Dax uses arch and neovim, btw
I got off Twitter. I'm not on Twitter as much and I feel better for
Speaker 2:it. Coward. Wait. So you said you put your stream deck away. Why?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. What did you just change the subject? I was in the middle of, like, pondering lots of things. I moved my stream yeah. Got rid of my stream
Speaker 2:deck. I changed the subject from what was in your head.
Speaker 1:That's just incredible. I really stuck on, like, what has happened the last week? Okay. So I put away my stream deck. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was just it was kinda ugly. I was taking some pictures of my office. Like, I'm in this newsletter, Workspaces.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:It's like your desk in your office and just like, what does your stuff look like? So I had to put it away for that. I didn't want it on my it just they look awful. They're really, really helpful. They're very practical, but they look like a gamer thing or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I was gonna ask, is there an alternative to it? Because I haven't bought one yet for that reason. I'm like, this is it's like too much.
Speaker 1:So I think they may have come out with one. Elgato makes them. I think they may have come out with one that's white that looks a little better. There's also a thing called I have one. Loop Deck.
Speaker 1:And it looks really cool. It's got dials on it and stuff. It looks more like it's made more for, like, video editing and and, like, creative professionals, but it's just super buggy. Like, the software sucks, and it doesn't have as many buttons. And so I stopped using it.
Speaker 2:You think it would be less buggy on Linux? That's a joke.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Probably more buggy. There's a chance. It probably just wouldn't work, though. So I still can't believe you use Linux, like, every day.
Speaker 1:Just like you choose to do that.
Speaker 2:And I enjoy it and I love it and I had such a good time and I'm happy.
Speaker 1:Is it the same as, like, I do I love Neovim. Like, I've I've fully red pilled. I'm very into, like, the tinkering and the playing with it and I don't know. It's just fun. Is Linux the same or is it more annoying?
Speaker 2:I haven't tinkered with my Linux setup in a very long time. Probably similar to how you haven't really tinkered with your NeoVim in a very long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Once it's kind of settled.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just one of those things where I I'm like it's hard for me to give perspective on it because I have just been using it for so long and I just know how. Right. Right. Right.
Speaker 2:Right. Ten
Speaker 1:years. We we know. We know.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's
Speaker 1:Ten years. It's been ten years. Arch Linux, ten years. NeoVim, ten years. CrossFit, ten years.
Speaker 1:All of them. Just ten years. I've I've been plant based for ten years, so I hate that too. Like, I I just hate being like, no. I've I've done it for ten years.
Speaker 1:Like, I'm not just I didn't, like, change my entire lifestyle for a decade just to tell you I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan, by
Speaker 2:the way. Okay. That's the most annoying thing we listed, the vegan thing.
Speaker 1:I know. It is.
Speaker 2:Do you see a picture of the my my steaks and my brisket?
Speaker 1:What? No. When? You did it when you knew I was offline, didn't you?
Speaker 2:You felt tagged you in it and I was like,
Speaker 1:oh, really?
Speaker 2:No. This one maybe maybe they didn't. But no, this, this Sunday, I'd we made our first brisket ever.
Speaker 1:Didn't see it.
Speaker 2:It was very good. And it was not vegan, by the way.
Speaker 1:I would guess not. Yeah. Yeah. Vegan brisket sounds like a science experiment nobody needs to do. That just sounds like a bad idea.
Speaker 2:Going back to Linux thing, yeah, I, I don't know. It definitely is like that. I don't like, I'm trying to imagine at this point so let's say, I'm imagining at this point where I'm, like, really comfortable with my OS, switching to something completely different, like learning everything from ground up, like I would never do that at this point. It's like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Would absolutely not do that. Unless the upside was so high, so maybe you could see it that way. But yeah, like I wouldn't I can't switch to Mac OS now, like it would just break so much of my workflows. It'd be so frustrating.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, like, I believe you. But it's also very hard for me to imagine, like, at this point diving into Linux when I'm just I'm so used to using my Mac. Yeah. Is it just like the older you get, the more you're stuck in your ways?
Speaker 1:Is that the same dynamic here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. Which is the thing I think we should all try to fight against but it's just hard to like stay productive. Like, more responsibilities you have, the less you can like experiment, which is kind of what traps people in a lot of ways. I like knowing you, it's just like you do so much with, or maybe you don't or maybe I said about this point, may be similar to yours. I think you just have some equipment that just won't work.
Speaker 2:Oh, right. Specifically your your audio interface. Like I just spent a lot of time like really like researching and figuring out the right hardware to buy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So
Speaker 2:everything's just like a little bit more work. Everything's like 10 like 20% more work for everything you're trying to do. That's like not just using the OS, like doing media stuff. But at this point, everything works. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I get the the appeal. Like, NeoVim is more work, but it's just fun. It's a nice hobby. I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that actually does just work on Linux that people don't realize, like and not that this happens often, but, like, if you need to run a Docker container, it's not this, like, whole weird VM situation that you need to set up because everything is just native. So anytime you're doing work on stuff that typically runs in a server, it's just gonna like Mhmm. Work easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:People always run to
Speaker 1:this We run everything on Linux
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. In the cloud.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So people always run to this thing where they, like, try to deploy something from their machine. It has, a binary dependency, but the NPM pulled in the Mac OS version Yep. If you need the Linux version. But there's, like, a lot of, like, little things like that and that's actually the initial reason why I switched.
Speaker 2:I was just doing so much work in Linux on the server back when I had to think about servers. And I was like, there's just a lack of synergy here where I'm just using a completely different OS from my day to day. And if I just do one thing, I'm just gonna be getting better all the time. Kind of the same mindset behind using TypeScript on the back end and the front end. You just kind of start to get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. That I'm glad you said that. I saw some tweets. Maybe I saw your tweets.
Speaker 1:Do we do we really gain a lot from the same language on the back end and the front end? Is it is it just that we gain knowledge or is there actual, like, sharing of stuff? Types, I guess. That's what you just said.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, there's I think there's two layers to it. So for a long time, was skeptical because I I didn't get into Node. Js for a very long time. Like, I used I went through like two whole lifetimes of using since Node.
Speaker 2:Js came out, I like did two entirely different backend languages like for for years before I finally came around to Node. And people would always argue like same language back end, front end and I was like, I don't really care about that. Like, how hard is it to do two? And it's true, it's not that hard. Like, everywhere, like tons of people do it.
Speaker 2:Like, some people do it and there's no problem. But now that I switch, I have like something to compare to. And I do I have gotten so good at TypeScript, like way better than I was at other languages because I'm like I'm like basically doing it twice as much as any other language. I'm doing it on That makes sense. That's one side.
Speaker 2:Like you do generally get better in the now on the infrastructure as well. And the type sharing is a big thing. Like I use it everywhere. So I did this massive massive refactor yesterday ripping out, Kisly and swapping it with Drizzle for like one of the last projects that I that I had that was still that wasn't using Drizzle yet. And it took there was like a 100 something errors when I deleted Kisly to see like where I need to update stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Expanding across back end and front end because the types were shared and and things like that. And once I got through all 100 errors, I think it took me another ten minutes of, okay, now let me actually try to run it to get it all working. And that's because like stuff would just share entirely end to end and any breaking changes I made on the back end was immediately obvious on the front end. I typically don't do breaking changes like that but for something like this, I was fine with it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's these situations that I think about what it would have looked like in my previous setup and yeah, would have been a lot more difficult. So yeah, there is a lot of benefit and I do think that it's it's impossible for another language to like catch up to this part of it, but it is possible for TypeScript to become better and Node. Js to become better. So I'm more betting on yeah, like JavaScript ecosystem sucks but I think it's easier to make that better than to like catch up how does other languages catch up to these features?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because the browser is always gonna run JavaScript, so I guess there's that. Unless
Speaker 2:Everyone has to learn it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like the Wasm stuff, that's not JavaScript. Right? You can just write like, I don't know, c plus plus or something dumb. What what do you do with Wasm?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's funny, like, I I use a I use Wasm as like a weird, test. What's it called? Not like a red flag because it's that's a little bit extreme.
Speaker 1:A Rorschach test? Is that what you're going for?
Speaker 2:It's like a signal. Because I always hear people say very confidently, oh, like the future is looking more and more like it's gonna be Wasm or like something like that. Whenever I hear someone say that, know that they've never they don't know what the hell they're talking about. Because this has been this has been a thing that people have been saying forever and it just feels like a thing that's gonna happen but it's been years and years and years and years and years and, like, WASM has, like, great use cases but, like, to say that, oh yeah, like all serverless stuff is gonna run-in Wasm on the back end and Wasm on the front end, etcetera. Like, it's just something that people say.
Speaker 2:I don't I think very few
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Figma though is a great example of what Wasm enables, like delivering a desktop quality app through the web. Like, it would not have been possible without it but, yep. Yeah. I don't think people are gonna like not write JavaScript and just accept like the complexity of Wasm. Like there is that like Rust leptos, which is like Slot JS but for Rust end to end.
Speaker 1:Oh, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was very cool and I'm sure there's some companies and people that will build stuff with it but it's just it's just like a I don't know. I don't think it's made to like remove JavaScript. I think it's made so they can ship high performance stuff when you need to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For special use cases. I guess the TypeScript thing, I just whenever everybody is so, like like, in unison praising a thing, it's like TypeScript, type safety, everything's TypeScript. I just I don't know. I just wanna like be like, no.
Speaker 1:I don't wanna use TypeScript.
Speaker 2:Is that your perception that everyone in Unison, it's like
Speaker 1:a Yeah. I feel it. I mean, I feel like the Twitter at least on I mean, the circles we're in.
Speaker 2:I do not feel that way at all even in our circle.
Speaker 1:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:No. I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, think I'm just I'm just gonna have like a much spicier take on this. Because I was thinking the other day because I don't feel that way. I feel like I feel like this accepted status quo is everyone agrees JavaScript sucks.
Speaker 2:Everyone's like, TypeScript is a horrible language or like, it's all complicated or like, sucks. Well, that sucks. And I was really thinking about it, I'm like, no, you guys suck, honestly. Like, if I look at my TypeScript code, like, less on like the SST side and more on the actual application I build, it is very good. It is like very good code where, like I said, that this big refactor I did stuff, you know, I've been able to pull off stuff I've never been able pull off in other languages.
Speaker 2:If honestly, if at this point you're saying that TypeScript is a shitty language or whatever, like, I just think you maybe suck because I I don't feel that way about any other language. Wait,
Speaker 1:Didn't you say JavaScript? I thought you were talking about JavaScript sucks.
Speaker 2:But you're saying people say TypeScript Oh, the type system sucks or that's crazy or like People
Speaker 1:saying that about TypeScript? Really? Where have I been on the Internet that you are not?
Speaker 2:There's a see, look, you can see in the chat, TypeScript, TypeSystem being turned complete is horrible. So there's like this mindset around
Speaker 1:Oh, the type stuff. Yeah. Okay. I've said stuff about how well, they're just like you can't read it. Like, is it readable for you?
Speaker 1:Have you done enough TypeScript that you can look at these crazy generics and be like, oh, of course, this one does this?
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm very comfortable with it now. It did take a lot of writing that stuff to do it. It definitely is okay. Someone put it well the other day. You can't say it sucks because it is extremely powerful.
Speaker 2:It is a very extremely powerful type system and maybe too powerful for where people's expectations are. But I can't really say it sucks because I don't know anyone that can write that stuff that also says it sucks. Right? So for me Yeah. I am down to say that something sucks if I'm talking to someone that has become an expert in it and like, and hates it.
Speaker 2:So for me, like when I complain about Go, I wrote I wrote Go for five four or five years. Like, appreciate a lot of it. I don't like a lot of it. Even same with types of those parts that I don't like. But I think there is this like underlying thing because people reflexively say like types this type system is a mess or like it's great, whatever.
Speaker 2:And it comes from two sides. One side, it comes from what you're talking about where people with the crazy generics and they're like, what the hell is this? Is this alien code? Which, you know, I I get why people feel that way. The other side are like the functional programming people that are like, oh, know, it's something like, like, Camel has a much better type system, which it does.
Speaker 2:That's true. It does have a much better type system. But TypeScript is just its own thing in terms of its type system and you can just do so many powerful things with it. And it's either that you know how to take advantage of it or you don't. People just wanna, like, put caveats to it that I think are just feel people reflect reflexively add caveats to it without, like, really thinking about it.
Speaker 2:And again, I think I was saying all the same stuff and I was just thinking last week, like, you know what? No. It doesn't actually, like, suck as bad as we all reflexively say.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I guess, like, I don't think it sucks. I think it's weird to me how many people are learning these advanced generic I I don't know. Maybe it's the bubble we're in. If there's a 100 people that write TypeScript, how many do you think should know how to write these crazy generics and read them?
Speaker 2:In my opinion, all of them.
Speaker 1:Really?
Speaker 2:Because here so here's the thing, there's like the traditional thinking is, it's for library authors and which is that's where I really learned how to write this stuff well because I was because I'm a library author. And that gives that lets you deliver these really great libraries with the end users that doesn't have to think about typing. But within your own application, you also have layers like that, right? You have, lower level APIs that or low level code and you wanna expose higher level APIs for like, you know, like your domain, whatever it is. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I I do take advantage of a lot of that for modeling some more complex complex things in, in some of my code bases. Like if you look at the new SSD console, like, I do some very interesting things with, that, you know, we're gonna we're gonna show different types of resources and each resource have different types of properties. And we I do like really complex generics to make sure that's it's inferred all the way from not just the back end, it's inferred all the way from like the SST constructs code base through to our back end, through to the front end. So it does come in handy, and it does allow these like crazy refactors to happen without like any breakage at all. So I'm not saying you have to learn it but I also don't feel
Speaker 1:like It's for
Speaker 2:either It is useful. Like, I didn't learn it for that purpose but now that I have this skill, I'm just gonna use it everywhere.
Speaker 1:Okay. Type challenges it is. I'm gonna do them, I guess. You talk me as
Speaker 2:So a here's the other thing. I, I know people have taken, Matt Pocock's course and I say he's very good at teaching you this stuff. I'm really impressed by that review because once I got comfortable with this stuff, I was like, I have no idea to teach this. I don't even know how I learned it in the first place. I can't really explain what I'm doing really, like, because I might just not know it well enough to like, extract patterns and articulate them but Yeah.
Speaker 2:For me, it's such like a feel thing that I'm like, how do you ever teach this to anyone? It's like, you have to try to do so many practical things before you, like, understand what's possible.
Speaker 1:I'll take his course. I don't need type challenges. That's that's what I'll do. I'm so curious. I've heard such good things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:The format, the way it's presented. And it okay. So I wanna talk about this. I wanna talk about, like, developer education Mhmm. And courses.
Speaker 1:And so there there's sort of like I don't know. I wouldn't call it a debate, but there are, like, vocal parties on both sides of this. Like, one group says, like, any developers teaching other developers is just a cash grab and it's a they're grifters and it's a scam. Or, like, that's just a shady practice. You shouldn't be teaching or selling teaching materials to other developers.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But, like, that's just a signal that that's that person's in it for the money or whatever. And then other people that, like, no. That's the best way to teach other developers is to learn from a developer. And I think of, like, Joel Hooks who's he's, like, sort of shepherded oh, the Matt Pocock course. Like, he's part of that production.
Speaker 1:Right? And they do a really good job of marketing the thing. I haven't taken the course yet, but I guess it seems to me like some of the best educational resources out there are made by other developers. Do you agree with that? Do you think it's is there, like, a heuristic, a way to know this is a good resource and this is not?
Speaker 2:I've never taken a course in
Speaker 1:I guess I haven't either.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, I believe I mean, I think it's the same as everything else. I think in every field, no matter how small it is, a number of people making these courses are probably small. But even despite that, I imagine 90% of them suck and 10% of them are good. So that would be my guess.
Speaker 1:That's a very boring answer, Dax, if I'm being honest. I don't know if you could be a little more spicy, say something more fun. Don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, do people I don't, okay. I'll attack the other side of it. Why are people complaining about everything? Like, why is everyone so focused on? Are they?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I got off Twitter. I'm not on Twitter as much and I feel better for
Speaker 2:it. Coward.
Speaker 1:What? You just complained about it. I'm a coward. No, I'm just protecting my mental health. That's what that's what I get
Speaker 2:to say. Yeah. But if you if you leave, then there's just one less person.
Speaker 1:What? One less person what?
Speaker 2:Then there's just one less person that's that's not negative on Twitter. Twitter.
Speaker 1:I am negative on Twitter. What are you talking about? I'm one of the most negative
Speaker 2:on Twitter. That's true. I'm a Maybe it's good that you leave.
Speaker 1:Again, my mental health. Like, I didn't know. It's not it's best for everybody that I just stay off of Twitter. Yeah. I'm still on there.
Speaker 1:I just I don't read it as much.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, okay. I was gonna say like, yeah, I I I know what people are talking about. There's all these bullshit courses that just seem like, I don't know, just garbage. But one, I can't believe here's the thing.
Speaker 2:There no matter how stupid something is, it's there's just gonna always be someone that pays for it. Like, we all still get junk mail to our mailbox.
Speaker 1:What is the deal with that? Yeah. How do they get our addresses? Is that not like illegal or something?
Speaker 2:Here's a really stupid circular thing. Right? The post office is a entity that doesn't make money because it's like a public service. Right? And so it like is always Yeah.
Speaker 2:Losing money. So they're like, okay, let's to lose less money, let's charge people to send junk mail, like it's a good source of their revenue. But they're providing a subsidized service. So even when they're charging the junk mail sender for the mail, it's at a price that's like already subsidized. So and if it wasn't subsidized, it would just not be profitable for the junk mail senders to be sending it.
Speaker 2:So it's like this weird circular thing where like, the only reason it's all profitable it's because the post office doesn't have to make a profit but then they like kinda try to make a profit halfway
Speaker 1:What in the world?
Speaker 2:But like people the only reason this all works is because some amount of people, there's some ROI on that I imagine to like
Speaker 1:Oh my word.
Speaker 2:To some junk mail. So yeah, it's like I always see some of this stuff like, there's always gonna be some percentage of people and it sucks and like, I guess people are kinda like getting scammed in a way but yeah, I don't really know. Like, I don't know that that it's weird to me that people at that taint the whole concept. Even though I'm not someone that's ever taken a course, I'm like Yeah. I like look at some of the stuff like Matt Pocock's and it looks like really well done and like, people seem to have, like, a really great experience with it.
Speaker 2:And who's that other guy? The the CSS guy?
Speaker 1:Josh Como. Josh?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly him. Yeah. I've never pronounced his last name out loud, I never realized.
Speaker 1:Well, I I've always said, like, Comey or something. And then I heard somebody at Render I heard somebody at Render say Comey. He was at Render. So was Joel. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I feel like I don't know. I've I've definitely danced around the idea of creating educational stuff with this idea that, like, maybe I would just really enjoy teaching. I know I enjoy teaching, like, my boys Mhmm. Young children.
Speaker 1:I love, like, explaining difficult things to them and then, like, they don't care and they walk away. But I'm like, oh, need I more of that. I need to do that more. Yeah. So I think about that.
Speaker 1:I think about, like, would I just really love making educational stuff? But I've never I've always, like, avoided doing that first, like, tutorial or whatever. Like, I've not made a video that's like, I'm gonna teach a concept. We've just not done it.
Speaker 2:Do you think you would enjoy because the process of you doing it with your kids is very different than putting out a video which is a lot more like one directional. Because I feel the same way, like when when I explain stuff to people in real life and I'm interacting with them, like I love it. But I don't think I get that same feeling just publishing educational stuff as much.
Speaker 1:No, I I think the first step would not be like a YouTube video. The first step would be like, I'd try and do workshop.
Speaker 2:Oh, nice. And I
Speaker 1:think that's what Joel talks about. Like, you start with a workshop. If people buy the tickets, it's worth your time. If they don't, you refund anybody that did. Like, if you don't get enough people interested.
Speaker 2:Oh, cool.
Speaker 1:Kinda like tells you, is there interest in making this thing? Like, do enough people care to hear what you have to say about that topic? Anyway, that's what I would do. I would do a workshop. I don't know how many people you do a workshop for, like, 20, but there's some interactive bit involved there.
Speaker 1:And you kinda learn, like, what people struggle with and where you can really be helpful. And then that helps you and eventually, you just keep doing those and you roll it into a a course, I think. I think that's how Matt did it with the TypeScript stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting. Oh, he did workshops? I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all sold out. They made a ton of money on workshops or before they ever really, like, put time into the course, I think. I say a ton of money.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I had no idea. Just like that's the formula. You start there and you kinda like learn what people don't know and what they need to understand better and then you practice teaching the material and then you turn it into like a self paced thing.
Speaker 2:Like, how like, what percentage like, what percent are you interested in this? Are you, like, 80% gonna do this? Are you I
Speaker 1:think I'm I'm about 1% interested in a 100 different things.
Speaker 2:I think that's my problem
Speaker 1:in life. I'm like, there's, like, 10 different things at any given moment that I'm like, oh, I should do this. What is that? What's wrong with my brain? Is it like is this a thing that the Internet has done to me, Dax?
Speaker 1:Can I blame someone? I feel like I have no follow through anymore. I don't know if I did early in my career but I definitely don't now.
Speaker 2:I think there's a problem of optionality. Like, you just have a ton of options.
Speaker 1:Ton of options. That's the problem.
Speaker 2:This is kind of what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1:So how do you remove some options to make life easier?
Speaker 2:You just gotta commit to something. I don't I don't know. Like, it's a I don't know. I feel like I like at least for me, I'm like committed to enough stuff that I still get ideas for other things but they're like, don't really pull me because it Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay. Here's the other thing. The stuff that I am committed to has gotten past a certain point where it's like it's not as I'm not like pushing something. I'm not like making something out of nothing anymore. It's like already something and I'm like building on top of it so
Speaker 1:Like this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:We've got 29 episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're in it now. Yeah. I I am committed to this. There's this is like there's a few things that I've followed through on Yeah. And I keep doing.
Speaker 1:Not streaming, but this podcast. This podcast, keep doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So happy for me. I don't know. Maybe do you have like, how many things do you feel committed to? Maybe have more kids?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Have more kids? Oh, jeez. I don't know. A handful. I feel like a handful of things that I'm definitely committed to.
Speaker 1:And then a whole lot of things that I'm in and out of. Is that normal? Is that the kind of, like, range you were expecting?
Speaker 2:I I feel like it's the same for me, but the in and out I feel like you go more in than I like, some I also feel like I'm kind of vaguely toying with something always. Yeah. But I feel like when you do it, you go a little bit further, so then going out feels more extreme.
Speaker 1:I am like a I'm a sprinter. Have I told you this?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I like going really hard for short bursts of time. And then and it's so crazy. I've probably told you this, like, five times. But it's like, even with, like, physical activity, I can't, like, run two miles.
Speaker 1:No chance. Like, never gonna happen. Okay. I ran a five k once, but, like, probably never again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not, like, somebody who can mentally I think it's all mental. I just can't, like, sustain anything for very long from, like, I hate this. This sucks. I'm done. But, like, give me sprints?
Speaker 1:Sure. Like, I love short bursts of intense everything. So I don't know how to maximize, like, my impact on the world with that skill because it feels very like the world is very oriented toward consistency and long term and endurance and stamina. And if you have those qualities, you're gonna build great things and go very far. And if you're a sprinter, it's just like you just have a lot of like unfinished work around you at all times, which Leonardo da Vinci sorry.
Speaker 1:Go
Speaker 2:ahead. Yeah. No. No. I'm gonna cut you off right there.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna compare myself with you. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because, the isn't that I've heard someone talking about this because like people did talk about the sprints versus the marathon thing but Yeah. The reality is for literally everything, it just both. You just have to sprint forever. Like it's kind of, I think
Speaker 1:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:That's just what it is. Like, I don't know. It's like, I feel like everything I'm doing has always felt like a sprint but it just feels like I get a little bit of a break every week but then once a week starts, it's like the sprint starts again. So, yeah, people I forgot. Someone said it in a funny way but it's something like, like, yeah, like it's actually just, you're just sprinting the whole marathon.
Speaker 2:And if you look at the best have you seen people like run, like Olympic runners that like do quote unquote long distance? No. So if you look at someone that runs like a, 1,600 meter race, their pace is the same it's like better than my 400 meter pace. So if I like run as fast as I can for 400 meters, they're doing that for all 1,600.
Speaker 1:For the whole mile.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like stuff just becomes like those races that you think of as long distance, like, if you zoom in, it's actually just a sprint the whole time. Wow. You know, mine's like the ultra ultra long distance stuff but So
Speaker 1:so I'm not special. I'm not going more intensely. I'm just flaky.
Speaker 2:No. Think you might you might be going more intensely but I think don't like I think the answer to your question sadly is that you have to do both. I don't think there's I don't think you can just do that find like like like a way that that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry if that Is that a lot to hear?
Speaker 1:It's not a lot. It's just I still I don't understand because I feel like if I win as hard as I go, there's no way I could sustain it like for the rest of my life. And that's what I feel like you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Maybe do it go a little bit less hard. I don't I don't know what the answer is but Yeah. I was like, you might be going I think you do definitely go harder than what most people consider a sprint but the big gaps between probably that I don't think can work out.
Speaker 1:The big gaps?
Speaker 2:What what was that? Like if you like sprint for a long time for if you sprint and then you take then you then you flip to a period of like not doing that?
Speaker 1:So like if I stream for three months and then I don't stream for four months and then I come back and I stream for a month and then I don't stream ever again, would you say that that was a good strategy? Or
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know. I just like don't know. I don't know how that approach beats I don't know. I just don't know.
Speaker 2:I haven't
Speaker 1:seen it. Feel like you're, no, I feel like you're you're holding something back. I feel like you got something really juicy to say to me. Something that maybe would hurt our friendship and you just don't wanna say it.
Speaker 2:I'm not holding anything back. I just I just don't have a good way to articulate it. I just I I don't know. It's just what I said. It's I think your approach doesn't work.
Speaker 2:I guess it's as simple as that.
Speaker 1:Ouch. Ouch. That was it. That cut deep.
Speaker 2:Because I can't think of like a way to like, okay, if you do this approach but like in this way or in this play part of the world or against this thing, like, don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It doesn't work. No. You're right. Because I I when I sat and think about, like, how could I take advantage of this skill of just, like, going really hard for two weeks?
Speaker 1:It's like, no. Plenty of people go really hard for a lot more than two weeks. I'm not, like, special for just, like, ignoring everything else in life for short periods of time. I just gotta figure out how to, like, maintain, like, a good healthy interest in things that I take on without, like, obsessing and neglecting my health and doing all the things I do. Because I just, like, when I get really into something, I won't exercise.
Speaker 1:I won't anything. I just like I forget to eat. I mean, you know what that's like. Like, it's just very unhealthy. Can't do that stuff.
Speaker 1:But it's so hard to justify when my mind is in that. It's like you're going to bed thinking about it. You're waking up thinking about it. It's so hard to justify spending any time doing anything else when it's like, got stuff to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you know, you probably don't do that with your kids. Right? The time you spend with them No. How much they get impacted.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sounded awful.
Speaker 2:Oh. No. No. No. I meant my
Speaker 1:It's like, of course not.
Speaker 2:No. I meant that, like, there is, like, a base level of stuff that doesn't, like, fall to the wayside.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're saying like I still oh, I got you. Yeah. I thought you're saying like I don't focus on my kids like that and I don't get very intense. I was like, no. Why would I do that?
Speaker 1:No. The the great point. Yeah. No. I do still, like, have my family and a relationship with them.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I can't go as hard as I could in my twenties. Yeah. Now that we've got kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I kinda feel that same way. I feel like I'd like I used to this the thing you're describe I would like I would work in bed and I would fall asleep because it's 3AM with my laptop on my chest. I would wake up and just go straight back to work again. Just like, and then I just would not have left my bed for like hours, besides like go answer the door to get the food delivery.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm obviously never gonna go to that degree again, but I can't say it wasn't it was productive. I was also a lot stupider back then, I had to do those things. That's that's the other thing, like, you just get, you just build more leverage and you don't have to compensate for, like, your inexperience with that, like, raw, like, time anymore. So I think you might just maybe you're Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe you
Speaker 2:haven't fully adapted to the fact that you don't have to really operate the way you did when you were, like, you know, younger?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Maybe.
Speaker 2:You probably are just as effective without going that hard.
Speaker 1:I definitely sprinted pretty hard for a couple years.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A few years
Speaker 1:when we started a startup. That was that was a long sprint. But, yeah, I was dumber and I just had to throw time at every problem. Now I don't. That's what I'm trying to convince myself.
Speaker 1:I still don't know if I believe you. I don't know if I actually feel smarter and, like, I can do things faster anymore or now than I did?
Speaker 2:It it's not even about doing things faster. It's like you might have resources to, like, hire someone to do a thing they could have done yourself or,
Speaker 1:like Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not gonna waste time doing a thing you know doesn't work because you, like, wasted time before.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Why do we okay. No. This is totally jumping off the cliff. But why do we, like, make more money the older we get?
Speaker 1:Why is it, like, just because we get older, we deserve more money?
Speaker 2:I I have a whole rant about this, the way people think about income that I just feel like no one understands it correctly. People are always like, this is top, this comes up a lot, right? People come up with a role, right? They're like, oh, this role. Okay, let's say it's, like DevRel, writing documentation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And we all feel like that's important. DevRel is important, documentation is important. Everyone's like, that role deserves x dollars or like, because we have these warm feelings about it, it deserves, you know, it should be someone if you're hiring someone for that role, you should pay them x amount. But I think people have this weird association with their salary, like someone has to like there's like some kind of objective truth to what the salary is and like someone has to like gift that to you, someone has to give it to you and agree to that truth and we have to agree that this is worth it.
Speaker 2:But I guess it's just not how it works. It's like Yeah. If you're on the other side of it and you're building a business and you're trying to like invest your resources, you're like, what is the ROI I'm getting for this? Is this person gonna like, if I pay them a dollar, they gonna bring me back 5? Like it's always about the amount of demand and opportunity you can create.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you can do that with literally any role, but like there's like no innate value, like number with the role. I think the reason people think about this stuff is if you go work at a big tech company, they give you a packet or just a big any company that's like, here is your level, you are level six. If you do x y z things, you will be level seven and level sevens earn a blah blah blah. So you just get this idea that there's like this global framework for what people deserve given how many years they have or like, I'm doing x y z things therefore.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the thing you said reminded me of that because it's not that you automatically make more money when you're older, it's that typically people that have more experience can just create a way more opportunity for themselves just given the people they know, the stuff that they can do, etcetera etcetera. So Yeah.
Speaker 1:I knew you were gonna go there. It's the opportunities. It's the the older you get, the more experience, the more opportunities, the more pay.
Speaker 2:You don't deserve more because you're older. You don't deserve more because you're like, I've been working for twenty years. You deserve more because you, like, have created a bunch of demand over those twenty years. Yeah. Anyway.
Speaker 1:So do you do you worry about like software development as a field? Like being in a bubble that we've been paid way too much and it's gonna come crashing down and we're all gonna get paid like, I don't know, flight attendants. I don't I have no idea what people get paid but
Speaker 2:There was definitely I think I have spoken to that before. There's there was like a year, it was like a year or two, maybe two years total where me and Liz collectively made like like a stupid amount of money. This is like peak pandemic money everywhere situation and I'm kind of like, I don't know if we're ever gonna like make that much money so, like, doing literally what we were doing back then. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that that opportunity is not there anymore. I'm not personally worried really that much.
Speaker 1:Mean, we're not exactly working like nine to fives, like, where l seven salary ranges matter to us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. So I've always like found like weird ways to make money. So I don't think that's Yeah. If that's impacted, I'm just gonna continue to find other weird ways to make money like like Jason Jason Landsworth was saying, I saw this interaction on Twitter, but someone posted like, oh, why isn't there like a software engineering reality show?
Speaker 2:Which is something we've talked about a bunch, right? Like just Yeah. Like there's just so much drama, it'd be funny to have like like, Netflix style documentaries with like some of these characters.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And Jason was like, oh, I have like yeah, know what he's He's like, have go a bunch of shows that I've written and are ready for production. I just need a company to sponsor it. And I'm like, that is so weird and like that no one no little kid was like, I wanna be that when I grow up. Right? Like, no nobody there's no like instructions on how to go do that.
Speaker 2:That is such a weird way to make money and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's gonna work out but if he does do it, like, yeah, he just came up with this, like, super weird way to make money. So I feel like there's
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna steal this from Liz. She said this the other day and I've been trying to figure out how to put it into a tweet so I can steal it from her. But she was like, the way she's perceiving things is it's getting easier and easier for people that are geared towards like finding weird ways to make money. Just because like the tools are easier, like there's more tools, there's more opportunities, there's like there's just it's just doing something weird and finding your own unique way of making money is like more possible than it ever has been. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But the other side of that, of like not doing any of and doing something like very traditional, that's getting harder. So there's I think there's just gap that's being created between Yeah. One type of person and another type of person and that's where a lot of the pain and conflict kind of is showing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've got, I mean, people close to me. And I'm I live in the Ozarks. It's like not a lot of people doing what I do for a living. Definitely close with people that are feeling the pain of the current economy.
Speaker 1:I mean, just like the different paths. And if you didn't take one ten years ago, it's it's kind of bad right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And even though just like traditional paths that have been very reliable or like, at least in the the pads that people were told to go down the last five to ten years are now People are like, okay, they're like not as lucrative anymore and especially in tech at least. Yeah. And we'll see where it goes but, yeah, I think more than ever it's important to find your own, like, weird way of making money that nobody else really can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And if you don't do that, dermatology. I just got back from the dermatologist. I bet they had 50 employees in there. There were, like, four patients and probably, like, 50 people behind desks.
Speaker 1:I'm not even kidding you. I have no idea what they're all doing. I guess, like, dealing with insurance. Maybe work for an insurance company. They seem to be doing okay.
Speaker 2:Is that that that maybe is it the place place in The Ozarks?
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is this huge, like, floor of this one of the few tall buildings in The Ozarks, and I cannot believe how many people work at this place. It was insane. They can't all be dermatologists. They're all just, like, moving paper around, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. I'm not trying to, like, disparage them. It was just clearly a lot of opportunities in healthcare. We're all sick and dying.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2:Money in in skincare for a predominantly white area.
Speaker 1:Okay. What what where did that come from? Why do we do we have to go into the racial tension?
Speaker 2:I like I like making fun of white people because I feel like they have, like, a lot of skin issues.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like it's like the one one area
Speaker 1:that We get sunburns. I don't know if you know this. It's where your your skin gets red and burnt from the sun. Okay. It hurts.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Love you. Bye.
Speaker 1:I've been waiting to do that all day. Yeah. It's really Like, as soon as I saw your tweet, I've been just dying to do it. Okay. I'm gonna
Speaker 2:stop recording now.
