Adam: 00:00

How funny if they, like, just, like, randomly stumbled onto this podcast and then heard that episode. That'd be cool.

Dax: 00:29

Look how bright it is in my room.

Adam: 00:30

Why is it so why is it so bright? Are you white? Are you white?

Dax: 00:39

Think I I hit my limit for how much I can sit in the dark and work all day.

Adam: 00:45

Really? Feel like my room's darker than ever. It's so We're switching. You're even wearing a white shirt.

Dax: 00:56

It's a new era. New pope, new meme.

Adam: 00:59

It's kind of nice. I'm not gonna lie, there's a new pope. It's kind of a I just learned there's a new pope this morning. Did that just happen or am I behind?

Dax: 01:06

That happened yesterday and I have a fun fact. Wanna hear the fun fact? You know him. He's an

Adam: 01:13

American, right?

Dax: 01:13

Sort of.

Adam: 01:14

Just give me the fact. This is exciting.

Dax: 01:16

So Liz's grandpa in Cuba is If I remember correctly, he's like pretty involved in his local church. Mhmm. And at one point, the man that is now the pope visited and slept over my or this is grandpa's house.

Adam: 01:32

Wow.

Dax: 01:33

So crazy. Yeah.

Adam: 01:34

That's so crazy. You're basically like related to God now.

Dax: 01:40

Yeah. I was gonna say. I I think I I feel some powers coming on. That's why my room is so much brighter now. It just happens.

Dax: 01:46

Oh,

Adam: 01:49

it's so perfect. The room looks so different. You look like you're glowing like an angel.

Dax: 01:53

Yeah, yeah.

Adam: 01:54

That's awesome. All I know is new pope, American. That's all

Dax: 01:58

I Yes, know by the he's American, which is kind of crazy. But Okay. So one, I didn't know the previous pope was Argentinian. You know, feel like Nor did I. Yeah, I feel like when I see an old man that with light skin, he just looks European to me and like, you know, he's always in the Vatican doing stuff.

Dax: 02:15

So I'm like, oh, that's like an Italian guy, you know, it just

Adam: 02:17

Yeah, would have thought Italian, yeah. And I

Dax: 02:20

think they speak Italian and that's their like default language in the Vatican or something. But yeah, was Argentinian. He spoke Spanish. I'm like, oh, that's pretty crazy. And the other thing that's confusing is they just pick a new name when they're pope.

Dax: 02:32

They're just like, my name was Robert and now I'm Leo, you know.

Adam: 02:36

Yeah. So his name wasn't Leo. I saw Leo, that was that's his new name.

Dax: 02:40

It's like Robert Like something very Yeah.

Adam: 02:45

Bob. They wanna say it's Robert, but he just went by Bob. Bob is now the pope.

Dax: 02:50

I saw a clip of there was some like CNN Catholic their Catholic analyst who is a is a priest or something who was like, you know, talking about the news and like, you know, the new pope and everything. And he accidentally called him Bob because he like knew him from college or whatever. Like they went to or something. So they have some like Yeah. Personal connection.

Dax: 03:13

So he

Adam: 03:13

called him Bob. That's awesome.

Dax: 03:15

Bob's the new pope.

Adam: 03:16

Bob's the pope. Bob from America.

Dax: 03:19

Yeah. Exactly.

Adam: 03:20

It's amazing.

Dax: 03:22

Yeah. I just got sick of sitting in the dark. I think I hit my limit for how long I can just sit in the dark and I realized Yeah. I was feeling kinda negative being in this room.

Adam: 03:31

Are you gonna be positive now?

Dax: 03:33

Affecting my work. It's not happening. I'm be I'm gonna be better at being negative. Like, I was a hint of

Adam: 03:38

potential, you know. Sure. That makes Yeah.

Dax: 03:43

So I I open my window and I have like a I have a really nice view. It's like so green and and lush and nice and I've just been sacrificing all that for consistent lighting, which I don't really need anymore.

Adam: 03:54

So Yeah. I guess if you're not like doing the video stuff all the time. I like, I moved across the house from my amazing office that I loved to a hole in the ground because I was gonna record like the big the course stuff, which I think I'm not really doing anytime soon if ever. I was gonna be doing that, and it was like, this room is it's got an exterior door on it. It's, like, connected to our unfinished space, so it's very sound isolated.

Adam: 04:21

And I thought, like, oh, the kid's running around. I won't hear it. It'll be so much better for consistency, whatever. And I'm not recording anything, and I just hate it. I just if I mean, I don't hate it, but it just feels so much worse than my old office, which was bright and had a window and I could see outside.

Adam: 04:35

Yeah. And yeah.

Dax: 04:37

I think it really impacts your work. I I think I just need to get electric shades for this room, which I I'd looked into before but I didn't bother, but that would let me at least easily, you know, switch us into two modes. Right now my windows are behind my desk, so like climbing around and flipping it back and forth is is a pain. So I kind of to commit to one or the So

Adam: 04:55

I've done I've done the electric shade thing and I'll tell you what a disaster of a market. It's either literal pieces of shit or like Lutron. Like you go like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 05:08

Crestron systems.

Dax: 05:09

When I looked into it, it was so expensive.

Adam: 05:27

Good luck with that. There's no, like, prosumer version. It's like nice and you can spend more on it and you don't have to talk to some sales guy. There's nothing like that that I found. Maybe someone could correct me.

Adam: 05:38

That was like five years ago.

Dax: 05:39

I'm pretty sure my neighbor's daughter works for Crestron, so maybe I can get some kind of There

Adam: 05:45

you go. I just need one You

Dax: 05:47

doubt it. She's actually the CEO of Crestron.

Adam: 05:52

Oh, well, it means CEO. If it's like executive level.

Dax: 05:55

Then maybe I have a chance.

Adam: 05:57

I did, like, a a huge custom, like, centralized lighting and all that stuff in one of the homes we built, and we spent so much money on, like, home theater, centralized lighting, security, all this stuff. It was a disaster, and just this is warning to anybody who does this. Those companies, you can't just like like, hey. The fire alarms don't work anymore. Well, I say they don't work.

Adam: 06:21

We came home from vacation, and they were just going off, and we couldn't get them to turn off. You can't just, like, do stuff yourself. They have to, like, come out, and, like, a programmer comes out and, like, reprograms your house. And, like, everything you ever wanna do, it's like, we can't get these lights to come on. Oh, we'll be out, like, next week.

Adam: 06:38

Like, it's just it was terrible. So don't don't do that. I don't recommend it. Yeah. Just get like Hue lights or whatever.

Adam: 06:44

Just get some cheap Zigbee stuff.

Dax: 06:46

And that stuff has gotten a lot better and a lot of it has become open source, so it, like, really covers a lot of stuff now. So Yeah. Talking about

Adam: 06:54

some of that.

Dax: 06:54

Yeah. It's still not amazing. Like, I I always end in this constant loop of I'll spend a bunch of time, set it up properly, but like not fully properly, like I'll miss like 5% or something. And somehow that just erodes over time and then I'm just like not using it at all. Yeah.

Dax: 07:12

Yeah. It's it's always never land on anything great. Maybe when I have like a more modern house, can like do it right but yeah, still having

Adam: 07:21

Maybe someday.

Dax: 07:21

A good place with it.

Adam: 07:22

Someday when we're billionaires, we'll just

Dax: 07:25

We can pay people to Yeah. Flip the lights for

Adam: 07:32

How are you? I feel like we haven't talked for little bit. We've done like one episode in like a month, I feel like. We've we've just had random stuff.

Dax: 07:39

Because I was traveling. I had quite a travel experience. I don't know if you followed along over the

Adam: 07:44

past weeks. Followed along. New Jersey? Well, more I went to New

Dax: 07:47

Jersey Mhmm. Because my parents were throwing a baby shower for Liz. So we went there, then we went to New York for a wedding. Then I flew to Toronto.

Adam: 08:01

How many weddings have you been to in the last two years?

Dax: 08:03

Not a lot. I feel like I feel like I Are sure? I feel like generally, I am lower on the number of weddings that I've had to

Adam: 08:12

go to. Cause Okay. I've gone to none, just so you know.

Dax: 08:17

I guess Well, know, a

Adam: 08:18

French example. I was gonna say, unless you remarry, like if you and Liz get married again.

Dax: 08:24

Yeah. So I think for me, all of my friends did really small weddings including myself, like it was just a courthouse thing plus a little event after. Like a bunch of my friends did the same thing. But yeah, it's pretty much just like Liz's friends that we've gone to weddings for. And even then, like I feel like I've escaped it.

Dax: 08:40

Usually it's pretty bad. I guess we're hitting her family, her cousins are getting married. So I guess I'm like now getting deeper into that. You're right. I have gone to a few in the past year.

Adam: 08:50

All of my current friends have been married since long before I was friends with them. So there's just literally no reason I would have gone to a wedding, I guess. Yeah. Exactly. It happened like a little bit right out of college, I guess.

Adam: 09:02

But I I am like five years older than you, so maybe maybe that's just the difference here.

Dax: 09:06

I'm definitely like in the zone where everyone is pretty much wrapping up getting married. Married showers. Yeah. Married. I think that weddings are funny and that they can be really enjoyable if you're like deep in the friend group and like you know the majority of the people that are there.

Dax: 09:24

Yeah. And and if you're if you're not that, they're just kind of awkward because Mhmm. The one we went to, it was a kind of in between like, it was Liz's roommate that, you know, I've hung out with a bunch so I I like know her and I like and I know her now husband. Oh, her husband knows Rich Harris, which is a funny funny point of like coincidence. Like he, he works on that team at New York Times that makes the data visualizations.

Adam: 09:48

Oh, nice.

Dax: 09:48

Which is where, he's not an engineer, he's a he's a good journalist. He's more on the infographic side, like the non engineering side. Mhmm. But yeah, think Rich was on that team, that's like where he made Svelte and everything. So it was like, wow, someone from like outside my world entirely.

Dax: 10:05

Finally, there's like some kind of tie in to my world. Usually when people ask me what I do, I'm just like, like, is that worth getting into? Yeah, exactly. Fix computers. Yeah.

Dax: 10:16

So this was like a little bit in between, but there was one wedding I went to where Liz was invited and as once we got to the wedding, it was clear that it was like a polite invite and it wasn't like, you definitely have to go because she was like, more on the edge of the guest list. Yeah. Yeah. What that means is that makes me like, on the other side of the

Adam: 10:44

earth in terms

Dax: 10:44

because of the guest I'm just some random person there and it's not that big of a wedding and we look go to the ceremony. I see these two people who I've never seen in my whole life and probably will never see again, walk down the aisle, then deeply talk about their love for each other and their history and their future and this crazy intimate moment and is being witnessed by this random ass person, me, that's there for some reason witnessing this event. Like, why why is this a feature of weddings? Like, I guess it's unavoidable. Like, eventually, you invite someone and then their plus one has to just be the most random person

Adam: 11:21

Social graph. Uh-huh.

Dax: 11:23

Yeah. So I was just part of one of the most important days of these people's lives and I'm never gonna see them again. They're never gonna think about me. I think about them all the time because I'm like, why was I there?

Adam: 11:33

Oh, it's so funny. How funny if they like just like randomly stumbled onto this podcast and then heard that episode. That'd

Dax: 11:39

be They they probably Is this so random? They probably wouldn't even put it together that I'm talking about them. Well, the one thing maybe that'll

Adam: 11:45

No, make it probably

Dax: 11:45

not. Make it more clear is it was in Connecticut and I got COVID after.

Adam: 11:49

So Oh, no. Did everyone get COVID after?

Dax: 11:52

Yes. The whole like, whole wedding got COVID.

Adam: 11:53

Oh, jeez.

Dax: 11:54

Yeah. So I had to go to this random wedding that made no sense and then I got to get COVID.

Adam: 11:59

Well, guess like that's one way to remember your your wedding. Everybody got COVID. That's fun.

Dax: 12:05

The the other thing that I think about and I really hope life doesn't go this way, I feel like the older you get, like as you approach death, you're just invited to more and more and more weddings and you're just like the old person at the wedding because it's like, your grandkids cousin is getting married and then they invite you, you know. So you're just like every week just another wedding.

Adam: 12:26

There's different phases of it in life. Like when you're the generation above and you're going to kids and their friends weddings or whatever.

Dax: 12:33

Yep. So there's another phase coming and then and then you die.

Adam: 12:36

And then you die. It's true. Yeah. I actually just had thoughts couple days ago of like hitting 40 soon. Like, I'll be 40 and I'll be I'll be 39 this summer and then then it's my last year until I'm on my fortieth year.

Adam: 12:50

Just had thoughts of like, wow. Like, average lifespan in America, it's like 80. It's like I'm halfway. This is midlife. And then I started thinking about midlife crisis, I was like, I kinda get it.

Adam: 12:59

I kinda get where like you hit a point and you're like, wow, I'm on the downhill. Like, this I'm over halfway there and it's gone so fast and like mortality. I don't know. Maybe Brian Johnson's on to something. Maybe I need to to health max.

Adam: 13:13

Live to be a 120. That's another forty years.

Dax: 13:16

I just refuse to talk about this topic. So I'm just not gonna engage people.

Adam: 13:20

Wonder why you brought it up because I feel like every time we ever touch like, I'll jump into it. But I feel like every time we touch on anything Yeah. Like this Absolutely.

Dax: 13:26

Like, I

Adam: 13:27

don't wanna talk about it.

Dax: 13:27

No. We're not talking about it.

Adam: 13:29

Okay. Let's not talk

Dax: 13:30

about it. It was always be funny

Adam: 13:31

told because you I've I've got a wedding anniversary this month. Have I told you how we got married? No. Like, just stood on a beach and my brother held a MacBook and the pastor was in Missouri.

Dax: 13:41

Oh, like Zoom?

Adam: 13:43

And we stood on the beach in Florida, yeah, and did it over Zoom. He was like over video. It was awesome because not good. Because we're standing out on the beach on this hotel WiFi Yeah. And right as he, like, asks if if if one of us says I do, his signal cuts out and you just hear him go, no.

Adam: 14:05

So we're not sure if we're actually legally married. Like, it's possible that that was not a legal situation, but, yeah, we ran with it. That's actually did the courthouse thing before we left. So like, we had officially already been married, I guess. It was just How

Dax: 14:18

many was it just your brother or was there anyone else there?

Adam: 14:21

My parents and Casey's mom came as well.

Dax: 14:24

So our situation was we were in New York and we wanted to get married and we were looking at the one, the price of a wedding and also like just the effort it goes into putting on like a big wedding especially if this is a big family. We're like, there's no way we can squeeze into our life right now. Like we were kinda starting businesses and just didn't make sense to like spend the money on a wedding. Mhmm. So our mindset was, okay, let's just do a small ish thing and then we'll do a bigger wedding later.

Dax: 14:55

But our small ish thing ended up being really really nice. Like, we did a we had this photographer that just specializes in New York courthouse weddings and she basically took us on like this nice walk from our apartment to the courthouse. We took a bunch of pictures and we did a bunch of nice things. We had like this nice private situation in the courthouse where it's just me and Liz got married and we came out and then like our family was there to like throw flowers on us and stuff. Then we Nice.

Dax: 15:23

Yeah. Walked down to we walked another fifteen minutes to this bar we rented out and then like a bunch of our friends were there and we did

Adam: 15:31

Oh, that's awesome.

Dax: 15:32

Like a like a nice thing with food food and all that. Yeah, it was nice. It was like all of our friends and it was it was really great and all the emotions were like maximized. And after that, we're like, oh, that was like a real wedding. Like, we're not gonna do another bigger one later.

Dax: 15:48

It feels it feels stupidly. All emotions like went out in that thing. I've been to a lot of weddings since then with other people and I'm like, man, I still really liked ours the best. So if you're thinking about getting married, like consider that small one. It's actually pretty nice.

Adam: 16:04

Yeah. And then you didn't, you know, feel like there's so much pressure on it to be exactly what you imagined because you spent so much money and like, I don't know.

Dax: 16:11

Yeah. I I didn't

Adam: 16:11

I haven't done that either, but I would imagine that's it's expensive. I

Dax: 16:15

don't know. Yeah. It's expensive and like the actual process of a big wedding is like not really fun for the bride and groom because they're like doing all It's

Adam: 16:22

like a lot of stress.

Dax: 16:23

Yeah. And they're doing all the obligatory stuff that like stand and take a picture with every single person and like, you know, and Mhmm. All And so on some on one hand it is nice but I don't know. I think I'm I'm glad I did the small thing.

Adam: 16:34

Maximize your enjoyment. It is Yeah. Your day. Yeah. Okay.

Adam: 16:39

Let's talk about other stuff.

Dax: 16:40

Wait. Let me tell you one more thing.

Adam: 16:42

Oh, yeah.

Dax: 16:43

I went to Toronto and I met Frank.

Adam: 16:44

You travel? Oh, you met Frank. That is other stuff. I just met like, I don't know, we got into like weddings and stuff and it's just kind of not our MO.

Dax: 16:54

Our audience isn't getting married anytime soon.

Adam: 16:56

Every time you've brought up that you didn't you never met Frank, it blew my mind. Like, I always forget and then it just re blew my mind every single time. And this was no exception when you're like, you're finally meeting Frank. It's like, how have you not met Frank? That's just crazy.

Dax: 17:10

Yeah, know. It's such a weird modern thing where there's this person that I talk to every day when something like funny or interesting happens in my life, like, I tell him right away, like, he's the person he's the one of the people that that knows Mhmm. About everything that's going on. Yet, I have literally only ever seen him over Discord video. Yeah.

Dax: 17:29

So finally and I should have done this a while ago, like, I just I kept being like, I'm gonna visit Toronto, but I don't wanna go when it's cold. It has to be the summer, but then I'm having other travel in the summer, so I don't know. I got kicked around. And we're doing this last trip before like, this last trip we can travel before, you know, Liz Liz gives birth and everything. Yeah.

Dax: 17:49

Mhmm. And then we won't travel for a little bit after that. So we have to do it now or it's or now or never. So we just tacked it on at the end of the travel we were already doing. By the way, airlines air travel's done.

Dax: 18:01

It's over.

Adam: 18:01

Your tweets, man.

Dax: 18:02

Yeah. Yeah. I wanna I

Adam: 18:03

wanna dive into that too because I I'm curious, like, it all feels so bad to me, but I saw you say something about how, like, you've seen it over your lifetime get worse. And I don't remember when it was better. It's just like it's always been bad to me, but I could see how it's gotten I don't know. I I need to hear

Dax: 18:19

your So I've been Yeah. I I couldn't tell if I'm misremembering or it's one of those like, things were better before kind of

Adam: 18:26

Oh, you know what? I will say, I only flew for the first time when I was like 22.

Dax: 18:31

That's still that's still like around

Adam: 18:34

Fifteen years.

Dax: 18:36

Yeah. I I I would say it's roughly the same range I'm talking about. Okay. So here's the thing. I remember for most of my life never thinking that hard about air travel.

Dax: 18:43

I remember being like, I'm gonna book a flight, I land here, I'm gonna make plans for what I do after I land. And that was like Mhmm. A normal thing. And there was one time where I missed my flight because security was doing something annoying with my stuff, But they rebooked me an hour later and there were like a few handful of delays here and there that didn't like materially make a huge difference.

Adam: 19:09

Mhmm.

Dax: 19:09

Now, I feel like my expectation is this is gonna be an all day thing to travel Yeah. No matter where I'm going. The flight to Toronto was fifty minutes, five zero. You go up, you're in the air for thirty minutes and you come back down. Yeah.

Dax: 19:23

And I was at the airport, I got to the airport and it was six or seven hours or no, it was eight hours before I got to Toronto.

Adam: 19:32

It's the worst.

Dax: 19:32

And I don't think it was this bad before. Like, do you do you remember differently? Like, you felt like it was always that bad?

Adam: 19:37

I I just had I probably just had bad memory. I just feel like it always feels like a 25 chance that it's gonna go terribly, terribly wrong for me. And I have to connect everywhere I fly from the Ozarks.

Dax: 19:49

I never connected until recently. Yeah. So maybe When

Adam: 19:52

you have to connect every time, like, I think it's just always been kind of rough because it's so easy to get your first flight delayed and miss your connection, and that just screws the whole thing. So And

Dax: 20:01

you're effectively taking twice the number of flights as me.

Adam: 20:04

But I would say it's like 25, 30% of, like, either a delay or something horrible happening. I've like, I don't fly that much, and I've had multiple times. I'd stayed in hotels some city overnight where I wasn't intending on being because I missed the connection, and I have to take a flight in the morning. Like, that should be, like, a once in a lifetime thing. Right?

Adam: 20:24

And I feel like it's happened to me like at least three times.

Dax: 20:26

It's just to me, it feels like it feels sloppy across the board. So when we were going from so we got massively delayed from Miami to New York or to New Jersey. And so what happened was so Newark Newark has like collapsed. Newark Airport is like not working. It's like

Adam: 20:47

Oh, no.

Dax: 20:47

It like tipped over some threshold and it's a complete disaster. So and I and I and we saw we got news of this a couple days before flying and I was like, maybe it'll be better after a couple days. The flight coming from Newark to Miami to pick us up was delayed by Mhmm. An hour or something. I'm like, okay, I get it.

Dax: 21:05

Like, Newark has had problems. But we get on the plane at this point like an hour and a half later. We're sitting there and the the people are like, okay, things are messed up at Newark so they're not letting us take off because there's too many planes going there so we're waiting.

Adam: 21:21

Yeah. We're waiting

Dax: 21:22

on the Flow control. Yeah, exactly. And then all of a sudden, the guy probably comes on, he's like, hey, we just noticed our GPS is broken. So we're getting someone to come fix that. So, yeah, they're coming to fix that.

Dax: 21:37

Mhmm. And and some time goes by. Probably gets back on. Okay, our GPS is fixed. But me and the copilot have timed out.

Dax: 21:44

Like, we can't this is too long, like, ship is over. We'll there. Yep. Mhmm. When they get off, new crew comes on.

Dax: 21:51

New crew says, okay, I think we're allowed to I think we're I think they're gonna let us leave soon, but we've been sitting here for so long that we're out of gas. So we need to refuel the plane. Have to wait.

Adam: 22:02

This exact I had a scenario where we both timed out a crew and they had to fly around weather and they weren't gonna have enough fuel, so we had to go back and refuel. Like, exact Yep. Both double whammy things. Yep. There was no mechanical issue.

Adam: 22:15

Was just like those two and then you deep you deep lane the whole thing, it's just a nightmare.

Dax: 22:20

But then they get fueled up, then we're still waiting and we're stuck on the run and then we finally take off and we go, we land, like, oh, okay, we're finally here. Pilot, comes on, they're like, hey, one of our flight attendants can't find her purse. Did anyone take her purse? And this has nothing to do with like delaying us. I'm just like, what is going on?

Dax: 22:40

But the flight attendant is losing her purse in an enclosed tube. How is this possible? Liz is like she definitely just left

Adam: 22:48

out of

Dax: 22:49

Miami and was confused. Oh, and by the way, my plane in Toronto, again, a similar series of events delayed. We land, captain comes on, hey, we're here, but nobody is like pulling the the jet bridge over. So I could see the jet bridge. It's like, I can see with my eyes.

Dax: 23:09

It's like 20 feet away from where it's supposed to be. So we're stuck there, we're just waiting for someone to come and just move. I'm just like, open the door and I'll jump it. Like, I I think I can jump it. I'll jump it and I'll move it over.

Dax: 23:21

To me, it's just like, yeah, there's like foundational delays, but it just stacks on top of what feels like just sloppiness across the board. And your brother's a pilot, maybe he has a better sense of things are getting better or worse.

Adam: 23:36

Yeah. I need to ask him like just what what it's like from a pilot's perspective flying that much. Like, what are the what's the percentage of his flights that feel like something goes wrong?

Dax: 23:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 23:47

Is this just like the world getting sloppier? Are people just getting lazier and brain dead?

Dax: 23:52

The US definitely has a acute problem, I think. Because we like just have like our we have the whole like air traffic controller shortage issue because we're like, we didn't fund those programs well. We also just cut a bunch And of then all of our systems are just really old and need to be Like the newer issues is because our super old ATC system like went down and had a bunch of issues. Mhmm. I think I was reading that there was a period of time where nobody in air traffic control could communicate at all with the planes in the sky and Wow.

Dax: 24:26

That was such a stressful situation that a bunch of them just took off for a couple weeks being like, I can't do this anymore.

Adam: 24:32

Ugh. You know, that that job, flight controllers is like the highest suicide rates of any occupation or

Dax: 24:37

something like I've seen something like that. Yeah.

Adam: 24:40

It's crazy.

Dax: 24:41

Just like prolonged stress every single day probably, like a lot at risk, if you're really focused. So to me, it feels like I can click to And again, maybe everyone has a different experience, but to me, I can clearly remember an era where I felt like flying is fun and like it's a good way to get around. Now, I'm just like, I like do not want to do it. Like, if I can avoid it

Adam: 25:04

Mhmm.

Dax: 25:05

Even if it takes longer or like whatever, like I'm gonna try to avoid it as much as possible. And plus also like all the the planes flipping and crashing and hitting helicopters and stuff, like that doesn't help.

Adam: 25:13

Well, yeah. I listened to the thing about that. I guess like the rates aren't actually any worse. Yeah. I don't know.

Dax: 25:18

Did see that too.

Adam: 25:19

I don't understand why it felt like there for a bit. It was a lot worse, like it did.

Dax: 25:24

Number of incidents is the same, but yeah. When a plane hits another helicopter and everybody dies, like that's worse than anything that's happened in a while.

Adam: 25:32

Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't know. The whole, like, thinking about, like, people becoming, like, training and becoming air traffic controllers and choosing that career path and, like then just thinking about, like, Gen Z and what I know about Gen Z. Just like the younger people below.

Adam: 25:44

It's like, are there just not gonna be air traffic controllers by the time we're, like, old people?

Dax: 25:48

Because no one can focus?

Adam: 25:50

Or just, like, yeah, not focus, not have any desire to do that kind of work or I don't know. It's, like, not fulfilling enough for Gen Z. I just feel like the boomers above us would do, like, whatever they had to do to just, like, survive.

Dax: 26:03

Yeah.

Adam: 26:04

I mean, I have a lot of complaints about boomers too, but I do feel like there's less grit maybe in our generation and the generations that follow. And I don't know. I worry about, like, all these hard jobs having people that wanna sit and maybe technology helps. Maybe that we automate some of this stuff. Maybe that'll actually be a benefit.

Adam: 26:23

I don't know.

Dax: 26:23

And this is what actually scares me. So the thing with something like air traffic control is over the years it just gets hardened, right? Like you get all these rules put into place after every incident and they get that's why we have like, you know, we've experienced a period where there was there's like basically no incidents and like we feel very safe on planes. And this to me is like a very robust system, these bottom up rules were put in place. I can see how in a push to automate it, people look at the individual rules and they're like, what's the point of that?

Dax: 26:59

That makes no sense. Like, it's simpler if we don't have that in the automation,

Adam: 27:02

It's you just it's from a software developer standpoint. Everybody knows that feeling of rewriting a thing and be like, is way it could be way simpler. And then you learn why all that stuff was complicated, like all the bugs that come up.

Dax: 27:12

Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, even automating this stuff, I'm kind of like hesitant where it has to be led by someone with the right perspective. Like this is a gonna be a very hard tedious slog where we're getting every little detail right. Mhmm. Not just some like, we're gonna build a new simple system from day one type of thing.

Dax: 27:34

Yeah. So that worries me.

Adam: 27:35

Yeah. Why is it that I'm just now I'm just thinking about like just I mean, we're our perspective is software developers. Like, we're front row seats, like, computing the crazy curve it's been on. You think about, like, transistors

Dax: 27:49

Mhmm.

Adam: 27:50

You know, like, the Moore's Law stuff. Why is it that, like, certain pockets of the world have advanced so rapidly in the last fifty years? And then some of them are just like the same. Like, transportation is just the same. Hasn't really has it really improved meaningfully?

Adam: 28:04

You know what I mean? People still drive cars and get on planes. They all go the same speed.

Dax: 28:08

Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those things where as much software as there is in the world and how much we feel like, man, I can't believe people are still getting hired to like build these dumb apps. We still don't have enough software like it it's it is Yeah. It is pretty crazy. There's still all these crevices in the world that it has not reached because it's too difficult or there's just a lot of forces against it or, you know, that the migration is is challenging.

Dax: 28:32

Mhmm. Yeah, we still need a lot more lot more software. I think that I think that's like why this AI stuff is interesting because I think it helps get into some of these crevices. Yeah.

Adam: 28:39

Good thing implementation cost is going to zero. So

Dax: 28:44

Yeah. I don't

Adam: 28:44

know if that's true. Everything I say about AI right now is just tongue in cheek. I have no idea which side is true. I'm just like, probably zero. It's gonna be free, easy to make or not.

Adam: 28:56

It's gonna be harder. I don't know.

Dax: 28:57

It's funny you messaged me being like, some days I you were like because you you sent me Claude a screenshot of Claude being really stupid

Adam: 29:04

and you're

Dax: 29:04

like, some days I feel like this is all so stupid and and not going anywhere. I'm like, yeah, literally every week I have the opposite take on AI and someone even commented on it being like, the actress has to get different is like just arguing the opposite side every every other week. And like, yeah, if you're actually using this, that's just how it feels. Like, there's days where I'm gonna be like, wow, it did such a good job. There's other days where you're like, this did such a bad job that I fundamental I think the tech is just fundamentally flawed.

Dax: 29:34

Like, there's no way this is the path to the place we want to get to. Right?

Adam: 29:40

Yeah. Yeah. Some of the things it's capable of concluding or making diffs for are just like, this can't be it. That if we can't like, a better version of this is still not good. This is not there's no no hope.

Adam: 29:57

I don't know. It's all simultaneously super exciting and there's weeks, like you said, there's like times where I'm just like, man, the future is just so exciting. I can't wait. Every new model is like exciting. And then there's the weeks where it's like, man, I'm I'm working on something like this.

Adam: 30:12

Like, I'm trying to make a thing that uses these tools and just for my own sake, if nothing else, like, trying to build a tool to use models to generate code. And then I'm just like, is this even worth doing? Because this is awful. Like like, some of the stuff you run into.

Dax: 30:28

Yeah. You know, I've always felt that people are really bad at assessing what makes them more productive. Think and I wrote this thread on the other day where we like there's things we like doing and we just ascribe productivity to it because we want to feel

Adam: 30:43

like Mhmm.

Dax: 30:44

It's also rational. So I think people are generally about assessing is a tool making them more productive. And I definitely feel that way with some of these AI things where I'm like, a big drive for me to use them is so I can exert less and be lazier. And that's really biasing my ability to judge whether it's worth it or being more productive. Mhmm.

Dax: 31:03

I think that I found enough like objective things where I'm like, yes, but I'm just aware of this. Like, we're just bad at assessing what's actually making us go faster versus what's just the same or even slower.

Adam: 31:14

Yeah. It's like I don't even I know at first I was thinking about the ways I could parallelize and be faster. I feel like I've long since decided, no, it's really just about it's those moments where it writes something that I just hate. I hate doing that work. Yeah.

Adam: 31:29

And it did it, and it did it well, and that's what keeps me coming back. It's like this promise of a world where you can only do the parts you wanna do, and it's good enough to like automate the stuff that's just not that fun. That's that's what I hope for, but

Dax: 31:43

So the paralyzing thing is interesting because I agree, like, there's moments where you can do that, but man does that take a lot of energy and like a weird like It's still Yeah. It's like the opposite of flow state. It's like you're in this freaky like jitter zone where it does does not feel good to be There

Adam: 32:00

is still a very hard limit. I don't feel like you can train yourself to get past a certain number of tasks that are being juggled at once and like actually make progress at any faster rate than if you just went head down on one, finish it, head down on the other, finish it.

Dax: 32:14

Like Yeah.

Adam: 32:14

I don't know if you can do three things at once. I'm not convinced, like

Dax: 32:18

Yeah. And there's a lot of research we already know that people are bad at multitasking even if, you know, we have these tools. So I think we're so fundamentally Mhmm. So I agree. Okay.

Dax: 32:26

So then you go, Matt. The other thing you said where you said it let it just When there's just tedious work that you don't wanna do, it can take over. What are you doing while it's doing that work?

Adam: 32:36

It depends. A lot of things. I don't do the YouTube thing. I've never really fallen into the YouTube or watching Netflix while I work. I know that's a thing you like to do.

Adam: 32:46

What am I doing? Usually, I'm reading or, like, oh, I've got a browser based not reading like a book. Like, I'm usually reading something on the Internet. Like, I've maybe got Gemini or or something open in the browser doing some searching or digging into some future problem. I'm basically, like, stacking my next work, like, trying to figure out how I'm gonna solve the next problem.

Adam: 33:11

And I think that's effective use of time. Like, I I do think I'm more productive in a good day. It's just the bad days and what you're left with when it's over are just so devastating feeling.

Dax: 33:24

Yeah.

Adam: 33:24

Like, you didn't enjoy the day, so there's that. At least, like, there were days

Dax: 33:28

Mhmm.

Adam: 33:29

In my fifteen years of programming where at least you enjoyed the flow state or whatever. Like, you enjoyed the process of having the music going and coding. Even if at the end the day you're like, man, I'm in a worse place than when I started. Like, I ran myself into a hole. At least you had that satisfaction that you kind of enjoyed it.

Adam: 33:45

Now it's like, I don't enjoy sending a little, like, well written prompt and then let and waiting on it and it just being completely stupid. That part sucks. And then if you also end up in a bad place at the end of day, it's like double sucks. Yeah. I don't know.

Adam: 34:01

It's it's tough. It's tough to know whether I'm excited or I hate it. Sometimes I'd literally just think, I wish none of this had been invented. Not because, like, I'm afraid I'm gonna lose my job. I'm not like somebody who works for people.

Adam: 34:12

Don't like, I'm not gonna lose my job over AI. So, like, this is not that take. So many people, you say anything like this, and they're like, oh, yeah. Engineers are scared. They're gonna there's just these people that get off to this idea of us losing our jobs.

Adam: 34:23

It's just so stupid. I am not afraid of losing my job. I just sometimes wish it didn't exist so I didn't have so much of my mental energy invested into this stupid problem. Yes. When I had a perfectly fun enjoyable job before.

Dax: 34:38

Yeah. It's a it it is just so weird. It it's it's I think what makes it different is everything else, any other major shift in I've seen before, it's all just deterministic. Like there's a new technology that comes out. You might not get it right away and maybe you overuse it and you like eventually learn the right way to use it and you know, you find a good balance.

Dax: 35:01

Mhmm. This is like a chaos box. So like, it's just different every day, you know? Yeah. Like, there's no getting a handle of it.

Dax: 35:09

Like, you can get a little bit better at using it but, yeah, like you'll have Like I said, there's another technology where there's a day where I do well with it and the next day it's like a 100 degree, like 180 degrees in the other direction like pulling I've me never had anything like that before, so

Adam: 35:27

Chaos box, that's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah.

Dax: 35:29

So I can relate to you saying I wish it wasn't invented because I'm like, I I don't this isn't something that we can learn and get better at the same way we've done with other things.

Adam: 35:40

Yeah. I feel like if the models just suddenly stop doing really stupid stuff, which I don't know if that's possible, but if they did and they were reliable and they could call tools reliably, then like there is this world I think I could enjoy where I don't do tedious things and I mostly do high level and I can move faster. Like, for anything I'm working on, I have these stupid lists. I use this Clear app, and it's just like I mean, it's just can you see on the camera? Yeah.

Adam: 36:08

It's just like I have things and things and things that I want to do always, and I'm always thinking of new things. I want to add lists. If I could chew through that faster, I'd love that world, even if it's less enjoyable work. I just don't know if we're getting there and I can't tell if I'm actually moving any faster or if I'm just more frustrated.

Dax: 36:25

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you go through that list and it'll like nail the first one. You're like, wow, that saved me a whole day. Then the next one costs you two days.

Adam: 36:35

Exactly. That's exactly it. Like, you'll have that it's like golf where you hit that one shot,

Dax: 36:41

it keeps

Adam: 36:41

you coming back. I have that one day where it does all the things I need and I'm like, I'm gonna be a professional this, whatever this is. And then the next three days, you spend on the stupidest stuff, and you're just it's just tough. I'd love to hear if other people have so one thing I'm aware of is that I only use a very small subset of the many tools out there right now and and even the many models. I gotta be curious from people who use Cursor or Windsurf or even the Aders of the world.

Adam: 37:12

There's like Root Code, I think, is the thing, which why would you name your thing after a kangaroo? I just can't use a thing named after a kangaroo. I don't know. I don't get it. There's Klein.

Adam: 37:21

There's like a handful of these that keep coming up. People say, oh, this one's so good. And I wonder, like, are people having a better time than me? Am I just too stubborn to leave NeoVim and if I just did, I'd have a better time? Like the models are really good with the system prompts they use on this tool.

Adam: 37:35

I don't know. I wonder about that.

Dax: 37:37

Yeah. I I I just don't think they are. I just feel like this agentic thing where like it it just runs on its own. Do I know some of the other like auto complete stuff, there's a bit more variation in in how good it is. But yeah, in terms of like the whole vibe coding thing, I don't think there's better experiences.

Dax: 37:54

Like you have pushed, you've like looked at this from all different angles and tried it. I I've done it myself not just for coding, I mean less for coding, more on just general tasks side. Mhmm. And yeah, like there are people better than me at it that get better results but it's like, I'm looking for like a five x better result. I think everyone's Yeah.

Dax: 38:14

Like, the best person at this maybe is like 25% better than than I am and it's not really really that meaningful. The other thing is stepping back a bit and I'll this is a little bit like reading tea leaves and probably just making stuff up. If I look at how OpenAI is operating, every single move they've made for years now is in the direction of this is roughly as good as it gets, while saying the opposite, right?

Adam: 38:44

Yeah. Yeah.

Dax: 38:45

And I believe that they can believe both things at once, but this whole Windsurf acquisition

Adam: 38:52

Blows my mind.

Dax: 38:53

Yeah. It's like Not the

Adam: 38:54

number of dollars. Just like why are they buying Windsurf? I don't like, because they think this is it and they just wanna capitalize on all the people using the thing.

Dax: 39:04

There is basically creating more what holds in like the application layer, right? Mhmm. If you think about like a parallel, AWS cloud, imagine if AWS was like, we're gonna focus on infrastructure and helping you guys with applications. And the next thing you know, they're building like they're like building stat muse on their own or they're building like Yeah. Like linear on their own.

Dax: 39:29

Then you're kind of like, if they started doing that you would think, oh, maybe they don't really believe in this cloud thing. They don't believe that the whole world could build on top of this and it's gonna enable a lot because they're like, we need to capture the application layer. So the acquisitions, I mean, like a year ago they had some kind of big announcement. It was like the most boring enterprise y b to b thing. This is like in the middle of them like hyping up AGI and it was like just It was an equivalent of like single sign on.

Dax: 39:59

Like it was kind of that kind of announcement. Yeah. And then sit And and to them, they know they acquired Windsurf and again deep into the application layer. They just hired and this is a little weird, they so they had a board member who's the CEO of Instacart. She is now joining OpenAI.

Dax: 40:14

She's leaving Instacart, joining OpenAI as a CEO of applications, which again is another like deeper investment love that. Layer.

Adam: 40:21

Yeah. Mhmm.

Dax: 40:23

And there's old quotes from Sam Altman talking about Saying that they're not gonna be an application layer and he defines it as, if you build anything assuming the model won't get better, you might feel like OpenAI is encroaching in your territory because like a model will get better and it'll kind of they'll kind of make it pointless for that application to exist. But then he said, if you build things assuming the model will get better, that's what we define as the application layer. Our job is to make the model better. Your job is to build stuff that takes advantage of these better models and fills whatever gap there is. And I think makes sense.

Dax: 41:05

I think that's a correct way to phrase it. But Windsurf and AI editors are in that second category. They're not very good right They're entirely built on the premise of the models getting better and then just doing the last mile. For OpenAI to acquire and get into that space effectively saying that we wanna win the coding, code editor tooling war. Yeah.

Dax: 41:29

That is like yeah. You're not you're not doing that. You're competing in application space. I think it's like fair for us for you for us to say like, you're not really betting on just being a model provider.

Adam: 41:39

Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. Yeah.

Adam: 41:42

It feels like they just they got really because it Codex was not far that's pretty close timing with the Windsurf acquisition. Mhmm. It feels like they just, like, decided they needed to care about developers with Anthropic kind of carving that niche out. Yeah. I don't know.

Adam: 41:57

This is all like random commentary. No.

Dax: 41:59

I I think that is right and I feel like Anthropic has always positioned themselves as like, they're gonna focus on certain verticals and like do it really well or maybe like, at least initially. And yeah, they found a foothold in in coding and and developer tools.

Adam: 42:15

Yeah. And you can kind of like squint and see how if you're Sam Altman and Anthropic has carved out we're the best for developer tools and then you realize, oh, these models might only be good at coding. That might be Right. Yeah. This is all headed towards just, like, automating code.

Adam: 42:30

Then you kinda have to, like, compete in that space. Maybe that justifies a Windsurf acquisition just to get a bunch of developers that use Windsurf, which I don't know who uses Windsurf. I know everyone uses Cursor. Cursor was more popular, right? Why why buy the second one?

Dax: 42:43

I guess Cursor didn't wanna sell.

Adam: 42:45

Oh, well, guess that's fair. Wouldn't that suck if Microsoft beats them and then they didn't sell for $3,000,000,000 if you're the founders of Cursor?

Dax: 42:53

I think Microsoft will beat them and I I like, for the current valuation which is 9,000,000,000, for that to make sense, you basically need to win the editor. Yeah. Like, you need to be the default one that everybody is using. Mhmm. It would take such a colossal fuck up from Microsoft to allow that to happen.

Dax: 43:14

Obviously, still think like even if Microsoft wins like there's probably still a multi billion dollar business potentially.

Adam: 43:21

Yeah. As I think about it, the founders are probably fine. They're making so much money right now that

Dax: 43:25

Yeah. Well, the other thing is like this they are like one of the fast and maybe the if not the fastest like ARR growth company ever, like it's insane. Mhmm. But I also don't think that anyone has ever given away more money for free. I think it's literally to the levels of like Uber back in the day.

Dax: 43:47

Oh, Like, I I I could go anywhere in New York for like $3.40, like, that was amazing.

Adam: 43:51

When you say that, are you saying like they they charge I think a $20 subscription, they're just It's

Dax: 43:56

flat users.

Adam: 43:57

Yeah. Is the average user using way more usage than that? You suspect? Like, are they burning cash? They probably are, but

Dax: 44:05

If I think about my usage of Claude's API, I use more than $20 and I'm not even a heavy

Adam: 44:13

Oh, yeah. Sure.

Dax: 44:14

Heavy AI user. If I'm using like a AI based code editor, I imagine I'm using it even more than I am. So again, I don't know, but it seems very unlikely this $20

Adam: 44:24

Yeah.

Dax: 44:24

It's like a made up number that OpenAI made up because they had to just pick a random number

Adam: 44:28

Yeah.

Dax: 44:29

And everyone got anchored to that.

Adam: 44:30

And it's funny that number, that random number five years ago was like, that's high for consumer subscription. Now it's like, I don't know, you can't eat for $20. You can't do anything for 20

Dax: 44:39

Yeah.

Adam: 44:39

It's like kind of the new 10. Yeah. Like an American 20 is kind of the new 10. I don't know. Yeah.

Adam: 44:45

It's interesting how that's not even a high number anymore.

Dax: 44:48

Yeah. And if you look for like some other like data points or price discovery, Anthropic is not letting you use Claude code on their $20 a month subscription. They're making you do the $100 I think it's a $102,100 dollar a month subscription, then you can use A

Adam: 45:04

100 It's confusing. They have a 100 and a 200 version of the same thing.

Dax: 45:08

Yeah. Max.

Adam: 45:09

$100 version or the 2 Yeah. Dollar version.

Dax: 45:11

And that lets you that lets you do use Cloud Code, but then even then it's limited. It's not limited Cloud Code. Yeah. So the way I look at things is whoever has the least friendly pricing model is likely to have the most accurate like sustainable pricing model.

Adam: 45:28

The least friendly

Dax: 45:30

Yeah. ClawCo is very it's like not feels like a bad deal like paying over a $100 and it's not even unlimited, like, feels like a bad deal. Mhmm.

Adam: 45:37

But it's more sustainable, more like

Dax: 45:38

That makes me think that that's probably the real price.

Adam: 45:40

I mean, Kershaw still, like, raise as much as they're printing revenue, they're also, like, raising huge amounts of capital. So they must be in, like, burn phase where they're just, like, I mean, obviously growing, like, crazy, I guess. Yeah. But who is the user of cursor? I still don't understand.

Adam: 45:54

Like, is it developers or is it non developers or is it like, how did they become such a fast growing they just replaced people's Versus Code with cursor basically? So all the people all the developers that use Versus Code?

Dax: 46:05

Yeah. I guess like if I'm a v if you were a Versus Code user, there's basically like for sure everyone probably switched to Cursor. Yeah. That said, I'm just like, what the fuck is even Cursor? Like, think the few times I've tried it, it feels like such a slight modification to Versus code.

Dax: 46:26

Like, I get the cursor tab thing is made better than GitHub Copilot or whatever. Buy that. Super Maven. But again, like, that's just a plugin again. Mhmm.

Dax: 46:35

And then, like, the whole sidebar yeah. Okay. The diff thing okay. You can see the diff on the file and accept it. Like, that that probably is like a good good workflow.

Dax: 46:45

But it feels so thin. Mhmm. It looks like a thin thing to build a company on.

Adam: 46:50

They they like train models or something, don't they? Do they like do custom models or no?

Dax: 46:54

Yeah. They were hiring for people to do that and they are doing that. And they acquired SuperMaven which is a custom model.

Adam: 47:02

Right.

Dax: 47:02

I don't know if they're using that or if they just shut it down and they have their own. Like, I don't know exactly what happened with that but

Adam: 47:06

They better not shut it down because I'm still paying my $10 a month. It's so good.

Dax: 47:10

Yeah, me too. I'm I'm Yeah. I love using SuperMaven. But, yeah, I I have no idea what's going on inside that company.

Adam: 47:15

If they are I mean, if they are training their own models, maybe they could be using them for internal stuff. But you, like, choose a model in Cursor. Right? Like, people use Gemini and Cursor and they use so it's still the underlying providers right now. You're right.

Adam: 47:26

AgenTik.

Dax: 47:26

Yeah. You're right.

Adam: 47:27

Which I I this whole thing, like, people talk about all these models and how great oh, now Gemini 2.5 has a new version, and it's so great. I I hate how much the reality is I can't use anything but 3.7. Like, Sonnet 3.7 is the only thing that can call tools reliably and actually do the agentic thing. Yep. I use Gemini, and I just dump my whole code base into it to get, like, ideas and insights and to build markdown files as a plan for Sonnet.

Adam: 47:53

But like, I cannot use a different model as the workhorse model in this agentic thing. Everything else falls on its face just immediately.

Dax: 48:02

Yeah. And it's funny because that's not even coding related because I went through the exact same thing for OpenControl of figuring out I had my test prompt of like, look into why I had a billing spike in February. And I tried every single model and they all just they all seem to not the feeling I got was they did something with 3.7 where they like very intentionally made it like, dude, there's a loop, run to an issue, think about a new idea, retry thing.

Adam: 48:32

Because almost It's built for that flow.

Dax: 48:34

Yeah. Every other model seems to when they when it does do that, it almost seems like by accident where, like, they'll kind of do it and they'll, like, flop on the next one. Whereas

Adam: 48:43

Yeah.

Dax: 48:44

Three seven feels like I'm gonna burn all of your money to figure out this problem in in in a good way.

Adam: 48:50

In a good way. Yeah. Not like a malicious way. I don't think they were just trying to, like, burn more tokens. It clearly has this formula, three seven, where it starts by saying, okay.

Adam: 49:00

I'll fix your problem with it summarizes what you prompted it. Then calls a billion tools. It'll just call tools until it finally gets to a point where it says, okay. I did the thing, and then it summarizes it with a nice markdown summary. None of the other tools none of the other models do that.

Adam: 49:15

Like, they don't they don't do the summary at the end. They don't acknowledge you at the beginning. They just start calling random tools, and then they just stop, or they won't call some of the tools. Like, clearly,

Dax: 49:24

three do the work, you're asking.

Adam: 49:26

That's not a funny

Dax: 49:27

thing. Yeah.

Adam: 49:27

Could you show me this file? It's like, no. You have a view file tool. Use it. Yeah.

Adam: 49:32

This it just spit. Sorry.

Dax: 49:34

Yeah. And like, I'll I'll tell it to like refund something on Stripe and I'll be like, you should go to their Stripe console and refund them. I'm like, no, as I'm asking you to do that.

Adam: 49:43

Yeah. That's the whole point here.

Dax: 49:45

Yeah. So they they did something. There's some magic there.

Adam: 49:48

Yeah. We talked about this on one of podcasts, I think. It wasn't a coincidence, I don't think, that they released three seven and Clog Code at the same time. Mhmm. They've clearly trained three seven or they've done something with some kind of underlying prompt, system prompt thing, and it is built for this purpose.

Adam: 50:01

I just wish the smarts of Gemini 2.5 or even one of the OpenAI models like o three, I wish the intelligence of one of those models had this ability, and I would never use Claude three seven again, like, ever because it's dumb. It's just it's stupid.

Dax: 50:17

I think the proof here is with a lot of these other models, they were really bad. They basically would try one one tool and give up. Then when I put in something really aggressive, like, if you run an error, think really hard about like a different way to solve the problem and try again and never give up. And it would it would improve. I wouldn't say I'm not saying it's like it fixes a problem, but it would it would improve.

Dax: 50:40

Right? It would like, you know, kinda do what I'm asking it. Whereas the system prompt for Cloud Code does not include that at all. It doesn't say anything about like, keep trying or like calling Yeah.

Adam: 50:51

Yeah. It's baked into the model. Like, it's baked into something we can't see anyway. Maybe not into the model, but like Yeah. They have their own system prompt that they meld with ours or something.

Adam: 50:59

There's something on the other side of the API boundary that they do to make three seven that way, and I just wish that secret sauce would make it into every other model so that the latest, greatest models, you could just plug in in this role and it would do all the things you expect.

Dax: 51:13

Yeah. I would expect this to happen because I They're think that gonna see this. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people posting stuff like like, you know, I think yesterday we saw everyone was like, oh, the new two five pro update is so good and, you know, whatever benchmark crap, they got a good score.

Dax: 51:30

Mhmm. I think the average person doesn't test this thing at all. I think they just like ask it a single question and see if it gets a good answer.

Adam: 51:38

Which I do again come back, I wonder, do people test it in Cursor, and does Cursor have a better system prompt that like, they've worked the magic to get this out of these other models? I just wonder if that's the case. Somebody said Klein is really good with Gemini 2.5. They haven't had this experience. I need to hear somebody tell me or, like, show me that not just, like, Twitter speak.

Adam: 52:00

Like, oh, no. It's really good. Like, show me. Like, is it actually really good? Because I've never seen another model do what three seven does, and I wish I had one that did it.

Dax: 52:09

Yeah. To me, the variables seem very limited. It's like the only thing you can control as someone just using the model is a system prompt and like the list of tools that and a description. Yeah.

Adam: 52:21

And I guess how you yeah. How you name the tools, how you format the descriptions. Like, there's there are some knobs you could turn.

Dax: 52:27

Yeah. And and and I've seen improvements where like, I've like improved the descriptions or like documented parameters better or like updated system prompt and I've like improved the system prompt over time. And it does get better but

Adam: 52:40

But there's still like a binary thing that 3.7 has that the other ones don't have. Yeah. Just feels like

Dax: 52:45

And I don't think that tweaking explains the difference between one person being like this is bad and another person being like this is good. Yeah. But that yeah, the tweaking can explain that wider gap to me. I think it's just people aren't really using it as intensely or like really comparing it to like consistently trying the same thing and seeing if it's actually getting better or like keeping track of what it sucks at and trying it again. Like I I It's It is like a very A lot of this is like traditional science because the model is such a black box that we do not understand how it works or what's changed about it.

Dax: 53:21

So it's like very similar to like scientists trying to observe phenomena in nature. Yeah. Where you have to be really, really, really diligent to actually figure out what's going on, what's like a false It's like so easy to find false correlations and things like that. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Dax: 53:40

And I don't think any of us are particularly

Adam: 53:42

We're not that rigorous, Yeah. Yeah.

Dax: 53:45

I I think for us, we are very used to seeing a very complicated system that's like naked. So we can go like introspect it and understand how it's working and then say, oh, okay. Mhmm. Here's how it works. We're not used to a system we can't look inside that we need to just poke and see what the behavior is and like, you know, get understanding that way.

Adam: 54:06

Yeah. There are a couple people that I follow on Twitter for this exact reason that they do this. And but the the problem is so one that's, like, more like, household name not household name, but what's Simon do you do you follow Simon Will Willison? He writes he's got, like, a blog, and he's, like, a long time he co creator of Django, like, a long time Python guy. So I never really followed him or had a reason to until AI stuff.

Adam: 54:36

He writes really nice articles about when there's new models.

Dax: 54:38

I've seen his Twitter around.

Adam: 54:40

Yeah. Yeah. Like, when he when there's a new model, he actually does kinda, like, run them through some benchmarks of his own or whatever, and he seems pretty knowledgeable about it. The other person, though, is x oh, man. I'm gonna yeah.

Adam: 54:52

X j d r. I basically just go to Twitter to see this Shrek man's tweets these days. The problem is he's, like, doing, like, CUDA programming and all this stuff. Like, he, like, custom runs all these models on his $2,000,000 rig with full of GPUs. Like, he is not a normal person.

Adam: 55:12

So when he says a model is good, it's like he's doing things to make it good. Like, he still says Maverick is good, and, like, he runs it using all these certain parameters. Like, yeah. You just gotta tweak the whatever. And I'm like, okay.

Adam: 55:22

Well, for me, that's not helpful. Yeah. But it's nice to see somebody who actually knows what models are good at what. Like, he knows this one's really good at tool calling, this one's really not. And I actually trust everything he says.

Adam: 55:33

So give him a follow on Twitter. He's amazing.

Dax: 55:36

But, yeah. This again, like, it's crazy. Every time pretty much every time we've got on this podcast talk, it's like the same topic and it kind of goes Yeah. To what you're saying which is we're like all stuck trying to figure this out. And Mhmm.

Dax: 55:50

It doesn't really feel like it's by choice. It feels like we have to because this thing exists.

Adam: 55:57

Uh-huh. It's like showing the new guy around the office. Like, we just it's an obligation. Yeah. And it's part of our job now, but like, some days I love it, some days I hate it.

Adam: 56:08

It's such a weird yeah. There's just fifteen years of doing this, there's never been anything like this for me in my career.

Dax: 56:14

Yeah.

Adam: 56:15

Not like AI, just like this kind of dilemma where I feel this way about my work.

Dax: 56:19

Yeah. And this stuff is so complicated because it's like so I think about some tedious work. Let's say I like rename something in a way where like my LSP can't just auto rename it, I need to go update things in a bunch of files. Mhmm. Obviously tedious, boring, but I there are like times in my day where I feel good doing work like that because it's just, you know, you're like every second you're you're like getting stuff done, you know it's gonna work at the end.

Dax: 56:48

It's like Mhmm. It's like just it's labor but it feels kinda good to cut up, you know, other kinds of ways I need to use my brain in the day. Mhmm. And that's the type of stuff that AI can just totally take away from me. But I don't know if that's putting me That's in a better place.

Adam: 57:06

Yeah. Well, a good example yesterday, I had to do like a big fine replace of a couple of patterns across a code base. And I could have just burned the tokens and just had AI do it, and I think it would have done it, like, done it fine. But I also realized, like, I don't do a very good job of this in NeoVim. Like, I didn't have the whole quick fix list, like, workflow down very well, and I don't have the commands memorized once I do have stuff in a quick fix list.

Adam: 57:30

So I just like spent the time to like do it in Neovim the right way and like used even used Jim and I or something to help me understand the trade offs, different approaches. Because in Neovim, there's like a 100 ways to do everything. Yeah. In in Unix in general, there's like a 100 ways to do everything. So I just kind of like did it the manual way, but like tried to improve, just sharpen my tools, you know, like the Neovim approach.

Adam: 57:51

And I realized like that, yeah, it's taken away from that too. Like, it's taken away from the tinkering and the like just kinda like refining your craft If you just deferred the LLM on stuff like that, like, you realize, like, a lot of those types of tasks, there's some way that somebody's come up with before all this that's like a fun kind of, like, brain tickling experience.

Dax: 58:10

No. Yeah. It's it's all fine. I think the challenge here is it's good to preserve that if it's still needed. The question is like, which way is it gonna fall?

Dax: 58:21

Right? Like let's say I always compare it, mean, this comparison, CSS float. We all knew all these float tricks back in the day to like get the right layout. Mhmm. And, you know, that ended up being a thing that just totally was not needed when certain like layout stuff came out like Flexbox and stuff.

Adam: 58:38

Yeah. Flex. Yeah, sure.

Dax: 58:40

So it would have been dumb to be someone trying to like preserve their usage of it Yeah. Because ultimately Yeah. It was eliminated. Mhmm. But if Flexbox only partially solved it and failed in a lot of cases, then the people that like kept up their knowledge of that end up in a really good position if they like learned both.

Adam: 59:03

Mhmm.

Dax: 59:04

So yeah, it's just it's just unclear which way it's it's gonna fall. I can't tell if I'm just Yeah. Preserving tradition for fun or if it's gonna continue to be something that's important.

Adam: 59:15

I mean, feel like I at this point, I'm doubled down and quadrupled down on leveraging these things. And it's gonna just feel like a huge bummer if they don't get better because I feel the pain every day of them sucking, and I better at least get the payoff of them getting good and all this being worth it. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I've invested heavily into this between tokens and also just, like, building tools. It just feels like I need this to pay off for my sanity.

Adam: 59:43

But then if it doesn't, I guess it's like the consolation is we still love programming and that's a pretty good

Dax: 59:48

I just wanna know worst case.

Adam: 59:49

Wanna know what's gonna be. Yeah. And I wanna know how long it's gonna drag on like this. Like, I don't know.

Dax: 59:54

There's this thing that got posted, I mean, it was maybe like a month ago. It was like that was called it was basically some people deep in the AI research space that like play out the next like ten years or something and make all these predictions and how things are gonna go out. And obviously they get to or a pretty not obviously, but like, as you would guess, they get to a pretty fantastical place pretty quickly. Mhmm. And you know how I say I've read like 10 books and they've will they write 10 books?

Dax: 01:00:24

Yeah. One of the ideas that were like deeply that show up across some of those books is how consistently experts in a field Mhmm.

Adam: 01:00:40

I know where you're headed.

Dax: 01:00:41

Like just are horrible at prediction. Like they they do worse than a non expert, like an average person like Mhmm. And it's it's this crazy dynamic where like the closer you are to it, the more likely you're like over time, you're overfitting the the information you have. Mhmm. And it becomes very hard for you to predict stuff in the future.

Dax: 01:00:59

And this this shows up as like like deep, like intellectual analysis of why this happens. You know, I've I've seen it in a bunch of places there. It also shows up in like fun practical places like there's this really famous panel that Isaac Asimov was on alongside a bunch of like scientists or like people deep in, like people actually doing stuff. Mhmm. And they're all asked to make predictions of what, you know, fifty I forgot what it was, maybe like fifty years in the future what it's gonna look like.

Dax: 01:01:31

And the science fiction author Isaac Asimov had the most conservative responses and ultimately ended up being closer to to the truth than the people like building the future. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen To me, this is like a first principle to me. Like, I have seen it enough from like, this is a foundational truth about the world.

Dax: 01:01:50

Like, you just cannot like, use expert analysis or expert predictions as like it just never works out. Simultaneously, like, I'm still very open to the idea that this time it's different, you know? Feels like what I don't like about this first principle is it feels like a like an attack on a personality. It's like you're this kind of person, therefore, anything you say is wrong. So I don't like that because it has nothing to do with the substance of their argument.

Dax: 01:02:17

But simultaneously, it just is so true historically. Yeah. So that's where I also struggle with this.

Adam: 01:02:23

Yeah. It it feels like a different category of problem than predicting the future in the sense that like like, if I I guess playing out what you're saying, like, the experts right now in our field or in technology would say, like, coding is going away in the next whatever. Let's say the conservative ones are saying in the next two years. I mean, the more aggressive ones are, like, three months or whatever. Six months That's yeah.

Adam: 01:02:46

Yeah. So if this if the experts are prognosticating that programming's going away in months, I guess the more conservative, like, if you had the science fiction writer of today guessing, they would say five years. My problem is, like, is it even going away? Like, is this even gonna happen? Like, are we even gonna keep going on this path?

Adam: 01:03:09

It's, like, a real question in my mind. Like, there's

Dax: 01:03:12

Yeah.

Adam: 01:03:13

It's not like how soon. It's like, is this it?

Dax: 01:03:15

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I I also feel like, is it even possible?

Adam: 01:03:18

Yeah. I could have bold that whole thing I just said into like, I don't know if it's predicting how soon or whether this is even the direction things

Dax: 01:03:24

are going. So for me, it's not even like the getting the time right. I I agree with you. It's about like is this even are we even on is this a path we're on even

Adam: 01:03:32

The right track.

Dax: 01:03:33

Something that leads to that given infinite time. Yeah, I I think this thing cuts in two ways, right? So when you when we say experts, we're talking about experts in AI. People that are People that like really understand how these systems are built and can like predict how they're gonna get better. Mhmm.

Dax: 01:03:47

They're not experts in programming, right? Yeah. Just like programmers often think that they can automate things that cannot be automated because it's a lot more complicated than it seems to an outsider because you're an expert at programming, you're not expert at something else. I think the same dynamic might be happening here where they're just wrong because they don't understand the depth of this. Yeah.

Dax: 01:04:09

Simultaneously, programmers are not experts in AI. So like us saying it's not gonna happen. Also, you know, it's like everyone is just no one's an expert in what like the full picture. Right? Mhmm.

Dax: 01:04:21

Mhmm. So I I think, yeah, that's why I have such a tough time strongly believing anything.

Adam: 01:04:27

Yeah, same.

Dax: 01:04:28

Yeah. Like at my core, believe that it won't. I don't think it's gonna dramatically make a huge impact in the world. I feel that at my core, If I look at people's behavior versus what they're saying, their behavior also seems to line up with what I'm saying. But as I acknowledge I just acknowledge all these biases I have that makes me wanna believe all that, so Yeah.

Adam: 01:04:48

I just really enjoy making fun of the people at this point that strongly believe anything about AI.

Dax: 01:04:53

People are so That's crazy. I'm like, how can you it's again, it's a chaos box. How can you not hate it one day and love it the other day? Like

Adam: 01:05:01

Uh-huh.

Dax: 01:05:02

I don't understand how you can have any other feeling about it.

Adam: 01:05:05

There's just some people that have made AI like their personality. Like, if you if you have in your head a definition of like AGI and ASI, you're just weird. I'm sorry. Like, just move on. Like, find another hobby because you're one of those people that is the reply guy on Twitter that strongly feels something about AI, and it's just so annoying.

Adam: 01:05:25

Like, what I mean, people did this with crypto, but, like, it feels even weirder with AI. Like, the amount of, like, emotional reaction people have around something so unrelated to them as a person, maybe it's just the state of the world, like everything's getting more impassionate. I don't know. Impassioned? Yeah.

Dax: 01:05:42

Impassioned. Yeah. I think I I keep trying to like remember exactly what crypto was like to see if there's any wisdom in our experiences there.

Adam: 01:05:51

Was definitely weird.

Dax: 01:05:53

Yeah. And it was definitely like obviously a lot of parallels, but I think the the thing that throws a hitch in everything is AI is like already more useful than crypto is. So it's like hard for me to Yeah. Draw the parallel without like feeling like I'm

Adam: 01:06:06

Sure.

Dax: 01:06:06

Not giving it the right credit.

Adam: 01:06:08

Can I ask you a really random question before we go? Yeah. What do you think about Roy Lee? Does that name mean anything or do

Dax: 01:06:15

I need to say more I about I have a lot of complex thoughts about him.

Adam: 01:06:18

I do too. And I wanna hear your thoughts. I feel like as millennials, this is a a fun topic because it it dips into like this new generation that's coming up and all kinds of stuff.

Dax: 01:06:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 01:06:29

Or do you not wanna talk about him? Maybe you I don't want

Dax: 01:06:31

I do wanna talk about him. I think I'd love to talk to him and give him some advice. I think that's kind of where my

Adam: 01:06:37

Oh, okay. Where my

Dax: 01:06:38

instincts are.

Adam: 01:06:39

He probably would not come on our podcast, but that would be awesome. Yeah.

Dax: 01:06:45

I think and again, for people that just to get a little bit of context, Roy Lee invented this like tool that lets people cheat on interviews and was very good at making a big public stink about it. Columbia got pissed, was very good at leveraging Columbia getting pissed into more attention. Here's my feeling about him. I think there's a group of people that are like, he's ruining his reputation or like he's like like he's he's like screwing himself over. I think they're wrong.

Dax: 01:07:14

I think like fundamentally, they don't really get what's going on and I think they're wrong. Yeah. But I do think he's making a mistake that is it possible not to? And I don't even think if I talk to him like, I could even get I think this is a thing that you have to go through. Yeah.

Dax: 01:07:27

He's obviously very good at getting attention. And a lot of people look and at they're like, they focus a lot on that. They're like, he's so good at getting attention that anyone criticizing him by anything is wrong. But I think there's this trap where when you mechanically when you're so good at like knowing what will get people to engage and like focus and give you attention Mhmm. You think you are conquering that system because you're like playing it, but it's playing you also because it like traps your mind into focusing on things that will get attention or that obviously will get attention or doing things in a way that'll obviously get attention.

Dax: 01:08:08

And it's mechanically following that step by step does not lead to There's no guarantee that leads to a good place, right? Mhmm. The products builds are things that are innately provocative. There's no guarantee that the most important thing that he can work on is gonna be something provocative. It might be something that's not provocative at all.

Dax: 01:08:28

So I feel like the things he works on and things he does, he is so biased by how can I do it provocatively that he does dumb things that don't that that are wrong and don't make a lot of sense?

Adam: 01:08:42

So Yeah. Sure.

Dax: 01:08:43

That's basically my feeling around him. I think the the stuff from this week was particularly funny.

Adam: 01:08:50

Yeah. The type of thing. I like, I think I don't even so much have opinions about him or where he's headed or, like, you have this very, like, startup mind where you can, like, see all the pitfalls and all the things that I'm just thinking, like, my first blush, I'm a millennial developer, and I hate every Gen Z developer. Like, I just hate him.

Dax: 01:09:08

So at

Adam: 01:09:09

first, I just hate this guy. Who is this? Oh my god. But then it's like, oh, he doesn't have an anime face. That's nice.

Adam: 01:09:14

Yeah. That's true. Like, oh, he actually shows his own face. And then, like, and then I dig into, like, oh, I actually really agree with this whole, like, college stance that it is just so fake, and there's so much stupid stuff about college and about the systems that exist. Like, I get the, like, stick it to the systems.

Adam: 01:09:31

I get that sentiment. And then, like, he's really good at the attention thing, and it's just funny to watch people get inflamed so obviously. Like, he's just he's good at that stuff. Yeah. And I think I'm not so much thinking long term.

Adam: 01:09:43

It's just like, I've accepted now that, like, I can like Gen Z. It's fine. They're different. They're just, like, throwing out all the stuff that we said and almost just, like, just throwing it out to throw it out. Like, just like, they're annoyed at us as well.

Adam: 01:09:54

Like, you can feel the tension that Gen Z is kind of, like, wants nothing to do with millennial developers in our whole generation. And I that's why I said he would never come on the podcast. Like, we're a couple of millennial developers, I'm sure like

Dax: 01:10:04

Well, he did he did comment on our yacht video and he replied

Adam: 01:10:08

Oh, did he?

Dax: 01:10:09

He did reply and he I think he follows me. He did reply saying, when are Asian people gonna do anything this cool? So

Adam: 01:10:17

Okay. So he doesn't completely have an irreverence towards us as millennials. But I do I feel the, like, the changing of the guard almost. This is so stupid and, like, I don't know, just like pointless to to have these thoughts probably. But like, it was just like waste of time thoughts.

Adam: 01:10:35

But like, I there's something about that gap that it was bridged with this Roy Lee character. I feel like for

Dax: 01:10:41

me Yeah.

Adam: 01:10:42

The whole the whole, like, anonymous crowd of Gen Z devs in Twitter and elsewhere, like, the whole anime face thing, just really had me, like, very annoyed with that group. And this this is the more refreshing take. If he like

Dax: 01:10:59

Yes, I agree.

Adam: 01:11:00

He's like doing be the leader of that.

Dax: 01:11:01

And he's actually doing stuff. Like, the whole anime based thing, they never do anything. They just talk about doing stuff. Yes. He's actually doing stuff.

Adam: 01:11:08

So I had a very bad taste in my mouth. And I feel like he's made me come around on it. And just seeing millennials get upset with him helps me not be upset. Any times people get upset at people, I just get upset at them. So Yeah.

Adam: 01:11:18

Exactly. Yeah. It's helping me feel like I can empathize a little bit.

Dax: 01:11:22

I just find everyone annoying.

Adam: 01:11:23

Yeah. Same.

Dax: 01:11:24

Yeah. Yeah. He's a it's it's funny. But like, I guess I had this thought the other day and I don't again, I'm gonna also acknowledge that I'm obviously heavily heavily biased to believe this, but I'll make a case for it regardless. So there's a prototype of Silicon Valley founder, right?

Dax: 01:11:42

Super young, doesn't care about the system, disruptive, makes a huge impact.

Adam: 01:11:47

A lot

Dax: 01:11:48

of the stories of the big companies of previous generation fit that mold, right? Young, energy, go crazy, do whatever. Mhmm. I'm kinda wondering if there's a completely different explanation for all this stuff, which is they just knew how to use computers. It actually didn't it's not that the fact that they were young, there's something about innately being young.

Dax: 01:12:10

There was just a generational divide at where at some point, they were adults. Some of the adults or most adults did not know anything about using computers. They couldn't naturally, like, think in the internet way, they didn't get any of this. And then there was a generation that did and they happened to be young. And they did extremely well.

Dax: 01:12:28

And that prototype is, like, persisted where Silicon Valley still expects that shape of person to win and like lead in the new disruption, the new companies, whatever. But I think the times are totally different now, where the people that are young aren't competing with people that don't know how use computers. They're competing with people that also know how use computers as well as them and get everything as well as them. They may not get the marketing side as well, but I just I don't see it playing out the same way. And again, I'm I'm obviously biased because I'm more in that latter Yeah.

Dax: 01:13:04

Generation now. But I'm like, yeah, if you go head to head, someone that's like young in their early twenties against someone that's like from like, know, they've already had like a twenty year career in tech, but like as like a startup founder. Mhmm. I have a hard time explaining why the young person would actually like both these groups understand all the same stuff, but the latter one has experience. And I think the world has shifted enough between two generations where it's gonna default to the to the young one again.

Dax: 01:13:33

So I don't I don't know if this shift is actually gonna happen. Like I said, some some stuff on like the marketing and attention side, younger generation understands more natively, but I don't think the other the older generation is is impossible for them to get there.

Adam: 01:13:47

Yeah. Can I can I offer, a way to galaxy brain, like, assignment to Roy Lee? It's this is, like, probably a stretch, this may not be what he's doing, but I just kind of view the whole startup thing as, like, another potential just, like, f you to the system. Like, would it not be perfect for him to raise a ton of money for a bunch of, like, old white men and then just, like, let it flame out and who cares? Just have fun doing it.

Adam: 01:14:11

But, like, it's another like, this is just a stupid institution that has you know what I'm you know what I'm getting at? Like like VC as a concept, just like colleges as a concept? I don't know. Maybe he's maybe he actually has startup dreams, But I would not be surprised if none of that is even the point. And like, he's just having his fun kind of mocking the whole thing.

Dax: 01:14:32

I mean, that that that would be really cool. I think if he was doing that, it would look a little bit more exciting and fun. But Yeah. And so far so far it looks like he's just playing into he's like literally just doing

Adam: 01:14:46

The startup thing?

Dax: 01:14:47

The exact persona of what he thinks he's supposed to be doing as a in the stage that he's in. But yeah, don't know. Like I don't know if these like young founders are really gonna be it, you know. I don't, like I said, I don't see Cursor beating Microsoft. I really don't because it's not like Microsoft is staffed full of people that don't get it.

Dax: 01:15:08

Right. Totally different how it it was back in the day.

Adam: 01:15:11

Big and slow. But once they eventually get there it's gonna be hard for

Dax: 01:15:16

Microsoft And to they're not starting from zero and they have yeah. So it's think it's just different these days and I think it's being a founder I think it's gonna we're gonna see a lot fewer first time founder wins. Like, I just I just don't see how that's possible nowadays.

Adam: 01:15:31

Makes sense. Yassine really needs to not have an anime profile picture because he's a millennial and he just screws the whole thing up.

Dax: 01:15:38

Are you sure this is a non millennial thing? I didn't know that. I didn't under I didn't I didn't think of it that way.

Adam: 01:15:44

I actually don't know. I don't know anything about all the anime profile people because there's nothing to know about them because they're not people. They're just anime profile pictures and they don't actually have it tied to anything in the real world. So maybe they are all I don't know.

Dax: 01:15:57

I think you're I think you're right. Maybe it skews younger, but I said this the other day, have you ever seen them disagree with each other?

Adam: 01:16:04

Don't think so.

Dax: 01:16:05

They all say the exact same things and value the exact same things and like, they kind of talk in the same way. It's like this it's this weird subculture that exists and I don't know if it's an age thing. I think it's like, there's something else Just that's like, bunny them together.

Adam: 01:16:19

Really, really annoying.

Dax: 01:16:21

It's embarrassing. Like, why are you such like a homogenous group of people that all think the exact same way? Mhmm. And it's funny because they're like, one of the things they believe in is they're not they're not that. Yeah.

Dax: 01:16:33

This reminds me of when I visited every time I go to Portland, I had the same thought which is, man, everyone here is so alternative. Like, they dress alternative, they look alternative, but they all look exactly the same. Like, they're the same alternative with each other. Like, it's

Adam: 01:16:48

just Uh-huh.

Dax: 01:16:49

It's like, their identity is alternative, but it's so superficial. Yeah.

Adam: 01:16:54

It's just yeah. Okay. We should get up here.

Dax: 01:16:57

Yeah. This this one was long. Yep.

Adam: 01:17:00

Alright. See you.