Terraform Licensing, Academic Research, Walking Backwards, and Google vs AI
Oh. Hey, that's nice. It's nice to be heard.
Speaker 2:Alright. So I if I hit stream in OBS Mhmm. That doesn't make me go live. I have to separately go create a broadcast.
Speaker 1:Like on Twitch, if you hit start streaming, it actually, like OBS, it actually starts the stream on Twitch. But you're saying it doesn't on Twitter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't. So I have to go and create a broadcast which I just did and now I can tweet it. This is gonna be our routine, I guess.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm just on your Twitter trying to see it and I just saw your your errors tweet. This is good. And then I saw the part where you'll come to my house and slap me if I'm a GoLink dev. Yeah. Only GoLink dev.
Speaker 3:You know what's funny?
Speaker 2:I wrote that and I was like, I know some GoDev is gonna say something. I'm like, very prepared for it. And a bunch of people replied being like, know what, I was gonna say something. So was I like, good thing I put that in there. Otherwise, I would have gotten annoyed.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. It's another one of those big big posts. You wrote a bunch in one post.
Speaker 2:Love it. I've been doing that more. Initially, I was like, if I write something long, no one's ever gonna read it. But I found the opposite. I feel like those I've had good experience with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know if Twitter is doing something where it like is actively promoting longer stuff.
Speaker 1:Isn't it I I remember seeing something at some point in the last few weeks where it was like, how much time you spend looking at the tweet is, like, boost engagement. Oh. If they have to read a really long one, they're looking at it a long time, presumably.
Speaker 2:That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I still try to stick to the format where like it's broken up into bite sized chunks because I think that just is like a good way to write. Even before I was on Twitter and I even as someone I was writing emails, I'd always write in that way. Yeah. So I feel like when I would write like big paragraphs, it would just be
Speaker 1:One big paragraph?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I could just see them like skimming past it or like
Speaker 1:Can humans even read a long paragraph anymore? Like, is that a thing that we're capable of? Have we evolved out of it? You know I mean? Blog posts, I guess, have long paragraphs.
Speaker 1:But are blogs just are they on a trend to zero? Is that how it works or is it gonna always have a place?
Speaker 2:I've always been I've always been a skimmer. I feel like even when I read books, it's not that I would like literally skim and skip stuff, like I I kind of read in this way where I like skim over everything in a page quickly then like skim it again, kind of like it's like I am kind like reading in order but I'm like, I kind of do it fast as one phase and I do it like a little bit more focused in this as a second phase. I've always kind of read them that way.
Speaker 1:So I the way I read and this is why I don't read blog posts anymore, I'm reading word for word until, like, I get distracted or I think of something else and then I have to go back to, like, the last sentence. And, like, I cons I'm such a slow reader. Like, I constantly have to go back and reread because I realized, like, I wasn't actually paying attention. And if I wasn't paying attention, I have like, I gotta read it again. So I can't skim, I guess.
Speaker 1:I have no skimmer.
Speaker 2:No skimming bone. Skim I'm imagining you with your with your, like, finger on the screen of your computer and
Speaker 1:your monitor, like, follow the other words. Have to do it that way. Yeah. Keep my focus.
Speaker 2:I I do wonder about this. I don't think I I think with a lot of things, there's, like, always some moral panic over new technology, whatever it is, and it's usually kinda stupid.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't even think it's bad if we stop having attention spans. I don't know. It's just the way we're evolving. But go ahead.
Speaker 2:I I get a little worried about it because the flip side is people always point to like, there's some like old news article that's like, books are gonna like ruin your children. It's just
Speaker 1:it's something like that where
Speaker 2:there's a panic around the concept of books. But in the past year and I've like pulled this back a bit on my recovering, I feel like I did go down a path where I was like very much eroding my ability to focus
Speaker 1:for a while. Oh yeah, we've talked I about think I did too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. And there there's like all kind and I'm thinking like, this is happening to me as I'm like an adult and this stuff is showing up in my life now and it's impacting me and I'm imagining like, I'm seeing all this stuff on the thing they do on TikTok where they have to show you two things, they can't just show you one thing, they have to show you like the thing and then like the subway surfer thing at the bottom so you can like Yeah.
Speaker 1:See, it'll actually stick around and pay attention.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'm like and I'm like that I don't know if that's good. And and I think it just I've just noticed I was developing a lot of compulsive behaviors where I would just do stuff without even thinking about it and it was all reflexive. Like, I would open my phone and my finger will automatically hit a certain thing and suddenly I would be somewhere and I'll be like, why did I get here?
Speaker 1:And if you need to use your phone for something, there's so many times like I need to look something up or I need to like pull up maps or something and I end up in some other like, I'm in Twitter and it's like, how did I even I I had something I needed to do and I don't even remember what it was. That does feel bad, I guess. Like, we're a bunch of zombies.
Speaker 2:I mean, you have kids so you can like I imagine myself like getting distracted and like, if I have children, I like forget about them for like thirty minutes, I'm like, oh shit. You know, I feel like that kind of stuff can't, but you can't let that kind of stuff happen but, yeah, I found this app that it just delays the opening of the app you're trying to open. So like, if I try to open Twitter, it like delays it by twenty seconds, it like shows me a loading screen.
Speaker 1:On the web?
Speaker 2:And that like No, on my phone.
Speaker 1:On iOS? That's possible.
Speaker 2:It will It's so clever because, iOS launched this like API for, like, app actions or, like, automations or something. You set up an automation where whenever this app opens, let this other app handle it. And that app will show you a loading screen for twenty seconds and then let you
Speaker 1:What is it called? I want it. That's so brilliant. I was thinking this was some Android thing and then I was like, no, I know you got an iPhone.
Speaker 2:There's I I saw it on a Twitter ad, ironically. It's I'm looking at the splash screen. I remember. I I think it's called like one second or something. It's something like that.
Speaker 1:One second.
Speaker 2:I literally oh, here we go. It's called okay, I opened the app, how do I figure out the app name? Oh, it's called One Sec. One It's called One Sec.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. This is awesome. It's a
Speaker 2:little bit annoying to set up because, you know, iOS doesn't let you do this directly so it's to kinda like, for each app you wanna trigger this on Yeah. You do do that.
Speaker 1:But this has worked for you. Like it's helped you not just impulsively open stuff.
Speaker 2:It's killed the compulse compulsive behavior. Now whenever I open it, I like am doing it very intentionally and I know what I'm doing. It's and it and it like tracks how much it reduces your behavior and all that, so it's definitely rewarding in that way. The reason I know this works is I a long time ago, I had the same habit with Reddit where whenever my brain would go blank, my reflex would just be to go on my browser and just type Reddit and that's something I'd like be on Reddit and I was like, why did I get here? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there was a Chrome extension that just delayed the opening and that just killed that habit for me entirely.
Speaker 1:It's funny that just a little bit of friction is enough. I mean, that's the whole like Atomic Habits thing. Like, I mean, there's at least part of the Atomic Habits book is is about that. Like, putting friction between bad habits and you and then, like, reducing friction between you and good habits. Is that one of the 10 books you've read?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:No. I actually haven't read that one,
Speaker 1:but I
Speaker 2:know it's it's super popular.
Speaker 1:Has Liz read it and you've got the you got the gist of it?
Speaker 2:I don't think she's read it either, but I think Alan's read it and that's that's like I feel like I have all the people in my life. They have, like, categories
Speaker 1:of Yeah. Things that we
Speaker 2:Alan is definitely, like, the life hacking category Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Person.
Speaker 2:So he always summarizes those things for me.
Speaker 1:Does Alan okay. So I feel like I've gotten into life hacking a little bit. Mostly because I'm I'm feeling the age thing. We've talked about it a lot on the podcast.
Speaker 2:So we need to rehash. You're definitely in that category too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, I'm doing the sauna. I'm doing the the cold plunging. Is that life hacking? And does Alan do those things?
Speaker 2:He definitely a 100%. Like, you and like, all this stuff that you listed Yeah. I'm sure he saw that list and just was like, I'm he probably just went and tried to, like, buy a bunch of that stuff as soon as he saw
Speaker 1:it. Yeah. I I don't know. Like, I don't think I'm, like, into life hacks, but I guess that's kinda it's like sophisticated life hacks. It's like I don't When someone like Wim Hof tells you to, like, get cold exposure, you feel like he's like a a shaman or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It feels spiritual. It doesn't feel like an airport book that's like, here's how to improve your whatever relationships. I don't know. What do they what do they try and sell you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know I know what mean. It's it's like it's it's more tangible. There's like and I I it's like I actually believe in a lot of that stuff. Like, a lot of stuff is really effective.
Speaker 1:Well, Most of it, there's science. I mean, like, I mostly don't do stuff unless there's your favorite of
Speaker 2:mine. There's science.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's, like, papers. There's, like, peer reviewed papers. It's helping. I don't like to do things if I don't know there's been some study that has proven some non placebo effect. Okay?
Speaker 1:I only do things like that.
Speaker 2:I have a take on this. Uh-oh. And
Speaker 1:You're gonna shatter my worldview.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. Sort of. I think I I think I, like, disagree with that concept. So here here's a Of science?
Speaker 1:Oh, you disagree with science. Okay. Go ahead, Dax.
Speaker 2:It's not the concept of science. I think I disagree with the vast majority of academic research. So I'll give you so I was talking to Liz. So Liz so for background, so Liz spent, the first part of her career in academic research and she's described to me so much about those environments and I've heard like beyond just from her, like so much about how those environments work. That it just makes me like lose faith in a lot of it because it's kind of broken fundamentally.
Speaker 2:I think there's different categories of things. I think there's certain fields that well, the the general idea of it is most academic research is kind of b s. You can kind of make up whatever thing you want. Yeah. The incentives are not really around finding truth, it's around like some of these other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And So
Speaker 1:you can find competing like two
Speaker 2:Yeah. They can find whatever whatever you want. I Studies
Speaker 1:that prove opposite points. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like kind of been annoyed I'm I'm annoyed by everyone on this involved in this process, right? And the thing we were talking about the other day is I saw a paper that was like, some academic paper that shows that trigger warnings are not effective, okay? So what a trigger warning is, is Trigger warnings? Like, this is like a, okay, this is a stupid concept that came out where people have certain trauma and when you might potentially talk about things in that category, you like say trigger warning for people blah blah blah blah blah. It's a really dumb concept.
Speaker 2:It's like a way It's like trying to like formalize being sensitive or like communicating effectively into this this stupid set of rules. Yeah. Yeah. So from the beginning, I knew this may makes no sense. Like anyone with intuition and can think about this knows that this is a concept doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2:But then there was a research study on this concept. The research study, I also think makes no sense because you can, like, how are you gonna really research something like this? Yeah. Like, you really can't put together an effective research study. So I think, one of the people that made up this concept, dumb.
Speaker 2:The people then that went and did a research study, also dumb. They did find it has no like it's not effective, so it kind of reflects what my instinct was. Yeah. But I also think people that wanna cite that are also dumb. Like I wanna like, kill this entire process, It's like, when it comes to these, like, psychology and sociology things, it's like, the research around that stuff.
Speaker 2:I just, I I feel like we would get out of the mindset of like, oh, papers are the thing. Yeah. That proves it. Because it's like, you can find competing results for like anything, it's pretty noisy.
Speaker 1:That applies for you across the board for all areas because it's like, I agree with the psychology, sociology stuff, but what about like, biosciences, like medical health?
Speaker 2:It it just it it depends. I think I think we try to treat everything like physics and we, like, run the same process for everything. That's why, for the stuff like psychology, it just doesn't work. That's so far away from something like physics. And I think there's a spectrum.
Speaker 2:Even with the biology stuff, I feel like just the body is so so complex. Yeah. I'm not I'm not discounting all research in entirely, of course, it's how we make progress. But usually on a list of reasons why I'm like sold by something, like that part of it is is lower is lower. That's low
Speaker 1:on the re yeah. Okay. You should try cold do you do any cold exposure? Because I'm telling you, it I feels keep being cold. Amazing.
Speaker 1:It feels so good.
Speaker 3:It doesn't
Speaker 1:feel good in the moment, But after, like, for hours after, there's just this afterglow. You get like five minutes in a cold plunge at really cold temperatures. I can't describe.
Speaker 2:I believe it. I 100% believe it. It's just not it's just not gonna
Speaker 1:be Not my for you.
Speaker 2:I literally moved to Miami to
Speaker 1:not Do you like do you like the heat? I mean, you're in Miami. Do you like a sauna?
Speaker 2:I definitely done a bunch of steam rooms and saunas and I and I do enjoy them. Okay. I think they're great. So the cold plunge, can kind of, like, this is probably not the same but I can kind of relate to a little bit. Like growing up, my parents had a pool and we also had a hot tub.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So at night when it got cold, would go into the hot tub, get super hot, and we would jump into, like, the freezing cold water Uh-huh. And then just stay there for as long as we could, then we would swim back into the hot tub and we'd do this back and forth. And it did feel like
Speaker 1:Feels good.
Speaker 2:It felt right. I don't know. Contrast therapy.
Speaker 1:That's what that is right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, there you go. There's a name for it.
Speaker 1:There's a name for it. There's a name for everything, Dax. It's in the papers. You should check them out.
Speaker 2:In the papers. Do you read the papers or do you are you just satisfied that
Speaker 1:I read the paper papers? No. I just as long as someone tells me there's a paper, you just say like, oh, there's a paper that proves something. That's a checkbox for me in my mind. I'm not gonna read the paper.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't know what to do with it if I read it. Have you ever have you done any like Wim Hof breathing?
Speaker 2:I've tried it because it's like it's insane how immediately effective it is. Right? Like his approach.
Speaker 1:It is so yeah. I like I've tried meditation. I've tried like the Headspace app and like, I've generally not resonated with I don't know, clearing my thoughts and, like, being in a meditative state. That I feel like is the closest thing that feels like when I deflate that, like, after 30 breaths and just hold the breath for ninety seconds or whatever, that state I'm in is the most relaxed I ever feel. Like, I I just feels really good to me.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't go any further than that. Like, I don't care if there's an explanation. It's just like, I feel really good at the end of that cycle of of breaths. So I do love the Wim Hof breathing.
Speaker 2:Nice. Yeah. Jay is super into meditation. I think he meditates every morning and he's gotten to a really good place with it. I think he's like, he's been on and off in his life and right now he's in like this really steady like, he's been doing it for
Speaker 1:a while. It's like a thing that I always wanna come back to. Like, it's an aspirational thing of mine because I know Yeah. I mean, the the like extreme examples where people just through meditation can enter into, like, transcendent states. I mean, just like sort of like psychedelics.
Speaker 1:Like, they can
Speaker 2:Yeah. Any any state you can get to with a drug, can technically, like, get to You can
Speaker 1:get there on your own. Yeah. That just blows my mind. So I I do like aspire to get there one day but I've not I've not been able to progress much when I've tried.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It it is challenging.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. Like like the Wim Hof breathing takes, I don't know, like 12 or something. Like to just do the normal like set of three rounds or whatever. And it's amazing how hard it is just to every morning just, like, set aside twelve minutes. It's like, I just wanna get straight to work.
Speaker 1:I wanna get straight into something I'm on. And it's amazing. Like, it's twelve minutes. I'll spend that time waiting on the Twitter app or whatever. Like, it's so stupid.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just it's just the habits. But, you know, the the habit I told you about last week, my walking backwards in the morning while blowing bubbles
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Been doing it
Speaker 1:every Still doing it. Day Yeah?
Speaker 2:This week.
Speaker 1:I I went for a long walk yesterday. I like to put like a ruck sack, like it's like 30 pounds of weight. And I did like at least ten minutes of my hour walk I did backward. And my knee, I honestly, I feel like it's already feeling better. I don't know how that's possible, but the inflammation in my knee is Honestly.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Some things are just like that. I think there's just like you've never walked backwards. Well, you start doing it and immediately you're gonna get some benefit. It's that elbow thing.
Speaker 1:I tell the tennis elbow is gone after like two days of using this little thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It is crazy how quickly you can you can fix some of those things if you just find the right trick. But yeah, I feel the same as walking. I feel like a sensation in the back of my knee where I like I feel like it's getting worked out in a way that it's never been worked out before and I feel like some kind of strength as a real like related to that so
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let's get let's get a little check on, your physical activity here, Dax. Have you gotten back to it? Are you still using the old, I should probably get my knee a little longer?
Speaker 2:You know you know what's really stupid? So I hurt my ankle two days ago.
Speaker 1:Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:I'm just on this terrible trend.
Speaker 1:Was it walking backwards blowing bubbles that you hurt your ankle?
Speaker 2:I like hype I kinda like hyperextend because I was doing some of these knee exercises and I kinda hyperextended my ankle and
Speaker 1:it felt totally
Speaker 2:fine and like later in the day, I like got up and I was like, oh, man, that doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:Oh, no.
Speaker 2:It's basically back to normal but I think by the end of this week, this week was supposed to be my week back. I was gonna go back to the gym and and do
Speaker 1:everything. Yeah. What I thought. Yeah. That's what I'm checking in on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. This ankle thing def delayed it a little bit. I broke my toe, like,
Speaker 1:two months ago. You broke a toe? How'd you break You a
Speaker 2:know how toes break, they're just kinda like fractured and like you
Speaker 1:just No. Won't I've never I've never broken a bone. Don't know You've broken a toe.
Speaker 2:I don't
Speaker 1:know how anything breaks. I'm made of steel.
Speaker 2:I just slammed it into like, I was coming back inside my house to the back door, and I like just stupidly slammed it straight into like the step. Oh. And I had no shoes on. Oh. You don't I don't want Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Miami life. Yeah. And I was like, well, that's definitely broken. And it there were there was one of the things that like, there's something you can do for it, you just tape it to the next toe. It's like kind of annoying and they take forever to fully heal.
Speaker 2:It doesn't really stop you from doing this.
Speaker 1:It's like a nagging because you're still walking on it. I mean, you can't
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not being I was like working out and it was all fine but
Speaker 1:have you broken other bones? Like, this a common
Speaker 2:Collarbone.
Speaker 1:You've broken your collarbone?
Speaker 2:My collarbone. It's a very it's a classic.
Speaker 1:I'm like I could actually participate in that Reddit, the no broken bones Reddit. Have you seen that?
Speaker 2:No. Is that a thing?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's a thing. There's a Reddit for people who've never broken their bones. And as soon as somebody, like, breaks a bone, they post there and it's like, you're out and they kick them out. Wow. They broke a bone and they're so sad that they're no longer part of the Reddit.
Speaker 1:You should check it out. The subreddit.
Speaker 2:That's really funny. Wait.
Speaker 1:But you I don't remember the name exactly.
Speaker 2:You've been injured, though, because you hurt you, like, tore your
Speaker 1:knee. I've I've had, like, like, ligament injuries. I've never never broken a bone, though. Maybe jiu jitsu will will push that to the limit. Maybe they'll break a rib or something.
Speaker 2:Do people break things in jiu jitsu? Are those mostly, like, tears and stuff?
Speaker 1:Ribs. People bruise and break ribs.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:But I think that's probably the most susceptible to a break.
Speaker 2:Rib rib injuries seem like the worst. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like breathing, laughing. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Everything just You're
Speaker 1:you can't really keep it stable for any period of time. You're always breathing. I've got all kinds of little bumps and bruises now. Like, my fingers, my knuckles are getting so thick. Like, they say you get little micro fractures hardening?
Speaker 1:Just from yeah. Just from all the gripping. I'm gonna have these, like, arthritic, lumpy hands. And I just
Speaker 2:Well, it might be good for it, isn't it? I don't
Speaker 1:know, maybe.
Speaker 2:But that's kind of what was saying last week. I think, the thing that that physical therapist was actually talking about was arthritis where, her point was everyone has arthritis, some had arthritis in some parts of their body because all it is just like stuff degenerating. Yeah. Then they use it less and then it just gets It just kind of speeds up its deterioration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so using it, if you keep using it, the arthritis isn't bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like, you might still have, like, some level of, like, discomfort or pain with it, but it'll, like, stay flat as opposed to getting worse,
Speaker 1:you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm gonna change the topic because I said
Speaker 1:last time, we're
Speaker 2:gonna stop talking about
Speaker 1:Oh, about our bodies. Yeah. Sorry. I'm the last thing I'll say, I'm just it's I've never been obsessed with a physical activity before. So this is very new to me.
Speaker 2:Wait. Is that true, though? What about when you played sports in
Speaker 1:high never that into it. I was, like, big and athletic. I had to play basketball because, like, my friends played basketball, and I was, like, a foot taller than everybody. So I didn't have an option.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I was, like, I was a pretty good football player, but I never really was that into it. I didn't ever think about football if I wasn't on the football field.
Speaker 2:Like Okay.
Speaker 1:This has been, like, twenty four hours a day, I am consumed with getting better at jiu jitsu. So it's just like I've my full obsession laser beam that I I throw at things. Yeah. And it's a physical activity. So it's very new to me.
Speaker 1:Sorry I've talked so much about my aging, aching body. I'll stop. But I'm competing at a tournament a month, so you're probably gonna hear more of it because, like, that's all I'm thinking about. Sorry. Tech.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about tech or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did we talk about the Terraform licensing changes?
Speaker 1:Or what And I know very little. I just know they made some licensing changes. Could you please inform me?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So so HashiCorp, the company behind a few major open source projects, I think people mostly know from Terraform, but there's a bunch of other stuff that they run as well as well, like Vault and Console and Nomad. They just make a bunch of like, infrastructure low level type, open source products.
Speaker 1:Is this another benevolent dictator situation?
Speaker 2:No, I think it's like a different pattern Okay. That that shows up. So they they've started
Speaker 1:as
Speaker 2:an open source company, so everything they did was open source and they were following the model of, okay, we have an open source products and they're gonna be open source because they make sense to be open source. We want them to spread as much as possible. We want an ecosystem to build on top of them. And then we're gonna have some adjacent products that are more enterprise focused that are paid, to sustain the whole thing. And they've been extremely successful as a company, right?
Speaker 2:They like IPO'd, they're public company and all that. But, they aren't actually doing super well. And they recently made a major decision to move all of their, products under a different license called the business source license. And this is an interesting model where, it's not the same as taking something open source and then making it closed source. Everything is still like the code is still available and it's always gonna be available, but you cannot use their products to build a competing product.
Speaker 2:So if you are an end user of Terraform, if you use Terraform to run up your infrastructure or whatever,
Speaker 1:you find like
Speaker 2:this doesn't really affect yeah. It doesn't really affect end users.
Speaker 1:But SST? Yes.
Speaker 2:That where
Speaker 1:you're Yeah. Going with
Speaker 2:So we potentially wanted to use Terraform to build SST on top of.
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:And there's a bunch of companies that have already done this. There's a big company called Spacelift that's been pretty successful on building a product on top of Terraform. Very successful actually, like people prefer it to Terraform's kind of equivalent product. Yeah. So it like goes after kind of competitive companies.
Speaker 2:I hate this situation, I think it's, a really bad situation for a few reasons. I'm generally fine with business source licenses like this because there are situations that you want to prevent. If you build a database, you don't necessarily want AWS to provide a managed version of it without paying you. Yeah. That's not a good situation.
Speaker 2:That's
Speaker 1:I mean
Speaker 2:Yeah, with Elastic and that's kind And
Speaker 1:Mongo, Right? Or no? They didn't use Mongo? They just made a similar product?
Speaker 2:No. They didn't. They have like a Mongo compatible Yeah. Product Yeah. That literally no one uses.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is that document yeah. Anyway.
Speaker 2:Remember Rick Olehan was, like, ranting about it?
Speaker 1:I read it. That was so good. That was worth the trip to re:Invent. Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That one hour. So so that's fine. But I don't think it makes sense universally. I think there's some tools that are low level.
Speaker 2:You So imagine something like a programming language, right? Imagine something like Go. Yeah. Imagine if Google was like, if you're an end user of Go, that's fine. But you can't use Go to build a competing product.
Speaker 2:That kind of kills the entire concept of using Go, right? For something foundational like a programming language, you need to be as open as, you know, widely available as possible so it can spread to all the places that it can possibly spread to. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason HashiCorp is doing this, my take on it is because they actually failed their product.
Speaker 2:If you look at all the products they tried to build, they're extremely good at building the actual tools. Yeah. But all the SaaS software they try to build, they just failed. They just failed to execute on it and there are competitors that actually did a better job. It's particularly damning because it's really weird when a competitor uses your tool to build a better product.
Speaker 1:To build a better product.
Speaker 2:Because you have all the advantages possible.
Speaker 1:Like, refers
Speaker 2:to it, you have like way more influence on it. Like imagine if someone built a better host for Next. Js than Vercel. Yeah. That would be like Oh, slap in the face.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right? So that's the situation they're in and they're choosing to try to, like, tighten and squeeze now instead of, kind of foundationally rethinking what what their actual problem is. They just fill out the business model side of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So is the some of these examples of companies that are built on top, are they now feeling this they have to, like, Pay HashiCorp or abandon the thing? Like, what do they do?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's a tricky situation because okay. So the way this stuff works is they can't retroactively apply this.
Speaker 1:So Okay.
Speaker 2:The current version of Terraform, and I think this license doesn't go into effect immediately, so I think it's there's another either till the end of the year or there's another year or something like that. There will be a version of Terraform that will forever be open source. It just cannot ingest any changes made after a certain point. So any like bug fixes, features, security patches, you can't just suck those in directly. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So at this point, a lot of these companies, they're gonna like go through the legal process to see what actually is the case. Like, it's very unclear. A lot of the companies are saying, oh, we think we're actually in compliance based on what their license says. I don't think that's the case. I think the license is intentionally a little bit vague so they can like, case by case aside, like, we're fine with this company using it.
Speaker 2:We're not fine with this company using it. I think a lot of companies are gonna they're not gonna be fine in this situation.
Speaker 1:So there's could
Speaker 2:be a fork.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, a fork. Okay. So I was gonna ask I think they're just stuck on that version of of the products that they're building on top of, but you're saying they'll just fork it and make changes as they need to. Like a community led thing.
Speaker 2:Right now, I think they're going about in a good way. Right now, they established something called Open Terraform, which is not yet a fork. It is just right now, like like a like a plea to HashiCorp saying like reconsider and here's like a 100 companies that have said, we want you to reconsider and if you don't, we're we're gonna commit x amount of resources to maintaining a fork. Yeah. So from HashiCorp's point of view, like they should consider it.
Speaker 2:I think a fork is not good for anyone. Right. But if they don't, I think we end up in a much better situation actually. Because now you have a bunch of different companies. No one company failing is gonna affect this project.
Speaker 2:It's big enough where there's enough companies that are gonna support it. And that some of companies compete with each other, so it kinda like brings that Yeah. Situation. I think that's a good thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's maybe like really like reconsider what kind of open source can work. I feel like anything this low level and this foundational, it just has to either be supported by something like this where it's a group of different companies that are like no one company failing is gonna affect it, or it's just like in some kind of foundation in similar setup.
Speaker 1:So why does this remind my dumb brain of Docker? Is there any parallel to like
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I think Docker is a great example of what like Hashicorp's worst fear in a lot of ways. Docker is a runtime and it's extremely hard to come up with a business model around a runtime because the point of a runtime is it runs somewhere else, right? Yeah. So all the places people are running things are just gonna support your runtime and profit off of it.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. Docker runs on AWS, on Google Cloud, on like literally everywhere and they almost feel as a company. They're like literally almost went to zero. They had a great turnaround story because they came up with a completely different way to make money.
Speaker 1:Oh, they did. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They actually just charge for Docker desktop now, which I don't really understand why people pay for it,
Speaker 1:but Really? I hate that I have Docker desktop on my machine. I can't imagine paying for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I think I guess because on Mac, you, like, kinda need it. Yeah. You need
Speaker 1:to Yeah.
Speaker 2:Run emulate or run a VM or something.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, it seems like there's always a project that makes me download Docker again and then I delete it when I don't need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So I don't know how long this is gonna last. I feel like eventually there's even gonna be an open source version of that but they hit like a 100,000,000 ARR in like
Speaker 1:Oh wow. One or
Speaker 2:two years after almost being dead.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that turnaround story. Again, where do you read these? Is this the Wall Street Journal? What do you how do you stay on top of this
Speaker 2:I don't know. I just feel like when you're I'm just in the DevTool space, I guess, so I'm just like always hearing about this stuff from other founders and things. I think there was like a big write up on this, like, just like a good business case to Yeah. To learn from. But yeah, it is
Speaker 1:I truly pick your brain more. There's a lot in there. There's a lot of stuff. I mean, I feel like that's what this podcast is. I I pick your brain quite a bit, but I'm not taking advantage of it enough.
Speaker 1:Like, I feel like I could ask you any random question and you've probably got an answer, some well informed opinion.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna run out of stuff eventually because I don't really want you to increase your rate. I think your rate of consumption of my knowledge is is good. I think we're at
Speaker 1:a good We'll just keep this pace. Yeah. I wanna get
Speaker 2:beyond the 100.
Speaker 1:Like, a 100 is a is a milestone that I'm very excited about. We're halfway.
Speaker 2:Episodes. 100 episodes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not a 100% of your knowledge, I don't know what that would be. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so it it is similar to Docker in that, like, sometimes it is hard to figure out a business model around open source. Yeah. Think it's always possible. I think if you are good enough at product and if you're good enough and creative enough to thinking about Bizmod and you care from the beginning to make sure that Yeah. You have that in place so the whole thing is sustainable, I think it's very doable.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's just a situation where, again, they kind of grew up in a time where just fundraising was super easy, so then they got to a really crazy place very quickly. And now that it's kind of like, okay, gotta pay up for where you are and yeah, the investors are looking I'm sure that the thing that happens is, if you're doing well, you can run your business however you want. You can do whatever insane thing you want, no one is gonna think twice. Everything you do is a genius move because your business is doing well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The moment it starts to not do well, suddenly there's like opinions everywhere. So I'm sure Yeah. The big shareholders of HashiCorp are looking at them being like, you have this much adoption. You have competitors making money, why are you allowing this? So there's probably a crazy amount of pressure, it's all very short term because this eventually just kills what Terraform could continue to grow and be because if it's if it's not this ecosystem, you know, it does it does get hurt.
Speaker 2:But that's kind what they're suffering from currently.
Speaker 1:I wondered when you first started into the they're not doing well, how much of that was the macro stuff. Yeah. Hope that's I I don't know why I'm am am I a pessimist? I I still feel like the shoe hasn't dropped on all that stuff. Like, it's gonna take years for all of it to unravel.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe AI will save the space. Maybe there'll just be so much advancement. Did that sound like a joke? I wasn't even joking.
Speaker 2:No. I don't think it's a joke. I think that but that is you are hinting at the larger pattern. There's inflationary things that happen
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which are very visible. But there's constant there's constantly deflationary stuff that's happening in like a million different ways that is very invisible. So and AI is one of them.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a question that now I wonder if you know the answer, if you could tell me about something that I heard a little snippet about?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you hear anything about the Google AI search stuff? Like what Bing's doing, that Google's doing it now?
Speaker 2:I saw someone post a screenshot and I didn't look into it anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Haven't looked into it either. And I'm very curious what what it is, what that means.
Speaker 2:From what I saw, it looked like they're gonna show you AI results. AI type l like LLM type results alongside normal results. Is that what it was?
Speaker 1:Oh, alongside. Oh, maybe. I don't know. That's what I'm asking. I wish you knew.
Speaker 1:Here I was just talking about how you know everything and then
Speaker 2:you didn't. My knowledge cuts off at 2021 so it's funny. Yeah. But I do wonder from a product perspective what the right way is because right now we have like a very focused experience of LLMs where you're like, I have a problem and I'm going to use that that the chat you do to solve it and you have a very focused experience. I think that actually works pretty well.
Speaker 2:It worked bet it works better than I thought it would. I thought I would never develop that habit but I have developed it now. Yeah. So this idea of like mixing together both things, that does sound like a good idea but I do wonder if it's just better to like have two completely separate experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. Have we talked about like Google search, any of that stuff? Because it's something that is very top of mind for me.
Speaker 2:No. What are you thinking?
Speaker 1:I mean, just wondering like what the trend over the next five years looks like. Like, is Google's business of just selling ads on search result pages, is that actually in jeopardy? Like, the initial reaction when OpenAI launched ChatGPT, it was like, Google is dead. Yeah. And I don't know.
Speaker 1:Like, I think everyone came off that a little bit, but is there some trend toward, like, this is a better way to index and search information on the web? Like, throw it all into these giant models? I don't know. Is is there, like, a fundamental change coming?
Speaker 2:I think yes for a lot of types queries but remember, we still don't have a great solution for integrating in new information. So anything that's somewhat real time, by real time it's literally like within the past year, You can't use an LM for any of that yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Guess, like, I assume that that problem goes away. But I don't know how. I mean, I like, the plugin stuff, what about that? Like, they can use plugins to search.
Speaker 2:The plugins can, like, can like do actions on a target
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which can emulate searching
Speaker 1:like There's there's some that search the web, like you can give them URLs and they'll fetch data from it.
Speaker 2:But they're like using Google to do that, you know?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Well, that's the other thing. Like, I think it's like the chicken egg thing with Stack Overflow. It's like, oh, Stack Overflow traffic is tanking. It's like, what's gonna happen when Yeah.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have new because that's what it's all fed off of or feeding off of.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like I said, I don't I don't understand. You know, this reminds me so much of and it might this might be completely unrelated. Do you know the thing with radiated steel?
Speaker 1:No. L k 99? No. No? Okay.
Speaker 2:So I I don't remember the exact details, so I'm sure I'm gonna get some of the details wrong. But generally, ever since we started blowing up nuclear bombs just on Earth
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:The level of, like, background radiation has changed in the world. So when we produce steel now, it it like impacts how the steel comes out, which is fine for most cases. But for highly precise scenarios like building a Geiger counter, like building a thing that detects radiation
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:You actually can't use modern manufactured steel.
Speaker 1:Do you have to make it on the moon or something?
Speaker 2:What Well, they recycle steel produced before a certain date.
Speaker 1:Woah. That sucks. So there's a limited amount of that.
Speaker 2:And it just kind of but I think I think the use cases right now are narrow, so I think we're fine. I think similarly, I think carbon dating also has been impacted. Think, forgot what it is. I think the amount of carbon that you find on average in organic matter has changed over the years so like, you have to adjust for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's similar it's similar to the thing because I'm like now that AI is out, there's like a moment in time where LLMs came out and there's like a now, half of that time, content that exists is some percentage produced by humans, some percentage produced by LMs. Prior to that point, you can just ingest all content because all content was produced by humans for the most part. So at this point, it's like, if you're gonna re refeed in new data that is being created, some of that data is output from that same
Speaker 1:From the LLMs. Yeah. Yeah. I see how you tied that with the nuclear bomb stuff. That was that was some expert level tying together.
Speaker 1:That was impressive. So I see the parallel. Is it bad though? Is it bad that it ingests its own like, if other LLMs even are creating content and like some bigger model is being constructed that ingests that stuff, what does that mean? Is it like in inbred models?
Speaker 1:What what
Speaker 2:Yeah. Kind of. Right? I I think there's a there's a situation where below a certain threshold, it makes you worse, it's like poison. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you ever get past certain threshold, you immediately hit like the singularity, right, because then it's like
Speaker 1:Oh, like
Speaker 2:it's like learning and feeding on itself.
Speaker 1:Infinite, like, recursion of,
Speaker 2:yeah. And I I think there's, like, a spectrum. I think there is, like, processes where, like, outputs are, like, re refed back into inputs and retrained but in, like, a very, like, specific and and controlled way.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But, like, just generally ingesting data, I feel like The whole, I mean, whole problem from the beginning has been like, having clearly labeled clean data. Yeah. That was like, the massive part of like, the intensive effort that it took to build these things and it just gets harder now because now it's like, way more way more noise. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Filter out a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So I I do wonder.
Speaker 1:Are people just like creating whole websites of AI content and like trying to game SEO stuff and like build big I bet that has to be happening. Right?
Speaker 2:It's such low value behavior. I know.
Speaker 1:I hate that idea so much.
Speaker 2:I'm just like, do you really have to do this? Like, I know there's people that are gonna be doing this, but like, can we just not? You know? It's like
Speaker 1:Can we just not?
Speaker 2:Just think of anything else to do with your life.
Speaker 1:Just any anything else. There have definitely been some articles I've ended up on where I'm like, is this a human? Did a human write this? I didn't stay long.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, even before all this stuff came out, this is already a thing because in, in like the finance world when news comes out so quickly, a lot of the art articles, people are consuming them in the form of posts were just like written using a bunch of heuristics like, okay, earnings came out if this, if that, if that, then publish this article.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's a company that did that. I know exactly what you're talking about and I can't remember. Yeah. They did it for sports which is in my in my alley a little bit.
Speaker 2:Same thing. I think that's like real time.
Speaker 1:It's like box four comes out and they just crank out this like report of what happened in the game and it sounds kind of like color commentary but it's just like a bunch of rules. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And now so I'm sure people are doing that with with LLMs but, yeah, don't know, we'll see. Will they get better? How much better will they get? I think even if they don't get any better, there's still like decades of work now we can do Yeah.
Speaker 2:To integrate them into places and and make things more efficient.
Speaker 1:But Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's always the fun part.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Have you done any more digging? Are you are you like still pursuing the LLM thing? Now that you don't have to rewrite the SST and Terraform, you've got some time on your hands.
Speaker 2:No, man. No, rewriting SST in Terraform, I still I I'm still hoping that Terraform thing plays out where we can we can use it. Yeah. I'm talking to the Pulumi people to see what, how they're doing things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Didn't think about Pulumi.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I still wanna do that. I feel like I still love Terraform. Think it's a really really great tool. I think it works really well like No tool is perfect but I think like compared to what we have in CDK and CloudFormation, it is just so much better.
Speaker 2:So I think about that every day. Every day I wake up and I'm like, I see all the issues as he has, I'm just like, this is in Terraform, this wouldn't be a problem. Yeah, I'm I'm so casually reading about all the LM stuff, just like, it's kind of my like what I read before I go to sleep. I try to like look up some random stuff.
Speaker 1:Have you been on any any car path y video YouTube trails?
Speaker 2:No, have. I remember I remember that guy from like years ago when I tried to get into machine learning like in the previous era of all this. No, I haven't gone super I'm not my approach hasn't really been like, I'm gonna learn this topic, it's been more like, I'm trying to if I'm trying to do a specific thing, I feel like AI can help this and I'm trying to like reverse into how it could could do that. Yeah. Because basically what I'm hoping to find out is, here's a whole like, I'm trying to identify a category of products that people are going to build, or a category of features and products people are gonna build Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And figure out what gap there is from AWS Bedrock to that and figure out, okay, here's what we need to build.
Speaker 1:To then bridge that in SST. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like we it might be nothing and hopefully it is nothing but it likely is gonna be something.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. There's track record there, I think. I I think I don't have to pee. Like, I I haven't drank much, but I do need to eat.
Speaker 1:I haven't eaten yet today.
Speaker 2:Now you need to eat too.
Speaker 1:Can you tell I'm very low energy? I'm just I'm in a great mood, but I'm Fading. I'm fading.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's We gotta remember. Well, you also you also jujitsu this morning, so I'm sure
Speaker 1:you're I was three hours of jujitsu. I had a private lesson at the end. So I am I am hungry. I'm gonna eat a lot.
Speaker 2:We gotta set a rule for the podcast. Like, the time that we start is not that important, so we should always eat beforehand. I feel like it's
Speaker 1:That's true. Feel it's just should always eat before. Yeah. I feel like I'm so zapped and and not very fun. Sorry.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't wanna just, like, you know, just crank them out just because we can. We gotta we gotta make them good. I wanna make the podcast
Speaker 3:We need
Speaker 2:to take some, like, performance enhancing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There you go. PEDs for podcasting. Like, what would that look like? It's probably the same stuff you take for weightlifting.
Speaker 2:No. I just laugh thinking because, like, so many podcasts advertise, like, alpha brain.
Speaker 1:Like, you know,
Speaker 2:here's, like, your pill for your brain. Like, I feel that's, like, such a podcast commercial thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Alpha brain. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:May maybe that's what we need to
Speaker 1:Caffeine always works. Do you do do you do caffeine daily?
Speaker 2:Do I do no. I I don't I don't drink any I mean, I think the kombucha I drink, I'm sure, has some amount of caffeine.
Speaker 1:Are you still on the golden pineapple kombuchas?
Speaker 2:Hell, yeah. Got one in the fridge. Let me count. Let me count one.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've got a
Speaker 2:whole bunch of them. Two, three, four,
Speaker 1:five bottles. Is five bottles. I've got one in the fridge that's half empty. But this can you see this? I don't know where the camera.
Speaker 2:It looks fancy.
Speaker 4:They have stuff like that
Speaker 3:they have stuff that looks like
Speaker 2:that in the Ozarks?
Speaker 1:You're so funny. It's a watermelon juice with pineapple in it. There's always pineapple. I don't drink something if there's not pineapple involved, but it's delicious. Mella.
Speaker 1:They make a passion fruit version and a straight watermelon version. Delicious. And watermelon juice
Speaker 2:But we got
Speaker 1:There's a paper. There's a science.
Speaker 2:The nutrition facts. So what's the deal? Like, do they add sugar? Is it
Speaker 1:Oh, no. There's no sugar. No added from
Speaker 2:the watermelon.
Speaker 1:There's sugar from the watermelon, but the ingredients
Speaker 2:But no added sugar.
Speaker 1:Are watermelon juice, pineapple juice, vitamin c, natural flavors.
Speaker 2:Nice. That's pretty good. Mello.
Speaker 1:They're they're really it's just like watermelon juice. And did you know there's a paper about how watermelon juice right after you work out They're asking for a paper. For recovery. There actually is. I haven't read it, but I trust it.
Speaker 1:And it's delicious.
Speaker 2:Liz is a big fan of watermelon juice. Something It's like
Speaker 1:it's different than drinking a kombucha. It's a little lighter. It's just like fruit juice.
Speaker 2:Going back, I I wasn't joking when I said they have stuff that looks like that in the Ozarks. Like when I see okay. So for people that are listening
Speaker 1:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:It's this like neon green like branded thing.
Speaker 1:It's actually yellow but my camera might
Speaker 2:just be very green shifted. I'm I'm I'm bad with colors so it just looks like so like brandy, like like the most Yeah. Brandy thing ever. Like I know they, like, hired some cool designer to make this.
Speaker 1:Well, this is like yeah. It's a product you could buy probably anywhere in the country. I think we get most of the products.
Speaker 2:It's just a pry I just can't imagine something that looks like that in the Ozarks. This feels incompatible. Oh, got it flown in.
Speaker 1:Did you know they have Doctor Pepper here and Coca Cola?
Speaker 2:That that that makes sense. That's like traditional American products. This
Speaker 1:is everywhere, but you don't expect the niche health food products?
Speaker 2:That's this is clearly a startup. Like, that not like a startup.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Maybe.
Speaker 2:Four people that work there.
Speaker 1:You need to see, is there like Mella? Is is this a drink you can get at your local, like, Publix or whatever? What do you what do you go to? What a grocery store?
Speaker 2:Whole Foods. But, yeah, we go to Publix Yeah.
Speaker 1:I like Whole Foods. They have one in Kansas City.
Speaker 2:In New York, there was this thing happened and maybe it's still happening. Around COVID, around lockdown, around peak zero interest rates, Seltzer took over to this point where there were, like, anytime I would walk into anywhere, a bodega, a grocer, whatever, a giant wall of, like, a 100 different Seltzer brands, I swear, all designed by a single design agency that was killing it. Because like, they all just had like these they all looked really good. It was almost like looking at art. It was like a wall of like just crazy nice designed packaging.
Speaker 2:But like, so so many brands and they all kind of looked like that. Like, they were just, like, really well designed. And I was like, what is happening where there's, a 100 seltzer companies being founded? It's it's really just water.
Speaker 1:I never enjoy I don't enjoy sparkling water. I've never gotten into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm not a huge fan, but, like, I get it. Like, I get why people drink it. I'll have it from time to time, but it we just went crazy with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I remember when it was the big thing, like, at every, like, investor office in San Francisco, they'd have, like, a fridge full of them. Would you like LaCroix? What flavor of LaCroix would you like?
Speaker 1:Is that seltzer water or no? Is that is that different?
Speaker 3:No. It isn't. That's I
Speaker 2:think that that was the first one of the first ones that got really popular. And I think they've been around for a long time.
Speaker 1:And it's just like a million of them showed up.
Speaker 2:And the only differentiator was like really good packaging. And I'm not
Speaker 1:Packaging.
Speaker 2:I'm not diminishing it. Like, it was like incredible packaging. Maybe some of the best art I've seen in like years.
Speaker 1:I'm a sucker for good branding.
Speaker 2:Was always Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, you can sell me so quickly. Especially if you have like a series of products. So they have, like, four different colors of these.
Speaker 2:Oh, perfect.
Speaker 1:It's like the different flavors, and I'm just so sold when I see that.
Speaker 2:You gotta try them all
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And pick your favorite.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh. Pineapple. That's my favorite. Alright. I'm gonna go eat before I pass out.
Speaker 1:This is good. Was it? Hey. It was good.
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's always good to talk with you, you know? Like, I I'm glad that people listen to the podcast. But it's good just to stay in touch even if Yeah.
Speaker 2:I look forward to it. I think I it's it's become so such a part of my routine. I'm like, I think I need it at this point, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We I think once we're both not so busy, we'll probably try and like I don't know. I'll get back to making little clips and and do more like to spice it up. I don't know if anybody listening, you know, likes a little something spicy every once in a while. Mix it up.
Speaker 1:Not get too crusty. We'll get back to that stuff. We're just in the in the throes of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Alright. Cool.
Speaker 1:Cool. Alright. See you, Dex.
Speaker 2:See you.
