that the tech conference industry is being single handedly held up by Clerk.
Speaker 2:It really is. They're they're on top of it. No. That's a good point. So that's a much lighthearted a more lighthearted version of the Vercel thing.
Speaker 2:I think, like, even Guillermo I feel like I've poked at Guillermo a lot. I look up to Guillermo so much. He's, like, embodies so many things that I wish I were, like how regimented he is and just how particular. And I I personally am a huge fan of, like, high quality and, like, perfectionism and, like, all these things. It's a lot of the same traits.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's why I do it. Maybe it's like Guillermo is the better version of me, and I just I poke at him because I know he's reached levels I'll never reach. Maybe that's it. This is gonna
Speaker 1:be I don't feel that way.
Speaker 2:I don't
Speaker 1:think he's a better version of you. I definitely see the similarities.
Speaker 2:But You know what I'm saying? Like, I just realized, like, oh my god. This is on the the middle of I'm learning it as I'm saying these words that, like, I'm super into, like, I'm the OCPD. Like, everything has to be just right, and that's totally Vercel. Why is my alarm going on?
Speaker 1:Well, so real quick. I think here's what I think about that. I think that people believe in these like stereotypes or caricatures and not in a negative way, like even the positive ones. And they kind of overly emulate that to get the thing that they want. And that's what I don't like about some of the Vercel stuff.
Speaker 1:I feel like they, they're kind of an exaggeration of a concept and believe that to be really obsessed with quality, to be really obsessed with x y and z things, you're someone that's like so serious all the time and like so serious about everything. Yeah. But it kind of denies this reality of, like, you can really care about those stuff and be obsessive to, like, an annoying degree and also you can be, like, a different type of personality, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So to me, whenever I see someone lined up so perfectly with, like, a stereotype that's in the world that we recognize, I just feel like they're kind of faking it to some degree. They're like kind of, you know, if I act like that, then this other thing
Speaker 2:Then this will be yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:I I Yeah. So that's kind of what that's kind of what I feel like, like, there's like a, I mean, like a stupid the stupidest version of this is, the Theranos thing with, the the Steve Jobs like turtleneck and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. Yeah yeah, she
Speaker 1:did Just playing a character, right? Uh-huh. And that's like the most extreme version of it where it was like, so backwards. Yeah. But we all do this to some degree where we have like some identity that we try to emulate and hope that we somehow stumble upon the positive traits from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Interesting. Now I'm just my my mind is racing over trying to think of who I'm trying to emulate or what I'm trying to
Speaker 1:be. I think I think the thing you described is accurate like this the thing you described, like you're the thing you're emulating is Guillermo because Guillermo's perfectly emulating that thing. But the point is everyone is emulating. No one is it's like, there's a there's a part of it that's doing but there's a part of it that's like acting.
Speaker 2:Okay. Oh, man. You've got you've just got me in my head so much right now. I'm just like, you said the word identity and I remembered, like, I don't know what my identity is. I'm just like You don't have
Speaker 1:to The point is you don't have to have one. And I think it's
Speaker 2:freeing Oh, that's to the point. Is That's a nice thought.
Speaker 1:It's very natural to crave an identity and try to, like, be a thing. But I think the actual work is figuring out how to live without one.
Speaker 2:But like you okay. What I'm trying to get at here and if you had something really important you would talk about in the next eight minutes
Speaker 1:No. We can get in. Okay.
Speaker 2:Because I just I I don't wanna get into a therapy session. I felt like we kinda got away from that and I wasn't like just constantly asking
Speaker 1:Well, we can bring it back. You know, we gotta do it all.
Speaker 2:Okay. We're bringing it Well, I just got back from TwitchCon, and it's like seeing people who have very strong personalities and just very like they know who they are in life, and you're that way. Everything you say, I feel like it lines up. It's like, of course, Dax would say that. Like, we've talked about they'd be so easy to train like an AI Dax because, like, you just get, like, a 100 of your tweets and it would nail you to the tee.
Speaker 2:Like, you could just set that thing on autopilot. But, like, I don't know. I I don't know. This whole TwitchCon thing was like, when I got there, I realized, oh, I came to TwitchCon, and I don't know if I ever wanna stream or talk about tech again. Like, I just don't know if I care about this stuff, but I wanted to come and see all my friends.
Speaker 2:Like, I've made all these friends in this space, and I was very excited to meet them all. But then I realized, like, the whole thing of TwitchCon is, like, we're all streamers. And it's like, don't know. Am I a streamer? I don't I don't know if I wanna be.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, what do I wanna be? And then it's like, I've talked about not wanting to do content at all maybe anymore. I don't know. And then I I don't know. It's just like, do I not need to know?
Speaker 2:I don't need to know what my personality is or what I care about.
Speaker 1:I I don't think you need to have an identity that you can apply a very clear label to. I think some people do have because with me, I've said this all the time, whenever I take a personality test, it feels like the most accurate thing on the planet because I have a very, like, identifiable thing. But it's just like a random thing. I don't think that's that's the part that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that the thing I am or the thing that people are has like a clear label on it.
Speaker 1:I do think the thing you have to figure out is like, if you feel lost to some degree on like what Yeah. You're striving towards. I think that probably is like a real concern. I think I think that gets pointed out when you're around people that have, like, such a clear identity. But the identity part's not the part that matters.
Speaker 2:Okay. So identity is not the thing that matters, but what I'm doing with my time does matter. And just trying to figure out, like, I really enjoy I've enjoyed streaming. Like, I have a lot of fun the moment I'm doing it. And I feel like I could do this every day, and it's it's I love it.
Speaker 2:But I don't like, I constantly then, like, after a month, I ask myself, like, why am I doing this? Like, what am I trying to get out of this? And I have no answers. Like, I can't think of a single reason. Don't I even know why I do a podcast.
Speaker 2:Like, honestly, I don't know, like, I don't know why I've done anything that you'd put into, like, the content bucket. Like, I don't have any, like, aspirations toward it making money. I just can't imagine ever making more money doing content than I could just make if I didn't ever turn a camera on because I feel like I can make more money that way. So it's not money, and it's not like I've already made all the friends I wanna make. I guess the friendships I thought about that at TwitchCon.
Speaker 2:Like, had I not ever streamed, I wouldn't have gotten to know any of these people. I would have no reason to. And I'm very thankful for the group of friends that I feel like online I've I've made. So maybe that's all it was. It was just the friends we made along the way.
Speaker 2:That's like a saying, isn't it?
Speaker 1:There you go. You figured it
Speaker 2:Okay. All That actually helps me a lot.
Speaker 1:I think it's a move that to like a more even like selfish place. It's, to me, it's just about like creating opportunity. I don't know if and when I say that people might think like, oh, a career opportunity. Yeah. But also just like any kind of opportunity like Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether it's to make friends or to like
Speaker 2:Have experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The more stuff you have out there, the more stuff just comes into your life. I think, I mean, a really great example of this is, that podcast where we talked about how we're, gonna pivot Boomi and maybe work on this new thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I had so many people reach out to me after that about being like, I want this or here's what I thought about or here's like, you know, and that's really motivating and that's amazing and I would have never had that before. Anytime in the past when I wanted to when I had an idea, the biggest barrier was, oh, the world is just gonna ignore this idea. How do I like push past that? But now, like having like all these people reach out to me, it's because, you know, I've been able to put myself out there and allow for that kind of thing to happen. So, yeah, I also am not like trying to make this directly my work but for the same reasons as you, like, it's just not Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, I have other ways that to make money that one, I enjoy more and two are, I think, more lucrative. But yeah. This is like a like a turbocharger for all the other stuff, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Increases your your opportunity set in life. It just I I do there I think it was Alex Rey told me about somebody who wrote about friend catchers. Have you heard of that concept? Have we ever talked about that?
Speaker 1:No. But, I mean, that sounds exactly what this is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like if you don't ever put out anything in the world, if you're not publicly putting yourself out there, then you're missing this opportunity to just, like, find other people like you or people who resonate with you that, like, you're putting out every time you create something, you're putting out these friend catchers that, like, you're gonna have people that you get connected to in life that you just wouldn't have otherwise. And that makes sense. I spent a long time, ten years of my career not doing anything publicly.
Speaker 1:Same.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, met nobody. I mean, basically, just whoever you worked with directly. So I I I see the the appeal of all that. I guess it just feels like don't I know. It's just like when I see the consistency, whether it's you or Prime, like Prime is just such a, like, a personality.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because that that's gonna be his job. Like, that is the thing that Yeah. He's meant to do full time all the time and take that to whatever extreme and ceiling there is for that. But
Speaker 2:And I guess it's okay to just accept that, like, it's not my job. I'm just like I've had some fun and it doesn't mean I have to stop doing this stuff if I don't think it'll ever be my job. I can still do it. I just have a different expectation around what it is. I'm not gonna have a strong personality.
Speaker 1:And you still it's still some it's still something you wanna get better at and, like, continue to get better at and whatever. But
Speaker 2:It is. Yeah. Because it's fun. And anything I do, you you wanna do the best
Speaker 1:you can. It's the same thing as, like, jujitsu. Like, you're not trying to, like, one, become a world champion. I was
Speaker 2:I literally wanna become a world champion, but okay. That's okay. Have I never said that out loud? I really do. I wanna, like, win masters at some point.
Speaker 1:Okay. That's the goal.
Speaker 2:I mean, at my belt. It's always at your own belt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I always forget that it's
Speaker 2:at your belt something. And your Yeah. And your age and your And your and your size. Yeah. There's tons of world champions.
Speaker 2:It's still extremely hard. You have to win like 10 matches in a single day. But I'm gonna do it someday.
Speaker 1:Okay. Wait. Wait. To rephrase it, are you trying to make it your career or you're trying to make money from it?
Speaker 2:No. Not my career. I mean, I'll never make a dime from it.
Speaker 1:But But I don't think you have those feelings around it. Like, why am I doing it?
Speaker 2:No. That's true. I don't. When I think about jujitsu, I know why I'm doing it. It's like, I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 2:The physical activity, it's good for my health. Well, I don't know. There's better better things for your health than jujitsu because you can get really hurt. But I yeah. That's a great that's a great point.
Speaker 2:If I could just feel that way about never even know how to label all this. Is it content? Is it just is that the word? If I could feel that way about extracurricular activities in tech. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, there's my work and then there's all of this stuff. If I could feel that way the way I do about jujitsu, I'd be really happy.
Speaker 1:So me and Liz were talking about this the other day where she feels like she has all these things that she's interested in but doesn't have a way to express them. And she's like, she's listening to Steve Jobs, the Walter Isaacson book. And she she brought up how he was interested in so many things like technology, architecture, art, aesthetics, like all these wide ranges of things that he was obsessed with. And he had this from perception, he he was lucky that he had this the thing he was doing could draw all of that. Like, the Apple stores feed like the architecture stuff.
Speaker 1:Obviously, the products feed the aesthetic stuff, like the art and the tech and all. Like he he saw like he's so lucky that he had one thing that pulled everything. Yeah. But I think that if you have a thing that you're able to really focus on, it always just pulls all your interests into it. So the only thing that is missing is like having like the thing that you channel everything through.
Speaker 1:Because we're talking about this content stuff and for me, it's an interest of mine. Like I find it interesting to do, I wanna get better at it, I find it fun. Mhmm. But I have a thing draws that can, like, draw that into, right? Like, I can channel that into SSE marketing, that kind of
Speaker 2:like pulls
Speaker 1:that up.
Speaker 2:You do You have that kind of like central thesis that I feel like everything runs through online.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's funny because the way it feels is and I've always experienced this through my whole career. It feels like I randomly got interested in this thing and like, woah, what a weird coincidence. Like, I happen to need that thing at my work or whatever. And like, it literally feels like like the week after I discovered it, I also just randomly happen to need it.
Speaker 1:But what's actually happening is I'm like Yeah. Forcing it in there because it is a genuine interest and it does make sense to do. But yeah, it always feels that way. It always feels like a miracle that that my random interest shows up at work. But just because I have consistent work that I'm interested in, so it'll draw everything in there.
Speaker 2:So I said all that and, like, I actually am gonna stream. Like, I I wanna stream more than ever. Maybe it's just because at TwitchCon. Like, I'm I'm gonna be doing this stuff still, and I'm I'm gonna think about everything we just talked about. But I don't have to have an identity.
Speaker 2:That's okay. Maybe I won't even do tech stuff. I've I've talked about this a lot, like, not doing tech. I don't know. Like, what is a variety streamer?
Speaker 2:Can I just be a variety streamer? It doesn't matter what I stream. I can just talk and do whatever I want. Maybe I'll do that.
Speaker 1:But, like, look, you're already putting a label on it. What the hell is a variety streamer? It doesn't matter. Just do whatever you want. I just heard the word.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. That's true. Just do whatever you want. Okay.
Speaker 2:Let let people decide what category it is. It doesn't have to fit into some box for me.
Speaker 1:I'm actually gonna start streaming again too. Like realized the other day I definitely felt more in sync with a bunch of stuff. And I have a hard time putting it into words but I felt like stuff just like clicked better when I like was constantly talking to people every day.
Speaker 2:It's a whole and it's a whole schedule. It's a whole thing that it kinda like introduces into my work that's nice, a structure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. That yeah, that is nice and especially like working on SST, like I do remember every day I would stream, there'd be someone that would like talk to me about it in some way.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that was always that that's like it gives me a sense of something that I think is useful.
Speaker 2:Okay. No. I have to get on another call and I have to pee.
Speaker 1:So it's
Speaker 2:a double whammy
Speaker 1:of
Speaker 2:of hard stopping.
Speaker 1:Alright.
Speaker 2:I I was really thinking too. I wish we could, like, start, like, say bye and then keep talking for a while and just let it record. There's another podcast that does that. Totally unrelated to tech.
Speaker 1:But Yeah. I'm gonna try that. That's funny.
Speaker 2:I think that it we always have such good conversation after we hit stop. I feel like it's never on the podcast. Yeah. Oh, also, I wanna say Jason came up to me. He's a listener of the podcast.
Speaker 2:Came up to me at TwitchCon. That was really cool because, as I said in person, it's it's hard to know if anyone listens. And he said, yeah. You say that on the podcast all the time too. Like, sounds like me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Say the same things all the time. K. Thank you, Jason,
Speaker 1:for coming up. That was so
Speaker 2:cool. Okay. I'm gonna go. Have to pee.
Speaker 1:Bye. See you. Bye bye.
Speaker 2:See you next.
