Dax: 00:00

Did you like cut the cord? What cord? Like when the baby's born, you cut the cord?

Adam: 00:03

Sorry. Yeah. Forgot. Baby, I'm I'm holding my like headphone cord and I was like, cut the cord. What?

Adam: 00:10

Sorry. I forgot we were talking about babies.

Dax: 00:34

So remember those protein bars I was telling you about? Yes. They're really like messed up ones that I think are like unnatural but I love them.

Adam: 00:41

Uh-huh.

Dax: 00:42

So I ordered a box and it they left it on my front, like in my front yard.

Adam: 00:49

Mhmm.

Dax: 00:50

So I opened it and every single bar was like totally melted. Like I could Yeah. Straight up liquid on the inside and I was like, oh, I guess I can't eat these. But just for the hell of it, I threw it in the fridge. I was like, let me see.

Dax: 01:06

Yeah. And the next day, I pulled out of the fridge and I opened one and it's like completely intact.

Adam: 01:13

It

Dax: 01:14

like to its original

Adam: 01:17

That's amazing.

Dax: 01:19

Highlights how like messed up this product is.

Adam: 01:21

Does it look different or does it look like it would have looked?

Dax: 01:24

It's it's like a little bit messed up where it's like kinda cracked

Adam: 01:28

Yeah.

Dax: 01:28

And like a little bit and like some are worse than others. But the first one I tried, I was like, this basically looks normal again. But the day before, it was like a bag of liquid.

Adam: 01:35

Completely melted. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm so ready for the heat to leave.

Adam: 01:42

Like next week is supposed to be here in the Ozarks, it's supposed to be like seventies and I'm very excited. Just the last couple mornings, it's been like 65 when I walk in the morning instead of like 75. I'm very excited.

Dax: 01:54

I guess you have the issue of it being was it is it humid? What what is your Yeah. Humid. Extra hot there? It's humid?

Adam: 01:59

Yeah. It's been like heat advisories. It's like the combination of

Dax: 02:02

the Yeah. Humidity and This

Adam: 02:05

is really gross. The Ozarks just gets all the worst weather. Like we have like a I think Springfield, Missouri was the number one most diverse climate in The United States. The temperatures vary so much whereas like LA is on the bottom of that list where it's like always the same. Yeah.

Adam: 02:21

Missouri is like one week, 95 degrees and a 100% relative humidity. The next week. Like this happens in the fall where it's like we bounce between the summer and winter for like a month and a half where it's like one week it's blazing hot, the next week it'll be like 55. It's just the it's the battle of like the Canadian air and the Gulf air. They're just like constantly competing and they do that battle here in the Ozarks.

Dax: 02:47

So I don't get it. Like, is it humid? Where's the water coming from?

Adam: 02:50

I guess the Gulf. Like when the Gulf air wins, we get the hot humid South air.

Dax: 02:55

That's crazy. It comes from that far away. Yeah. That it's like several states away.

Adam: 03:00

Yeah. It's like the I 44 Corridor which cuts Missouri in half Yeah. Is basically the line where all the storms come in. Like all the fronts meet right here, at least for now until I don't know. I don't know, in like three years maybe that'll push more north.

Adam: 03:16

I think it's getting warmer. But right now and historically my whole life, it's like all the storms happen along that that 45 degree angle in Missouri. Oh. So it's like the warm air and the cold air from Canada, they just they meet right there.

Dax: 03:28

Is there anything good about living in Missouri? What's like the best aspect of Not living in really.

Adam: 03:32

No. Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't think of any at the moment.

Dax: 03:36

Not even one. Like,

Adam: 03:38

Well, whole historically, people have liked the cost of living. Like, you can buy like A lot acres in Missouri and it's like, don't I know, a small townhouse in LA.

Dax: 03:50

Two and a half dollars and a can of quarters, something like that. Right?

Adam: 03:54

Can of quarters. That's funny. Yeah. No. It's very the land has historically been very cheap.

Adam: 04:00

So that was I think that was the main draw. Like, there are a lot of people it seems weird. Maybe it's because there's so many people in California, but how many people you meet that are new to the area in the Ozarks and they came from California?

Dax: 04:12

It's happening that I Yeah.

Adam: 04:14

It's always people coming from California.

Dax: 04:16

I only like, whenever I'm out in my neighborhood and I talk to anyone, literally anyone, from New York. Really? Every single one of them.

Adam: 04:26

Everyone in Miami is I just New York transplan.

Dax: 04:28

New York, basically. Yeah. It's embarrassing because I'm also one of them. Yeah. Obviously, I I see myself as different.

Dax: 04:34

I'm sure everyone sees themselves as like, well, I'm technically, you know, different somehow.

Adam: 04:37

Yeah. But it's the best life

Dax: 04:39

here. Meme. Yeah. Exactly. Well, my wife's from here technically, so that's my whole thing.

Adam: 04:47

You gotta something to hang on to.

Dax: 04:49

But yeah, it's just it's just all people from New York and because I know that if I was not from New York and I lived here, I would definitely just be like bitching about it all the time or like making fun of them or like I would see them in a certain way and I hate that. Yeah. That's me.

Adam: 05:05

There's so many cliches I fit into that I hate that it's me.

Dax: 05:09

But Yeah. So everyone around you is from California?

Adam: 05:11

Yeah. A lot of people that are new. I mean, like, the the Ozarks is this it's mostly people who've lived here their whole life and just have no plans to leave. But then there's like at our school, it's like there's a new family. Oh, where are they from?

Adam: 05:26

California. It that's just a very common thing. It's like people come from

Dax: 05:30

They're the West they're just here randomly, like no prior

Adam: 05:34

were seeking something else in life and they thought the Ozarks

Dax: 05:39

They're like, you're brand new. Like that.

Adam: 05:40

Yeah.

Dax: 05:41

Yeah. It's pretty crazy. So I'm wondering, is this good for you? Because you're are there more people like you moving in and, like, is there more stuff catered? Because I feel like you're more like someone that would be from California than someone that would be from Missouri Yeah.

Dax: 05:53

Given that you are vegan.

Adam: 05:54

That's true. Vegan, by the way. So I will say, like, I don't know. Every time we visit, like, we go out to LA. We've been out there quite a bit.

Adam: 06:04

We they're like early in my career, we had reasons to be out there and like we just always enjoyed being in LA because I mean, we're vegan. There's lots of vegan food. The weather is crazy.

Dax: 06:13

Even if you're not vegan, I I like, I think lunch in LA is like my most absolute favorite. It's like that category of like, nothing crazy, just like a casual lunch spot. Everything is just so good. I think it's

Adam: 06:26

shrimp just

Dax: 06:26

the raw ingredients are just are better out there.

Adam: 06:28

Yeah. Casey and I talked about how like, in The Ozarks, it's like every restaurant is just so bad and it's because there's no competition. Like in LA, it's like you gotta be good to like survive. Yeah. Out here, we just have so little like there's like one vegan restaurant that's actually just shut down here in The Ozarks.

Adam: 06:46

Well, not in the entire Ozarks Adam. You should have went Yeah. There That's that's the thing. Like, we went there one weekend. We hadn't been there in like six months and then the next weekend they shut down and we're like, well, there goes that, I guess.

Adam: 06:57

Yeah. But like, the the amount of like, they open a date is this whole deal where they're supposed to open a date. We got there at like 08:15 and like they opened the door for us and they were just getting there and then like they hadn't started making the breakfast stuff, so like we had to wait an hour. It's just like in the whole thing for me is like, there's no other vegan restaurant. They literally have zero competition.

Adam: 07:17

This is what happens when you have no competition. You stroll in at 08:15, and, like, people have to wait.

Dax: 07:25

So Yeah. That's a it's a funny dynamic because I've I'd I'd had this realization the other day where I think I'm now old enough that I've gained enough experience in certain things. And that sounds like a very positive thing, but I think it's manifesting in a weird way. Because I've noticed now whenever I go to a restaurant, I'm like, this was good, but, like, it wasn't great. You know?

Adam: 07:52

Like Yeah.

Dax: 07:52

I have a steak. I'm like, oh, this is pretty good, but it wasn't it wasn't, like, the best. Yeah. So in the past, like, I was dumber about this stuff, every experience was amazing. But now I've got Like a kid.

Dax: 08:04

Me.

Adam: 08:04

It's like, this is a Yeah.

Dax: 08:05

Exactly. Like kid. Yeah. This is

Adam: 08:06

the best thing

Dax: 08:06

I've ever had. I don't remember anything before this thing. But and especially, I mean, the steak ones is specifically funny because I've made so many myself, and I've been to, like, so many good steak houses now that I, like, can't I still enjoy it, but something is like, I'm cursed with the knowledge, you know? Yeah. A nicer way or or like a less nice way to say is that I'm just being pretentious, but I'm not being pretentious out loud.

Dax: 08:32

It's like internally Mhmm. I like I'm like,

Adam: 08:37

There's this really interesting thing, like, lifestyle creep. It's like

Dax: 08:42

Yeah.

Adam: 08:42

Like it's related to this. It's like as you get older, your tastes are more refined. It's just and it's very hard to like I've been thinking about this stuff. I've been thinking about like retirement, like what is retirement? Like like how much should you have saved for retirement?

Adam: 08:57

All these things that like I don't know. I'm getting ready to turn 40. I'm like, I just had my 30 birthday, so I'm on my last year of my thirties. And all these like morbid thoughts of my mortality are creeping into my brain. But it's kind of like in the same vein of like, you get older and suddenly like, you just won't settle for stuff that you would have settled.

Adam: 09:16

Is that why people get paid more every year as they get older? Like, I have these like weird hang ups with this stuff. Like, I've always been so upset about how, oh, if you live in San Francisco, you get paid more because it's more expensive there. Well, that's your choice. I don't wanna live in San Francisco.

Adam: 09:30

And if you wanna live there, then you're just gonna have a worse lifestyle because you I don't know. I've always been hung up on like people getting paid differently because they're older or because they're living in a certain place. But now I'm kind of starting to understand it, guess, is what I'm saying. That was a big ramble rambly thing.

Dax: 09:45

Well, I mean, people get paid more when they're older because ideally, you're like better at your job. I know it's not always true. It's often not true, you know. I like, in my previous job, was doing a lot of interviews. It was a I I I've talked about this before.

Dax: 09:59

I think the issue that I saw with getting older and getting paid more was after, like, ten to fifteen years of experience, adding another fifteen years of experience on top Mhmm. Unless you're, like, being really smart about it, that that that doesn't add up to anything. Mhmm. So so you're already senior enough by like, you know, fifteen years of experience. Twenty five years of experience doesn't like do anything.

Adam: 10:21

You've kind of like peaked at fifteen years is what you're saying? Like You're in

Dax: 10:24

your I I mean, at least in a certain vein of software engineering, like it can only absorb so many years. Like Yeah. I can't you can't become better at certain things unless you start to branch out. A lot of people don't branch out. So yeah, in that case, I'm like, should get paid more.

Dax: 10:39

But the the cost of living thing, and people bring this up, I know that's how it's phrased, but that's not really why companies are paying more. They're paying more because they have to. They're never gonna pay more than

Adam: 10:53

Yeah. No, right. It's competing.

Dax: 10:56

Yeah. Like, I mean, the cities are so efficient, right? There's so many companies there, there's so many pooled resources, there's so many people there. I mean, we're talking about this the other day where I'm like, wow, any any career that services other people in a city, your customer base is just gigantic and you become rich automatically. So I think all the numbers just get just get higher.

Dax: 11:17

Like, you're a plumber and there's a 100 people in your town versus a million people in your city, sure there's more competition but like, you know, that that kind of adds up non linearly. So that's why cities people in cities make more money. And you know, you can choose to live there too, Adam.

Adam: 11:33

It's true. I could. I don't want to. I'm not anti city. I like I

Dax: 11:39

It's so funny because you're both you and Casey from what I know about you guys, like, all the amenities of the city are literally catered for people like you.

Adam: 11:48

I know.

Dax: 11:48

So, I find it funny that you guys don't live in a city. Like, I feel like

Adam: 11:51

It is interesting.

Dax: 11:51

Living to where I live, you would actually take more advantage of the stuff that's available than I do.

Adam: 11:56

Yeah. There's stuff we wish we had in life that we don't because of where we live. I just I guess I can't imagine I guess what you like your situation, you live in Miami but it doesn't feel like you live in a city like

Dax: 12:07

No. Yeah. It's like it's not gonna live in New York anymore.

Adam: 12:09

Yeah. I can't I just can't it blows my mind. I can't fathom living in like Manhattan. Like when we go to New York for something and you're walking down the streets and you see people pushing like a stroller, it just blows my mind to think like Yeah. People live here and they raise their family in these nasty ass streets.

Adam: 12:24

I just can't imagine. But I get it, like, it's not as bad as I probably make it out to be.

Dax: 12:30

But I mean, it's just one of those things where you just get used to anything. But Yeah. I will say when me and Liz went back, because last time and she was pregnant, we were looking around being like all the stuff that we're very used to, we were like, oh, it'd actually be really weird to have a stroller in this situation or like Mhmm. Mhmm. It's just like we were like could like really visualize it now that we're about to have a kid.

Dax: 12:51

Mhmm. And yeah, I don't know how people do it. That said that we have friends that do it and yeah, everyone just just gets used to ever anything.

Adam: 12:57

I would just be so, like, on edge.

Dax: 13:00

That's what it That they it was a on edge thing because I'm I'm used to doing that for myself in New And to to be fair, like, 99.9% of the time in New York City, there's nothing crazy going on. You're surrounded by, like, a 100 normal people. So even if there's, like, one crazy person around, like, there's a 100 people that are gonna help you. But every once in a while, you turn a corner and you end up on a block that's empty and there's one person. And I do that thing where you like are walking faster than them and eventually you'll go by them and there's a of, you know, fear.

Dax: 13:37

And then I saw that happening. So we were in a situation like that, but there was a a parent with, a small kid. And I was like, man, I do not want to be in that situation. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax: 13:47

That's like way you feel way more vulnerable.

Adam: 13:49

Okay. So this is an interesting the interesting conversation that came I mean, it's interesting we're having this conversation just right after something in my life. We go so Mama Jeans, you know. Yeah. Mama Jeans.

Adam: 14:00

It's like the name of the Yeah. Grocery store They have like a brunch on Sundays at one of their locations and we go sometimes and it's the Mama Jeans. There's three Mama Jeans. There's two of them in great locations. One in a not so great really location which it's right across the street from Bass Pro Shops.

Adam: 14:19

Some people know of Springfield because of Bass Pro Shops, the original Bass Pro. Anyway Mhmm. Right across from Bass Pro, there is a Mama Jane's where they have brunch. And it's the rough part of Springfield. It's like the not great part.

Adam: 14:29

And actually, Springfield, kind of a shithole. Like, number it's like a

Dax: 14:34

I was on the bus. It the other day. And I don't know if I don't know if it Springfield or if it was, like, this was, like, town you live in. And the first picture that came up, was like, it was like of a shitty intersection. I'm like, is that how is that the first picture that comes up?

Dax: 14:48

It's like a shitty intersection with like with like some rundown buildings. I'm like, why is that the photo?

Adam: 14:53

Yeah. Well, spring Springfield's like really bad on the crime index. Like, it's whatever the worst crime index you can have. Springfield has it. It's like terrible like against children crimes and like violent crime.

Adam: 15:02

It's like not good stuff. It's like bad stuff. Springfield is like has a reputation, especially North Springfield is just rough. Like you don't there's just somebody getting shot every day. It's on the news.

Adam: 15:11

It's just it's horrible. Anyway, this is like the rough part of Springfield and there's a lot of homeless people that live on this little like sidewalk next to this Mama Jeans. And you don't realize until like I mean, until you have kids, that they don't know what a homeless person like, does that mean homeless person? Like, we live in a nice neighborhood and like there's no homeless people in suburbs in the Ozarks. Like, that's not a thing.

Adam: 15:34

Yeah. But this area of Springfield is kind of where they congregate. If I say something insensitive or something, I don't know. Is this like a thing you can't

Dax: 15:41

No. Talk It's fine. I

Adam: 15:43

just never know what you I don't know. I had to like explain to my 10 year old like, there was a there was something that happened. What what was it? Like, just the getting into the car, not wanting to leave him outside or something. It was just like Yeah.

Adam: 15:55

Oh, no. It was the bathrooms at this Mama Jeans have a code on You can't just like get into the bathroom. You have to like get a code to get in. He's And like, why do have a code on them? Like, oh, that's probably because there's a lot of homeless people here and they don't want them just like wandering into the bathroom.

Adam: 16:07

He's like, why not? And I'm like

Dax: 16:09

How do you explain this? Yeah. It's so complicated.

Adam: 16:11

Why not? And I was like, well, yeah, there's layers to it. It's like, well, because I just don't want homeless people coming into the store, I guess. I'm like, why not? This is like a 100 whys and I just have to dig down deeper.

Adam: 16:21

It's like, I guess because we're just afraid of homeless people. And like, yeah, I'm afraid of homeless people. I don't know. Are you are you afraid of homeless people right now? Is that normal or am I like

Dax: 16:30

over afraid? Normal. I I think the thing with it's it's like there's two kinds. Most of them are fine but then some of them are like mentally ill and like they're chaotic or like potentially violent. Like, we've had some weird situations.

Dax: 16:46

Someone like can't was this was really stupid. Liz was walking Zuko, who was a big scary Doberman. And a homeless guy like walked up really close to them and like Zuko was like in guard mode and then he like freaked out and like, ah, get the dog away from me. But I'm like, why did you walk up to What did you get close to? Yeah.

Dax: 17:10

Yeah. And now he's like freaked out by this. Like, he's like always giving us like dirty looks whenever we we see them. Mhmm. But yeah, like, you know, some of them are are really unpredictable.

Adam: 17:21

Well, when we were in New York, like the terminal crew, when we were in New York, there's someone like on that block that was stabbed by a homeless person or like multiple people.

Dax: 17:31

Oh, that That was When did we were that lead? That was really yeah. It was really random. Some guy was going around satin people. Yeah.

Dax: 17:37

Yeah. Just one of those things where you think about like, think about actually ending up homeless. It's a pretty extreme case because if everything went to shit in my life, like complete shit Mhmm. There's like so many layers of people that would be able to help me.

Adam: 17:52

Like support you. Yeah.

Dax: 17:53

Yeah. Like stay at their house or whatever.

Adam: 17:55

Mhmm.

Dax: 17:56

And I would say most people have that and some people are unfortunate where they don't have it. So it's a pretty extreme situation where they're either so mentally ill that nobody or that they know like wants anything to do with them. So then the people that end up there are, like, often in that type of situation. So, yeah, I get why people are scared of them. Plus, being in New York, like, 99% of them, totally fine.

Dax: 18:18

Every once in a while, there's a guy flinging around like a wood stick, like, almost hitting people. So Yeah. Okay. You just never know.

Adam: 18:26

Yeah. That's interesting. I like, I don't wanna be overly protective or overly, like, I don't know. Just trying to explain it to your kid is it's just like you have to start questioning why do I have all the things that I have in my brain about this? Did my mom like get me overly scared about homeless people and I'm like No.

Dax: 18:43

I mean, I have literally see I've had personal living in New York, I had so many personal experiences. So it's like, I

Adam: 18:49

And I haven't had those. So Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, like thing

Dax: 18:52

is true.

Adam: 18:52

So anyway, just moving moving on.

Dax: 18:56

I'll Well, let's let you bring this up because I I I totally forgot what's happening. So I went to the gym this morning and I was driving so I was driving and I looked to my left and every single street has a cop car blocking it and I realized I'm hearing a helicopter. Woah. There's cops everywhere basically.

Adam: 19:12

Mhmm. I was

Dax: 19:13

like, what is going on? And I went to the gym and I forgot about it. And Liz texted me that there's current she was like, there's a fast and furious situation going on in our neighborhood right now. And I was like, what? She's like, somebody stole a car?

Dax: 19:26

Oh. And but then, like, couldn't get away and now it's, like, hiding somewhere, like, you know, that, like, downtown area from where I live?

Adam: 19:36

Mhmm.

Dax: 19:36

It's hiding somewhere. So everyone's, like, locking their doors and hiding inside in case they're,

Adam: 19:39

like Jeez.

Dax: 19:40

Hiding their house. But it's just funny to me because there's no proof that you live in a nice neighborhood. Like, the best proof, I think, is a police response. Because this is one vehicle theft, and there's, like, a million dollars of deployment going on right now. Like, there's there's there's literally flying helicopters around this area.

Dax: 20:02

There's, like, cop cars everywhere. Oh, you could not feel safer. It's just it's just like they always materialize out of nowhere. Yeah. And I always wonder how this works.

Dax: 20:13

Like, is it that this area has, like because I believe we all pay taxes to Miami City

Adam: 20:20

Mhmm.

Dax: 20:20

And they, like, pull that, but then do they basically, like, redirect a lot more money into, our police department? And is that why we get a lot more? Or is it, like, just is it totally just, like, everyone knows it's a nice neighborhood, so whenever something happens, the chief is, like, definitely sending a lot of people there. What I'm, like,

Adam: 20:36

getting at. It's, like, it's a nice neighborhood. Do they get more police resources? That seems like, how do they make that decision? And, like, I don't know.

Dax: 20:44

Yeah. It's like it's it's it's it's always a case. Like, anywhere you live that's nice, especially in the city. Any little thing happens, infinite police will show up. Like, they just materialize.

Dax: 20:54

Like, they come up out of the ground. It's it's wild how they show up so quickly.

Adam: 20:58

Well, it's also just interesting. I'm I'm not lived in a city. Like, you paid city taxes. It's to the city of Miami. There's not like I don't pay individual

Dax: 21:05

No. Property tax. Those are property taxes. I don't pay any city taxes. There's no city taxes in Miami.

Dax: 21:09

No. It wasn't New York.

Adam: 21:10

Well, that's

Dax: 21:10

Yeah. So property

Adam: 21:11

tax. I guess. But like normally, like you live in a very specific little neighborhood in the broader city of Miami, they don't collect taxes individually, these little like neighborhoods?

Dax: 21:22

No. So you pay your property tax to your state, I think. Oh.

Adam: 21:29

I guess this is different everywhere. I'm pretty

Dax: 21:31

sure it's to yeah. Because I'm pretty sure New Jersey like, I'm thinking about New Jersey and actually, no. Maybe it's to your

Adam: 21:36

We pay a property tax to our city or our county.

Dax: 21:39

Maybe Maybe it's a county. Maybe it's something like that. And in our case, a county is is the city. Yeah. And I guess they redirect.

Dax: 21:45

They like pull it and they figure out how to allocate resources. I'm sure it's not like one to one. I'm sure like they are like trying to make it a little more fair and like using some of the resources from like the nicer neighborhoods in other places. But it's not that extreme because like Yeah. Clearly, we we get like a crazy response whenever anything happens.

Adam: 22:06

Have you ever done software stuff with like have you ever written software for like mapping stuff where you're doing like census tracks and

Dax: 22:14

Yep.

Adam: 22:14

Yep. Blocks. And like, there's so many different arbitrary names for like different circles. It's like bigger or smaller circles or just like how many people are in it. There's it like Yeah.

Adam: 22:26

Seems that when you really think about it, like, is a county? Like, a county is just like a tiny state. It's all made up.

Dax: 22:31

Yeah. I mean, it's it's really confusing for us because there's Miami, which is the city, then there's Miami Dade, which is the county, which includes Miami the city. But, like, it it also includes more than just Miami, the technical city. But there's, like, a mayor of Miami, the city, who's, like, really visible. But he's just kinda like a puppet mayor.

Dax: 22:53

There's a and there's a there's, like, a real mayor of, like, Miami Dade. It's very confusing.

Adam: 22:59

It's very confusing.

Dax: 23:00

It's like the the Miami the Miami mayor, the city mayor, he's like this tan, like, tan guy that's like, clearly on testosterone, like, looks jacked. And he just, like, never doing anything besides just, like, be like, Miami, it's awesome. Cutting ribbons. Yeah. Exactly.

Dax: 23:18

And then the other person is just like doing the, okay, we gotta balance the budget and, you know, all the Yeah.

Adam: 23:23

The actual work that I

Dax: 23:24

think it's a great setup. I think you need I think every place should have two mayors. One is like the mascot for the city and the other one's like running the city. I think it's a good setup.

Adam: 23:31

I want I wanted to talk about the just your your observation the other day on the phone about like Twitter cycles and the AI cycle that we're in.

Dax: 23:42

Mhmm.

Adam: 23:43

Because I think you missed one too. You you pointed out like right now, we're in this very AI centric circle. And it's like, you don't hear anything on Twitter unless it's about AI. And then before that, it was what was the one before that?

Dax: 23:56

I said front end frameworks.

Adam: 23:57

Front end There's also, like, the serverless era.

Dax: 24:00

I was thinking I I was trying to figure I was, like, trying to decouple the front end and serverless stuff. Can't I don't remember exactly. Because, yeah, there was a time where everybody was just arguing about serverless sucks or, like, serverless is great.

Adam: 24:12

Like, that

Dax: 24:12

was, like, every other other conversation. I do

Adam: 24:14

remember I that was before the front end framework era. Mhmm. Then before that was

Dax: 24:21

Well, the joke I made was it was just DevRel's talking about

Adam: 24:24

No. Yeah. DevRel. There was a DevRel era. That was kind of in the serverless era.

Adam: 24:28

I feel like that was my early days on Twitter, like where I really started paying attention to Twitter. And like when we met even was kind of that period.

Dax: 24:35

Yeah. There was a lot more cloud infra y stuff around then. Yeah. It's you know what's funny? I think this is making me realize like, you know how there are certain music artists that were really popular for a couple years and fade away and there's others that are just like somehow still still doing it.

Adam: 24:56

Oh, he's

Dax: 24:56

a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Making stuff. And I always would think about that.

Dax: 25:00

I'm like, damn, it's so hard because I point this out with Kanye all the time because any you take any like artists that got popular for a while, shortly after they get popular, Kanye will do a collab with them and there's like a song with the two of them. Interesting. You'll never hear from them again. You'll literally never hear from them again. I'm just like, feel like he just like sucks.

Adam: 25:19

Kanye curse.

Dax: 25:20

Yeah. He just like sucks up it's like the what's it called? The space jam. He's like just sucking up their talent.

Adam: 25:25

Oh, yeah.

Dax: 25:26

And then they they just disappear. There's there's so many examples of this. But, yeah, that's how

Adam: 25:31

he stays relevant. Like, he just

Dax: 25:33

Yeah. He makes sure that he does he's like, you know, in there with everyone, but he's like, you know, it's always around. Obviously, he's he's crazy now, but it's like that because I remember there are certain people that I could remember with these eras where they were like really tied to whatever the thing that was being talked about. Mhmm. Then when the thing when the trend shifted, it's not like they were generally tied to technology, they were tied to a specific technology.

Dax: 25:58

And when the tide shifted, I just stopped seeing them entirely. Yeah.

Adam: 26:01

Uh-huh.

Dax: 26:02

And then we shift again, and then we knew people and then shift again. But there's other people that like, you know, get interested in each little thing and like

Adam: 26:08

end up Mhmm.

Dax: 26:09

And then do they stuff with

Adam: 26:10

keep seeing them yeah.

Dax: 26:11

Yeah. So on one hand, I was like, it's really hard to be a musician like that. But then seeing it from this perspective, I'm like, I guess if you're the type of person that's just broadly interested in stuff, it's kind of natural because you kind of follow the trend as well.

Adam: 26:26

Can we can we talk

Dax: 26:27

about the

Adam: 26:27

AI cycle a little bit self reflectively? I don't if that's the word. Self aware ly.

Dax: 26:37

Int should we introspect? Is that what you're saying?

Adam: 26:40

Yeah. Can we yeah. Can we can we like look at it from an angle that's maybe not the angle people working on an AI harness would approach it. It's feelings I've had and I wanna just like say them out loud. Yeah.

Adam: 26:51

Do you do you do you wonder about the like nothing seems to escape the Gartner cycle or whatever. Like the obviously, there's an extreme amount of attention and excitement and hype and VC funding and whatever in the AI space. There's no way it's it's gonna avoid being over hyped. Mhmm. Doesn't mean it's not still incredibly useful and valuable somewhere on that curve.

Adam: 27:17

But I do wonder here's what I wonder. I'm starting to have these feelings of like, I miss just programming. Like just normal programming. Like where I didn't have any help and I just had to figure shit out and Google stuff and Stack Overflow or whatever. Like I kind of miss some of that stuff and I wonder like, that gonna be a thing other people are gonna feel in mass and that's what the Gartner cycle is gonna look like?

Adam: 27:44

Like, is there gonna be this pullback from AI assistance where I know it's our there's people who've been kind of like naysayers all along. I'm not saying like they're right. I'm just saying like, is there gonna be this like longing for the the old times?

Dax: 27:58

I I think that I would probably agree that yeah. So so I think when people think about hype cycles, they think about in terms of like people hyping something up and setting expectations and then going back down. But I think you're right that there's also like a usage cycle that happens Yeah. Where people try to use it for everything and they overuse it and they like Mhmm. Shove it everywhere.

Dax: 28:17

So I think in terms of coding, I think we're past like the pure hype cycle thing. I think people hyping stuff up and saying stuff is it's gonna be crazy and it's gonna change every six months, like that type of thing. I think we're past that. But I think we're in the middle of the way people are using it. Because when I look at the way people use OpenCode or QuadCode, it's so different to how I use it.

Dax: 28:44

Like, I work on this thing and I use it every day. I I use it very slightly. It's like a really nice addition to everything else I'm doing. Mhmm. But so many people are like digging into like trying to make it do so much and I I I just I would never really really got that interested in doing that.

Adam: 29:02

Yeah. Think that's what is like we, from our perspective, see all the crazy shit people want to do. And I think it's that that's making me disenchanted with like some of the extreme cases people are I mean, it's like everybody knows that we've talked about the cases of the people running like 10 parallel instances of an AI thing. It's like, I generated 14,000 lines of code today. And I don't want to like side with Paul Graham and his weird tweets about like It's like, I had a founder tell me he writes 10,000 lines of code and they're perfect every day.

Adam: 29:34

Like, there's just something about all this, the the usage of these tools Yeah. That smells funny to me. Like, I think people are going too far and trying to like, I don't know, overthink it. I think the way you use it is the way I want to use it, which is refreshing. And I get sucked into using it in some of these other dumb ways.

Adam: 29:51

And I'm like, that's when I start to feel gross and I just want to go back to the the old ways.

Dax: 29:56

I mean, it's like this with any with any technology. Right? You like I'll give you a really simple example. I thought about this before. Someone recommended to me to read the book Art of Postgres SQL.

Dax: 30:08

So I read the book Art of Postgres SQL and it fucked me up for like a year. Like, because the idea and and it's it's a good book. It's useful to read because it gives you an interesting perspective. They basically show you how all this stuff that you're doing in code, the database can actually just do for you and return the final result. So people tend to the argument was people tend to do stuff in code because they it's, like, familiar to them, but it's more performant and, like, there's a bunch of other reasons why you should, like, pass it into the database and have it do everything.

Dax: 30:40

So for a year, even though I was like even when I finished the book, also I decided, like, oh, this isn't for me. It's still stuck in my head where anytime I did something in code in the application layer, I thought I was doing something wrong. It like over rotated me into trying to do way too much in the database. And there's nothing wrong with that and like some people do that and it's fine. It just wasn't for me.

Dax: 31:00

Mhmm. So I think that's like any technology, you can't ever like use it the exact right amount. Like you have to overuse it and then kind of pull it back. And then

Adam: 31:10

come back. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I also I think it's coupled with feelings like I played around with v zero because I I wanted to I mean, it's not like a secret.

Adam: 31:21

We're working on a desktop app, right? Like Yeah. I wanted to see other tools Mhmm. Play with I've heard good things about v zero. So I I kinda like got into v zero and just tried to like vibe code something.

Adam: 31:32

You had talked about doing this and I was just very curious. Yeah. I'm pretty out on the current state of vibe coding. I've not played with Lovable or Bolt or any of these, but I can't imagine they have more success than v zero. I feel like v zero seems great at what it does.

Adam: 31:47

Yeah. But like building something where you don't touch the code

Dax: 31:50

It's and then being it's the whims.

Adam: 31:53

Do not understand how anyone's getting anything out of that. Yeah. Same.

Dax: 31:56

It it makes it makes absolutely zero sense. I that thing that I built with v zero was actually awesome because it's a tiny little utility that nobody's gonna build or maintain for me. Mhmm. That like Figma for the two e thing. Mhmm.

Dax: 32:09

That's perfect. But like, sometimes I would tell it to do something and it would totally break the whole app. Like, everything would just be broken.

Adam: 32:20

Same experience.

Dax: 32:21

Yeah. Like, that means under underneath it all, if adding one feature can break everything in such an intense way Mhmm. Whatever that thing like, way that's built is, definitely not not not good. Yeah. So like These people

Adam: 32:36

are trying to build their SaaS business or whatever. Like, they're gonna just become this technical founder because they have this tool. I am totally out on that. And it made me feel really good about being a software engineer in terms of job prospects. Like, it's not going away.

Adam: 32:49

Not yet. Yeah.

Dax: 32:50

Yeah. But for, like, prototyping or, like, making these little utilities, like, I'm really excited that that exists because my reflex has always been I did this with this Figma for the two way thing. It's always been post the idea onto x, see if anyone bites and, like, make something. Yeah. But then now, when I post that, somebody was just like, dude, just vibe code it.

Dax: 33:09

And I was like, that's a really good point.

Adam: 33:10

That's a good usage of vibe Yeah.

Dax: 33:12

It took me a few minutes and it's great. I'm glad this exists and this is awesome. And I think playing with design ideas or like product or UX ideas is pretty interesting. But I I don't understand anyone talking about using this for anything else. It like Yeah.

Dax: 33:27

The fact that it it like breaks the whole app breaks so often, and you just hit undo and you're like, should I try again? Or like, should I just get on this feature? Because this feature, like, just gets confused and breaks the whole app. I've done that I did that with a few features in that app. I, like, wanted certain stuff and it just kept breaking, so I just gave up on the feature even existed, you know?

Adam: 33:45

Yeah. Yeah. There's just so much grift going on and I feel like there's so many people trying to, like, carve out this like you can be a one man software company niche and like it just feels very fake. I don't know. Yeah.

Adam: 33:59

But I I do love the use of it for like the the Figma TUI thing that you built like is a good example. I think like people I've seen make browser extensions like personal software Yeah. Like Yeah. Like I want a Mac app that runs in the toolbar that does something for me and I'm not trying to distribute it. I'm not trying to like grow it into something.

Adam: 34:17

Think for when there's a very limited like scope, a very finite endpoint, that makes a ton of sense. Love it for that. There's a lot of good stuff that I feel like the current state of the models makes life better, like doing sysadmin stuff on your machine, like your dot files. I had it help me with some stuff in my dot files. It just like I enjoy customizing my machine and tweaking with stuff, but I don't enjoy the time sync.

Adam: 34:45

And to the extent that the model can make me faster doing some of those things, love it. And then the way you use OpenCode, I think I I did I knew I need this like watch you more. You need to make something because I still feel like I get carried away with my usage of it and I do too much relying on it. And I know you have this workflow down that's kind of like it's your little junior dev sitting next to you. I need to get more into that.

Dax: 35:08

I I was I was thinking I was thinking about how to articulate this this morning because I saw Prime's Prime posted a few things about being frustrated with how much time he wastes on trying to get AI to do something. Mhmm. And the examples he gave, I saw them and I was like surprised. It was surprising to me because in my head, I'm like, Prime dislikes AI more than me, but he seems to go to it in times that I wouldn't even think I'd go to it. Yeah.

Dax: 35:34

So like and I'm trying like codify like what are these situations? So there's some situations that where I'm just like, I know exactly what needs to be done, it's just tedious. AI is always going to be great for that. I know I I can describe it correctly and I can I know if the results are right? There's other times where I know what needs to be done but not exactly how to do it or I don't know it from memory.

Dax: 35:56

So normally, I would Google it and try to find something explaining how to do it or like a library where I look at the source and copy the code and stuff like that. Mhmm. Then I then I tell it to do stuff, do that. Or the third case is this new feature is identical to an old feature minus a few things. It's kind of the same thing as the first case, but that's another time I use it.

Dax: 36:19

So an example of that is whenever we add a new concept to our config in OpenCode, it's like I write out the shape of the object myself because I'm like thinking through how it should be. Okay. So the config object is. But we need to support loading it from the config JSON but also from a markdown file and also search up all that. Like that whole thing, I just tell it to do that and it and it does that perfectly.

Adam: 36:42

So Yeah. Because it's got that pattern. It can look Mhmm.

Dax: 36:45

So to me, it's almost like you take like this idea of snippets, which has been around forever. And I never got into that because like all the same snippets is like such, like, one remembers to do that ever. Yeah. So this is like that on steroids.

Adam: 36:58

That's so funny. I forgot about I remember feeling self conscious that I didn't have custom snippets like in my Visual Studio era. Like, I just remember thinking like, oh man, people really gotta figure out. They're making all their snippets and saving so much time. They're probably spending just as much time on authoring snippets as I was coding.

Adam: 37:14

So

Dax: 37:15

Yeah. It nets out.

Adam: 37:17

That's how I feel about like cursor rules now. It's like, man. People really know how to use AI, and I don't. I just I'm dumb, and I just say

Dax: 37:24

That's actually another good point about the because you're we're talking about over usage. This obsession with because this whole, like, agents. M d standardization, people are arguing like, oh, it's too simple. I need to do more. And I'm just like, one, the LM barely pays attention to these rules.

Dax: 37:43

It it really they don't really work that well. And people spend so much time, like, authoring these rules and, like, trying to create. So I'm just like, feel I like you guys are overusing it. Mhmm. If it worked better, then yeah, maybe I'd invest more time in it, but it just doesn't care about what you put in there.

Adam: 37:57

Yeah. There's this real problem of like, everything is anecdotal and there's no way to know what works better and like everybody thinks their setup I mean, there's people, not everybody. Some people like me think my setup is terrible. But a lot of people that are really convinced their setup is the way. And there's no way for them to really show that it's better because it's like so context specific.

Adam: 38:18

Like, my workflow feels good to me. That's about as the most you can say.

Dax: 38:24

Yeah.

Adam: 38:24

I think the Ghost Who Coder stuff is it's an interesting tangent on this conversation where like, even the people deploying these open source models don't really know if they're doing a good job Mhmm. Until somebody came along and was like, hey, for at least for this use case, you're doing a pretty shitty job. You should do better. Like, we're gonna make this harness that like tests real world programming tasks. And that's like the first feedback that these people deploying these models are trying to sell inference on these models.

Adam: 38:52

It's like the first feedback they've gotten.

Dax: 38:54

Yeah. Crazy.

Adam: 38:55

It's crazy they've

Dax: 38:55

it's crazy that they've had these models up for a while. That's one that's one thing that's crazy. Two, it's crazy there's been a bunch of tools that plug into these models.

Adam: 39:06

Mhmm.

Dax: 39:06

And just now, like, literally as of today is the first time it's getting improved. I'm like, has no one brought this up before? It actually just took a week. Like, Gozacoder posted it was it at the beginning of this week or, like, the end of last week?

Adam: 39:20

Mhmm.

Dax: 39:21

Posted it. I I said I, like, I talked about it, and I was like, we're in the market for provider. Anyone that can fix this, we wanna talk to. Mhmm. It's been a couple days and they just fixed it.

Dax: 39:31

It like took one week of focus and it's now like, you know

Adam: 39:34

Every dev knows, like, when you don't have a feedback loop, you're just in the dark. You can't make stuff better. And they just didn't have a feedback loop and now they kinda do.

Dax: 39:42

It's kinda surprising. The other thing I wanna say about this anecdotal thing is I've talked about this before but I realized I never I never connected it to this context. Whenever you switch your workflow, it doesn't matter what it is. You switch to a new editor, you get a new monitor, you switch to a new OS

Adam: 39:59

Mhmm.

Dax: 40:00

You feel a crazy productivity boost just because things are a little more exciting. Everything feels like it's faster, everything feels like it's better. And it's adds all that's happening with all these people being like, I switched to this new coding tool and like, wow, like it's great or like, I'm going so fast. Like, oh, added this new thing or I'm using this new pattern with these AI coding tools and it works really well. It's just like people need to understand there's a crazy bias when you invent a new workflow.

Dax: 40:27

You're just loving it for the novelty.

Adam: 40:29

Yeah. Yeah. And probably like you're more you're more plugged in, so you probably are getting more done because you're more excited to that point like Yeah.

Dax: 40:37

It's it's a real temporary productivity boost, but any change would give you that. Yeah. Like, you could rotate your

Adam: 40:42

I change my color scheme sometimes and I'm just pumped for like two days. I'm like,

Dax: 40:46

this looks awesome. Am

Adam: 40:48

so into this.

Dax: 40:50

It's actually a good thing. That's why I think people should spend more time tweaking their setup because it's like a free boost every Yeah. Couple months or so. Just take advantage

Adam: 40:57

of it. Yeah. It just it gets a little like add a little spice to life. When you've just been looking at the same editor for a while and then you change things up a little bit. Yeah.

Adam: 41:06

Feels good. Exactly. Keyboard, sometimes I just use a different keyboard. That feels nice.

Dax: 41:11

Yeah. Like, I I switched to this Mac Studio now a couple weeks ago and I'm like,

Adam: 41:14

Oh, yeah, Mac Studio.

Dax: 41:16

I'm like, woah, this is all great.

Adam: 41:17

I meant to ask

Dax: 41:17

you, how do you like it? To be honest, I feel like I'm going slower and I am because I'm just not as used to

Adam: 41:23

Well, you're running on your desktop. You're running macOS now?

Dax: 41:26

Yeah, yeah. I'm still using Arch for like basically everything but my entry point isn't

Adam: 41:31

Oh, because your server

Dax: 41:33

My server is yeah.

Adam: 41:34

Your server is Arch. Yeah. And you still just ssh into your server to do everything.

Dax: 41:39

Yeah. So the only that's the only thing outside of that is Discord, browser, Slack.

Adam: 41:44

Yeah. So your browser now, are you using well, I have so many questions. Are you using a Window Manager in your Mac to manage your browser in

Dax: 41:51

a I terminal tried I tried a few Window Managers. There's just like nothing like I three. Like, it's just I three is so good. And the second annoying thing is, I guess Mac OS doesn't have APIs to make the Windows like Chrome less. So when I use a window manager, it feels like clunky where I'm like, this is this doesn't feel like this is the way Mac should be used.

Dax: 42:15

Yeah. So now I'm just like, I'm just full screening every single app.

Adam: 42:18

Oh, really? And you do like the workspace thing? Like you swipe?

Dax: 42:21

No. Not not not not not like Mac OS full screening. I'm just like like, have the window.

Adam: 42:26

Oh. Mhmm.

Dax: 42:27

And I just have a different hotkey bound to every one of my standard apps. So like

Adam: 42:32

Oh, okay.

Dax: 42:33

Meta one. I don't what the key is. I guess it's option. Option one brings up my terminal. Option two brings up my browser.

Dax: 42:40

Option three brings up Slack, option four brings up Discord. Gotcha. And that's like my like bootleg window manager. I just built this on like Raycast shortcuts.

Adam: 42:49

Oh, interesting.

Dax: 42:50

And they're all full screened, but I'm not gonna I'm gonna go deep into this. So I currently have an ultra wide monitor and it's on Linux because I could cut it up into two virtual Yeah.

Adam: 43:00

Wait. Wait. Like one of those curved ones?

Dax: 43:02

Not curved. It's it's not it's not that crazy. It's a five k monitor that is it's like a four k monitor plus another third on the resolution just it it's like the same DPI, just extended. Okay. Mhmm.

Dax: 43:16

And in on Linux, there were APIs to split a single monitor into two virtual monitors. So my OS would see this as two monitors that were plugged in. Even though there's one physical monitor. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax: 43:26

So I could have like I could have independent control of this like left third Mhmm. And then independent control of like the main two thirds. Yeah. So everything we got main two thirds and I had like auxiliary stuff on that and I went on a flip between them.

Adam: 43:39

That actually sounds really nice to be honest. I feel like I need another third of a monitor.

Dax: 43:43

I'm struggling

Adam: 43:44

with like I don't need a whole second monitor but like another third would be really nice.

Dax: 43:48

Sorry. Yeah. So I used to just put like Slack, Discord, my browser there. So my terminal would basically always be up and I would just like flip between those on the Yeah. On that secondary screen.

Dax: 43:59

So that was really nice. On macOS, it's not possible to do this at all, which sucks. So now I'm not even using that third. I just like I literally set all my Windows to be just in the main four k space and I have like kinda something on there, but it's not usable. So I now bought a new monitor.

Dax: 44:21

Alright. Pre ordered it. It's not out yet. But it's for someone finally put out a competitor to the Mac OS Studio Display, the big one.

Adam: 44:31

Oh, really?

Dax: 44:31

Yeah. It's like basically all the same specs, a lot of nice details, and it's 1,400 as opposed to five k. Yeah. So this is now just a normal so then it's a six k screen, so it's not ultra wide, it's like a normal dimension. Yeah.

Dax: 44:45

So when that comes, I'll just switch to that. I'm just gonna be like a one app at a time full screen situation.

Adam: 44:50

Oh, wow. Okay. What was the so I never really asked what was the impetus to switch to the Mac Studio. Like, what drew you into that change? You were just tired of building your own p PCs?

Dax: 45:01

I wanted to simplify my desk. It just there's way too much shit on my desk.

Adam: 45:06

That's a big Yeah. Pro of the Mac stuff. Like, the studio just Yeah. Looks It

Dax: 45:11

nice. Then I had so much auxiliary equipment because of my desktop setup. Like, I had okay. Had the DSLR camera which needed like a dummy battery and we didn't need it just had like so many wires and stuff. Mhmm.

Dax: 45:23

If I get forgot the Mac, I could use my iPhone. So now I'm just using my iPhone as a camera. So that's simplified, like, a whole bunch of stuff on my desk. Mhmm. I also just wanted it, like, all the I guess, I wanna simplify all my media stuff on my, like, my audio stuff as well.

Dax: 45:39

Like, my mic got simplified because I'm able to use an interface that is nicer, that works well with Mac. Mhmm. So, yeah, that was that was a reason. And I think I basically trialed it with my MacBook Air because I've been using my MacBook Air, SSH into Linux. And I basically don't miss anything.

Dax: 45:56

All the things I love about Linux, I still get. And like most of my day is spent in Linux. But like some of the just nice day to day stuff is better on Mac. Like, oh, like my text messages are on my computer now. Mhmm.

Dax: 46:08

Yeah. All those integrations and stuff.

Adam: 46:11

Mhmm.

Dax: 46:12

But yeah, I'm I'm pretty happy with the setup. But yeah, that some of these these monitor things made my workflow a little bit worse.

Adam: 46:19

Yeah. Have you with the Mac Studio, have you run any local models like LM Studio?

Dax: 46:24

Yeah, did. Yeah. So I I I did the Quen three coder 30,000,000,000, works super well, super fast. I'm pretty blown away by how literally the moment like, Apple came out with this new architecture, their M chips Mhmm. They have this, like, integrated memory thing.

Dax: 46:44

They came out with that and two years later, this Atlas Local LLM thing showed up as, like, the perfect use case.

Adam: 46:49

It really is.

Dax: 46:50

So it's kinda wild, the timing of all that.

Adam: 46:52

Like, at at a minimum, that Quinn three coder 30,000,000,000 feels like I should be using that for certain tasks, like for agents that are very specifically I don't know, like the task agent, like doing grepping and stuff. Just like searching through files. That being or just being your small model in OpenCode.

Dax: 47:11

Mhmm.

Adam: 47:12

I feel like it's good enough to do that stuff and then it's just local and fast and free. Yeah. Like, I mean, not that the small model is really costing you much, guess, when you're doing like title generation or whatever in open code. We're getting into the weeds. But it does feel like at a minimum running a local model just to do those kind of stupid tasks, it's not your big brain model that's like

Dax: 47:32

Yeah. Doing

Adam: 47:35

But maybe it's good enough for that, I don't know.

Dax: 47:36

Yeah. I mean, it's a it's I'm pretty like Overall, my this Mac Studio thing is is really cool. It's like a single box with like a single wire that comes out of it. So Mhmm. They have like their exact right ports.

Dax: 47:50

It's also funny to me like this thing is so stripped down, but they still have an SD card slot. Like the thing that I know, yeah. Never need. Yeah. Like it's it's made for like, you know, creative so

Adam: 47:59

Media people. I get that.

Dax: 48:01

But it's like the one special port they have in it up. But besides that, it's a bunch of Thunderbolt things. Yeah. It's it's 2,000. Like, I think that's totally reasonable for something that's good.

Dax: 48:10

Yeah. So I'm pretty happy with it. Just like I said, I wish window management on Mac, honestly, on anywhere except for Linux has like never really been

Adam: 48:18

Yeah. Figured I use aerospace and it's funny like there's all kinds of weird quirks and it's probably just the like you said, the limits of the Mac APIs or whatever. Yeah. Like, it actually when you use the multiple workspace thing in aerospace, it's actually just shoving all the windows down to the bottom right corner and like making them tiny. So, you can kinda see them like, you can see the edge of them.

Adam: 48:39

You can actually grab one pull it. It's just like very ghetto version of Yeah. What a real window manager does, I guess.

Dax: 48:49

That is funny. Yeah. I guess they just don't have the right right APIs. But you know, I was I was able to get Westerm to be chrome less and like edge to edge and it looks Yeah. It looks really nice.

Adam: 49:01

So what make the Westerm pitch. I see a lot of people really praising Westerm. I just I thought Ghosty was just like the one and just we all had been waiting for Ghosty and now it's the best. But Westerm's better.

Dax: 49:12

No. I mean, Ghosty is really good too. I think for me it was just that Ghosty I tried to use Ghosty and it had a few bugs initially in their one point o around like clicking links in my specific setup. Mhmm. It was like some combination of like if you remove all the window decoration stuff, like something messed up with the links, especially on Linux.

Dax: 49:31

Yeah. And I just didn't feel like dealing with that, so I went back to Westerm. The other thing is is when I switched to Westerm, I was also doing a bunch of NeoVim config and they both use Lua, so there was just like a nice synergy there. Mhmm. Not that there's like a ton of config.

Dax: 49:44

I don't know. For me, it's just that it's basically as good as GoC and I feel they're equivalent. I'm sure there's like technicalities that are different to them, but I could probably switch a Ghostie and not tell.

Adam: 49:57

I've I've seen like a a little resurgence or just like a little movement on Twitter around like, why why are you still using TMux? Like, just Ghostie has tabs. It's like people trying to make

Dax: 50:10

the That was the whole point of Ghosty, right? Like, I mean, it's it's it is funny. Like, Ghosty puts in all this effort of, like, parsing ANSI and rendering it really fast

Adam: 50:19

Mhmm.

Dax: 50:19

Just for you to run TMux TMux. Which then does all of that again.

Adam: 50:24

I I felt the pain So

Dax: 50:25

I get that.

Adam: 50:26

As we worked on these TUIs, I felt the pain of having TMux between the TUI and the emulator Mhmm. Because it just like intercepts certain stuff and breaks certain functionality. Like, a lot of people shift enders not working because they're using TMux. You have to configure it to make

Dax: 50:41

it Yeah. That's me.

Adam: 50:42

Yeah. So but my problem, I guess, and maybe you know the answer to this right off the bat, like, I wanted to get away from TMux like, I have reasons I would like to actually get away from TMux. Does Ghosty like, I know I can open tabs, but like, does it have this notion of like it's running outside like, if I close the Ghosty window, am I killing all those processes?

Dax: 51:02

I am. I'm pretty sure you are.

Adam: 51:04

Yeah. They don't have something equivalent to TMux.

Dax: 51:07

Yeah. And for me, like, I'm SSH 10, so, like, I can't use ghosts. I'm like, no, have a new SAS session for each

Adam: 51:13

Right.

Dax: 51:14

Ghosts tab or whatever. So I have to use TMux. Like, that's never gonna change. And the other thing is like the t mugs model of like their sessions, sessions have windows and then windows have panes and you can like Mhmm. Sessions.

Dax: 51:26

Mhmm. I don't think go see is set up with that exact structure. I I really like that.

Adam: 51:31

I do too. Yeah. I use each Yeah. One of those things. I know you don't like the way I use panes and I zoom and do stupid stuff, but but like I use like I navigate through sessions, windows, and panes in TMux.

Adam: 51:42

Yeah. And I don't yeah. I didn't think there was an equivalent in Go See. It's just you have tabs.

Dax: 51:45

Yeah. And they're all just kind of laid out full screen. I'd like to see I think I've seen this somewhere. It was actually maybe it's the iTerm. It's like I think it was like really random what terminal it was.

Dax: 51:54

There was some terminal that integrated with TMux, but then like showed the splits natively in the I don't remember exactly how it works, but what I would like is if my terminal somehow was like aware of my SSH session, so it just created one SSH session, SSH connection. Mhmm. And if I opened up like native tabs in my terminal, that should still just use one SSH session and like Oh, like interesting. Different processes over it. Mhmm.

Dax: 52:28

That would be cool if they went that deep, but like, team mugs are just like a normalizer. Like, normalizes whether I'm SSH ed and I'm managing different sessions or I'm using doing something local, it's like the same experience. Yeah. So because of that, I can't give it up. But yeah, it is weird that I'm like, there's so many layers of this Mhmm.

Dax: 52:47

Of this anti Like, processing going

Adam: 52:49

just dealing with seeing all the GitHub issues with random environments people have. I just want things to be simpler. So it's like I want to rebel against this layer of TMux slash Zelda j or whatever. I'd like, I want those things to just not exist anymore because I work on Tooie's.

Dax: 53:06

It would

Adam: 53:06

just make life easier. But, yeah, as a user of TMux, I'm so my muscle memory is so bound and that it'd be tough to to leave.

Dax: 53:16

Yeah. But it is funny, like, I'm pretty sure a lot of reasons why Mitchell made Ghosty was to get rid of the need for TMux. But yeah, I don't I think for me practically it it cannot.

Adam: 53:28

We haven't talked at all. Have we talked on the podcast about OpenTui?

Dax: 53:30

No, we haven't. We should talk about

Adam: 53:31

Oh, really, right? Man, so exciting. Like, the developers working on it. I mean, Sebastian for one. Shout out Sebastian.

Adam: 53:41

It's incredible. And then there's like a little team forming, building out adapters for Solid and React.

Dax: 53:47

Yeah. It's very exciting really good. Like, all of them are are are very talented. I think there's now the Sebastian plus three, I think there is, working on this stuff. And everyone's on different time zones, so, like There's always something this because it's like someone's going to bed and someone's waking up.

Dax: 54:03

So there's just, like, continuous work happening on this.

Adam: 54:05

It never stops.

Dax: 54:06

You can

Adam: 54:06

just look channel on our Discord.

Dax: 54:08

It's like trading Bitcoin and never sleeps.

Adam: 54:11

Markets never closed. Yeah.

Dax: 54:14

And then yeah. They're so good and yeah. Sebastian's so good at like handling some of these low level things natively. Like, so he's working on Unicode support right now, which means he's in hell, like, being like, oh, Arabic characters are, like, running weirdly. But which is awesome because once he solves it there, you know, it's gonna be so that translations we do, like, all the people using us in Chinese, like, it's all just gonna Mhmm.

Dax: 54:35

Gonna gonna work nicely and that is really important and valuable. Mhmm.

Adam: 54:39

I was just gonna say I can't believe I've built, like, all I've spent all the time building these two TUIs with something else. Because OpenTui is gonna come along and be such a nicer developer experience. And it's like I didn't know this could exist for building Tuis, how nice it's gonna be. I mean, I know people like have a similar sort of dev touchpoint with something like Ink. Mhmm.

Adam: 55:00

If but like if Ink were like super performant and like way more low level primitives available to do crazy shit, like Mhmm. I mean, people just immediately as soon as OpenTui went up, like the GitHub repo was on GitHub, it's like people started building some crazy cool stuff And just with the low level primitives. And now, these kind of baking in the layout stuff and then

Dax: 55:22

the React and Solid libraries will let you

Adam: 55:25

just kind of do the ink thing. It's it's just amazing how good Open two e is, how fast, like how how impactful this is gonna be in the landscape.

Dax: 55:34

Yeah. I think every think I think one, there's gonna be so many Tues that now exist just because it's so easy to build one.

Adam: 55:39

Mhmm.

Dax: 55:40

And some of these other I'm hoping some of these other projects move to it. I think it's kinda like a no brainer. The other thing that I've been super excited by is seeing because I so I've always known that Bunn had good FFI, the foreign function interface. Mhmm. And I know and I've known that Zig is very good at cross compiling and and all of that.

Dax: 56:00

But seeing it up close with Open two d with how easily Sebastian like moves stuff into Zig and like makes it accessible Mhmm. It's really motivated me to do that more. That's actually one superpower of us using BUN is it's like that stuff is really figured out and it's super useful. So I was thinking like, you know, we use ripgrep in a bunch of places Mhmm. And we spawn a ripgrep process and like do it in this hacky way.

Dax: 56:29

And this also means we have to download ripgrep and like make sure there's there's so many complexities that come with trying to do that and we did handle them and and it works. But we should just compile ripgrep into our binary and call it natively. And we can do that because Bunz FFI is is so easy to use and so good. So am I looking at all now I'm like, oh, I need to look at the whole world of what's available. Right?

Dax: 56:54

It's not just JavaScript libraries that are available, it's C libraries and C plus plus library, there's Rust libraries. And that's got that's got me really excited. Like all the git stuff we do right now, spawning git. No, I should just compile the git two into Yeah. Into our binary.

Dax: 57:12

That's gonna be awesome. And the second thing is anything that we do implement in JavaScript, if it turns out it's a bottleneck, now we can easily move it lower level as we need to.

Adam: 57:23

Yeah. Very cool.

Dax: 57:24

Yeah. So we we just need figure out some of the like the CI stuff to like make sure we're cross compiling everything properly. Mhmm. Yeah. Once that's set up, this is just like a really awesome stack.

Adam: 57:34

That stuff hurts my head. Like every time I am am I made aware of the fact that we have to distribute this to all these different types of environments Yeah. And all that you must be doing in CI? Just like hurts my brain. I just I'm glad

Dax: 57:48

you do that stuff because you. Yeah. Just I mean, that's just again, this is one of those things where you just develop a sense of that over years of doing open source stuff. Going back to like some of the things that are annoying, people are always telling us like, you should have built this stuff in Python or like in some other language because they'd like some library or whatever that that's there. And I always explained to them, we don't do we had to eliminate a whole bunch of options because it adds an extra step to someone using our product.

Dax: 58:19

Oh, they have to install UV. And every single person when I say this, like, it's not a big deal. Yeah. That's that's like, what what's so hard about that? I'm like, you're right.

Dax: 58:28

It's not that hard, but it's an extra step. When you're trying to build something from, like, mass adoption, like, you have to be so maniacal about eliminating those. Mhmm. And almost nobody and like, no developers understand that at all. So they all have the they, like, look at our setup and they're just like, oh, that's weird or that's dumb.

Dax: 58:45

And I think we chose it because we didn't know about alternatives. But Yeah. Like, when we you remember when we were initially, like, starting this from scratch, I was like, hey, guys. I landed on a really weird setup. I know it seems really weird and crazy, but I think it makes sense because of these constraints.

Dax: 59:03

And once we talked through them, it was like, yeah, this is actually the only option that that satisfies everything. So, people always underestimate how much work other people put into, like, the decisions they made. It's not just Mhmm. Oh, I didn't know about it, I just went with whatever I knew, you know, today. People kind of assume that's Yeah.

Dax: 59:18

What it

Adam: 59:18

It's very easy to be a Twitter person and just be like, oh, you just like TypeScript? You just haven't learned any other language? You're dumb. Yeah.

Dax: 59:26

So you just Yeah. It's it's like that one's so funny because like, why did we do that? A big reason for me using Bun was, oh, we can load TypeScript files dynamically that means our plug in system is going to be better than everyone else's plug in system by far. You know, we could do Lua, but again, the percentage of people that know Lua versus know TypeScript Mhmm. Totally different.

Dax: 59:51

So, yeah, like, every decision is very we we've agonized over every decision. Nothing is done, like, flippantly.

Adam: 59:57

Yeah. From the outside, it's not always clear. It just seems

Dax: 01:00:00

I think people kinda tell on themselves because they're like, oh, you just did this because you like this or you know this. Cause that's how you make decisions, right? That's how you see the world because that's how you make decisions. Yeah. Think we should just have done it in Go because you just like Go and you use it for everything.

Dax: 01:00:13

But yeah, it's coming together really, really, really nicely and I think it's showing up in the fact that all these really super talented people are like excited about working on Mhmm. On on this stuff and doing like pretty crazy things with it.

Adam: 01:00:27

There's like a very medium to short term date on the calendar where I will never write Go again and I cannot tell you.

Dax: 01:00:37

I was thinking about this too.

Adam: 01:00:38

Yeah. How exciting that is to me. And I'm not like trying to shit on Go. I don't care. Like Go is whatever.

Adam: 01:00:43

But just like the process of building the two Es that I've built in Go, I do not enjoy and I am ready to never have those problems again. I'm so tired of subtracting random numbers till I get layout to work from like just like there's so many things that are not baked into the framework we've been using that it's very frustrating and I'm excited to not do anymore is what I'll say. And just like Go has a lot of stuff when you're just like interacting with an API. There's just like you're smart enough to understand

Dax: 01:01:13

So much overhead.

Adam: 01:01:13

Yeah. There's just so much like boilerplate to like send an API request. It just makes me so sad because I know it doesn't have to be that way.

Dax: 01:01:21

Yeah. Everything has to be a pointer. So then everyone has to wrap it in like some other function that turns it into a point. It's

Adam: 01:01:26

just Uh-huh.

Dax: 01:01:26

It's just yeah. The API stuff is really bad because I think what's interesting about Go is if you look at a self contained Go app, it's probably fine because like it's following Go isms everywhere. Like, oh, there's no the concept of zero values and like, you know, it's weird to make an integer a nil. Okay. That's fine in like your little self contained Go app.

Dax: 01:01:50

Like, there's no like type unions. You just have to make interface with every single subtype and then they're all nil except for the one that it is. Like, that's all fine. The moment you need to interface with a real world outside of Go, like an API or something, all those things exist. Like, there are fields that can be nil.

Dax: 01:02:07

Like, there are type unions. Like, there's all that stuff. So it's it just it just gets painful there. Mhmm. I had the same feeling about realizing I probably won't be writing anymore Go, not because of the TUI stuff, but doing the bun single file executable stuff.

Dax: 01:02:21

Because that to me is when I went to Go. I was like, okay. This is the only way I can make something that can run anywhere. Single binary download run anywhere is really great for the end user experience. So I am willing to write Go to make that happen.

Dax: 01:02:34

Also, like decent performance and all that. But now we have that with Bun. Mhmm. So I'm like, all the reasons where I would I was going to Go is now is now finally gone. And all the FFI stuff is much better in Bun than in Go, which is which is great.

Dax: 01:02:50

Like Go has some weird C stuff when you have like C libraries involved. It's kind of annoying. Yeah. So I also probably am never gonna write Go. Pretty crazy.

Adam: 01:03:01

Yep. Would detractors and Twitter people say like the downside to these bun single file executables is just the size. Like it has to bundle has a shove bun in there too. It's a runtime. But like Yeah.

Adam: 01:03:14

Has anyone has anyone, a single person on the OpenCode repo complained about the size of the executable? I've not heard one complaint.

Dax: 01:03:21

Yeah. So executables are big. So I think it's like around a 100 megabytes, like on average across all the different cross platform builds. But our previous oh, by the way, 20 megabytes of those is the Go binary that we have in there, which will will go away at some point.

Adam: 01:03:37

Yeah.

Dax: 01:03:38

The previous pure Go one was like 40.

Adam: 01:03:40

If you take out the Go binary, we we doubled.

Dax: 01:03:43

We we doubled it. So it's definitely bigger but like 40 versus 80 to a 100, like nobody that's not practically making a difference for anyone.

Adam: 01:03:52

Yeah. Is it just we're at the stage of Internet bandwidths and adoption of, like For for a tool

Dax: 01:03:58

like this that's like running you install once and it's like running on your local machine or it gets download during CI. If it's running GitHub actions, it's getting downloaded from GitHub. It's like it's like, you know, it's installing it from itself. So it's pretty fast. So all the places where it would show up, like, it's fine.

Dax: 01:04:13

I think you could argue, like, maybe embedded use cases, like the order Sure. About Yeah. Like it probably doesn't doesn't work well there. And I will say the like Codec CLI, which doesn't do much yet at all, the one that's written in Rust, it's a lot smaller. Oh, it's like sub it's like sub one megabyte.

Dax: 01:04:32

Yeah. It's it's it's very small. So that's I can see that being a okay. That's like It's attractive.

Adam: 01:04:37

I get like the draw to like a lightweight binary. I know why that's attractive to people. But it's just funny that no one's complained. I feel like no one has said Yeah.

Dax: 01:04:48

That's not an issue.

Adam: 01:04:48

And I thought going in, I was self conscious like, oh, it's gonna be this giant binary and people are gonna be upset. Maybe they didn't know. Maybe now they know and we're gonna get all the complaints.

Dax: 01:04:57

Well, that's the point. If you didn't know, then it didn't matter.

Adam: 01:05:00

Then why didn't you know? Yeah. Exactly. It didn't show up anyway.

Dax: 01:05:02

The Codex one is I am like, wow, it's crazy how small these things can be. And to be fair, like, is just a thing that calls APIs. Like, it doesn't have to be that It could be pretty small. Yeah. But, you know, eventually, you're gonna have to put CodecityLi is not doing much.

Dax: 01:05:16

If they want to implement snapshots, you're gonna have to put git in there.

Adam: 01:05:19

Yeah, sure.

Dax: 01:05:19

That's gonna inflate the size. This is one of those things where like it's good to be memory efficient, space efficient, etcetera. But it's bad to not use the resources, you know? Like memory is there to be used. You can use memory to make things go faster.

Dax: 01:05:37

You can use this space to like have more functionality or simplify other things. So yeah, think infinitely trying to optimize them to zero. Doesn't make sense.

Adam: 01:05:46

Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Anything else you want to talk about today?

Dax: 01:05:51

No? No? It's everything. It's Friday.

Adam: 01:05:55

Hey, have a baby. Why don't you? I want to.

Dax: 01:05:57

Every every morning I wake up opening there's a baby, but there isn't.

Adam: 01:06:00

Just hope you wake up and she already had it. I'd have tell you accidentally in her sleep.

Dax: 01:06:08

It's funny. I keep telling her, just text me when you're done. And I've been saying this from the beginning as a joke, but now she's like, she's like, I kinda just wanna do this on my own. Like, I just wanna go off my own and have the baby. I'm like

Adam: 01:06:20

I hear Liz saying that. That's so funny. That's I can hear that.

Dax: 01:06:23

That because like if I have to do this like intense kind of scary thing, I know some people want like a bunch of support around them, but I just like wanna handle it in private, you know. So I I kinda get that for sure. Did you like cut the cord? What cord? Like when the baby's born, you cut the cord?

Adam: 01:06:42

Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Forgot baby. I'm I'm holding my like headphone cord and I was like, cut the cord.

Adam: 01:06:49

What? Sorry, forgot we were talking about babies. Yes, I did. I cut the cord both times I think. I think.

Dax: 01:06:54

So, I I have no it's not like I don't wanna do it, I just don't have a particular desire to do it.

Adam: 01:06:58

You're saying. But Yeah. I didn't Yeah. They asked me, they're like, do and you can't be a dick and be like, no, I'd not. Yeah.

Adam: 01:07:05

That just sounds But

Dax: 01:07:06

Liz really wants to do it. Like, she really Oh, wants interested to do in it. So I'm so we're just gonna let her do it. Yeah.

Adam: 01:07:12

Wow. She's multitasking. Like, she's busy delivering the baby and

Dax: 01:07:15

then she's like, how it that moment. But Yeah. We'll see.

Adam: 01:07:20

Yeah. It's funny. There's things like that and it's like, I guess some people are like, yes, I want to do that. And that is not me and I don't know what what's missing in my brain.

Dax: 01:07:29

Yeah. I got For me, I mean, I'm not against symbolic things. Like, I'm into symbolic things in bunch of places. This one, I just don't it doesn't connect to me in any way. Mhmm.

Dax: 01:07:38

It feels like a technicality Yeah. More like anything. Uh-huh. Symbolic. Yeah.

Dax: 01:07:45

But we'll see. Could happen today, could happen tomorrow, could happen a week from now, could happen two weeks from now.

Adam: 01:07:50

So Two weeks from now? Jeez.

Dax: 01:07:52

Because, yeah, technically, she's forty weeks on Sunday. Yeah. So I I guess I go it would happen a week. And they don't they wouldn't induce until forty one weeks.

Adam: 01:08:02

Forty one weeks? So my old or my littlest, well, he went forty two. He was two weeks late when they induced. I don't think he was ever coming out. He was just good in there.

Dax: 01:08:11

That was me. I I didn't I didn't wanna come

Adam: 01:08:13

out. Really? Just like chilling.

Dax: 01:08:15

I was chilling.

Adam: 01:08:15

I everything

Dax: 01:08:16

I need.

Adam: 01:08:17

It's warm. It's cozy.

Dax: 01:08:18

Yeah. Being born sucks. About it. Think about that transition. You're just like

Adam: 01:08:24

Oh, yeah. No.

Dax: 01:08:25

You're really cozy, you're safe. You don't have do anything. You don't have to poop. Just you just and you're just like, in your field

Adam: 01:08:31

position. Like you're a Google employee. Just like, don't have to do anything.

Dax: 01:08:36

I mean, being born is like founding a startup.

Adam: 01:08:38

Yeah. I mean, it's like an uncomfortable experience to come out, I'm sure.

Dax: 01:08:42

Like Yeah.

Adam: 01:08:43

That's like your head is being smashed and deformed. Yeah.

Dax: 01:08:46

And then it's cold. It's cold. Yeah. You're you're feeling cold for

Adam: 01:08:50

the first time? Yeah. Good call.

Dax: 01:08:53

And you gotta like learn

Adam: 01:08:54

how to

Dax: 01:08:54

eat and you gotta poop on yourself. Yeah. It's pretty miserable.

Adam: 01:08:58

It's so weird Is this so weird how we don't remember being a baby? Is that weird to you when you really think Yeah, about

Dax: 01:09:04

it's crazy.

Adam: 01:09:04

Why don't we? Is it because our parents remember?

Dax: 01:09:07

No. I think it's weird that our parents remember, but from my point of view, it's like I didn't even exist until

Adam: 01:09:11

Yeah. Like Like, there's some arbitrary moment where you start having memories and like, why?

Dax: 01:09:17

I keep joking about this where I'm like, there's no point interacting with the baby until she's three because she's not gonna remember. Like, why take her to the playground? Why take her to the Oh.

Adam: 01:09:26

Because I don't remember. There are things that I think

Dax: 01:09:29

Yes. I I know it.

Adam: 01:09:30

Like, It still affects them.

Dax: 01:09:32

Yeah.

Adam: 01:09:32

Affects them. Yes. It's weird that they won't Yeah. Have the

Dax: 01:09:35

It's like it's like from their point of view, it's like it literally didn't happen.

Adam: 01:09:39

Yeah. So crazy. Man, biology and just human everything, once you have a baby, you realize how like wild. We just made this thing. Like, this is half you and half me and it's like a lot.

Dax: 01:09:52

It's like

Adam: 01:09:53

sci fi. So freaky.

Dax: 01:09:55

Yeah. And people used to do this like in the jungle, like what the heck?

Adam: 01:09:57

Oh my god. Yeah. That's crazy. Well, and then like also half of them died after childbirth,

Dax: 01:10:03

so Yeah. I mean, but the ones that didn't, you know, now you just have

Adam: 01:10:06

Yeah.

Dax: 01:10:07

This baby was effectively the same it's not like it's not like babies were different back then, like, just totally helpless Yes.

Adam: 01:10:13

Can you imagine baby that Yeah. Can't be making trying to keep a baby alive in the woods when you like

Dax: 01:10:20

I guess you were just literally breastfeeding twenty four seven.

Adam: 01:10:22

Is that how it worked? Did they need more milk then?

Dax: 01:10:25

It's not that they needed more milk, it's just that there was nothing else for you to do. Like, you would just sit and focus on the baby and you would just

Adam: 01:10:33

Interesting.

Dax: 01:10:34

Feed it constantly. And I guess whoever's around you, like, would try to feed you. Like, it's not it's not like they were like, oh, my husband has to go to work. Like, I have to go to work or like, I have to Yeah. Do the laundry.

Adam: 01:10:44

You know what She's like, this is your only job? Yeah. It's like Feed the baby.

Dax: 01:10:48

Way because it's so difficult. So I don't know how else they could even

Adam: 01:10:51

Yeah.

Dax: 01:10:51

Pull it off. No modern technology. Interesting. Yeah. You also don't even know when it's gonna come.

Dax: 01:10:57

You don't know, like Yeah. Hey, yeah. It's crap. I can't believe we survived. Our ancestors, people we're related to.

Adam: 01:11:02

I can't it's actually wild. Yeah. It's actually kind of wild when you think that, like, humanity made it. Like, when you think about how hard even just like a hundred and fifty years ago, like, it was hard in like a semi modern world where they had to like Yeah. Farm for their food.

Adam: 01:11:18

Can you imagine if we spent all our time just like raising and growing food that we didn't die in the winter? Like, that's crazy. And that was like our great grandparents. You know what I mean?

Dax: 01:11:29

Yeah.

Adam: 01:11:29

We've made it through some tough eras. All the the eras with all the castles and dragons and shit And like people stabbing each other with and having shields. Can you imagine owning a shield? What in the world? We've survived some crazy stuff.

Dax: 01:11:44

Yeah. I always think about how like war back in the day was so crazy because like it's just a big wrestling match and it's not like you just half your people like, you go one on one with someone, like, it's a chance that one person dies. You do that with the whole army. It's just like, there's no victory. Like, one side makes my 10 ks win, but you're just it's a bunch of people It's bunch of people die.

Dax: 01:12:07

Wrestling each other to death, more

Adam: 01:12:08

or less.

Dax: 01:12:09

It's not like there were like these cool sword fights happening. I'm pretty

Adam: 01:12:11

sure Yeah. Like, Yeah. Like, where they're

Dax: 01:12:14

did swords for a little bit and then just start smashing it with their helmets. Like, it's probably Yeah.

Adam: 01:12:18

Oh, man. That's so true. I'm surprised there's not some movie that tried to get really realistic with this stuff. I feel like that's like an artistic thing somebody would have done.

Dax: 01:12:25

There must be. There must be something way more barbaric. There probably is. That was war. It was just like total fifty fifty shot.

Dax: 01:12:33

And then like the the king would, like, lead the battle charge, then, like, you have, like, a 50 chance

Adam: 01:12:39

Did they actually fight back then?

Dax: 01:12:40

That was a huge thing. Yeah. Like, I mean, that was your job as a king. Like, you had to

Adam: 01:12:44

Wow. Lead

Dax: 01:12:45

lead the lead the charge.

Adam: 01:12:46

We were Casey and I were just talking about how much it sucks that, like, all these fat cats and they're, like

Dax: 01:12:51

Yeah. A bird. If he totally changes Smoke the guard. Incentives. Yeah.

Adam: 01:12:55

Like, you okay. They're gonna fight them. Send them off. Like, they're not suffering any the consequences.

Dax: 01:13:01

And it's crazy to think that I thinking was about this yesterday. I'm like, if there was a war today that was really intense and there was a draft, I would not get drafted. I'm already too old. And I've been too old to get drafted for a long time.

Adam: 01:13:12

Oh, really?

Dax: 01:13:13

You're too

Adam: 01:13:13

old to get drafted? I can drop that fear out of my mind along with Booksand and all the other Yeah, Chris.

Dax: 01:13:21

Still thought I could

Adam: 01:13:22

get drafted, honestly. I'm almost 40. I didn't know there

Dax: 01:13:25

was But if you look at if you look at wars, they literally just pick people from the ages of, like, eight 18 to 22, and they just throw them

Adam: 01:13:32

Are into you serious? Oh my god. Now, gotta start stressing about my kid getting drafted in like 10

Dax: 01:13:37

It's it's like so messed up. It's like a surge like, think about it in terms of high school like like, imagine like your cohort in high school like Mhmm. People in your class, upper class that you remember, the people below you remembered. Uh-huh. Imagine that there's like a war that happens.

Dax: 01:13:50

It's just that cohort of people that just gets fucked.

Adam: 01:13:53

Ugh.

Dax: 01:13:53

And like, they all just go die and everyone else is just like

Adam: 01:13:56

That sucks.

Dax: 01:13:57

It's fine. I mean, that like, we look at like World War two and stuff, you know.

Adam: 01:14:00

Like 18 year olds are babies. I mean, 20, 22 year olds are just babies. Like, that's crazy. We send babies off to kill each other.

Dax: 01:14:08

Yeah.

Adam: 01:14:08

What in the world? I'm sorry. I'm just like I'm not trying to like get into like anti war propaganda or something. Is that propaganda? I don't know.

Dax: 01:14:16

No. I think it's good to be anti war.

Adam: 01:14:17

Yeah. It's actually kind of insane.

Dax: 01:14:19

It's crazy that's how that works. But it's also what makes sense like it but it's crazy that's what that's what makes sense.

Adam: 01:14:24

Damn. You just wish it could all not have to be that way. Yeah. Does it have to be that way? I don't know.

Dax: 01:14:29

Yeah. It has to be that way.

Adam: 01:14:30

It has to be that. It's like something But then like But then honestly, like there's a lot of wars that are just really stupid.

Dax: 01:14:36

No. Yes. Lot of are stupid. Yes. A lot of American

Adam: 01:14:38

wars George W. Bush is considered like the worst president ever because he just basically like made up a war. And like, that was the first time we've done it, but like the whole Iraq thing. Like, why did we go to Iraq? I still don't understand.

Dax: 01:14:49

It's dumb. I remember that era.

Adam: 01:14:50

Like, nine eleven happens. And it was like, we're going

Dax: 01:14:52

to Iraq.

Adam: 01:14:53

Wait. What? Why?

Dax: 01:14:56

Because of because of those Saudi Arabian terrorists who are going to Iraq.

Adam: 01:15:01

Yeah. What in the world? Oh my god.

Dax: 01:15:03

This guy. I get get why there's

Adam: 01:15:05

people across the world that don't like us. I kinda get it.

Dax: 01:15:08

Yeah. But that's woah. How do we even get on this topic?

Adam: 01:15:13

I don't know. How do we land this plane?

Dax: 01:15:16

Anyway, don't go to war.

Adam: 01:15:19

Don't go to war. Don't send your babies to war. Maybe we got on it because you're having a kid, and we just started realizing life is precious. I don't know.

Dax: 01:15:26

Oh, okay. That's another thing. It's like anytime you see these movies and there's like there's like soldiers dying or whatever, each soldier that dies, like, man, it's not meant to be pregnant with them for like nine and then like raise them for eighteen years. And that's one that's one casualty. Think about these like crazy Russian casualties and like all those wars they lost like one in three people or whatever.

Dax: 01:15:51

That was so much work for each Yeah. Person, you To feed them, keep them alive, like teach them about life and and all that.

Adam: 01:15:57

Oh my god. Yeah. Wow. I never really thought about that. Like, in these like crazy days in history, like d day or whatever, where there was like or the Battle of the Bulls, where there's like huge numbers of casualties.

Adam: 01:16:09

Just like the human toll that that is.

Dax: 01:16:11

Like, like, Like, many parents put in so many hours of time for each each It's like, you think about like building a an airplane, that's a lot of work. That's like Mhmm. You think about an airplane in like less than a year, you know?

Adam: 01:16:25

Yeah. This is eighteen years of raising a child.

Dax: 01:16:28

But, yeah. A person is a is a lot of work. Yeah.

Adam: 01:16:32

Oh, man.

Dax: 01:16:32

And it can't be paralyzed either. You can't make it go faster. It's it's it's wild.

Adam: 01:16:36

Ugh. I'm feeling gross now. I don't like the end of we we keep doing this. The end of our last podcast, we were like, and then that guy died. Okay.

Adam: 01:16:43

See you. We got we got we got to stay away from

Dax: 01:16:47

like This is what you guys get for listening Yeah.

Adam: 01:16:49

To the end. You listen to the end and you're gonna get the morbid stuff. Yeah. Well, anyway

Dax: 01:16:55

Wish you good

Adam: 01:16:55

day, Dax. Alright. See you.