PHP & Laravel Having a Moment
Can't believe all of you are falling for adam dot dev's Laravel scam. Oh my god. He click away to you with the stream title saying he's gonna build a project with Laravel and just talking about Laravel. Never does any Laravel. I hate that that's accurate.
Speaker 1:I hate that it's true because I'm not scamming. I'm not. People so many people think I'm trolling. I'm really not. I'm actually excited about Laravel.
Speaker 1:Why would I troll about that? It's like a fantastic community. It's amazing technology.
Speaker 2:You're doing it again. You're again just talking about it and not actually doing.
Speaker 1:I've actually done some Laravel, just not on stream yet. Okay? I've I built the starter project. Okay? It was a lot of CLI commands.
Speaker 2:It was a lot of CLI commands or one CLI command?
Speaker 1:Because you have to NPM install because nothing can escape the grasp of NPM and JavaScript. So if it were for that, it would just be a couple. But you gotta do you gotta build your your front end assets or whatever. I don't know.
Speaker 2:You're not one of those people that that just clones a starter thing and then starts talking about a technology.
Speaker 1:Okay. I'm not. But in in this case, that may be what I did
Speaker 2:one of them. No.
Speaker 1:But but I'm not that kind of person. It doesn't define me. One one action does not define my person.
Speaker 2:I agree. But I'm just saying technically speaking, that is a bullet point when you're being judged later.
Speaker 1:It's true that I did not actually alter the starter project in any way. Not in any meaningful way. I did change the markup a little bit just to see that it doesn't have hot reloading, which we should talk about that. Taylor, let's we should talk about what JavaScript developers expect. Now that there's a flood of JavaScript developers flooding into the PHP and Laravel world, we need to set some expectations.
Speaker 1:We expect when we make a change in the file and we save it, it just automatically updates in the browser. It's just an expectation. It's all we've got, really. JavaScript is hell on earth, and this full stack JavaScript stuff, if we're gonna have to deal with all that, at least we can save a file and see it immediately reflected in the in the browser. That's that's all we got.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they're really happy that you're in this you're in their space now.
Speaker 1:I wonder, actually. I wonder how much there's people, like, with some consternation. Why did I use that word? I wonder how many people are, like, a little upset and a little nervous about JavaScript boys showing up into their very adult community. There's no drama.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was messaging you about this. You were like, oh, man. Laravel's at this peaceful paradise. Okay.
Speaker 2:Everyone, go run into it.
Speaker 1:So true. What have I done? I'm gonna be the person that took down the Laravel community and brought all the JavaScript people to it. Oh, no. Have you ever used it?
Speaker 2:So I've done even less than you, but I've, like, read every word
Speaker 1:of don't know it's possible. You should've done less than me. But you've read every word of the docs. Why?
Speaker 2:Because one just as, like because I'm an because I work on a framework, and I they're like kind of gold standard in a lot of ways. So just because I wanna understand how they did their docs, how they structured it, but also like how everything works because I think in terms of like what primitives do people need, it like sets a nice bar on here's like a list of everything you need. If you have these, you can theoretically build most things. Yeah. So you guys wanna know I understand all that worked and how they organize stuff.
Speaker 2:Big question I always have is, you know, you you have to separate your concerns somehow, and some applications separate them by what the thing is. Like, all your events go here, all your data models go here, all your whatever goes here. Yeah. Yeah. Or you separate them by, like, business concerns, like, your user stuff goes here, all your to do stuff goes here, etcetera.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, was kinda researching. And we kinda I constantly refer back to it.
Speaker 1:And they do they do the the not the business y way. Right? They do, like, actions and controllers. They have folders like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which is different than where I I do the I usually do the other thing. Okay. So I like to have if I'm working on user stuff, I like to see like all the events and all the database models and everything all in one place. But, yeah, I was kinda looking at their approach to understand, like, if it's better, like, when it's better, when it's worse.
Speaker 1:So this would be a good exercise for me because I'd like to hear all the like, I'm very enamored. I'm in that early honeymoon phase where I just love everything about this, everything I'm seeing about Laravel. But I know there's trade offs because everything in technology is trade offs. So you're helping me you can help me kind of understand if you've read all the docs. One thing one big question I have is, like, what is the performance story?
Speaker 1:Because I've heard a lot of people come at me now on Twitter since I declared my love publicly for Laravel about how slow it is and PHP is so slow. Is it really? Has anyone actually done the benchmarks?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be surprised if no one's actually done the benchmarks. But
Speaker 1:That's the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It just comes on your it's the thing I always say is, like, your speed is really never about your language. It's usually about your architecture. Like cause it's it's not about the benchmarks really, it's about how people feel when they're using your app. So what kind of database are you using?
Speaker 2:Like, what kind of strategies are you using with the database? I'm sure you can have a Laravel app that feels effective. I imagine it's a little bit harder, just because some of the JavaScript tools are little bit more integrated for the stuff that makes things feels fast. But I'm sure you can you can make it feel fast. And but on a technical basis, yes, it is slower, which means, you know, you're gonna pay a little bit more, the language itself.
Speaker 1:The language itself. So if if I had a page and this is what I'd like to do. I'd like to take some sample app that's got some kind of, like, SSR scenario where you have to fetch some data from a database and then render the page. I'd like to create that app with Next. Js server components, and I'd to create it with Laravel.
Speaker 1:And I'd like to, like, time it. Could we do that? Is that an exercise that I could do? Is it slow or, like, time to first byte just generating a page?
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you have to, like, test adequate things. Like, you have to so you know how in JavaScript you can easily do two requests at once because of the, like, event loop, like, it'll kick off an hour request, do some
Speaker 1:more work. Synchronous stuff and Yeah.
Speaker 2:All that stuff. I don't I just don't know enough about PHP to understand. Does it one, does it have that? Or is it a 100%? Like, does it have this concept of, like, asynchronous IO?
Speaker 2:Right. This stuff historically mattered a lot more when a single container server, whatever was handling a lot of requests. But these are all deployed to Lambda function. So it's not like you need to handle a 100 requests at once. But within the context of a single request, you know, how how much parallel work can it do?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I don't know the answer to these things, but it is a simpler language, and I imagine that it doesn't have some of these optimizations, which is what keeps it simple.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. Are there other downsides I'm overlooking? It's the type system thing. I guess people who are really big into type safety.
Speaker 2:I mean, you as someone that has been doing a bunch of in TypeScript and is using TypeScript language TypeScript libraries, you might find like, you feel you might feel like it's, like, a slide backwards. The other thing that I didn't get to when we're talking about this the other day is the diversity thing. It does show up in some places, like, so for me, I hate class based doing things by classes. I hate modeling everything as a class. I love having, like, typed objects and passing them around to functions, like I just my background.
Speaker 2:If I shift to the Laravel world, like, just can't do functional stuff as much. In the JavaScript world, there's a lot of people that use classes, that's fine. But there's also people like me that don't. So, yeah, there's certain styles that, maybe you're willing to give up, maybe you want to shift, but in exchange for all the stuff you get. But I think for me, those are those are the few things that keep me away from it.
Speaker 2:It's really just a type system and just a class oriented nature of everything.
Speaker 1:Okay. I'm still going down this path. You didn't dissuade me.
Speaker 2:No. I'm not trying to dissuade you.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna build something. Yeah. You are. Of course, you are.
Speaker 1:I was just trying to pop my balloon, Dax. I get all excited. I'm easily excited. I I guess that's probably part of the problem. But then you always just wanna pop my balloon.
Speaker 2:Doing anything. You're going through your own roller coaster emotional journey just right
Speaker 1:sent me a tweet that you wrote this morning that's popping literally popping my bubble. It's not literally
Speaker 2:What do you mean? What tweet?
Speaker 1:You just you denied it, but you just you sent me the tweet. You told me that you wrote this tweet, and you you're talking about how I'm scamming, how I'm not actually into Laravel.
Speaker 2:If anything, that's encouraging you to prove me wrong and become a Laravel.
Speaker 1:That's fair. Because I am feeling a little more motivated now.
Speaker 2:Don't blame all your problems on on other people. Maybe look inward.
Speaker 1:Is that a valid criticism? Was that real? I can't tell if that's, like, bit of truth.
Speaker 2:Valid is not real. Okay.
Speaker 1:We've gotten to that point in our relationship where I don't half the time, I don't know if we're being serious or if we're joking. Okay. What's on your mind? I just said a lot of stuff about Laravel. What's on your mind?
Speaker 2:What is on my mind? Well, I've been, yesterday, helping Rox with the thing he's working on, which has been kind of interesting. Now and now Mehul mentioned today, he's kind of doing something very similar. As I think we've talked about a bunch where, if you just learn some of these tools, like, you can make things life a lot easier for yourself. So so the thing that Rox is doing Like, what I think you're familiar with is
Speaker 1:You're talking about Laravel. Right?
Speaker 2:We just learned. Oh, no. Not talking about Laravel. So Well, we're not helping you with this. Nice try.
Speaker 2:Good try. So he has this he's trying to build this tool that, like, you know, people upload videos and extracts frames that you could potentially use for thumbnails for that video on YouTube. So frames where there's a person's face and they're excited, etcetera. Mhmm. And it turns out there is literally an AWS service that like does exactly this.
Speaker 2:I think you've you've you've actually played with this already. So like within an hour, I was able to kind of recreate the exact pipeline that he wanted. It's basically core of his application.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think for him, the the version he made also didn't take him that long. But the difference is this approach, once it's done, it's done forever. Like, it doesn't matter if we're doing one video a day, a thousand videos a day. We don't now we to worry about deploying. And I think he he was kind of in this constant cycle of, like, where do I host?
Speaker 2:How do I deploy it? Like, what are my options? So it kind of removes all those concerns and it was nice to nice to see that. That said, there is a reality of stuff that's using this kind of thing, which is, the results were not amazing. They were still there.
Speaker 2:I think they were roughly the same as his results, but I think the ceiling to improve to get to do exactly what you want is lower. Because like you're kind of whoppering within the realm of what AWS supports. Like, you'd wanna skip frames that have text on it because you you don't want like random text in your video. Yep. And it can't, like, also do text analysis at the same time.
Speaker 2:So there is some rigidity, but the next level down is still, like, very managed and very serverless, like, SSCs long running jobs to kinda do your own custom logic. As opposed to like, you know, deploying on a railway server and then it's overloading, you gotta spin up another one and like managing all It's just a lot, especially for someone that like does not want to focus so much on the infrastructure stuff and do do these other things. So, Then Mehul's doing something very similar, and I'm like, can I just do a whole thing where I just, like, rebuild IndieHackers
Speaker 1:Yes?
Speaker 2:Projects in, like, my setup? And then I basically do the back end for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I would love to see, like, all of the the just the the example repos for these use cases because you just obviously think so fluently in SST that you're gonna come up with, like, the best way to do it so quickly on AWS. And, yeah, you could turn them out so quickly. I don't know how we make this worth it for you.
Speaker 2:Like, when it's part of marketing. So it's Oh,
Speaker 1:it's SSE marketing. Yeah. Everything is SSE marketing. Like, this is It would be
Speaker 2:funny if, like, the end result of each of these things was just, like, an API with like a very specific command just for these people to power these people's projects. It's like, I just have like a 100 single customer API instead I whipped up in a day.
Speaker 1:Did you actually give it to Rox to, like, run on is he gonna create his own AWS account? Did you actually get Rox to create an AWS account, or are you hosting it for him?
Speaker 2:No. You need to because, again, this I can just run it on mine, and I'll just send him the bill.
Speaker 1:Oh, for real? You're gonna, like you're just running it and you're state and
Speaker 2:it's I taken was like, if you just pay me two x the bill, I'll do it.
Speaker 1:This is awesome.
Speaker 2:So if he's ever, like, naturally successful, I'm gonna be twice as successful. So
Speaker 1:That's funny. I don't know if that works that way. Twice you wouldn't be twice. You'd just be twice the the spend anyway. Yes.
Speaker 1:K. So I wanna see this code. I wanna see recognition also does, like, the sharpness. Right? If you're building something like that for for, like, making thumbnails, which is that's what he's doing.
Speaker 1:Right? He'd he'd wanna know, like, these are the best frames of this expression or something, but it's not very good, you said?
Speaker 2:No. No. So okay. So my algorithm my crazy algorithm I wrote in in nine minutes yesterday, It basically it's actually funny because the the data that recognition gives you it gives you a lot of stuff back. So obviously, was like, okay, score it by how happy they look, how surprised they look, but also by how much their eyes are open and how open their mouth is and how much they're smiling and how bright the video is and how short the video is.
Speaker 1:Perfect YouTube clip.
Speaker 2:The first like, I first, I just did happy and surprised and the results were, like, kinda okay. And then the more I added, like, all of those things, it, like, pretty much got the right clips, the the right frames. The only issue is is if within a one second window, if there's like one frame with text over it and one frame without text over it, like, it might have just picked the one with text on it. So yeah. I'm I'm trying like there's probably like two other alternatives I can build.
Speaker 2:Again, could probably both those alternatives, can probably build within a day as well. And it's just like the initial effort is pretty small, but then like the time saved over time is like insane. Just never have to worry about it again.
Speaker 1:It's kinda hits on that whole serverless as a Spectrum conversation. I mean, just, like, thinking about yeah. Okay. So it's a managed service, this Amazon Rekognition. He can only go so far with it, then he's gotta go lower level.
Speaker 1:But he doesn't have to go to virtual machine where he's installing everything on it. And, like, that's too far down. There's there's things in between. It's a gradient.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think people do see it as binary, but it it really isn't. There's, like, so many stops stops on the way.
Speaker 2:And even even, like, if you're gonna run a container, it's also, like, more serverless place on a container. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right. You you've gotta do this, Dex. Because the Indie Hacker Cloud, if anyone should be using serverless, it's perfect for Indie Hacking. Like, indie hacking to me implies you don't have any money, and you're working alone, and you're gonna just rough something together quickly.
Speaker 1:And to me, serverless, like, start with no costs. It'll grow as your your thing grows. I don't know. Is it not a perfect use case? Do you do you have the opposite take?
Speaker 1:I feel like that look
Speaker 2:I think it is. It's just the I think the the mentality when the kneecacking space is, like, don't learn stuff because that's a waste of time because you might not you might not need it.
Speaker 1:I have so many problems with indie hacking as a concept. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's like it's like it's for it's like it's not learn nothing. Just learn, like, one thing and then maybe you don't need to learn a bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know why it bothers me. I feel like they should all just rebrand. They need a new public relations person.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll take over. Maybe I'll become an indie hacker.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Be you become yes. Do it. And just funnel them all into SST. It's just one big marketing funnel.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Except, you know, that will make SST, like, dozens of dollars.
Speaker 1:Dozens of dollars. Yeah. Oh, so true.
Speaker 2:Not the best strategy for us.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's the funniest thing you've ever said.
Speaker 2:It's funny because, I posted about this, but just being in I I don't know. I think maybe I've even messaged you about this, but just being in this Twitter bubble where everyone's like at the beginning of projects, like very, very small projects, we're always like trying to something off the ground. When I was at React Miami, someone came over and they were like, hey, like, you know, our company uses SST. That's awesome. Like, what what's your company do?
Speaker 2:There's some oil and gas related company in Kansas City or somewhere around Kansas City that makes like $4,000,000,000 a year. Oh my god. And, they had they were like, oh yeah, you know, we just moved 200 engineers to using SST every single day. I'm I'm just like, wait, what?
Speaker 1:What? They have 200 engineers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. They it's just like and the
Speaker 1:and all of them are
Speaker 2:just using SST and they're using it every day and they're like, and none of them are on Twitter or in our
Speaker 1:Discord talking to us. And I'm just like,
Speaker 2:wow. You know, worst case scenario, if everything fails, I'm just gonna go work for this company, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There you go. They need to keep using SSD.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And like, you know, it's just so I think there's just like this whole spectrum of these giant usages of it that we just don't really, don't really come across directly. But that's where for us, you know, all the opportunity is because if we build a nice product for them, you know, they're gonna pay. They can pay a lot for it. Yep.
Speaker 2:Sorry, indie hacking crowd. I just don't have the the deep pockets. You guys can pay me back in making videos praising me.
Speaker 1:There you go. That's a strategy. I do the real world thing. I think the Twitter bubble is so real. I I realize how much my perception of everything in the world is warped through Twitter.
Speaker 1:Like, the this company that I would never know existed that has 200 software engineers. But, like, everything we talk about on Twitter is about these tiny little startups that are really just dropping the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In my head, there's like, oh, there's like four companies out there that could employ me. That's that's like my my perception of the world. But, like, there's like thousands companies with, like, hundreds of engineers. Dark matter devs, the majority of devs in the industry, but we don't see them.
Speaker 2:That's true. There's millions.
Speaker 1:That that phrase, that's from Scott Hanselman. You started your career in .net. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know Scott Hanselman? Don't act like you don't know Scott Hanselman. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Why didn't you say that when I said Scott Hanselman? You should've been like, oh, Scott. Yeah. Scott.
Speaker 2:I think making you feel awkward.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, it worked because I had to do all that whole thing. So Scott Hanselman wrote the article Dark Matter Devs ten years ago fifteen years ago. It's been a long time. That actually kinda started my well, this was the early, early days for Adam in content.
Speaker 1:I made a blog because of that one article, adamelmware.net. I wrote one blog post. It's so so me. In retrospect, it's so me. I wrote one blog post about my home office because I had this amazing home office.
Speaker 1:It's still again, it's so me. Wrote one blog post. I was gonna be a blogger. And then Scott Hansland put it in his newsletter. He put a link to my my blog post, And it was the beginning.
Speaker 1:I was on a trajectory like no other, and then I I fell back down, did nothing for ten years. And yeah. Dark matter dumps. I'll never forget that, though. So when somebody says
Speaker 2:What that is what is the concept that he wrote about?
Speaker 1:Oh, you really don't know?
Speaker 2:No. I've never I don't know the I know who he is. I just don't know that.
Speaker 1:Do you know what dark matter
Speaker 2:is? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, that trick question. Nobody knows. Nobody knows what dark matter is. Dev, what do you know the secrets of the universe? So dark matter
Speaker 2:You just call
Speaker 1:me Dev? What? Did I call you Dev? I meant Dev. Sorry.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I would do that. I I I don't interact with Dev on the phone. So if you don't know what dark matter is, dark matter like, the whole known universe, everything we know, like the atoms, all the elements on the periodic table, all the stuff that makes up stars and clouds of dust and planets and all that, that's matter. Dark matter, there's six times more of it. We know nothing about it.
Speaker 1:We can't measure it in any way. We've never actually perceived it. We just see effects on gravity. Okay? So, like, it's like scaffolding that holds up the galaxies or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. But we can see, like, on the outer bands of galaxies, the impact. Why am I talking about astrophysics? How do we get into this? I don't know anything about astrophysics.
Speaker 1:I know more about Laravel than I know about astrophysics. I'm gonna keep going.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you know more about astrophysics
Speaker 1:than Laravel. Books and stuff. I've listened to a lot of physics books. So we see, like, the effects on, like, stars on the outer bands of galaxies. We see these weird effects on gravity that don't make sense unless there's, like, a lot of mass, but there's nothing.
Speaker 1:We don't see it. It's it's dark matter. That's dark matter. And the point of the blog post that Scott wrote, and apparently, somebody at Jason also calls it dark matter, dark matter devs are the 99% of developers who aren't online. They don't have a public presence.
Speaker 1:You can't see them, but they're out there writing code happily every day. They work at their oil and gas companies, but they're not, you know, on Twitter. They're not making YouTube videos. That's the dark matter developers. And it's this tiny little sliver that are, like, active on Twitter and talk every day and think that JavaScript matters and all that.
Speaker 1:That's the idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I'm familiar with that concept because my I guess my except my my dad's a software engineer, he definitely was in that category.
Speaker 1:Dark Matter? He wasn't on Twitter?
Speaker 2:Nope. And none of the technologies he's worked with, like, even come up. But, you know, they powered massive amounts of money moving around. So Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You never you never hear from them. Again, because they are too busy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They're too busy. Exactly. I think the amount of activity on social media is inversely proportionate. Am I saying words that make sense?
Speaker 1:It inversely inversely proportionate to the amount that you're getting actually done. That sentence make sense?
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, I get I get what you mean.
Speaker 1:Like, if you spend more time on social media, the more active it's just so funny. I I do like, I'm still straddling this fence of the worlds of, like, being a person who talks about software development and being someone who actually does software development, I feel like I'm straddling that line. Why are you looking at me like that, Dax? Why are you I feel like this whole you've had an attitude. Okay?
Speaker 1:We gotta talk about your attitude. This whole podcast you. You're not listening to me. I
Speaker 2:I'm literally just looking at your face listening to you. What?
Speaker 1:I don't think you're looking at my face, but that's fine. You don't have a teleprompter, do you? I'm actually looking at your face. You're looking somewhere else.
Speaker 2:So you're upset at me because I'm not using a teleprompter? I have a teleprompter. I'm just not using it.
Speaker 1:Why are you using it?
Speaker 2:I just like, it's just I can't find the right place to put it where it's kinda not annoying in the way.
Speaker 1:Okay. I was trying to say the word smirk, and I said snark and smark. You missed the word. You were talking.
Speaker 2:This is going fantastic.
Speaker 1:I was going somewhere. So I was I'm still on the fence on whether I wanna be someone who talks about this stuff on the Internet. How are you on the fence? I'm on the fence. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Do I wanna do this? I might just quit. One of these days, action is gonna be like, where'd Adam go? And I'm just not gonna show up again on social media.
Speaker 2:From my point of view, you're not on the fence. You're, like, deep in it.
Speaker 1:Deep in which side? Getting stuff done or deep in the the You're you're saying I'm deep in the in the world of talking about stuff?
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that's all you do, but I'm saying I feel like you're definitely committed. You we're literally talking to each other on a podcast.
Speaker 1:Like, do bring this
Speaker 2:topic up?
Speaker 1:Anyone can have a podcast. Anyone can just start recording their voice. No one cares.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I'm saying that, you know, it sounds like you like doing this and you're committed to doing more of it. Are you still are you, Lana,
Speaker 1:talk about that? Do you get the perception that, like, people who do all the conferences and they're all the faces of technology, don't you get a sense they don't really do anything? Like, they literally never build anything ever anymore? I don't wanna be that person.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I definitely.
Speaker 1:And do you wanna be that person?
Speaker 2:Are you at risk of I don't find I don't think I'm at risk of being that person.
Speaker 1:Why? Why are you exempt?
Speaker 2:Because, like, I don't that's not my full time job. Like, I still have to do other stuff.
Speaker 1:But, like, okay. Are any of those people? Is it their full time job? I feel like most of the faces I'm talking about have actual jobs, don't they?
Speaker 2:You're talking about the conference people that, like, just go to every conference and do the talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, the people who talk. I guess that's their job. Their job is DevRel.
Speaker 2:That's your
Speaker 1:job to do that. It's DevRel. I'm not a DevRel, so I don't have to worry. I'm not gonna become that person. That's what you're saying to me?
Speaker 2:I don't yeah. I got I I don't see you on that path at all. So I'm just gonna kinda it's like kinda weird for me to hear that you're worried about that. Like you've gone to Good to know. Or you've gone to one conference in your whole life.
Speaker 1:I've gone to one conference. I'm going to another. I'm not even speaking. I'm just yelling.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You're, like, worried about getting stuck into this world that you're, like, barely barely in.
Speaker 1:Does that make me a dark matter dev?
Speaker 2:No. Dark matter devs get stuff done. That's the other side of it.
Speaker 1:Ouch, Dex. Ouch. First, you don't look at me. You just, like, stare off to the side. Then you say, I don't get anything done.
Speaker 1:You're just trying to make me feel awkward now. Look at that. Third third bad thing in a row.
Speaker 2:I'm not that one, I wasn't trying to make you feel awkward. That that was just awkward.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. Should we just end the podcast?
Speaker 2:No. No. No. Hang on. Let let summarize this whole thing, whatever this was.
Speaker 2:You do work and you also spend time talking about it.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that's it.
Speaker 1:You do both. That's That's it. It's there's no drama here?
Speaker 2:Both. The the the Dark Knight or Dead thing is just like, they just don't do the other thing. You can you can do both. I'm sure you can do only one or the other, but I have a bunch of work I need to get done. And anything I talk about is from a conclusion because I was doing a bunch of work.
Speaker 1:You don't think it's like a slippery slope that people think this, they have good intentions, and then they end up just talking at all the conferences and never working again?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think so. But I think like, I definitely like, I definitely rebalanced my life compared to where I was a while ago. But there's also less for me to do and improve on the just doing work side. I've just gotten good enough where like, if I spent all my time doing that, I'm like improving, I don't know, like 1% every month or whatever.
Speaker 2:But then on this side of things, like communicating ideas and all that, like I feel like I can improve 20% a month if I do it. So, yeah, for me, it's just like I need something I needed something new to work on and get better at. So this was that thing.
Speaker 1:Are you taking suggestions? Because a teleprompter would be one. If you would go ahead and set that up, I think that's 20 you could knock off this month just immediately. You're just trying to make an awkward You're just stopping talking on purpose.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I guess your perception of getting better just buying a thing.
Speaker 1:It's true.
Speaker 2:That that's your approach.
Speaker 1:Most of everything I feel like I've gotten better at was just more money I spent. It's true. Let's go get some work done.
Speaker 2:What do you say? Okay. Maybe. See you.
Speaker 1:Alright. See you, Dex.
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