Adam Questions Nice App Design, JavaScript Dictators, and Jiu-jitsu
If wanna write a line of JavaScript, you gotta ask me first.
Speaker 2:You go through DAX. Yeah. What'd you say about Tailwind?
Speaker 1:There's some technologies that we're all supposed we all know we're supposed to say it's good but we don't actually use. And I included Tailwind on that list. So literally what I said was, Tailwind is good but I don't use it. Tons of replies being like, you know, actually Tailwind is good. It's just like, I thought the anti Tailwind people were annoying but it turns out, you're all just not every single person talking about Tailwind is annoying.
Speaker 1:And then
Speaker 2:Except for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, except for me, of course.
Speaker 2:You got the right take.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And then today, I tweet I posted that I was like, hey, everyone, I said Tailwind is good, like, don't have tell me that it's good. And I know and I as like, three minutes after I tweeted it out, I'm like, damn it. I'm not I'm gonna get the reverse.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna get all these people replying and being like, no, it's actually bad. I don't understand why this one topic is just like such a it just attracts the most annoying parts of everyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It really does. I love it. I know you don't use it but I don't also don't have strong opinions about why I love it. I just once I started using it, I kept using it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mean, like I said, I've used that pattern for a very long time so I definitely appreciate it. I just don't use it anymore. And that's it. It's not more interesting than that.
Speaker 2:It's really not.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I just finished this interview with a linear guy. I don't know how much you caught a bit. Uh-huh. But I'm mostly happy that it looked like his setup was very good.
Speaker 1:So I think his recording is gonna be very good.
Speaker 2:Oh, nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because usually we get like not like, you know, most people aren't like us that just spent way too much money on our setups. So we get Yeah. When the guest joins usually not Was
Speaker 2:that Liz you had on? Her setup was awful. Just kidding.
Speaker 1:Well, know that situation is frustrating because she will come to me and she'll be like, oh, you know what? I think it does make a difference to have like a good mic and a good camera, especially when she's just talking. Anyway, to investors, customers like, it's a nice first impression. I'm like, oh, great. She like, she's into it like, nice.
Speaker 1:We can do this. We can set it up really when I want to. And then she'll be like, but everything's so ugly like I want my office to have this vibe. Man, it's just impossible. It is impossible.
Speaker 1:She has like this nice like Yeah. Warm, interesting lamp, like candle, like zen office vibe. You're just not gonna get that when you have like a mic arm that's like coming off the side.
Speaker 2:It really sucks. The struggle is real. Like, I wish I could have a really nice looking office like I did before I started doing any of this and also produce video stuff. But there's just no way to make it look good. I've tried.
Speaker 2:You can hide the cable. That doesn't matter. The stuff is huge. There's just so much stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You have to commit to a different vibe.
Speaker 2:That's a trade off you're willing to make though. You can make it look good for a camera or you can make it look good for people in the office, but not both.
Speaker 1:I haven't hidden my cables at all. It's a disaster. I don't know how you did it. There's so many cables.
Speaker 2:I've only hidden the cables around my like, on my desk. Like, my computer stuff. Not really my media stuff. Like, all my cameras and stuff. I think I did the first time
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Tried to, like, get everything so tucked away. And then the first time I went to move it, I was like, never again. Never doing that again because it's really annoying then when you're like, oh, I'm gonna move the camera over here. And you gotta undo a bunch of cable bundles and yeah, it's no good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. My cables are just draped on the ground. It's it's because I mean, I think you have the Sony camera which is a little bit better because you can plug it straight into your computer, right? Or
Speaker 2:no. I it's a Cam Link. It's powered by just a USB C cable.
Speaker 1:Oh, USB C cable. Okay. So Yeah. My camera needs one of those fake batteries with you put like a fake battery in the camera and the battery has like a wire and that's like a whole Yeah. Another battery.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's like a whole another and then, yeah, Cam Link wire and then yeah. It's it's a it's a lot and
Speaker 2:what My light is giant.
Speaker 1:Yes. Do you
Speaker 2:have a giant key light? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You see what I did though, I just went with I'm just gonna I didn't choose to go with this dark aesthetic but it's just because I don't want this giant thing. My room is small so I feel like it's gonna get super hot.
Speaker 2:I've never I've never seen pictures of your office. I don't actually know what it looks
Speaker 1:take well, the reason I don't share pictures is because my cable management is terrible. So anything any picture facing this way, like, towards my computer, it just looks terrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Does it is it good aside from the camera and lights and stuff? Like, do you have your computer cable management sorted out?
Speaker 1:My desk is fine. Yes. My desk is fine. Yeah. But, like, behind my desk on the floor is terrible.
Speaker 1:And you can see it when you take a picture. Yeah. So
Speaker 2:Well, send me a picture. You don't have to put it on the Internet,
Speaker 1:but I
Speaker 2:wanna see
Speaker 1:I'm definitely not sending you a picture. You're like the most OCD person.
Speaker 2:I just wanna understand. I feel like if I see someone's working space, I understand them better, you know?
Speaker 1:That's true. I don't know if I want you to understand me like this though.
Speaker 2:That's funny. So the linear thing. Linear is real good. And I heard people saying something like, oh, I use Notion instead. Talk about a contrast.
Speaker 2:Notion's like the slowest thing I've ever used in my life. It is so bad. How do people use Notion? I don't understand it.
Speaker 1:So Liz is like a Notion power user. Like, she should she just like start a Discord or or something where she just like Yeah. Teaches people Notion. But even she says now she said that it used to be really fast and now they've added every single feature possible. Like, they've added linear features to it, they've added air table features to it and it's just kinda becoming this super app and it's gotten a lot slower.
Speaker 2:I was hoping it had gotten faster because I haven't used it in a couple years. I was thinking maybe it was just growing pains and it's gotten better. You're saying it's gotten slower?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because even she even she says now it's like, she doesn't know if she loves it anymore. She does like really crazy stuff in there but just avoiding that bloat. If you can just avoid bloat oftentimes, like, that's all you need to when your product just stays very good for a long time.
Speaker 2:I have the personality that, like, I've downloaded Notion. I think I did this in a GitHub project too. I spent like a week where I just dump like so much information into some big project management thing and, like, try and, like, get every little detail that I could possibly track in there and then I never look at it again, like, ever. Yep. And I never learn.
Speaker 2:I'll do it again in a year or so and then I'm back to this conversation again.
Speaker 1:But Yeah. It's just how you know when you're it's like what role you should have at a company organization. I'm the same way where I let thing like if I so I'll try to use some of these tools and I'll get really excited and I'll use them well for a couple of days and then I'll kind of I'll kind of fall off the habit. Yeah. And stuff falls through the cracks and I'm not really keeping track of things.
Speaker 1:And then there's people like Liz who are just like, she's so she's just so good at keeping everything, like not letting anything fall through and just like making sure everything happens. Yeah. Like, clearly one person is supposed to be a CEO, the other person is supposed to be the person listening to the CEO so Yes. It's just a personality thing. I feel like you can't like really get better at it.
Speaker 2:Cool. I'm not gonna try. I'm gonna try to remember that but I don't need to try.
Speaker 1:Are you like that in your family as well? Like, does your wife take care of making sure everything happens?
Speaker 2:So what needs to happen? I guess like when we go on vacation, I'm the one who kind of organizes like, I do all the logistics, you know, flights, hotels,
Speaker 1:stuff Actually, same. I I generally do the logistics for the vacation as well. That's like the only thing I do.
Speaker 2:But once we get there, in terms of like planning out the fun activities, that's more Casey.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But I have like when you said family, I did I remember setting up in Notion like I was like just asking Casey all kinds of questions every day like because I was trying to create OKRs for our family. Like, what are things we wanna try and it was like what I learned about OKRs and then everything I saw was through the lens of OKRs. Don't set up OKRs for your family. That's the dumbest thing ever. It was so stupid.
Speaker 1:Or for your company. Just just don't just don't do OKRs
Speaker 2:for There your you go. Yeah. Probably it came out of Google, right? If it came out of Google, probably just don't do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Google's dead. So that's a it's almost linear thing. So I just talked to the linear guy for past hour. It was really good.
Speaker 1:Think my goals with that, which is to highlight two points, which I think we're able to get to. One, and we talk about this a lot where they're differentiated, which is quality. Existing market idea is very clear. So it's very counter to a lot of, you should be embarrassed by what you ship philosophies. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think we we kind of talked about that a good amount. The other side was like this local first approach, that's a more technical thing. But more on that first thing, I saw a thread the other day where someone was arguing that, a lot of that advice around like ship really, I don't I don't wanna butcher this because I think there's nuance here. But again, this idea of like, if you're not embarrassed by what you shipped, you shipped too late. The person was arguing that this is a little this kind of outdated devi outdated advice and it made more sense in an era where there was not a crazy amount of software and a crazy amount of competition.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And she was saying with her her own company, that's what they did and it just didn't go anywhere because it it sucked. It just was not a good product. And they really spent time making a very very good product upfront and then hitting the market with it and that went way better just because there's so much competition, like, really need to differentiate on quality these days. So he was arguing that The bar
Speaker 2:is much higher.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That would that that debate was different.
Speaker 2:And that's what they did, right? Like, did they from the start, they were like, we're gonna make the best possible app. Yeah. And I didn't hear that part.
Speaker 1:They were yeah, they were very clear. I asked on that what their initial pitch was and they were like, yeah, it's just on the execution. Like it's the the only reason we exist is to do this like a 100 times better than anyone's done it before.
Speaker 2:Did you ask him or do you know if they've like seen anybody, even incumbents start moving that way trying to compete on quality or are they just so far ahead that nobody's even trying?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I did ask but my my sense of it is, it's not the thing you like can just decide to do. It's like, we're gonna decide to be good now, you know.
Speaker 2:I think everyone's been trying
Speaker 1:to do that forever, but it's like a rare company that can actually execute that well.
Speaker 2:So when you talk you you say stuff on Twitter, like performance is about architecture and choosing an architecture that allows you to create experience, a really great performing app. That just sounds so, like, high level and abstract to me. Mhmm. Why don't you just start saying, like, the local first thing?
Speaker 1:Like, why
Speaker 2:what I don't hear that enough. And it's something that I feel like there is a correct answer. Like, if you wanna build something performant and fast, it's this way. Or I guess there's some apps that you can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I've been working towards it. I think more recently, I've been saying more explicitly, like, you need to evaluate this logo first approach. There's this company that has proved it out. It's not theoretical.
Speaker 1:I'm not, like, giving you some philosophy that I made up in my head because it sounds good. It's I, like, found it out of a product that is incredible. Yeah. And yeah, I'm sure people are gonna start to find me annoying then they're gonna like treat it like every other thing that gets kind of hyped.
Speaker 2:I don't think so, Dax. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:But yeah, but, I think my intention with this is a little bit different than other technologies. I think with other technologies, people get excited by it because they're like a user of it and they like are just interested in it. That's definitely an aspect of this but for me, I just want the apps everyone make. Like, I'm a user of an app, I just want it to be better. And this is like the thing that's blocking that from happening, like people not trying this approach.
Speaker 1:Every single app where I feel like it's slow. It's funny because, I think I've been ruined
Speaker 2:in a lot of ways
Speaker 1:because I spent so much time looking and researching and studying this that whenever I use an app that is not using these techniques, it's like painful for me to use because I notice every little like delay, I notice every little thing that they didn't do and it's painful. Like even using something like the Vercel dashboard where like, you know, they're like, the good web app company, everything just feels slow and lagging, there's spin, there's loaders everywhere and there's blank there's like loading states and empty states everywhere and it's like, I don't understand, like this, the the working set of data here is probably like a 100 kilobytes. Like, this could have just been all instant. So everything is just painful now and I feel like I can't really enjoy. I'm like ruined.
Speaker 2:Can you Yeah. Can you take me back to like your first experience with Linear, assuming that was the first app where you you saw When this you felt that speed, did you I mean, did you immediately just know what they were doing? Did you start, like, inspecting WebSocket connection messages and, like, figure out, oh, they're, like, syncing all that? How did that revelation come to you?
Speaker 1:So early on, I might be complaining with Superhuman because I Linear was up in the first app that I used that had this pattern and made me realize like, wow, stuff can be so good on web. But I had heard of Superhuman before that and their big pitch it was either them or Lina, I forgot who who it was, but they were like, every interaction in under fifty milliseconds or something. Like, they had some rule where like, no interaction can take longer than that. So I knew that that was impossible to do over like network round trips. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think I did start inspecting But
Speaker 2:the edge, Dax. Did you consider the edge?
Speaker 1:Yes, I did and it does not help. We're gonna skip right over that. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the guy I talked to, Tomas, he, he actually did give a talk, a long time ago. It's it's so funny because it's like one of the most influential impactful things I've ever listened to and it's like, it's not like some grand talk at some big conference. It looks like a little meetup. Like a little meetup and it's kind of camera that got a good weird angle and he's like giving this talk explaining the sync engine of linear. And And I think I I think I basically watched that and I was like, oh, okay, I see how all this works, like all the operations are local.
Speaker 1:Yeah, from then on, I've just been obsessed with this concept and I think in this interview, I talked a lot about that. But there's a lot more than that. There's like a lot of like UX patterns. I was talking about this earlier. I was arguing with Jay yesterday because, so Jay does all the design for our stuff.
Speaker 1:Our stuff looks really really good because he's very good design even though he's not a designer. But I had a point disagreement with him because and this is gonna sound so stupid, right? Everyone that hears this is gonna be like, that's the type of stuff that people waste time on, so that should be in their product. But I'll tell you exactly what we're arguing about. For clickable elements, like, let's was like this tab thing that you click on.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh. He made it so when you mouse over it, there's a fade in transition to like light up the element and there's a fade out transition. Mhmm. And I was arguing that we should take out all fade in transitions because they make the app feel slightly slower. It doesn't feel as snappy.
Speaker 1:And this is something I discovered in linear because I was do the animations feel so good? Oh, it's because when you mouse over, the response is immediate so it feels like you're not waiting for something to finish. Yep. But then when you mouse out, you saw that nice like fade out so it feels like a nicely animated app. So they do all these like little tiny tiny tiny things.
Speaker 1:Another great example is if you're hovering over something, you get a and you get a tool tip and you move to something else because you're like, okay, I want to do a tool tip for this one. You don't get this thing where the first tool tip disappears and there's a delay for the second tooltip to show up. They know you're going from an open tooltip to probably another open tooltip so they just show the second tooltip right away. But if you mouse out and it come back, then there's little bit of delay just to confirm that it's really what you wanna do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's like in detail. It's That's like Yeah. All the general advice would be like, do not that's a waste of time. Right? And there's just infinite stuff like that in there.
Speaker 2:Why are we all so bad? We're all just so bad at building like, why why isn't everybody doing this? Why isn't everybody is it just too hard? It's hard. Is it too hard for the average developer to care about all these little things?
Speaker 1:It's hard and I feel like there just has to be so much else not sapping your energy. Like, you know, 0% of my time or energy is sapped because, you know, I'm using Jira and I hate using Jira or like, I don't like the I don't like the way my manager manages me or like Yeah. My company is doing something stupid. I feel like all those micro things just make it so you just don't have energy to try. Because I feel like you the things you work on, you've tried pretty hard But you go you go crazy on the details.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because I don't have those things sapping my energy. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, just work by yourself or in a tiny company and a lot of those things go away, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's why I think like companies can't just decide to like do this one day. It's like you have to like commit to that from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Like GitHub. I wish GitHub were all this stuff local first, super snappy. And why couldn't there be?
Speaker 2:Why couldn't there be a a GitHub competitor? Why have we all just penciled in GitHub? It's down like more than any app I use all the time. Like, why What's the point? Like, why couldn't somebody commit?
Speaker 2:Like, I look at the Bitbucket and GitLab. They're just worse. I mean, they're just worse apps. Yeah. So if somebody go in and just say, I'm gonna make the best possible Git repository app with pull requests and whatever, Make the linear of GitHub.
Speaker 2:That needs to happen. Somebody's gonna do that. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that the interesting thing with GitHub though, and I've been reflecting on this because of because of threads. Have you seen the thing with threads where they're like they're definitely like the hype is the initial hype is done now they drop Yeah. Like I've used
Speaker 2:it and forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They drop like 50% daily active users or something. Yeah. I don't know how that's gonna play out but let's assume that threads like guys is, you know, they like couldn't really find their footing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like a crazy demonstration of how powerful and we all know network effects are powerful but like, this is like an insane demonstration where Twitter's established network is so powerful that Facebook can like airdrop an app to a billion people and it still can't defeat it. So I kinda wonder if GitHub is in a similar situation because they are a little bit social.
Speaker 2:The social side of GitHub, has it ever really stuck though? Do people, like, go to GitHub and, like, look at the homepage? Or I don't know. I'm always just going directly into a repo, directly to pull requests. Like, the interactions I have on GitHub, I never think about the fact that I have a profile on GitHub.
Speaker 2:Maybe other people do. Maybe I'm just kinda I'm not a huge open source guy, I so probably spend less time in there than the average person. But I feel like you just if you started with a few big names, got people to put their repos on your thing and use your kind of beta test your much better app, like, they're not gonna use GitHub. They're using your thing now. And like, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It seems less, like, entrenched than something like Twitter to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. It's it's definitely true. I guess I was thinking more about that about the open source side where, like, you probably wanna put it on GitHub because want collaborators and like, people open issues there Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:To know about. So there's like a thing there. The social stuff, the actual social stuff, yeah, it's like pointless. But I guess you do make a good point like, technically GitLab exists and you could instead of shooting a dethroned GitHub, you could shoot to dethroned GitLab and that's already like a massive market. And yeah, you would just need to capture people that don't need their stuff to be on GitHub.
Speaker 1:That's Yeah. Sometimes but yes, I guess you're right. Someone could could do this. This could be a that could be a fantastic product.
Speaker 2:Do it and remember us when you're famous and and when we're
Speaker 1:Give us percentage.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. Get we'll take a cut and we'll wanna have you on the epi on the the podcast sometime to talk about it. Yeah. Just like we talked to the linear guy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like how did you make such a great app? Oh, because you heard it on this podcast? Tell us more about this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The thing that sucks about that was all the git stuff. I feel like you need to spend like a year becoming an expert on Git to become a Git host.
Speaker 2:But would you how much does GitHub really like I feel like there's so much in Git that is not really manifested in GitHub. You don't do any I mean, they don't have deep integration with, like, doing weird Bisex stuff or like
Speaker 1:That's
Speaker 2:true. Right? It's just like pull requests, issues. What else? I'm oversimplifying like crazy.
Speaker 2:This is probably some developer trope. But like, could build GitHub in like a weekend. Come on.
Speaker 1:Well, I just think about how like, it needs to be stored as a Git repository but then it needs to be queryable as like a typical web app. So it's like, kinda need to store Yeah. In the database and like, you store like each like commit and like the diffs and and all that so
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Some amount some amount of effort. I don't know what it is but
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess like thinking of the local first thing like but like the working set of memory on a huge repo, if you're searching local first through that repo, how much data are we talking?
Speaker 1:Not a lot. You'd be surprised at how small data
Speaker 2:is. Text is small?
Speaker 1:Because I I think you would you don't you wouldn't need to store you wouldn't need the contents necessarily of every single diff. Locally, you might just need the metadata. There's like there's like ways you can be creative in it and and do it. For me, it's more about just like the issue tracking and like, the pull requests and just kind of like the I don't searching through the history, maybe not that important, but just like finding a file in the repo, right, the current file. Just things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I feel like somebody's gonna do this. Maybe somebody's already started. They've already raised their little seed round and they're already working on the linear quality GitHub replacement.
Speaker 1:I want this for and I tweeted about this hoping someone would do it. I think someone did is is kind of doing it, but I want this for a SQL client as well. I want a SQL client that lives in my browser tab. Yes. I don't wanna install
Speaker 2:something. 1000%.
Speaker 1:Yes. It needs to be super fast. And because I'm using PlanetScale, I should just be able to OAuth connect to PlanetScale and they have an OAuth thing in beta now. And just build me the fastest, most responsive SQL client in my browser. And I will pay
Speaker 2:Every time I've had to download some form of a like a query tool thing for connecting databases, like, I don't know, a dozen times in my career. And every time it's the same, like, what do people use for this? Like, there's gotta be something good, and there never is. No. It's always like PG Admin or whatever.
Speaker 2:I just hate every second of it. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Somebody do that too.
Speaker 2:We're just gonna let's just let's throw out all the ideas here. Request for startups. Yeah. Got any others? Anything else you wish existed?
Speaker 1:Here's the thing that I've been trying to get my friend to build. I want how do I explain this? So I want a tool that lets me connect all my bank accounts and my credit cards and all of that stuff. Mhmm. But it's not a financial planning app at all.
Speaker 1:All I need to do is connect all those and let me set up places to pipe it to, kinda like a Zapier type of situation. So I can say like, any transaction over $100, send it to my Slack. Or any transaction for this card, send me an email or like put it in a spreadsheet. I just wanna like pipe stuff and I wanna fix stuff in one place. So I wanna say like, okay, this thing has got categorized wrong.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna fix it in this app. Yeah. So everything downstream has it has it correct. This is something that that I wanted for you.
Speaker 2:Was just gonna say, yeah, you just reminded me QuickBooks. I want a new QuickBooks. A better That's another one. Quality QuickBooks. Simpler.
Speaker 1:You know what? This is just like linear because how many QuickBooks alternatives are there? Like, a 100? There's so many.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they're all terrible.
Speaker 2:They're not good. Yeah. They're not they don't just like immediately, you know, just get hooked on the product experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the the one of the things that that Tomas said was, they the way they thought about initially was no project management tool focuses on the IC, like giving a good experience for the person actually doing the tasks.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I think in the QuickBooks world, it's like, for me and you, we're like, we're not like a real small business. We're like,
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This weird thing where we're kind of just independent. And no one has really executed on that really well because QuickBooks, 99% of the UI, I don't need to touch. The UI is also always changing. I can never find the invoices, like, I can never find it.
Speaker 1:Recurring invoices hidden somewhere. It's just like, no one is focused on that. No one has built a good I want it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You've you've got me wanting to build like a spa. I just wanna like play with all this stuff now. Like replicash and build a local first thing.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of work. Like I said, I will say, like, it took us took me a very long time to get good at building this way and now we start a new project. With me having that knowledge, yeah, it took me a month before, like, things were even, like, set up correctly. I mean, now people can just clone that result.
Speaker 2:Terms of, like because so replicash, it's like a front end library.
Speaker 1:It's only a front end library. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then you have to implement the whole back end for it.
Speaker 1:Back end protocol. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are there guides? Is there can you like package that up into an SST contract or something that people can just use for like a vanilla synchronization back end?
Speaker 1:Well, there's there's definitely guides that document the protocol. That's how I how I did it plus poking around some of their example implementations. It can't be a construct because it requires, like, just stuff everywhere. Like, your front end needs be structured in a certain way, your back end needs to be structured in a certain way, like, domain logic needs to be structured in a certain way. There's just, like, transaction requirements on your database.
Speaker 1:You can't use Dynamo, you have to use a SQL database. So I think our project, like the ST console, people should just copy that and like
Speaker 2:It's like a template repo. We need
Speaker 1:to extract that onto a template without without all the the console specific stuff but Yeah. There's just a lot of patterns I had I've had to invent. Like I wanted type safety end to end just like tRPC and that's something I had to figure out myself. So it took a But now that we have up and running, like I've we've been shipping features like so so quickly. That's another weird benefit.
Speaker 1:Not only is it good for the user, but adding new features like, I need to store this new thing and synchronize it, it's just like very very easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Alright. It makes sense that it would be. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why are I feel like the whole web dev focus right now is so far from this. Yeah, know. And I don't know why. Are more site is the sites versus app thing actually a thing? What are you what is your opinion on that?
Speaker 2:Have I asked that before?
Speaker 1:I put that poll out the other day. I asked, the thing you work on for work, not your made up side project that doesn't exist. What is it described best as a site or as an app? Think 70% of people said it was an app. So Really?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Even on Twitter.
Speaker 2:So do you do you believe that distinction is a real distinction? Is that some weird artifact of the way things used to be and it will go away or are there actual fundamental distinctions? Should some apps be more site like? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Go ahead. So I think I'm in the conservative camp of yes, there is a very clear difference in everything that I do, I like delineate between these two things. It makes a lot of sense for me and I go to one extreme or another. I think a lot of these modern frameworks are trying to push forward the idea of like, no, there isn't a there you can have a framework that kind of does it all and does it all like progressively all that stuff. I have never seen an app I've never seen an incredible app like Linear shipped with a product like that.
Speaker 1:So I don't I refuse to believe it.
Speaker 2:And I get
Speaker 1:I think rationally, I I can point out to why I don't think it's possible. But I'm not even gonna argue that cause I'm like, just show me a product until you do. Don't have to like really consider it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it makes sense that they're just fundamentally different. Like if you're approaching a site where people are just there for a moment and then they're gone
Speaker 1:Very different.
Speaker 2:And it's like very different than if they're gonna be there for a like they're using it every day for hours. It's just a very different thing that I would think fundamentally those are two separate Yeah. Concerns.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm sticking with that. There are there is a difference but I think people do wanna try to blur that a little bit. But yeah, people would self describe it as 70% of people.
Speaker 1:I work on it.
Speaker 2:So 70% of people build apps and and and what are we focused on? Server side rendering, RSCs. Yeah. It's a Interesting.
Speaker 1:I hate using this argument because it's like kind of the idiot's argument. But if you look at these stats and you look at where all the conversation is, like, you need something to explain that discrepancy and I it just has to the only explanation is like the the financing of the something like the money poured into some of these areas. Everyone is saying that or not everyone, 7% people are saying that this stuff isn't relevant for me, why is that just the topic that keeps coming up? It just has to be something like something influence what would otherwise be the natural A
Speaker 2:market inefficiency.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or yeah, I guess. So it's like a waste of money in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A VC bet that takes years to play out and then
Speaker 1:Maybe doesn't.
Speaker 2:Potentially yeah, maybe doesn't. Do you think I've seen some people kinda grumbling on Twitter about like the complexity of the web. I mean, this is always a recurring theme that, like, things are getting so complex and it's that things are getting so complex for some perceived developer experience benefit. Do you think if things are getting more complex that they're actually benefiting the developer experience, or is that sort of counter to the goal of improving your developer experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was actually gonna post something about that because I was seeing that as well. Things getting more complex for a good reason. It's like the linear reason. It got more complex because you're chipping something really crazy that was crazy than anything else it's been before it.
Speaker 1:And that's what we're trying to do with custom
Speaker 2:your tasks. I don't know if people understand this. But like, if you have tasks, you can really you can manage them so fast. Sorry. Continue.
Speaker 2:It's it's crazy.
Speaker 1:Blazingly fast, as I say. But if you look at our package JSON, it's under 40 lines.
Speaker 2:Wait. Your package JSON is under 40 lines? Is that a flex?
Speaker 1:I actually think it is. I'm gonna post it and I think people are gonna look at it and they're gonna be like, that's a lot smaller than my package JSON.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. No. I I think just it sounds over like a voice medium that just doesn't sound impressive. Like, my package JSON is less than 40 lines, people. I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The implication there is we have very few dependencies and like, you know, there's not really a lot going on to achieve this thing. And I'm talking about the front end side. So on some hand, I think a lot this complexity is opt in. I think people like smash together like way more libraries than they need and they put together way more tools than they really need.
Speaker 1:So if we're able to achieve a pretty high bar with a dependency set that's like probably half the size of what we guess most most projects are
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There some some amount of that is self inflicted. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I will say like my SST projects, I love my TSConfig, my package JSON. I love the the, like, boilerplate files, how small and concise they are. I think there's just, like there's no definitive guides out there that are like, hey. Don't just, like, craft your TSConfig or don't just craft whatever.
Speaker 2:Like, derive from these things. Mhmm. There's some, like, known ones that are good. And I wouldn't have found that on my own. I don't know how you find all this stuff, but it's so nice to see that kinda concise jokes aside, like, this the concise package JSON and and just it does feel like SST, you guys have thought through, like, a TypeScript monorepo project was a nightmare.
Speaker 2:And now I feel like in SSLand, there's some sanity. I can kind of like see all the lines and understand them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's that we like because we ship templates and starters and all that if we need to for help people use it. And it hurts us whenever we have to ship like an extra config file or like because we know like the first impression of it is now like x percent worse. I do think obsessing over that is rational because of what you said like then you can kind of understand it easier and it just feels lighter weight.
Speaker 1:It does come to judgment at the end of the day. I think for me, I've swung more in this way because I've, had some interactions with people that are like on the extreme of like anti tool, like, even use TypeScript because that involves a compile step and like, there's like the extreme on that side. I don't go that far because I can't ship the stuff I need to ship using that model. But I have been influenced by them to like double check, can this be simpler? Like, do I actually need this?
Speaker 1:Is a benefit of this gonna last? But there's a judgment thing, so we don't put ESLint in our templates. Yeah. And I think most people would probably disagree with that. So, you know, it's reasonable to add ESLint.
Speaker 1:But for us, like, don't we don't use Lint things. So there's some amount of, like, judgment zone of judgment you have to decide on for yourself.
Speaker 2:I do like the linting thing when you I remember you telling me that you didn't use ESLint when I was complaining about configuring ESLint. And it's like, I realized so much redundancy. Like, why do I want linting? I mean, a lot of it's built into the language server for the language I'm using. Why why do I need this extra thing that is so notoriously hard to configure?
Speaker 2:Or, like, just I don't wanna have so many options. I don't like like, oh, I gotta think about which linting errors I care about, and I gotta configure my ASLN accordingly. I I wish, like I I wanna use all these tools and just not have to think about them. And and that's man, if Prettier would just default to no semi phones That's I could stop thinking about
Speaker 1:Prettier config. It's a one piece of configuration that I need to do. Yeah. But yeah, that's actually exactly it because I I don't it's not piece of people hear I don't use linting, they think I'm opposed to the concept of linting. I'm not.
Speaker 1:I want linting. I like really want that as part of my workflow. Yeah. But right now the cost of that is like you said, I would love to just be able to grab ESLint and use it. But as soon as I try to do that, there's some dumbass rule that's enabled by default and to go like somehow find the name of rule, remember how the config works and turn it off.
Speaker 1:It's not built into my editor after like Uh-huh. That overhead as much as I want linting is just not worth it for me and every code base I jump into is like slightly different because they have different rules turned on. I go, I want it. It's just is that really worth it? And I don't think it is long term.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of pain. Yeah. A lot
Speaker 2:of pain. Yeah. I've I've long hated the dance of, like, I'm trying to get Node with TypeScript with Prettier and ESLint configured and it's a day of my life that I won't get back. I hate that so much. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I do love the SST create SST app. Like, just it's handled, it's a mono repo, I know how to structure stuff. I think that's where frameworks really really can shine.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's again, I think since yesterday, the hardest thing in the JavaScript world is like convincing people to use fewer tools. Like almost every repo I go into, I'm like ugh. Like, there's just so much here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Why is it just what is it about JavaScript developers or this JavaScript community that just struggles with consensus? I feel like other places just kinda like everybody that decides this is what we're gonna do. I mean, that's not fair. Guess, like, I'm going back to Python in my mind and, like, you've got different mostly everyone uses black for formatting, but you've got different, you know, the pep
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. I understand. For letting.
Speaker 2:There's like Yeah. Well, that too. Yeah. The bifurcation of two verse three. But, like, I think that's probably less of an issue now.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about the, like, pep and flakes and all the different linting styles people use. Why can't we all just decide, like, this one's best. We're just using it. Nobody should have to think about this again. I just I don't care enough about those things that it bothers me when people care so much that they'll, like, maintain a competing thing when there already was a thing and it was fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think it's like, these other languages have strong leaders that are effectively dictators that can kind of define that and have like a heavy
Speaker 2:Oh, right. Yeah, the benevolent dictator. Maybe we
Speaker 1:need to stage some kind of coup and, like not really a coup because no one's in charge, but maybe there needs to
Speaker 2:be,
Speaker 1:like maybe we need to think about it, like, I am trying to become a dictator of JavaScript. Like, what do I need to do to take over?
Speaker 2:Dax, I will I will submit to your dictatorship. Please take over and just put us all out of our misery. It's so bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, that goes in line with your, like, package manager, like or package standards thing.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So that maybe that's my wedge. I start to do that. I start to gain way too much power and then I start to, like,
Speaker 2:really Okay.
Speaker 1:Use it for evil.
Speaker 2:Well, don't take it dark. No. No. No. Stop.
Speaker 2:Just stop at the part where you're a benevolent dictator and the JavaScript ecosystem is better for it. When I think about this, I think there's a real path because if people tried to, like, start challenging your power, it's like, can they explain ESM better than you? And they can't. You you win on all those arguments. If they could explain, like, ESM versus what's that one called?
Speaker 2:CJS better than you, then they get to be the leader, but they won't.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing. I don't believe that rational arguments like that actually actually hold.
Speaker 2:Think Yeah. It's true.
Speaker 1:So the only way to actually win is if anyone argues with me, I just make fun of them till they just
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:Just like submit.
Speaker 2:They're like, this isn't worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This isn't worth the personal pain I feel. So I think that's actually the path.
Speaker 2:And the beard, I mean, you've got that thick, wise beard. You've really got a lot going for a year. I think we could make this happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Who's gonna oppose you? We could get people powerful friends on our side here pushing you to the top.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:This needs to happen. We need it, Dax.
Speaker 1:If you wanna write a line of JavaScript, you gotta ask me first.
Speaker 2:You go through Dax. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I tweeted that jokingly when I moved to Miami. I was like, if you wanna write TypeScript in this town, you better see me first. Oh, I
Speaker 2:love it. I'm making this happen. I'm gonna do everything in my power, which is not very much. But I'm gonna do everything I can to try and promote DAX as the dictator we all need and deserve.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's it's kind of like I it's one of those situations where I'm like a little bit foreign because I'm not like I came into the JavaScript world as like, after doing a lot of other stuff. So it's like a foreign invader situation. I like it.
Speaker 2:Is that better or worse? I like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I like it. It's
Speaker 2:good. It's good.
Speaker 1:It's kinda like when you see, people that are like committing genocide, it turns out like their background is like one of those people also. They like kinda hate themselves. So it's good to think it's kinda like that where that's what it needs.
Speaker 2:You kinda hate yourself? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Hate the part me that's a JavaScript developer. Like I hate it. Like you need
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:You can't have someone that likes the fact that they're JavaScript developer. I feel like I have to be one. I didn't choose to be one. I have to be one given all these other all these
Speaker 2:other That sounds very much like the backstory for a dictator. Yeah. Yep. Love it. Okay.
Speaker 2:We're gonna make that happen. Did I tell you I'm a martial artist now?
Speaker 1:Someone was talking about you and martial arts in the chat a second ago.
Speaker 2:I'm a martial artist.
Speaker 1:Don't know
Speaker 2:if I'm an artist of sorts. I did jujitsu today. My first time.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Okay. I didn't really do it. I What
Speaker 1:do mean you you
Speaker 2:I was there for an hour and they taught us some things. But he it's like this class and they there's no, like, oh, you're a beginner. You go to the beginner No.
Speaker 1:Of not.
Speaker 2:It's just the class. And this purple belt guy who is very kind and built like a bowling ball taught me lots of things. It's very physical. It's a very physical sport. I don't know
Speaker 1:if you know this
Speaker 2:about jiu jitsu. And
Speaker 1:that's that.
Speaker 2:It's a it's this guy's hands were very strong. And when he grabbed my my gi Yes. And threw me around
Speaker 1:Oh, you got you got you got did you buy the outfit already?
Speaker 2:I did. Yes. They had them there. They had the gi Cool. There.
Speaker 2:It's it's gonna be good. I think I'm gonna get obsessed. And it's like, I'm just doing it for fitness. Like, I don't I'm not looking to, like, beat people up in the streets. But but it's nice to, like, I don't know, roll around.
Speaker 2:My legs are already sore. It was an hour.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And I'm gonna do some, like, private lessons to try and get caught up a little bit because I felt like an idiot just like Flowing around. All the words. Yeah. I don't know
Speaker 1:if you
Speaker 2:know how many words there are in jujitsu. There are so many words. And I feel like I do need to just be thrown into it a little bit. They just need to actually wrestle me. Like, just hurt me.
Speaker 1:Physically thrown into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just just toss me around, like make me figure out what it really feels like because I didn't get to do that today. I'm hoping maybe tomorrow.
Speaker 1:We'll see. Interesting. Yeah. And you're like a good size for it too. My friend has gotten really into jujitsu.
Speaker 1:I think he's above six feet tall but he's extremely skinny, like he's six feet tall and he like weighs the same as I do. I'm like
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:He loves it, he's super into it but just given his like physical makeup, like he can only Yeah. Do so much as much as his skills improve.
Speaker 2:Even me, I worry I'm too wiry. Like, after seeing some of the people in this class and even the instructor. The instructor's built kinda like this guy that helped me today. They're just very thick and vivid.
Speaker 1:Like square people. Sturdy.
Speaker 2:Yes. Square. Yeah. Yeah. That's the word.
Speaker 2:Like, I played football, but, like, I'm not I'm not that kinda stout. And I could see how there's a lot of leverage advantage if you're kind of, like, lowered the ground. Don't know. We'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's fine. Did they so they have they have that in the Ozarks.
Speaker 2:They have it. So honestly, I've thought about doing something like this, like getting into some kind of fitness like martial arts thing for a long time. I used to do tai chi at home just like YouTube stuff, and I just assumed there wasn't really good options close. There's five minutes from my house. There's this what do they call it?
Speaker 2:Club? Gym? Yeah. There's a jujitsu place. It's Brazilian jujitsu.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're up to speed. This is specifically the Brazilian variant. I don't know. Actually, I have no idea if that's just, the default. But it's five minutes from my house.
Speaker 2:Five star Google reviews, like, 300 reviews. The people in there were so incredibly nice and welcoming for, like, a guy that knew nothing. Literally, it was like, have you ever trained before? No. I've literally I know nothing.
Speaker 2:Not a single word of it. I know jujitsu. That's what I know. But they were so good and, like, didn't make me feel like I was slowing them down or it was great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's big. I mean, so when I worked at, Boulevard, in and this was back then. In the elixir community, Brazilian jujitsu is is pretty big. And it kinda seems random but then the founder of Elixir is from Brazil, so I wonder if there's like some kind of tie in there.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. A lot of people Yeah.
Speaker 1:On that team did that. And I was like, this is really random. And now it's like, software engineers in general, there's a lot there's a ton of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I he asked me the instructor at the end asked me what I do. I said, I'm a software developer. We got a few people in here that are software developers. Introduced me to someone on the EC two team.
Speaker 2:What? An engineer at AWS on the EC two team. Wow. How wild
Speaker 1:That's weird. Here at
Speaker 2:Nixa. But he's actually moving back to Seattle in, like, two weeks because they're making everybody come back to Seattle to be with your team.
Speaker 1:Why is he there?
Speaker 2:Like, is
Speaker 1:he from there?
Speaker 2:I think that's where he's from.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Wow. Did you tell him that you never used EC 2?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, no.
Speaker 1:You're like, cool. I try to avoid using EC 2 at all costs.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like, I know what EC 2 is. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean, EC 2 is like the original servers. I wonder if he's been there from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. And it power I mean, can only imagine being on that team. Like, it powers everything above it. Like, everything else depends on EC two. So we don't directly use it much.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, it was a it was an experience. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm already obsessed. I'm already looking up, like, stuff on the Internet. I'm gonna go every day.
Speaker 2:We'll see.
Speaker 1:That's exciting.
Speaker 2:I'll report back.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, just because it's so convenient, you have to do it. It's like, why go to that CrossFit gym? Because it's at the end of my street. Yeah. We convene Five
Speaker 2:minutes away. There's nothing in The Ozarks is five minutes from you. Like, everything is usually, like, fifteen minutes. So the fact that I can just drive five minutes and it's right there, it's awesome.
Speaker 1:You can can can your kids do
Speaker 2:it? They can. I actually took Asa yesterday just to scope it out before I came today because it was, like, early in the morning, like 6AM. So I I took AC yesterday. So he also just did his first swim lesson.
Speaker 2:We we knew we wanted to get him in something like a thing on the schedule that he has to go to, you know, ideally, like a physical activity. So we were kinda considering, like, maybe he'd wanna do jiu jitsu. He saw all the people in there kinda wrestling around. He's a pretty, like, gentle guy. Like, he's a pretty caring and, like, doesn't wanna hurt anybody, doesn't want any I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think he felt like it was a little too
Speaker 1:It's definitely intimidating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was a little too rough for him just at first glance, but I think I could warm him up to it maybe. I'd love
Speaker 1:to Just throwing him around around the house.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There were no other kids there this morning, so I don't think he could go to that session. Think they have a kid session.
Speaker 1:So I have a funny story with martial arts. So when I was growing up, I did, a few things. And when I was when I was really young, was it probably was Taekwondo. I arrived to a class and I can't remember what it was. I think I missed the beginning.
Speaker 1:I missed some part of it. And we were we're doing grappling, okay? And I was paired with the only other kid in the class, was all adults, only other kid in the class. And he was a couple years older than me, so a lot bigger than me. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we would do it and he would immediately get me in a he would like chug me, like, between his knees. I didn't know what tapping out was. I did not know what tapping out was. So I would Oh, no. Just like, get choked Die.
Speaker 1:And like almost pass out and might be like, this is fucking terrible. I just didn't understand. Eventually, he would call time and I would like somehow I never passed out. But I would just I would just get like choked super hard. And then like, a couple classes later, I realized what tapping out was.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, this is so this makes me feel like this is so much better. And I started to enjoy it. So Wow. I remember my face, like, turning red.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're just depending on that kid having mercy, not being like, well, I guess I'm killing this kid because he's not down. From his point of view, he was like,
Speaker 1:I he just kept going harder and harder and harder because he he was trying get me to tap, and I didn't know that tapping out was a thing.
Speaker 2:I bet people get really hurt that way.
Speaker 1:And someone was asking in the chat, did you not know how to say please stop? Yeah. Try to talk while you're being choked. When your
Speaker 2:neck Something is in my head was like
Speaker 1:I didn't even think to to be honest, I didn't even think to like try to say stop. Because I wasn't trying to get in a stop. Was just like, this is the exercise. I get choked and I'm learning how to, like, be choked.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. Taekwondo. There you go.
Speaker 1:So the tip for you, tap out.
Speaker 2:What I've heard is, like, the arm stuff, like, could really
Speaker 1:The arm bar hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Have your arm hurt. Or yeah. They're just trying that the whole lesson that was like, we're learning all these kinda ways to to position yourself in certain contexts. And it's like, he's explaining to me, like, oh, no.
Speaker 2:If you don't straighten your arm right there, I'm gonna get you in a choke. And I'm like, that sounds awful. I don't I don't wanna be in a So Yeah. But they have all these other words for things they'll get you into. But I think I just need to be thrown.
Speaker 2:Think I just need to be, like, wrestling somebody trying to survive and just see how it feels and what all they do. I'm gonna ask them. I'm gonna say, can I actually wrestle someone, please, Or jujitsu somebody? What do
Speaker 1:you what
Speaker 2:do you say?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I roll around with somebody and see what it's really like.
Speaker 1:That's exciting. Everyone's getting into it. Yeah. Now I'm like, do I need to get into it? Because I I can't just have everyone around me, like, be able to beat me up.
Speaker 1:So it's kinda like a
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm never gonna do this with anybody that's not in a ghee in a studio or whatever.
Speaker 1:You never know. You might need to you might need to do something.
Speaker 2:Mean, I guess it is a skill. You never know, guess. Yeah. It's true.
Speaker 1:Someone you might get into a fight with your kids and you might need to, you know, put them in a choke hold. Sounds awful. I mean, I know you don't leave your house, so those are the only other people you could possibly interact with.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. I guess the only people I interact with. Yeah. Like that
Speaker 1:and the people at Mama Jeans. I
Speaker 2:I think I actually this came up because I started listening to the Lex Friedman podcast. And it turns out, Lex Friedman, don't know if you know this, his only qualification for guests that he have on the show are that they do jujitsu. I believe that's a requirement for all of his guests because I've listened to, like, three episodes. They all do jujitsu. So does Lex Friedman.
Speaker 2:Apparently, it's a either it's a tech thing and I'm only listening to the tech episodes or all of them are I don't
Speaker 1:know. There's definitely like a persona. Like, the Joe Rogan and Lex Friedman people are all, like, super into BJJ.
Speaker 2:Do I do I need to listen to Joe Rogan? Everyone always says that name too. Forever, people would be like, do listen to that Lex that Lex Friedman podcast? I'm like, no. Never heard of him.
Speaker 2:I don't know. But I also hear the same about Joe Rogan.
Speaker 1:Here's the problem. Both of these names are like now controversial names. So if you say, I'm listening to Joe Rogan, have a bunch of people like upset at you.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Why? Well, could you tell me give me the quick lowdown on why they're controversial?
Speaker 1:The historical reason is it's just like he was just like a normal interviewer or whatever, people weren't paying attention to him that much. And then he had a few people on that were controversial and people had the argument of like, you shouldn't even have people like this on because you're giving them a platform and he like refused So that like, created like a negative energy around him and now when there is like that type of thing, everything he says He's not he's not like the smartest guy. So everything he says is like scrutinized and made fun of, etc. He had a bunch of like vaccine related stuff as well. So I don't care about those things.
Speaker 1:I think the major I like listen to his stuff because there's people I like that go on his show, like Michael Pawn was on it. And like he does such long interviews, it's great to hear someone like that talk for three hours versus like a twenty minute Yeah. Thing.
Speaker 2:So that's what I noticed about Lex Friedman when I listened to a few of those. They're so long. Yeah. The the Carmack one's, like, five hours, which I think that was the longest. But still, like, it just blew my mind when I like, most of them are two, three hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think mostly I'm enjoying the people he's having on the show. But what is Lex Friedman also controversial?
Speaker 1:I think just because they're they're kinda all associated with some like, there's like this circle that's associated with it. So people
Speaker 2:Like the people who listen to Lex Friedman are considered a circle type of person? Lex Friedman and Joe
Speaker 1:Rogan, like, do stuff together and, like, they have those together. Yeah. And it's like Oh, okay. The guests are similar. The recurring guests are kinda similar.
Speaker 1:I know. I've never
Speaker 2:listened to the podcast,
Speaker 1:so I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. So I actually know more something about something in pop culture than you do. Interesting.
Speaker 1:That's true. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like how you're really controversial and I kinda get embroiled in that because I associate with you, and I just have to take on all of your controversy.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it's funny because I think technically the reverse has happened.
Speaker 2:Wait. What? Am I controversial?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like your whole controversial YouTube career.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting. I am controversial. I had to remove videos, multiple of them. Those are the ones you wanna see, the ones that they have to take down. Just like books in the library that you can't read.
Speaker 2:Like, the ones that are banned. My banned YouTube account, gonna have to check it out. Adam dot dev. Okay. That's nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There you go. Lex Friedman also had this thing where, he wrote he was like, I'm gonna read a book a week and he, like, made a list of books and everyone just, like, roasted him for it. So I was just, like, once people kinda get in this in the level of scrutiny, like, everything they do just gets made fun of like crazy.
Speaker 2:I mean, that seems like a noble goal to read a book every week. So, like, you learn a lot.
Speaker 1:It was, like, very mechanical where, like, it doesn't matter how, like, long the book was or how important the book was. Like, you just allocate a week to it or something like that. I don't know. Yeah. So I get why it was a little weird, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And these people are just everything they do just blows up in this way. So be careful. Be careful out there.
Speaker 2:I'll be careful. I will say the Lex Friedman when he had Andreessen on, so good. I could listen to to that stuff. Just felt like, I don't know, somebody who was there at the beginning, you know, the browser stuff at the very, very beginning.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Like, he chose the colors for hyperlinks, like blue and then purple when you visited it. Like, that's just cool. I wanna hear people like that talk more because I just have not had those kind of inputs.
Speaker 1:I've never listened to Marc Andreessen talk.
Speaker 2:I hadn't either. That was the first I'd ever heard him speak at all. Yeah. He actually talked about something not technical that was the most fascinating thing. The thing that I took away from it and had to tell my wife is about this book.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the title of the book now. You'll just have to go listen to that three hour episode. But he talked about this book. It was like a an ancient, like, Greco Roman historian or something that had, like, basically outlined human civilization in those early, like, early societies, how extreme and cult like, the the the basically, all of society was made up of these cults that were just, like, 100,000 times more extreme than what we would think of as a cult today. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:And that everyday life was so centered around survival that, like, it was just extreme. I mean, like, in ways we wouldn't recognize or we could never kind of fathom, but, like, everybody in that setting knew their place and they all had this, like, you woke up every day knowing exactly what you had to do or people around you could die. Yeah. Whereas today, we're so far away from survival that, like, we're just this very diluted down society that's there's, like, literally hundreds of thousands of times less intense. So we have all this, like, the clickbait and the fake drama and the, like, hot takes.
Speaker 2:It's all just so we kinda feel something because it's such a diluted down world that we live in compared to back then.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting when you start digging into that stuff. And it it touches on, like, religion and, like, all of these things, know, patriotism, like, ways that we try to create some semblance of of something that's like that because there's this part of us that sort of evolved with that. Really fascinating stuff. That blew my mind. I don't know how they got to talking about it, but I wanna read the book.
Speaker 1:Nice. That sounds interesting. Yeah. I've never really heard Marc Andrejen talk or I've never really even read stuff by him. I've read both of Ben Horowitz's books.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he has more than two, I've read both of them. And he I've, like, always really really liked him.
Speaker 2:Which one? Is he the subtle art and No.
Speaker 1:He What what did Ben Horowitz did the latest one was Who You Are Is What You Do which is all about company culture and the first one is The Hard Thing About Hard Things. Oh, Hard Thing About Hard Things. That's what
Speaker 2:I was thinking of. Yes,
Speaker 1:I have. Yeah. So the first half of the
Speaker 2:book It's been a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the first half of the book everyone will read the first part of the book in one sitting because it's just his story of like founding his company and insane ups and downs that they had like, they were in like one crazy scenario to the next to the next and next for like such a long period of time. It's like barely scraping by and like eventually making it. It's like thrilling to see how like they just came close to dying so many times. That's just like a fantastic story on its own.
Speaker 1:And all those lessons from that are are very very good. Again, it's one of the again, one of my 10 books I think. Yeah. And the second one about company culture is very good as well. I actually don't think I finished it.
Speaker 1:I think I read like like half.
Speaker 2:I check out when it's company stuff because it's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think what was interesting about the second one is he talks about establishing culture and of course uses some company examples, but then he uses like stuff that you wouldn't think of as a company, but a company is just an organization, organizations exist everywhere. So he talks about like how like like a mafia sets culture. Oh, interesting. And things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I remember Hard Things About Hard Things. I can remember exactly, like, what season of life I listened to that
Speaker 1:book. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I remember the gym I was working out in. I don't remember much about the book, but it's funny
Speaker 1:I can remember that. Was that when you were founding your company?
Speaker 2:No. It would have been well, let's see. We were living where we were when we were building this house. It's only
Speaker 1:been like four
Speaker 2:or five years ago. Okay. Yeah. Or three or four years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not that not that long ago. Nice. We've gone for an hour. Did you realize that?
Speaker 1:We've been going for an hour lately.
Speaker 2:We have. I guess this podcast is an hour long ago.
Speaker 1:Is that okay? Now that
Speaker 2:I listen to Lex Friedman, it's like
Speaker 1:This is short.
Speaker 2:Two and a half hours? No big deal. Yeah. This is just some quick easy listening. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you
Speaker 2:have anything else?
Speaker 1:No. That's all for me.
Speaker 2:Sure you don't wanna ramp it back up real quick? Alright.
Speaker 1:See you, Dex. Alright. See you.
