Dax Is Ready to Be So Right About Parenting
You're getting ready to enter into a different phase of life. I'm so excited for you and Liz.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be so easy. Oh, God.
Speaker 1:It's an easy baby, I swear I'm gonna lose my mind.
Speaker 2:I was looking at
Speaker 1:a bright screen.
Speaker 3:Oh my god.
Speaker 1:What are you looking at? The the I'm at
Speaker 2:The the open router page is brighter than the sun, I think.
Speaker 1:Wow. Okay. Now, gotta look. Open. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or is it white?
Speaker 2:Or is it just white? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:On, off. Oh, mine's not nearly as extreme. Yeah. Yours is
Speaker 2:Your setup is a lot nicer. I've always had this problem where my screen just lights up my face like crazy. I wanna figure out my setup. Like it just gotten way too crazy and like I have all this equipment for doing content stuff but none of it is set up exactly right, so I don't get that much benefit.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And then it but it's still like clutter. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I feel this pain because I wanna start doing some streaming. I wanna start doing some videos, a lot of open code content stuff. I hate the word content. I hate when I say the word content.
Speaker 1:I hate when I talk about how I said the word content.
Speaker 3:I'm just
Speaker 2:just You're doing content right now.
Speaker 1:I know. I hate it. I someone said that to me yesterday, like, do have a podcast? And I just forget that we have a podcast. Like, I don't it doesn't feel like we have a podcast, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:It still just feels like Yeah. We record some of our calls and share them with people. Some of them we don't. Been talking a lot more on the phone without recording it. Used to never talk unless we were recording it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Every morning. That's how I start my day. Call with Adam.
Speaker 1:We'll stand up.
Speaker 2:I mean, the thing I was telling you, I want to figure out how Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just browsing the internet. Don't worry about me. I was like, you just did a weird
Speaker 2:hand motion. I was like, I thought you were talking about a I hand for a don't know. You kind of did.
Speaker 3:Oh, jeez.
Speaker 1:I think I did. I think my hand moved and I don't know why. I don't
Speaker 2:know what all the up by your face. Like, it wasn't
Speaker 3:I know. In spite of your head. I'm
Speaker 1:having this, like, memory of my hand going up and I gotta watch the tape now because I don't know why I did it and that's so weird. Maybe I'm having a stroke. Sorry.
Speaker 2:It was a it was a pretty feminine gesture too, if I'm
Speaker 1:Was it? Okay. So weird. I can't I can't remember why I moved my hair. I'm kinda stressed.
Speaker 1:Okay. Continue.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I want to make it so when we when we put out a new feature, I can just easily jump in and do like a two minute video on it. And I've done this a bunch in the past and they typically they work really well. Like people people like them and I like Mhmm. I think that you get like more out of it than just a silent video.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And it's not that much work right now, like I, you know, just have to record but I want them to be a little more polished than what they currently look like. So I'm trying to figure out how to like have a workflow around that. So my root issue is I'm kind of limited in how good I can make my current space look because my room is is pretty small. So I don't like I think maybe I'm like maxed out unless I literally find a place like in that downtown area.
Speaker 2:Well, I did look. There's actually places like, you know, the downtown area where I
Speaker 1:live. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:There's like a recording place just like we had the we found the music recording studio in my neighborhood. There's also like a video recording podcast type thing. Mhmm. But like, you know, I have to like go to that and like record. So I don't
Speaker 1:if I that's like feel like that sounds like the opposite of removing friction from recording content. It's like driving somewhere. I mean,
Speaker 2:it removes stuff. It removes stuff from my office, which which is a secondary thing.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I feel that pain. Yeah. I so okay. I have all these same pain points because I moved my office from my very nice looking room to the dungeon that is our like unfinished space.
Speaker 1:So I have this very dark room. I thought they'd like have advantages. But now it's like I don't yeah. I don't enjoy the background, but it's the only place where I feel okay having all this stuff. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:The camera, the lights, the mics, all of it. Like I I do wanna just like be in a nicer space but it's really hard to do that with this junk just out exposed. Yeah. Like I would just move into a big open area out here that would look really nice with lots of natural light and it'd be great. But then KC would hate me forever because
Speaker 2:All your stuff
Speaker 1:is out there. Stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So obviously, the streaming thing you can go crazy, but in terms of just making like a quick two minute video
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:What's the absolute minimum you need? You need obviously, you need a camera and like one of those What if things?
Speaker 1:Do you need a camera? Do we have to put our faces on the camera? Can we just go fireship and just like make explainer videos that have funny motion graphics and whatever and like create a style that doesn't require all this shit because I hate it.
Speaker 2:That's very interesting.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And like, we would just find someone that can kind of develop that style for us and we just throw them the raw footage and they and they do it. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We just share a screen because that would eliminate a whole lot of problems.
Speaker 2:That is interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, lose the we lose the competitive advantage of our attractiveness, but we we gain a whole lot of simplicity and our offices will look nice again. This is interesting. I don't know with streaming how I feel about this. I feel like streaming
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. You're streaming probably doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Need to Yeah. Oh, so this is gonna work for you and not for me. I came up with the idea.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah. But I think there is the fireship thing is is really cool, but he might be like a one of one situation. I think it's pretty hard to do that. So
Speaker 1:It's not so much like his it's just like the precedent has been set that you don't have to have your face in your videos for them to be good.
Speaker 2:No. No. Yeah. I agree. I just wonder if there's enough yeah.
Speaker 2:We have to like find a very distinct style that feels better than having our faces in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I had this thought with all the new like so v o three, which is Google's video generation model. With all these new like AI generation for video things, I wonder could you make like good supplemental b roll stuff? Not like Yeah. B roll yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, like, yeah, like making like graphics without having to learn how to use like after effects. Because people who are really good at that stuff can make really good looking stuff, but can you just like do it in VIO now?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I've never seen anyone post stuff like that. Everyone always posts like photorealistic stuff Right. Or Yeah. The what is why does that stuff always look so glossy?
Speaker 2:Like, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like all the there's something like shiny about it that feels off.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I feel like they'll figure it out maybe. Some of the latest stuff that I've seen like vo three does look better,
Speaker 2:I think. It it definitely is way better than anything I've seen. But
Speaker 1:But there's still like a little like uncanny valley element to it that's
Speaker 2:And I think this problem predates AI stuff because I feel like at some point most CGI started getting this like glossy clean look to it that made it look really fake. Maybe it's just because older stuff wasn't CGI, it was like more practical but yeah, I don't know. There's like it just feels too clean. There's something like
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Smooth and
Speaker 2:clean and glossy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That just reminded me of something else I wanted to share. This is this is a complete tangent. I guess I don't need to like preface that at this point, but we I was just telling someone the other day about we watched some of my boys are, like, obsessed with Minecraft, I think I've told you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And they when the Minecraft movie came out, we wanted to watch it as soon as possible. And in order to do that, I guess, sometimes you have to resort to these versions of the film that are not finished. So they're like the editors use them, you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:I see. Watched like some crappy X Men movie like that and it was hilarious.
Speaker 1:It's hilarious. I didn't know these existed. But we watched this version of the movie and it's like still green screens everywhere. It's like the characters, like all the anime characters mouths don't move and they're like really deformed and weird. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We watched the whole thing. It's like an hour and whatever, hour and forty minutes and my boys loved it. They didn't care a bit. And I'm like, why do they even spend the time and
Speaker 3:money finishing the movies?
Speaker 1:Like, for
Speaker 2:kids movies, just
Speaker 1:like Funny. Ship anything and they don't care. I mean, maybe it's because it's Minecraft and they're so obsessed with that.
Speaker 2:But like Yeah. Remember I watched this movie that I watched, there was like some I distinctly remember there were some like it was some X Men movie and there was like a classic I think Cyclops, the the guy who can shoot lasers from his eyes he can't control it. There's a scene where he can't control it and the laser blasts through the ceiling and you see an overhead shot of the building and the lasers coming out of the building. But in this print, was just a giant three d rectangle that was red. It was just like just like a placeholder for it.
Speaker 2:Looks so bad. What's funny, I I don't know if this is same for years though, because it wasn't like the whole movie was equally unfinished. It was
Speaker 1:like No, right. Random There parts of it that yeah.
Speaker 2:It would just come completely different.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It'll go from like a semi normal scene, I guess ones where they didn't have as many as much work to do and then cut to like, they're all just standing on stage with a green screen, But does that make
Speaker 2:you appreciate actors more? It does. Actors hard job.
Speaker 1:Actors and also the people who do all the post production, because to take the the shit show that it is, like the state that it's in, and turn that into like good looking footage. Because we later watched the real movie Yeah. Like when that when that came out, like recently. It's incredible. Like, none of the bad stuff.
Speaker 1:All the it's like all fixed. But you watch Yeah. There'll be footage where they're you don't see the green screen, but you just see the like all the green halo around them. Like, all their hair is green from like the lighting from the green screen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But they've kind of replaced the green screen. It's like all every frame they have to like fix that stuff. Yeah. It's kind of incredible to think that a movie gets made ever. It just seems like there's so much mountain of work.
Speaker 2:Movies seem so I like do not understand how so many get made. There's there's so many people involved. Like think about how hard is to like a team of five. Dancing at five to all I work probably, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There there's like hundreds of people working Oh, yeah, the credits. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When you watch the credits Yeah.
Speaker 2:So much money involved, a compressed time schedule. The thing I also think about is oftentimes you'll see like when a director first gets their big break, it's usually that they've made something small that was good, then they get picked up by like Hollywood studio to make something that has like a $200,000,000 budget. Of course, they have people around them supporting them, but I'm like, I've always been like, that's such a crazy jump. Like, imagine you're just making these like
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:$10,000, a $100,000 movies and all of a sudden you're like, oh, yeah, here's $200,000,000, you're in charge and there's like hundreds, thousands of people working on it. It's yeah. Don't know how anyone makes that jump.
Speaker 1:This is actually something I can't believe we've never talked about. I don't think we've ever talked about this on the podcast, which kind of blows my mind. Why have we not like taken movie studios, the model, whatever they figured out because you're you're mentioning like compressed schedule, sometimes they turn these movies around in what, like two years or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have we not taken some lessons from that and applied it to like startups or companies?
Speaker 2:Because there's a finish date on the project.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that's why it
Speaker 2:I doesn't think that's fundamentally why it's different. There's a day when the thing is complete.
Speaker 1:You cannot do anything else to it.
Speaker 2:And you it is Like, there's no mystery on like, do we need do it? Do we need to go into this? When you go into that? It's just like, there's a project that needs to be done. So movie studios, game studios, etcetera.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Hear hear me out. If a movie ends up we create this like amazing artifact and all these people come together to push it to this crazy awesome state in a short compressed time frame And the only constraint is you have to pick a date when it's done. Can we not do that with software and then just be done with it? Yeah. It's not just
Speaker 2:like I
Speaker 1:think Okay.
Speaker 2:I think the only software that is sold that way where it's like, there's a day where everyone buys it and it's like basically done. And it's funny because even video games are are like totally transformed now, right? Like, a lot other studios have like infinite updates, expansions, like the whole live service thing. It's it's built like a SaaS product.
Speaker 1:And that that follows the trend of like, yeah, they they suck now. It's the unshitification you've talked about. Like, now video games, people complain about how buggy they are when they first ship and like, that's all because we got rid of the movie studio model. Let's just bring it back. Is the problem that like the real world is too messy for software to have an end date?
Speaker 1:That's I the
Speaker 2:think there's just it's kinda like accepting the reality of the world which is with software, it's somewhat fungible compared to a movie. Like, one movie versus another movie is not replaceable. Like, can't be like, oh, can replace this movie with another movie because they're totally different experiences. But
Speaker 1:Okay. I'm still I'm I'm I'm sorry. I gotta stop you. I still am trying to just think of what fungible means. I was trying to pick up context clues from the words.
Speaker 1:I've heard the word. I'm afraid to ask now at this point. But like, what is fungible?
Speaker 2:It means like that you can replace one instance of it with another. Like in a group in a group of things, all the things are effectively equivalent.
Speaker 1:So I
Speaker 2:have this group of almonds on my desk, one almond eating one versus the other, they're effectively the same.
Speaker 1:Do you just snack on almonds? It's like raw.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's wrong with that? You don't like almonds?
Speaker 1:I'm not a big fan.
Speaker 2:Kinda Do nuts in general?
Speaker 1:I do love nuts.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just I not bet you're gonna say macadamia.
Speaker 1:Oh, macadamia.
Speaker 3:Now we're talking.
Speaker 1:I can do it. I have I have macadamia. I
Speaker 2:have macadamia too. But of course, it's the most expensive nut that you like.
Speaker 1:Literally That's so funny.
Speaker 2:Oh, think It's like they're all like going in Hawaii or whatever.
Speaker 1:I have expensive taste. Okay. So back to the fungible. So you're saying software is not fungible or is fungible?
Speaker 2:It's more fun it's more fungible than a movie. So, like, someone else can come in and make similar software that does the same thing in the same space. Oh,
Speaker 1:okay. Competitors. I'm only learning what those are recently because we work on OpenCode, and there are 1,000,002 competitors to OpenCode. Oh my
Speaker 2:That's new for me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, yo, yeah. You've worked on SSC. Like, my most of my career has been working on stat muse and like, there's nothing like stat muse. I mean, there's a couple of comparisons, but like, largely built for five years on stat muse without ever thinking about like our competitors.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And I have it's been like a month of work on open code and it's like, there's new ones literally every week. And what what in the world? There's too many AI coding agents.
Speaker 2:I can't say that. I feel I haven't felt inexperienced in a while, especially in the startup stuff. But this now is something that I feel a lot of inexperienced with where like my I don't have like the experience of psychology having like so much intense competition that shows up every single day.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I need to like develop my own sense of how I like operate with that day to day. Yeah. It's definitely new for me.
Speaker 1:It's new. There's a lot of things about it I don't like, if I'm being honest. Yeah. There's probably parts of it that are nice. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's a different kind of like to be able to look at what other people are doing and it can kind of either motivate you or give you ideas. That's interesting. You're not just like making everything up as you go. But it also is really annoying. That part of it's annoying because it just feels like everybody feels like we have to copy each other.
Speaker 1:Whenever somebody does something, you have to do it too. And it's like somebody's gonna come into your Discord and be like, why don't you support x y z? It's like, well, I guess we should support that and then you have to add it. I don't know. It's just like there's a lot of annoying parts to it with this whole competition thing.
Speaker 1:I don't think I like it. But I feel like you're you're a big capitalist person, pro capitalism. You're gonna be like, competition is very important for the health of the economy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's good for everyone else. But
Speaker 1:But not the people in the thick of it
Speaker 2:competing. Yeah. So it's like, I think the way I'm approaching it is like kinda trying to take a step back and thinking about what I personally am really good at and like the decisions we've made and how if you replay that every single day over the next year, they'll probably add up to a good good spot. Every day is not gonna feel like we're winning. That's I think that's like the thing that's new for me.
Speaker 2:Because when you're in a space that's not as competitive, if you're Well, I guess you had no competition but there was other things.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But we're always like the best option of the options. So there wasn't a day where someone else had like a spotlight on them or anything, which is kind of different with this.
Speaker 1:That picks at one of my insecurities or not insecurities, but one of the things I don't think I'm good at, which is knowing what I'm good at. So maybe that's why I hate the competition thing because I what you said makes sense. That sounds refreshing to be like, listen, I know what I'm good at and I'm just gonna keep doing that and things will be great. I don't feel like I know what I'm good at often and I question it all the time and I try and figure out like, wow. Why have I had any success in my career because I don't think I'm good at any of this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I I think yeah. I guess for me it's a little more tangible because ultimately this is we're building a tool for developers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. I've
Speaker 2:been doing So that for a very long time and there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that I picked up and like as a team we've picked up. But that is not something you can kind of drop in overnight. And the the tough part is that doesn't manifest as like, oh, we built this one feature that nobody else did Right. Is like a very experienced. It's more around like positioning and little details and like knowing what we should focus on, what we shouldn't focus on.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Like what kinds of paints you into a corner. But yeah, like none of those things are acute. They're things that like show up after like years of working on something, you see the results of that kind of experience.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I think that that's kind of like the the struggle. It's all of our advantages are more small things every day that add up to a big thing.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. It is interesting how like when you're building in the dev tool space, so you've got a lot of experience with this. When you're building a dev tool, all your competitors have a lot of the same advantages as you like. You can't You don't have some advantages where you're a developer building a product for yourself.
Speaker 1:Everyone's building a product for themselves. We're all developers like
Speaker 2:That's actually the point That's actually the counterintuitive thing though. Like that it helps that we're building products for ourselves, that's good. But this market is so so so massive that Mhmm. There's just so many different situations that exist that you can't even fathom of.
Speaker 1:Long tail is like, and it's
Speaker 2:like, you would imagine that oh, most people are like me and there's like a few people not like me. It's actually most people aren't like you. Mhmm. Especially the people operating in this space. So and I've just learned that over the over the years.
Speaker 2:Like we see people I mean, the funniest thing with SST that always happened was we've like worked so hard on like making certain things work really well and certain features and gets like a really high level of developer experience. Then we'll talk to like some enterprise company using our stuff and like 80% of the features don't work in their environment. But they're really happy. They're really happy and they're like, this is great. It's just like from their point of view, the stuff that were like, this is so important, like, their expectations are so low for one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And then for two, like we just assumed some of this stuff would just work everywhere but it doesn't because there's all these like weird setups and restrictions and all that stuff. So that is something you cannot buy or learn overnight. Is like learned after years of messing up over and over.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that that that's one thing. And the second thing is this like b to c focus. I think most developers do not have the b to c bend to them. You worked on Okay,
Speaker 1:that I believe.
Speaker 2:B to I have only had one experience prior to SST that was more b to c oriented and I wouldn't even say like I learned the right things from that. Jay and Frank, extremely b to c oriented. I learned a ton working with them. And it's all very simple stuff but it's kind of a different mindset. I think developers are it's very counterintuitive to the way most developers think and you can see that why you can see that most big consumer apps aren't really founded by like really strong engineering founders
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:For the most part. And I think DevTools is is that and people don't really realize it because it seems very technical and engineering.
Speaker 1:Just this conversation, it's a little while we're on like third branch of the original conversation. Don't know if we're ever gonna resolve what we're talking about, but it made me think of like three more things I wanna talk about related to the open code stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Go.
Speaker 1:I may assume we talk a lot about open code. One, before I forget, just things that seem really overrated. We've been now working on OpenCode for a while and there's so many competitors and everyone like I said, we're we're all just copying features from each other and you have to have all the features. And some of them are just so stupid. And I want to just say things that are stupid.
Speaker 1:Yes. Reasoning models, I know you're gonna agree with a lot of these. Like, over overrated maybe. Not stupid, but just like, I don't get it. So reasoning models, I know people say they're so much smarter and look at the benchmarks and whatever, but they're just really slow and I don't care.
Speaker 2:They're so slow.
Speaker 1:And sub agents, also stupid, don't care. Agents. N d, stupid, don't care. Like initializing your project is just stupid. There's just so many of these things I'm I'm just reevaluating.
Speaker 1:Like, should we just cut this stuff out if we actually don't believe in it? But you just feel like when like so many people keep asking for the same stuff. Custom commands, why do you guys use custom commands? You're you're just No. It's not worth the time.
Speaker 3:Like, I
Speaker 1:feel like all this stuff people are really trying to like just like tinker too much. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think Yeah. It's it's one of these things where it's like, you can get to a really good experience without any of those things. Yeah. I believe that.
Speaker 2:And I think you can actually continue to use it even on your first day, on your tenth day, on your hundredth day, still without using any of those things. I don't and I and I'm happy using these tools. But yeah, like there is like this this push of like putting more and more stuff around it. Yeah, I think I know I've said this before, I'm generally okay with that as long as the new user experience is not hindered at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see.
Speaker 2:But yeah, like some of these things
Speaker 1:People do work differently, guess. That's the thing I'm Yeah.
Speaker 2:People do work differently. Like something like custom commands like you can imagine that if there's something that you're constantly doing with LLM, it's kinda nice to just give it a shortcut more or less. It's just a shortcut at the end of the day. Yeah. The sub agents thing, yeah, that one I'm just like, I'm surprised Cloud Code shipped it for one.
Speaker 2:Like, we knew how to do it for weeks and we like knew how we were gonna do it for weeks and I didn't bother shipping it because I had no reason to. Mhmm. Then Cloud Code added in and I was like, okay, I guess I guess I'll I'll turn this on now. It just doesn't work well. Like the the problem for me is the expectation versus reality.
Speaker 2:It's like, agent m d is another good one. I actually would love to use it. I would love to say like, here's how we do CSS. Here's how like
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I don't like using try catch, like throw errors and handle high up. I don't like using else statements return early. There's just stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And in theory, that's great. I think I can spend like five minutes writing that up and it would actually save me a lot of time. But the reality is this is never
Speaker 1:It doesn't get a looks at
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 1:Weighted enough. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And maybe we can tweak something with that but I don't know if you saw people were looking at the Claude the way Claude code sends it up. It was like, here are some extra instructions. Feel free to ignore that.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it just doesn't work. In theory, a sub agents worked really well. Like I I think I have one I tried set one up for docs writing because I was like, here's how we'd like to write docs. Don't write a big chunk of text like with every sentence, break it up with like an example or something else. Would be great.
Speaker 2:But again, even if the sub agent gets triggered, which half the time it doesn't, and then it goes, not really listening to it. So these are kind of like disappointing features at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For me, they've been they're just like not something I care about. I mean, I've tried I've used them at times and then just kind of not seen the point. But I guess to your point, if it's not in people's way and the people who do care about this stuff can just opt into it, then I guess it's just a surface area we have to support. It's whatever.
Speaker 1:It's just so interesting to be working in this space where I do believe that like the model's not even getting better just like the model's this good. I feel like there's still like a huge amount of stuff to improve about this whole agentic coding assistant world. And I like I feel like everyone's working towards that, but it's so unknown. Like, it's just still like what is the best workflow? I feel like there's gotta be like a an eighty twenty like best Yeah.
Speaker 2:There is.
Speaker 1:Way to use these things that we just haven't found it yet and everyone's still just like searching. But it's it's so elusive because like all the evaluations are all over the place and people have their own little homespun way of evaluating and there's some YouTubers that do stuff. But like, there's no concrete evidence that anything you do is actually making anything better. Yeah. It's all just kind of very fuzzy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I had a conversation yesterday which was a little bit enlightening in one of these directions. So the whole so we shipped permissions yesterday and I was talking to someone about how they use these tools. Now when you hear permissions you think, oh, they are like really worried about it breaking something so they wanna like review every single thing. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But the person I was talking to had a different perspective, they actually don't really use it for permissions. They're reluctant to let it run-in the background and come back to it because they feel like they are more likely to not properly evaluate a giant diff, which is which is valid. Like when when I get a giant diff, don't really evaluate it properly. So they use permissions as a way to like see the changes incrementally so they're absorbing it not as giant chunk at once. Interesting.
Speaker 2:That's because we've talked a lot about how open code should be just a good code review tool. Mhmm. So, you know, they were expressing their need as very adamantly, I need permissions because I don't want it to go off the rails. But in theory, if the thing you got at the end was very easily digestible
Speaker 1:Yeah. We can step through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. A lot of like yeah. Yeah. Effectively, like someone that really organizes their commits, you can accept them one at a time, like the equivalent of
Speaker 3:that. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Maybe they would feel feel differently. Yeah. So these are some of like the product y things that I think yeah, I think the bar is pretty low. I don't think people have really like Yeah. Thought about it in this way or talked to people or tried to understand some of these things.
Speaker 1:Agreed. Yeah. I'd like to say we'll figure it out first. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, that that when it comes to competition, that's kind of what it comes down to. It's like there is the current table stakes and there's like the stuff that you're doing above and beyond. But that just shifts down all the time. Like the thing that's above and beyond becomes table stakes, so
Speaker 1:Yeah. As long as you're always
Speaker 2:the one that's first to the above and beyond, you don't have to worry about competition. And that's kind of what I Yeah. Lean back on.
Speaker 1:I I want to get into a place where I'm not thinking about competition at all. I think like I mean, Cloud Code has taken off. It's it's huge. And you feel like you're you're chasing this giant. But also, this is what makes me think it's more about like just avoiding the terrible like fatal flaw or not like not fatal flaw, but like you talk about architecture, stuff like that where like you just get into situations where there's a fundamental reason your thing does not adapt to the new paradigm.
Speaker 1:And I feel like with Cloud Code, that could be just Anthropic models not being the best. Like, as long as they only support Anthropic models, then they kind of fall out of the running for maybe months on end while they're playing catch up if some other model leapfrogs them. I mean, there's lot of talk of GPT five coming. Could it be better? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Could Gemini three be better? Like, some models gonna come out and be better at agentic coding than the Claude models and that means if you're using Claude code, you're just opting into something less than, which is tough. So I I just view it almost like just like minefield where you're just trying to avoid the fatal flaw to keep you in it longer. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's why it's all that's the thing. It's like I said earlier, it's so much about this is just positioning and picking the right spot on the board. Mhmm. Which is why like when I think about competition, Claude Code actually draws no emotion for me at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, same. I actually because I like them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. Like it's just Like
Speaker 1:the product, like the team, like the people on the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like it's only feel like good things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Same.
Speaker 2:So I don't really feel that cause they're not on the they're not in the similar spot on the board as us, even though the product is very similar. If I really think about it, if I can step back and have clarity, I think there's really only one other company that's in a similar spot. Oh. That's Klein with their fundraising announcement yesterday and how much they talked about their positioning. They're probably the only other company that I would or product I would say that really gets that spot that we're trying to occupy and like how we're positioning stuff around it.
Speaker 2:But when it comes to them, I also don't feel that negative about them either.
Speaker 1:I don't either.
Speaker 2:Because like their product looks in their case, their product looks very different, at least for now. Yeah. So for them, it's just like a straight execution battle, like who can execute better.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that's and that's something that I don't feel worried about either because I I have confidence in myself. Like I think that's really all that there's a lot of noise, a lot of things happening in this space but I think that's really only that's like it. That's the only thing to like really think about and take away.
Speaker 3:Rest of
Speaker 2:it is kind of ignorable noise. Because they're either on totally different spots on the board, spots that we think are not good to be on. And so like it doesn't it doesn't really matter what they do or what they're doing, it's just the positioning is off.
Speaker 1:I want to dig more I kind of want to dig more into it, but I don't know, like just why Klein and not the three other forks of Klein or whatever. You just mean because they just raised and they're going like very enterprise, I don't know, like
Speaker 2:I think their focus on open source is really good. It's not just the like thing is everyone says, oh, open source is great. Everyone says that. It's obviously not controversial. I think they specifically understand why it's good.
Speaker 2:It's not just like a general statement and they're actually very much positioned around that. The way they want to charge the way they want to make money, I think makes total sense.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Exact the way that we're thinking about it. And they launched like a preview of their product, their paid product yesterday.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I think position yeah, it's like very exactly how we're thinking about it Very as similar. Yeah. Like not charge for usage, pure seat based model, only charge enterprise companies for like the typical like team using using this project as a team problems. I think so that's that's all there. So I'm like, okay, we're like basically the same positioning wise.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The thing that I think is very different is they've been around for a lot longer than us. And if you look at their scope, it's still pretty narrow.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:One thing our team is really, really, really good at It's funny because we feel like we're bad at this because I think everyone's bad at this. But I would say we're very good compared to the average team is we like do not restrict our scope ever. It's painful because it means that each thing that we do isn't as polished as we could possibly make it. Mhmm. Which is why most people are bad at this because you want it to really polish, you want to focus on something and really polish it.
Speaker 2:But we are really good at like expanding scope to cover way more than most people would be comfortable taking on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's interesting too like seeing clients fundraise and seeing a picture of them in their office or whatever and there's like
Speaker 2:A huge team.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's a big team with a narrow scope. This open code is a small
Speaker 2:team with a wide scope.
Speaker 1:Seems bad, Dax.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:Making me
Speaker 3:feel better about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it but this is what I mean, like it just comes down to Yeah. Comes down to execution.
Speaker 1:Execution.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So and and we have resources to like, you know, put behind the the wider scope now but, yeah, it's it's counterintuitive. And I would say in a lot of ways like, if you're not doing something counterintuitive then you're
Speaker 3:probably not
Speaker 2:going to win. So this is like our our our And our that's bet. Yeah. Everyone else will kind look at this and be like, oh, that scope creep or like, it's narrow or like you need to go narrower but we'll make it work. The wider scope always has a better benefit.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Kinda like it just always does.
Speaker 1:We've been getting a lot of open router tokens. We we had our first billion token day and then well, I say a lot, like, we're we're still early. I had our first billion token day and it was like
Speaker 2:And we got 2,000,000,000 the next day.
Speaker 1:The next day is 2,000,000,000. Yeah. We're just Yeah. It's jumping. I like it.
Speaker 1:Except I don't know if I like open rider. So I know you're looking at it right now because your face is
Speaker 2:blown out. Boy, it's funny how blind we've been flying because OpenRider has been like our only
Speaker 1:Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Source of data, so we're like latching onto it.
Speaker 1:It's like the only chart we can look at. So it's kind of cool. And I it's a chart.
Speaker 2:Look. But I finally got a daily active user chart up yesterday. Which is nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm excited about that. Wait, is it actual chart? Because I like charts, not just numbers. Can I look at a It's
Speaker 2:a chart?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like where?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Are you in their Clefler account? Probably not. Oh, probably not. I'll give you access after.
Speaker 2:I like found Oh, yeah. Deep inside Cloudflare. Literally spent like two hours yesterday clicking every single screen in Cloudflare. Literally, the CTO of Cloudflare was responding to me, helping me find the right screen. That's how
Speaker 1:Oh, it's funny.
Speaker 2:Funny what situation this was. But I found a place to compute unique unique users. So I I just enabled I have to enable something, so I just enabled it at midnight last night and we're already at 2.4 k for the day, which is higher than I would expect. Oh, that's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there's thousands of people using us every day. Good to know. Yeah. We have no This is the first time learning that.
Speaker 1:Like, we had no way of knowing, which is unfortunate. Like when you build a website, it's like
Speaker 2:Everything's just there. You
Speaker 1:just know. Like, you always know. I've been working on a website for a decade, and I just always know how many people use it.
Speaker 2:But Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not so in dev tooling. People don't want you sending off random requests.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sorry. It's annoying. That's why the Cloudflare Analytics, like, it didn't work right away because it's oriented around websites. And I like they're like, what do you mean you want the number of unique visitors to api/json?
Speaker 2:Api.json? Like, we don't Oh, funny. We have zero. It literally has zero visits.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But what yeah, it's fun to see some of this information because you can kinda I gotta I gotta throw the version of OpenCode in the user agent header, but they don't be able to see like the distribution of people updating and stuff, but
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be nice. What else besides OpenCode or other things about OpenCode?
Speaker 2:Let's see. What else has gone on in my life? I almost died on my run today.
Speaker 1:Oh, you almost died.
Speaker 2:I'm a baby. Yeah. So I so we my Friday runs we go to this beach park area and the last two times I took Zuko with me, so he goes on my run. And today we were like a little late, later than we normally go and I took a path that's like not directly on the beach. And on the way back, we got caught in this like one mile of zero shade path.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it was so crazy hot. Like it was super hot. Zuko was like barely moving, like he was walking so slow. Oh, I was like, weird. This is like, I am like dying.
Speaker 1:You're gonna die.
Speaker 2:I literally ran we like made it to backstop parking lot and I had Liz like drive all the way to the other side so she could pick us up. And yeah, was funny like like we were walking and there'd like a little bit of shade and Zuko was like realizing it and he would just stop moving. He would stay there and like not wanna
Speaker 1:Just chill.
Speaker 2:Not wanna move. Yeah. And I'm like, it's funny because at the beginning of the run, was like way too hyper and like going way too hard. I'm like, you're gonna regret this so hard. Because like dog you can't tell a dog like, hey, this is actually like a 10 mile hike.
Speaker 2:They're gonna go into
Speaker 1:it like They're just gonna
Speaker 2:go. Out right away. They're gonna be like, wait, this is going on forever. But he's gonna wanna pace himself. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna go deep and deeper on this. The implication of what I just said is also really crazy because they like live so crazy in the moment. Because they can't even think like, oh, this walk is gonna last this amount of time and then we'll be done with it. They're just like
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:In the moment running and they're like, I'm running and I'm hap I'm outside and I'm happy. They can't even like, there's no concept of eventually this will be over or else it'll be over in in thirty minutes. And I'm like, what is it like to live like that? Because we obviously are nowhere close to anything like that kind of Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I can go a whole day and not live in this current moment for like ten seconds.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Casey and I talked about this with kids because they say like kids
Speaker 2:Oh, true.
Speaker 1:I I think it's the is it the default mode that adults are in? Your brain is in default mode or whatever where you're both you're you're not really in the present moment? You're like
Speaker 2:At least past.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But kids don't have it until a certain age and so they say like kids you also can deactivate it with mushrooms, like magic mushrooms. And they so so Casey and I, the the like kids are basically just always running around on mushrooms. And that's what Casey and I say. Like when they're doing something, taking a flower and just like staring at it or like Yeah.
Speaker 1:Chasing a bird around, like we just always say like mushrooms, man. What's it like? Man, living on mushrooms all
Speaker 2:way you describe that, like taking a foul and looking at it, I I wonder how much of this is like a purely biological thing and more like a lifestyle thing. Because I know people I've come across people that are like this as adults because they have a certain certain way of living.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:There's this woman that lives she's so weird because she kind of looks she's always like dressed in like barely any clothing. So it's like not in like I'm not like saying like, oh, she's like being sexual. I'm saying she's like always in she looks sunburned all the time. She's like, she's outside all the time and she's always just got like the minimum clothing you need so she can absorb as much sun. And she's white, so she's like just like red and sunburned all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I always see her around. She's always like, just looking at her, you just feel like she's in the moment all the time. The funny thing is she's got and she almost seems homeless, like that's kind of the vibe. But then she's got this like really perfect Australian Shepherd that's always with her, never on a leash Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And the dog is like her and the dog are both like the same exact energy as living totally in the moment. And is always walking around like what are they clearly this person like doesn't have to work, doesn't have like is in some kind of lifestyle where like, you know, things are pretty relaxed. Yeah. So I feel like they like, yeah, she probably lives Figured it out. Like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I wanna figure that out. That sounds so nice.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I mean, think the dog thing don't dogs very much take on the personality of their owners, right? Like or just like take on the mood and everything like they feed off of their owners. I've known other dogs where they were very amped up because their owner was very amped up.
Speaker 2:That that's definitely thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely a thing. At the same time though like we always Me and Liz always talk about this because they're like so Dobermans are extremely generally really extremely focused on individual people because they're like personal protection dogs.
Speaker 2:So there's Mhmm. Before getting a Doberman, hear all this stuff about like, oh, they're so in tune with your emotions or like, they like marry you, whatever. And Zuko just never does that at all. Like, Liz is like, there's been times where I've been crying and he just like, just is annoyed that I'm not like playing ball with him. Like he just doesn't he like doesn't he just doesn't take take on the owners stuff at all.
Speaker 2:He's kind of in his in his own world. Butting other dogs, yeah. They do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I This whole in the moment thing is it's a constant pain point for me. I feel like I don't ever just like appreciate a given moment or just like it makes the days go by so fast and years, I guess. Just when you're always kind of buzzing toward the next thing.
Speaker 2:So do do you know what Jay does every morning?
Speaker 1:Meditates, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. But he's been doing this since he was a kid because his dad was into it. So he's gone through a really crazy level of meditation practice and he always shares like There's like different levels and your brain starts doing weirder things when you unlock these different levels. So he's always talking
Speaker 1:about Well, it's basically like hallucinogen effects. Yeah. Right? Exactly.
Speaker 2:Same thing we're saying about
Speaker 1:mushrooms. Mushrooms.
Speaker 2:He was telling Liz that this is the craziest thing I've ever heard because no one on the planet feels this way. He's reached a point where he looks at his life and he's like, man, this is gonna take forever. My life is so long, like what am I gonna do with all of this time?
Speaker 1:I have never heard anyone Yes. Express that
Speaker 2:Isn't that crazy? Like that's what that's what that does? Yeah, because none of us feel that way. No. Where is the time going?
Speaker 2:Like, I have such a little time left. But he feels the opposite.
Speaker 1:That sounds that sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:Maybe this needs to be a team thing. Maybe you all need to
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. Wanna I wanna get in on some meditating. Can I? Yeah.
Speaker 2:The other funny thing he's mentioned is For an hour?
Speaker 1:Does he do an hour every day?
Speaker 2:I think it's an hour. I I don't know the exact thing, but
Speaker 1:Oh my god. Is there like a light version of this where I can do it in like 10:10 minutes maybe? You build up it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The other funny thing is, and this is a very common thing, that when you meditate, there's like weird physical body effects and one is you feel like your hands are really large. You feel like you have giant giant hands.
Speaker 1:Dax. I'm not kidding you.
Speaker 2:Is that what happens when you have two mushrooms?
Speaker 1:I cannot confirm or deny, but I'm gonna send you a tweet. Let me see if I deleted. I might have deleted it then. I don't know. Oh, did I delete it?
Speaker 1:Maybe I shouldn't. I don't know. I feel like been talking a lot about things on this podcast that maybe I shouldn't. Is it like rappers how they can be like, I shot a man and like you can't get on to him because it's like a song? This is like a podcast.
Speaker 2:So This is entertainment. Yeah.
Speaker 1:When I talk about work print movies and and
Speaker 2:print drugs.
Speaker 1:Like, listen, this is art. Okay? It's art. Get off me. Get off my case.
Speaker 1:Anyway, there I at one point, tweeted a picture of my hand because I was so crazily impressed
Speaker 3:at how large my hand was. I just tweeted it.
Speaker 1:I can't find it. I might have deleted it. But can confirm, in elevated states, your hands look huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what they say, that meditation, you can it's all the same effects as hallucinogens, just do Interesting. It Yeah.
Speaker 2:Man, but to be honest, the hallucinogen thing has been I feel like this feeling of not able to live in the moment has even messed that up. Because from like now, well, like what I haven't done them in a while but the reason is because the last couple of times I like hyper fixate on all the things that I'm thinking about or worried about or like Yeah. Need to be trying to solve. And like the actual experience of the trip is very negative. I've I will say the next day it feels incredible because I feel like I literally cannot think about these things anymore and like my brain just can't even go there.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So it helps in that way, but the actual experience itself like I don't want to do it anymore for that reason. There's like too many things that I'm like worried about.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is interesting. I mean, I've had some experiences in adulthood. It's interesting that those like, they were great experiences for me. Never had any negative experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's not a thing I ever think like, man, I wanna do that again. It's not there's like no habit forming nature to it. It's just kind of like
Speaker 2:No. It's because it's it's not like a pleasureful feeling. Like Yeah. Even just even when you're having a good trip, you're like you're like kinda uneasy and like it feels a little off and weird. So like, yeah, it's just not something you wanna dive into every Yeah.
Speaker 2:Single
Speaker 1:But I do keep seeing like psilocybin in our news articles and stuff. There's a lot of people pushing like for PTSD and other things like clinical purposes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not really good. Yeah. It's not really good. The the the ketamine also, obviously, in medically controlled doses, not Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Elon Musk doses.
Speaker 1:That's funny. You know what I'm thankful for living in this current moment? I'm thankful that I haven't heard nearly as much about Elon Musk or Trump or Doge That's or
Speaker 2:really good point.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? I feel like it's been like weeks of really not knowing what they're doing or caring, not being inundated with updates about I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, I have no perspective on this because you know, I told you I played unplugged from everything. Oh, right. Right. Right. And the that did make it to me was the tariffs officially going back into place, but
Speaker 3:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:I haven't heard too much about that.
Speaker 1:Well, sounds because
Speaker 2:the deadline was the thirty first.
Speaker 1:That sounds bad. Is it gonna ruin our economy?
Speaker 2:We'll see.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:What what is our economy even doing right now?
Speaker 1:What is our economy? I something do you ever just think about like the broader like machinery of the world and like, how does it all work? Like
Speaker 2:It's When people talk about
Speaker 1:printing money and they talk about all these things and mechanisms and like countries lending each other money. It's just all just blows my mind. I can't even comprehend.
Speaker 2:The the thing that to bring it down to like a micro level, sometimes when I travel like, you know, where you'll I'll drive through some rural plays with a small town. People in the small town will have these like big pickup trucks that are maybe worth like a $100,000. And I'm like, yeah, this pickup truck required a $100,000 worth of parts and materials and labor and all that stuff. Mhmm. Like how and if you think about the little town as like like its own country, it can produce stuff and trade.
Speaker 2:How are how are these small towns able to produce that much stuff to trade externally to buy this very expensive vehicle? Like what are they? Woah. Like, imagine everyone in town can service each other. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Like, someone grows food and someone whatever. But they need to produce extra stuff on top of that to sell to the outside world. I was like, how does this work?
Speaker 1:Okay. So I feel like I know the answer to this and it's surprising that this isn't obvious, I guess, to you, but maybe it's my unique
Speaker 2:Is it government?
Speaker 1:No. Maybe this is it's my unique life experiences. I've lived in those small towns of like a thousand people my whole life. And I've made my money on the internet where it's not just
Speaker 2:Well, yes. The internet thing makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So like, it's just they they make their money elsewhere and they live in the small town.
Speaker 2:But that that doesn't explain every single person. Like, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Not not every single person, no.
Speaker 2:I mean, even in your town, right? I'm sure the wealthiest people probably do that. But like, let's say the middle class Mhmm. The more middle of middle area area, Are they also making their money elsewhere remotely on the Internet?
Speaker 1:I guess probably not. I don't know. And what
Speaker 2:were they doing ten years ago? I do. That definitely wasn't
Speaker 1:a I do often have the thought like, how do so many people have money? And like not like crazy money, not like generational wealth, but just like I don't know. It's like there's a lot of nice things in America. Even in Yeah. The like Podunk area that I live.
Speaker 1:It's like there's a lot of wealth just floating around.
Speaker 2:What whenever we drive to the typical place that we drive like to the beach that we go to or to our grocery store, there's like a scenic route that we take usually. And it's like a fifteen minute drive, let's say, the Whole Foods. And the whole drive, you are driving by like the nicest houses you can possibly imagine. Mhmm. Like, short of a $100,000,000 mansion, these are like in the like $10,000,000 Yeah.
Speaker 2:Range. Mhmm. $5.10, $20,000,000 range. And it's not like a couple houses on a road, it is all the houses on this road and then all the roads that fork off off of them all down that road. It's a massive massive area.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I'm looking at all these, I'm like, what the heck? This is like thousands of people
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that are living at this level of quality of life.
Speaker 1:We drive through neighborhoods like that. Like, we go to Kansas City and this is not like a major wealth center in America. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:This is like, I don't know, Midwest, modest. And you'll drive through a neighborhood like that and you just see and you just I I I just wondered I I need to understand what is the default? Like, is there like a 80% case here where it's like doctors or like lawyers?
Speaker 2:I think it's like doctors, lawyers, real estate.
Speaker 1:Is that it?
Speaker 2:You get into that field and like Yeah. It's I think the all those all of those careers are just a function of how many people are around you. If you get into real estate Mhmm. And there's like you live in a place with thousands of people, like, know, that that's like a lot of money for you to tap into. Same the lawyer, same with the doctor, because these are just things that everybody uses.
Speaker 2:So like, every Yeah.
Speaker 1:Customer. That would explain why every every city in America has these neighborhoods where there are dozens and dozens of
Speaker 2:houses that are It must just be that. I I will say it's funny like Miami's always funny with this stuff. One of the houses on the corner we know that this family makes these crackers. These like crackers that are like Cuban people love.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're like really popular I think and they have like a mansion because they make these crackers.
Speaker 1:That was my next question is like where do small business owners rank in the
Speaker 2:Yeah. Think construction is another one. I mean, are all small business owners, right? If you're a lawyer, real you're probably on your own
Speaker 1:Oh, guess so, yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're doing construction, you're a contractor, if you're like a plumber, like, you know, kind of those Mhmm. Like work your way up to it's not just solo, you're you have a good team and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you're saying you're saying a plumber is is amongst these levels of standard of living.
Speaker 2:The the the reason I bring that up is when I was growing up, the first dog we got, we got this breeder and we went to the breeder's house to get the dog. Massive, crazy house. We learned that breeding is just like a side thing that he does and he's got like staff and all this stuff. Mhmm. He's just a he's a he's a plumber.
Speaker 2:But like, obviously, you know, probably doing like commercial stuff, like, you know, he probably has like a team and and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's I think it's all these jobs that are just like every person will eventually hire you
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:At some point in their life. Mhmm. But they're the standard, like, foolproof jobs that kinda kinda always exist. I think that's that's who lives there, is my guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then I guess it's like a function of time too. I I was just thinking yesterday in the shower actually about like, man, I feel like I've been like working for an eternity. It feels like my career has never like it's just was the beginning of time and I feel that like worn down and old and like just toiling away. And then I realized like, oh man, I turned 40 next year.
Speaker 1:And then I was like, wait a minute, when do people retire? Like sixty? I have twenty more years?
Speaker 3:Like, what are you talking about? Like, twenty more years of working? No. I can't do
Speaker 1:this for twenty more years.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of years.
Speaker 1:I just I burn too hot. Like, I go too intense. You've got that like zen quality where you're just like you got that low blood pressure, low heart rate, you're just going. I feel like you could go forever. And I feel like I am like a just a I don't know, blowtorch and it's gonna run out of fuel and it's gonna go out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's probably what you have to you have to figure out. I do. It's describe funny that about me, but it's all relative.
Speaker 2:Like, I think Jay and Frank are even more like that than than me. I feel like relative to them, I feel more like you. I can relate to that. Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm like, it it's yeah, it flicks on and off. This past week has been very much like that. The the previous couple weeks I've been in a really good place, like just low and steady, like consistent every day. So yeah. And Jay is like just flat Yeah.
Speaker 2:All the time.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:No one I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:I'm happy for him.
Speaker 2:Frankie is a little more spiky. Frank will do this thing where I don't if you saw my message the other day, but he's gotten sick a few times this past year and every single time has been after a major feature release.
Speaker 1:He keeps doing
Speaker 2:this thing where he just stops sleeping and eventually whatever his body's fighting off, his body's not strong enough to fight it off and he gets he gets sick for a couple days. Mhmm. So I'm just like, okay. So Maeve Frank is like this as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can relate to the not sleeping thing. It's a pain point of mine.
Speaker 2:It's hard.
Speaker 1:Life is hard.
Speaker 2:But yeah, anyway, going back to, yeah, like these these neighborhoods, it's just I look at them and it takes me a while to realize like, oh, they probably moved into this house when they were like probably close to 50.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not like they moved in there when they were like 20 or 30. And you imagine like a lawyer, you know, ten years away from retirement, like, yeah, of course they should be able to afford something like this if they're decently successful. But yeah, it's bigger than you think.
Speaker 1:I think about that same it's the same idea with Brian Johnson because like I I try to like do really well and like eat and be active and do all the things you're supposed to do to like be healthy long term. But he like and I look at him and I'm like, man, like he's so healthy. Bet it feels amazing. And it's like, wait a minute. He's like 45.
Speaker 1:When he was my age, he was way worse off. So it's like, I got five years of just partying it up. I could live however I want and then I can turn into Brian Johnson in my fifties or whatever. Like, I'm way ahead of schedule. It's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think about that too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It just feels like everyone's your age, but
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like they're not. They're like in a different phase of their life.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. You're getting ready to enter into a different phase of life. I'm so excited for you.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be so easy.
Speaker 3:Oh my god. If
Speaker 1:it's an easy baby, I swear I'm gonna lose my mind. I mean, I'll be happy for you, of course. If you actually get off easy, it's gonna be so annoying to listen to you talk about parenting being so easy.
Speaker 2:Have I told you the observation I've made with our friends and their kids?
Speaker 1:Well, maybe, but I don't remember.
Speaker 2:Okay. So so we have we have friends that are what's the right way to phrase this? Because I don't want to sound offensive. Mhmm. We have friends that are kind of like in our bubble where they're like really like quote unquote smart
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And like really focused on like career stuff, like doing like really intense stuff like that. And then we have our other friends who are they're also like pretty successful but they're like kind of have like more normal lives. There's not as an intellectual bent to everything that they're that they're doing. Yeah. When we hang out with these two groups, we hang out with our more intellectual friends, we're like, we made a huge mistake, we should not have kids.
Speaker 2:Because they're all really miserable, Kids are like really crazy, like they like have not figured out any of
Speaker 1:this stuff. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:We came out with our other friends and we're like, man, this is gonna be awesome. Because they're all like doing really great with their kids. They all seem happier than they've ever been before.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, there's something I think there's something to be learned from here. I don't think I have that bent, the like the I see the way that our smarter friends approach having kids and I like don't have that just out of pure laziness. I feel like they're like, they go really hard and they're like really Yeah. Overbearing in lot of ways that is just difficult to live in.
Speaker 1:I think this is a millennial problem. I think it's an epidemic amongst millennial parents. I think we're maybe it was the internet and just how much information is available. Maybe it's like going hard the other way from what our parents were. Like, I I think there's something about that dynamic.
Speaker 1:Like, our parents generation, we look as parents, we look nothing like them. And I think that's Right. Probably on purpose. Like, we're just rebelling against things we did not like or whatever. Anyway, I would say it seems like the norm to me amongst millennial parents to be kind of like hyper intense about parenting
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And it's exhausting. And having been on it currently in the thick of it, it's exhausting. And it feels like I don't know. It feels like it's permeated everything in my life. Like, I'm this way about everything, about work, about relationship, about kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Don't do it. Stay away.
Speaker 2:From what? I mean, from
Speaker 1:being the
Speaker 2:The kids.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. From being the intense thing you described, like gravitate towards the friends you have that do not have that bend Be that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the this really basic wisdom that's really been around forever but it's whatever is good for you as the adult is effectively good for the kid. Yeah. Because if you're like, stressed out and barely able to operate, like, doesn't matter if what you're doing is technically good. It's practically probably not not a good thing in Met.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure other friends have like difficult moments and stuff but, yeah, we've been hanging out with them and their kids from like the moment they were born and I don't know, they just seem like they adapted to it really quickly and things feel straightforward. Yeah. Maybe it's some kind of coincidence where their babies were just easier, but I don't know. They're that's like way too strict of a pattern.
Speaker 1:Do they have like hobbies? What are the describe more about these people.
Speaker 2:Yes. They they they definitely have hobbies.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean like what like what specifically what or just tell me more about their personalities or like are they outdoorsy people or they do they have a lot of friends?
Speaker 2:They definitely are decently social. They're they they feel very alive. Like I feel like they're like really experienced life and they're like
Speaker 1:Live in the moment? I think the other
Speaker 2:thing is maybe they're a little more settled into their career. Whereas, you know, for me, like I don't see it that way. I'm like still me, it still feels like in the early stage.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So they like thinking more about other parts of their life like, you know, they like hang out with their friends or they watch sports or you know, one of them one of them has like a new hobby every time we hang out. There's like some new thing he's he's really into. Mhmm. Outdoorsy ish. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. I don't know. It just feels like there there there's a good harmony with everything going on in their life.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I this the reason I asked all that, like Casey and I, the feel the strong feeling we have is that we need to spend a lot more time with other people and a lot more time outside. I feel like if we could do those two things, like when we do those things, our kids seem to thrive and we'd all seem just happier. So Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wanna get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, we're we're glad we're we have them because then, you know, when we have kids and you know, our kids can
Speaker 1:Yeah. Hang out and everything.
Speaker 2:They can all hang out. Yeah. The other funny thing is we also have Liz's cousins. So Liz Liz has a cousin, but in her family there's basically only one kid. There's there's two now.
Speaker 2:They just had a second baby, like the first kid. He's like six or seven now. Like the best kid you could ever hope for. Like super nice, really fun. Like I don't think I've ever seen her misbehave in all the years that I've known her.
Speaker 2:It's like really nice to be around, like really sweet and you you just would never you'd like can't point to what the heck caused that. It's just like the there's nothing you would look at like how she was raised or anything and there's nothing you would point to be like, yeah, that's why. Yeah. It's like nobody will I don't think anyone mean, we mostly know her dad but like, he's not like he was not like he was reading books or like even
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thinking about any of this stuff at all. She just kind of came out and I guess was like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That like an old soul though, they say? Like, some people just seem like Yeah. They've been around.
Speaker 2:Grown up. Yeah. Yeah. And now they're the second baby and we'll see how this baby turns out if she's
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The same then The great experience. Something there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I feel
Speaker 2:like her family's crazy, like, you know, they're like loud and they're like yelling and they're
Speaker 3:like Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They're not like following any kind of like good parenting stuff that you read about. Mhmm. But you know, like the kids are great, so what can you say?
Speaker 1:What can you say? I'm so so excited for you guys. So anxious to to see how the sleeping goes, how all the other things go. I'm excited and nervous and all
Speaker 2:the We're we're gonna do shifts and it's gonna work perfectly. Oh, yeah. It's gonna happen.
Speaker 1:It's so easy, this parenting It's
Speaker 2:so easy. It's gonna be so easy. Alright. Well Alright.
Speaker 1:It's probably time to get up here. A lot to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we always talk about other stuff now.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Probably. Because we don't always record. Guys. Listen.
Speaker 2:Now, we're talking about secret We
Speaker 1:we have a friendship outside of the podcast now.
Speaker 2:That you don't get to see.
Speaker 1:You don't get to be a part of
Speaker 2:it. The stuff we do in private. What happens in the privacy of our bedrooms?
Speaker 1:I just remembered that this is a podcast when we start talking about stuff like that. Where are we on YouTube again? Are we gonna move somewhere else now? Where where
Speaker 2:I have no idea. Should we we're
Speaker 1:kind of a mess we're kind of a mess. Wherever you've found this, congratulations. It might be somewhere else soon.
Speaker 2:You gotta look at it. That's part of the fun. You gotta find us every week for a different YouTube channel.
Speaker 1:Different YouTube. Alright. Yeah. See you. Alright.
Speaker 1:See you.
