Open Source Security Theater
It's it's just not what get into.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not this is not podcast content. Chris, cut this out. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:I need to really badly do a rant.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Do it. That's what this is for. That's what this podcast is.
Speaker 1:I like was writing out a tweet and I was like like a really ranty tweet and I was like holding myself back. So was like, I should probably just like rant about this on the on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Do it. Let's go.
Speaker 1:So we released OpenOff Beta last week or not last week. Damn. Only been what is that? Monday? It's only been a week.
Speaker 1:And it's been really cool. We've gotten like a lot of really great PRs, like a crazy amount of PRs. Like every day I wake up to like five or six PRs that are are definitely Wow. Mergeable. And it's really great because that's kind what we hope for.
Speaker 1:Like we wanted to build a shell of something and the power of open source is to like cover the like a long tail list of something and the community is actually doing that and and helping us there which is which is awesome. But I think it's general enough of a project that I'm getting like a much wider audience of people that are like looking at it. And so I'm attracting some of these like very annoying open source type situations. So it's not what people might imagine. It's not the person demanding a feature.
Speaker 1:I actually don't care about that. Like I'm like I'm I don't find that annoying like someone I know I know that annoys some people and they're like, you don't pay for this but for us it's like a little bit different. I get like, man, I've been struggling the reason I didn't post the tweet is because I'm struggling to find the right insult for it, this type of person. Like, it's like a Karen, it's like a Karen category of person but I feel like it's it's more specific than that. A couple of days ago, I got two issues open being like, do not use JWTs, they're insecure.
Speaker 1:And then there's a second one that was like, do not use local storage, they're insecure. And this person just like linked a bunch of like random ass security articles. Yeah. And their view of things is so binary and whenever it comes to like, I found this anytime you get in the category of like compliance or security or everything, people are so fucking proud to like know the know a rule. They're so proud to know a rule.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't do And then whenever some situation comes up, there's a there's a blanket apply the rule. The rule says you shouldn't do this. So he, you know, he wrote this thing about JWTs not being valid and they're like, you should never use them. But security is not like that and compliance is also not like that. Anyone that actually works in these spaces knows that there's always a spectrum of insecure to extremely secure and then you pick somewhere on that spectrum that balances the security aspect of what you're trying to do with there's always a good product trade off, okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So he wrote this and like as it was a binary thing and it's wrong because like one kind of appealed authority, every single like a bunch of authors and service companies use the exact same model. And there is a very specific trade off and very specific design you'd use to minimize the downsides of it, which is exactly what we did. It didn't factor that out, it just linked a bunch of stuff. So I said like
Speaker 2:Is it is it expiration? Is that the key?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you set the problem with JWTs is the upside is you can verify JWT without calling another server. So it's Mhmm. Really efficient. Like, there's a bunch of good reasons for that.
Speaker 1:But the that exact property, it makes it so someone can't revoke them. So if someone is like, oh, this JWT was leaked, I need to revoke it. Other systems are still gonna keep validating it. They don't know that you flagged it as bad. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And if you try to design some kind of system to like make them check a database first and you've effectively lost all the benefits of a JWT. So the truth what you do is you set the JWT expiration to be really low, like five minutes. And then you also issue a refresh token and the refresh token is not a JWT, that's something that has to be sent to a server to get a new a new access token.
Speaker 2:So that's what the deal with the refresh token is. I've always it's always just in my mind been like, okay, but like you just moved it to a different field called refresh token. Okay.
Speaker 1:So the the the root thing is here, the access token is sent to random places, it's sent to APIs, it's sent to other people.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:The refresh token is never sent anywhere except to the authorization server. So that like moves Okay. That flies around less, so it's theoretically, you know, less exposed. So we we had that model. That way, you know, if you revoke someone's refresh token, they can keep accessing the system for five minutes but after five minutes like their access token will expire and they'll fail to refresh a new one.
Speaker 1:So we did that design, they didn't factor that in at all. So I literally was like, I explained that and then I said, I understand that this is gonna be a continuous problem. This is like a security related thing, so people are gonna come in with these like dumbass binary Mhmm. Payments around this stuff and like confuse people because people don't know. People are gonna see that and they're gonna be like, oh, does that mean it's not secure?
Speaker 1:I wrote like, this is the first we haven't this is the first issue of this so I'm not gonna like do anything off of this but I'm updating our code of conduct being like, if you are here to report a security issue, I put it in in quotes, security issue, you must report it in these terms. You need to say, I see that the design is a and it was probably chosen because it has these benefits and it has these downsides and here's how it's currently mitigated. But I think it's not it doesn't go far far enough. If you don't phrase it like that, I'm just gonna flat out close the issue because you're not here to actually contribute, you're just here to like get someone on some kind of rule. So I find that extremely annoying.
Speaker 1:So I wrote this code of conduct. It's only two things I put in there. I was like, it's two points. It says reporting security issues, I say like, if it's security issue like, you know, don't post it publicly, message me and if we don't respond this amount of time then you can just go disclose it publicly in case there's like some kind of hold exploit. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then number two, I wrote reporting security issues in quotations. And I was like, you're likely reporting a not really a security issue like, you know, please phrase it in this way so we know that you've actually done your research. Yeah. So I wrote that. Okay, great.
Speaker 1:I think this problem solved. And today I wake up. I get another PR. Fix code of conduct. That's the title PR.
Speaker 1:And it's like, in in this PR message it says, the code of conduct is very bad. It's it should not be used for these type of things. Then they copy paste it just like some generic ass code of conduct like, we think you should be a good person. Like, please do not like discriminate someone by their gender or it's just all that dumbass legal crap that is just infiltrating every single corner of the world of just people being like, please be a good person and then they list out like all these really shallow stupid ways of what a good person is.
Speaker 2:Like Oh, man.
Speaker 1:What the fuck does this have to do with an authentication library? I deleted the thing that I the actual thing that's gonna come up, that stuff that I wrote and they and they submitted this PR. And beyond this just being really stupid, like me not liking the actual approach, what the hell is wrong with people? You have no history with this project. I don't even think you're a user of this project.
Speaker 1:You haven't contributed any code, you haven't contributed any examples. You are literally a random person that just drove by and was like, I have an opinion on how this project should be run. He's a random ass person, like no tie to the project at all. So I was like Yeah. This is so fucking annoying and this is the type of stuff in open source that like never gets talked about.
Speaker 1:The cliche thing is like, like overly demanding user which like I said is annoying but at least they're like using your thing and like giving you data points on how to like fix stuff. Yeah. This is just people being bored and being like, I'm gonna insert myself into this and like teach other people how to be a good person. And I just can't stand it. So annoying.
Speaker 2:That's not fun. I'm seeing your point of view on all that so much more clearly. I think I I just I have this thing where, like, if someone wants to take charge and set rules and be authoritative, I will follow. And I get tossed around a lot because, I don't know, they sounded like they know what they're talking about, and they said we should do this. We should name our branches main instead of master.
Speaker 2:I saw that in the GitHub repo the other day, like, where it was, like, renamed or it was some big flag that, like, this was renamed, and I just remembered that whole era, and it's like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow. That was a lot of toil. And, like, does anyone really care? I don't know. Maybe they do, but it just feels like, yeah, there's a group of people that just really wanna look like they care is how I would describe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's just like what's all that's going on here is you're trying to like make yourself look like a good person and you are wasting people's times. Like it it is really really frustrating.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. I I just saw a video this morning. Well, maybe everyone in the world did because I think Elon retweeted it. Does Elon do Elon's tweets just show up on everybody's timeline? I don't know if I follow
Speaker 1:him, did. But
Speaker 2:So Okay. Well, need to do that because he tweets a lot. But he retweeted this video about recycling, and I don't know who the source of this video is.
Speaker 1:Don't know. Recycling is mean, assuming it's that thing where, like, we just set up this whole fake system to make ourselves feel better Yeah. And we're it just all goes into yeah. I think that's
Speaker 2:I I didn't realize how fake recycling is. I'm a diligent recycler. I didn't realize I was doing it just to feel good about myself, but I guess I was. And apparently, you can't recycle plastic. Like, basically, not possible.
Speaker 2:I mean, it just doesn't or at least not practical.
Speaker 1:So it's a very, very tiny percentage of it actually gets recycled and then we have this complicated ass system of recycling and it probably has like a big financial cost like
Speaker 2:Yeah. And environmental cost. It's kind of ironic, like, some of the details around it. And again, there could be counterpoints. Maybe there are things that are good to recycle.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Like A lot of
Speaker 1:it just shipped to other countries too. Like, lot of it just gets dumped into into landfills in other countries.
Speaker 2:They just dump plastic in the ocean? I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:I thought it was, like, plastic in the ocean. What?
Speaker 2:What's that? No. Like, people other countries just literally, like, every minute, a a truckload of plastic is dumped into the ocean as in this video.
Speaker 1:Through proper channels or just like a company randomly trying to dispose of waste and there's no, like, enforcement of
Speaker 2:I don't know. The the part of the video is talking about how we ship all this plastic to other countries, and then those countries in turn either burn it or dump it in the ocean, which is both bad both bad things to do, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. The the plastic thing's interesting too because, like, I I listened to a big thing about microplastics, and it's like, basically, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2:Everywhere we've ever looked, there's microplastics. It's everywhere. And, like, there's no escaping it at this point. We're just kinda all filled with and covered in microplastics. TBD if that matters.
Speaker 2:I don't know. But basically, like, all the uproar about plastic is just kind of like, it's too late. There's plastic.
Speaker 1:I just don't understand how we can produce so much of it. Like, everything is covered in plastic. I'm like I'm like imagining, like, okay, how much oil does this take? Like is it like one drop of oil you can like stretch it into a bag? Like is that how it works?
Speaker 2:How are
Speaker 1:so we much of it and this is the cheapest container? And I think about how like, you know, I don't know, back in I don't know when pre plastic era was like. But whenever I watch like Mad Men or like a show that takes place in the sixties, like, it's just not anywhere and everything just looks so nice. Like everything just looks so much better.
Speaker 2:I know. I do wish it didn't exist. I mean, I don't know. I'm I'm have to question all of my motives why I say or think things like plastic is bad after learning that you can't even recycle plastic. I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's like Yeah. I do think there's something about I I try to avoid, like, when we buy toys for the kids, we try to buy stuff that lasts longer. I think the plastic era just kind of sucks. Everything's so shitty and plastic.
Speaker 1:Except for Legos.
Speaker 2:Legos is true. They're plastic, and they're great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Some things look nice.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about a I just had a thought this morning about plastic, about building a giant keyboard, like maybe the world's largest. I wonder if we could get, like, a keycap manufacturer like GMK to, like, be excited about molding giant
Speaker 1:Like a giant one? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I thought, how much plastic, how much ABS or whatever plastic would it take to create, like, keycaps as big as a chair? Like, that would be a lot of plastic. And then I just went down a whole trail of, like, how how could you even type on that keyboard? Well, if everyone was standing on a key and you had little, like, headphones where it beeped when they need to jump, you could type.
Speaker 2:Sorry. This this is all
Speaker 1:Well, I was I was thinking, like, what if we made out of wood?
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. There we go. Just like an entire forest cut down probably. But, like, I guess that happens every minute anyway. It's renewable, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can't plant another tree.
Speaker 2:Oh, the world's so complicated. I don't know how to feel. Oh. Tell me how to feel, Max.
Speaker 1:I don't know. The plastic thing is crazy. But yeah, just this whole just all the towers we build to make ourselves feel better in a not real way.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:There's so much of that.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like a TSA, how it's security theater.
Speaker 1:TSA is perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like when I heard that term.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I have mixed feelings about this.
Speaker 2:Well, I was just thinking as I thought through that example too, and can I say it before you do? Because then it'll just sound like
Speaker 1:I copied you because you're smart.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Well, the it has to catch some things. Like, literally, metal detectors. Everybody has to go through a metal detector.
Speaker 2:They scan the bags. I'm sure they miss stuff, but it can't be a zero ad kind of thing. That was my thought.
Speaker 1:Keep going. Okay. My thought's smarter.
Speaker 2:Oh, damn it. Of course it is. I should have left my dumb thought in my brain so I couldn't be ridiculed.
Speaker 1:I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:Couldn't be.
Speaker 1:Okay. So Well, I think what people point to is when they run tests, people often get through. Like, when they like test them without telling them and they try to say something, they often get through. But I think there is an aspect to it stopping stuff that from before somebody even tries. Right?
Speaker 2:Like Like they won't try because they know they definitely do TSC and it's too scary.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Like, I think a lot of stuff is like opportunistic when you see that there's a very specific gap, you're like more willing to try it. Mhmm. So if it was just like a chill process, like, there might just be more people that are gonna try. So it might just stop stuff happening before they do.
Speaker 1:Just like having a lock on a gate, even if it's not like literally locked and someone walks by, like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That'll probably prevent someone from they can just unlock and get in if they wanted to, but it probably solves a bunch of opportunistic things from from happening.
Speaker 2:Just the littlest barrier can be like a huge barrier, basically. Yeah. There's a principle around that or something. Right? On the It's Fucking Windows or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Something. Know. I just like that as a principle.
Speaker 1:Proto Proto is a good guess because that applies to, like, literally everything in the world. So Okay.
Speaker 2:If it's yeah. I just I started realizing, like, I think I like TSA. I would feel pretty bad. Is it security theater if I would really feel pretty bad if it didn't exist and I just got on a plane with everybody else off the street?
Speaker 1:Okay. So my issue with the TSA, and this is changing because have you seen those new machines, those crazy like circular
Speaker 2:It looks like a jet
Speaker 1:engine? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Okay. So my issue historically with the TSA is every time you show up, it's a random process. It's like, today, we're doing Yeah. Laptops in bag. It's fine.
Speaker 1:Don't take any laptops. Okay. Next week, we're doing laptops out of bag. Yeah. I think it's always related to how busy they are.
Speaker 1:And I'm just like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I don't care if this is a complicated process. Just tell me like, I wanna know what it is so I can just do it every time instead of being like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:What this time? Do I take off my shoes? Do I take off my my jacket?
Speaker 2:Do you have to say, Pri?
Speaker 1:No, I don't.
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 1:I just I just I typically don't I just typically it's not that I don't like flying, I just don't travel much. So I just never felt worth it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's what I'm mean, you don't like traveling is what I really meant. Like, you don't like to leave your home.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That said, I traveled a lot this year so it kind of would have been worth it
Speaker 2:but It's really worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That but that said, these new machines are great because don't have do anything. Just drop your bag in, go. Same thing every single time. So whenever I'm flying out of New York, which has this and some terminals in Miami have this too, great process.
Speaker 1:Oh, more of those machines, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The the the security thing is so funny. I at one point, I was flying a lot, like three, four times a week just for like a few months. It was a fundraising era. And I got the clear thing at the beginning of the stretch.
Speaker 2:I knew I was gonna
Speaker 1:be fine.
Speaker 2:Back then, this was
Speaker 1:And I I know what you're talking I know what you're gonna say. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You feel like such an asshole, but it was amazing. They walk you right up in front of everybody and like hand you off. But now it's like the clear line is as long as the TSA Pre line. And it's it's kind of funny, like, business models like that where, like, it's only good until you're really successful and then nobody gets anything out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. It's like then they're gonna have clear plus plus or something. And it's like because I I've also even seen the TSA PreCheck like I mean, that one, they check you less so it it's always gonna move faster.
Speaker 2:It's faster.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Seen a lot of people
Speaker 2:But it's a huge line, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then sometimes like the airport's busy and they redirect everyone to the same way.
Speaker 2:Should it be an auction and like you bid to get to the front of the line? Like, what's the highest bid right now? We got a $156, this asshole from New York. I keep cursing. I ever since I said I don't sound normal cursing, I just keep trying.
Speaker 1:I mean, think it sounds good. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, I'll keep Yeah.
Speaker 1:I clear still feels worth it's definitely like on the cusp of like it's maybe only saving you a handful of minutes, but Yeah. It still feels like it's not completely useless, but there hasn't
Speaker 2:super time pretentious. It's a nice feeling. Like, I'm better than all
Speaker 1:of you. I don't feel good in those situations. I feel like any moment some that like the wealth gap in America is gonna reach some breaking point and then my people are gonna burst out of that line and like murder me. That's how I feel. There's I
Speaker 2:there are things in that vein not specifically clear, but I definitely have that growing sense of dread that having money will bite us all eventually. The the trajectory we're on. I don't know. Some guy was murdered in the street in New York. I'm not some guy.
Speaker 2:A CEO, a person with money. That happened. And I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think society always needs to be at its perfect tension zone and then it it like it recorrects through situations like that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of thoughts on that about like, the murder and it being like good or bad. Like, obviously, murder is like immoral and like, it's a bad thing. But I think the interesting part is, like, all rural society, they're all like enforced by violence effectively. Like, the reason I don't go and murder someone is because the government is like, I will violently take you and put you in a box if you do
Speaker 2:that. I
Speaker 1:think the, like, equilibrium we reach is if society is generally doing well enough, that threat of that government violence keeps most people in check. If the government gets too oppressive, what happens is that threat is like not that bad compared to the day to day conditions and you will have these like, these situations happen where people like make that trade off. They're like, I'm just gonna commit violence because stuff is so bad that I'm not really afraid of the punishment. And you see this a lot with like like rioting. I think this this topic comes up a lot.
Speaker 1:They're like, it's bad to loot. Right? We all agree, like, it's bad to like smash open Mhmm. A store and steal stuff. You're not doing anything for a cause, you're not like just like you being selfish in that moment.
Speaker 1:But from a systemic point of view, like, it's almost good that some percentage of people do that because it's like a feedback mechanism to the government. Like, you can't if you like start to like go over the line, like, yes, we have a democracy but like, even in democracy, the governments can go over the line and things, you'd have to deal with all these random things happening like someone murdering someone or someone, you know, looting spurs. So on individual level, it's like, yeah, like that's a wrong thing to do. But from like a system from a system point of view, like it's all like enforced through violence in some ways, so Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Do you think so could you spell it out for me in this case, what's the feedback or who's the feedback to? To CEOs?
Speaker 1:Not CEOs in general, just they're like, it's clear that the state of our healthcare system is continuing Oh, healthcare. Continue to degrade. And yeah, it's just I think people struggle to hold both things in their head. My myself included, it's like, it's wrong to murder someone, 100%. Like I'm not endorsing the murder at all and like that person who did that should go to jail.
Speaker 1:That doesn't mean that like everything's fine. Like,
Speaker 2:oh Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1:You know, that was technically wrong, so everything's fine. It just means that what we should look at is, wow, stuff is getting so bad that we're getting these types of things popping up where someone is not afraid of going to jail for life Yeah. To like, you know, push forward this cause. And that's the type of stuff that like I think it does serve as a data point to the whole system and I'm sure like every healthcare CEO is like really freaked out now.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Oh, sure.
Speaker 1:If a CEO I or involved in an insurance company, you I would be really freaked out. And like how far I push might be tempered a little bit now. Do
Speaker 2:do you think there's like a what's the word I'm looking for? Like, is is this a thing that could catch, like, wildfire? Is it contagious?
Speaker 1:I am worried about that. Like, I didn't know like, copycat stuff happens all the time, and that would be pretty bad.
Speaker 2:So maybe this is a dramatically but how did the French Revolution happen? I don't know anything about history. Like, is it that kind of vibe where it's like it's about wealth disparity, it's about the conditions of health care in America, and, like, eventually just like the lower takeover the upper through violence. Is that kind of what happened?
Speaker 1:I I think historically that's been like the pattern. It's been a ruling class and everyone else and there's been moments where everyone else had it good enough that they weren't willing to literally raise their lives to kill the ruling class. And as soon as that Mhmm. Equilibrium is is breaks, like, that's kind of what happens. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think the reason America is really really successful is because it's a democracy where at least you feel, even if things aren't great, at least you feel like you have some amount of control over who the who the leader is. And just that feeling is enough to prevent these like rebellious moments which leads to stability, leads to a good system. So it's not literally the fact that like we're electing good leaders, it's just a fact that we're not dealing with this cycle of like, bad leader, rebel group comes up, you know, kills bad leader. Now Yeah. The rebel leader is a leader and then he also becomes bad and then it just like loops over and over and over.
Speaker 2:Yes. So do you think but do you you don't think that there's a tipping point that could happen in America where we do resort to
Speaker 1:I I mean, there's so many mitigating factors. There's just a reality that, like, quality of life Yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess the riots. I mean, there's been a lot of rioting in the last three or four years. Right? Five Yeah. Ten years.
Speaker 2:I don't know. My context is all thrown off. But I know there was an era where it was really common. Maybe it the last election cycle.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it just comes down to quality of life. Like, if people's quality of life is good, that's just always a mitigating factor, like, they're willing to deal with. Okay. So if it's imperfect, but, you know, I have a pretty decent life.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna throw it all away to go after this.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. It's basic psychology from like an individual household standpoint. Like, if you're doing okay and that's the question, I guess. Does anyone keep track of the average or like the number of people who would say, I'm not doing okay. And I am kind of done with it.
Speaker 2:And I am willing to because you hear those kind of things on the Internet that like things are bad, but like for how many people and and what is that point where? Is this a stupid question? Is this a dumb conversation? Is there nothing to be said about this?
Speaker 1:The answer is just it's like it's not really what people say, it's what people do. Yeah. So that you're always gonna have two forces. You're gonna have I mean, both forces are always trying to get as there's a, you know, people more in power than people less in power. And both sides are trying to get away with as much as possible and we land at some point.
Speaker 1:And the reality is this quality of life compared to like a hundred years ago is like outrageous even though it sucks in a lot of ways, like, it like, you know, tempers people a ton. Different when you're like, literally don't have any food and you like, live outside, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's that Rational Optimist book. It's like, as much as people want to complain about things that aren't great, they're so much better than they were.
Speaker 1:So by and large, like how many people can you imagine literally being like, I'm gonna go, like commit terrorism effectively?
Speaker 2:I mean, I
Speaker 1:don't know about Everything. So I don't know. I don't have
Speaker 2:a pulse on this stuff.
Speaker 1:I'd say, okay, like like imagine how bad it would have to be for like a significant group of people to be like Yeah. I'm willing to risk myself, my family, everything around me That's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:For this type of thing. I'm not saying it can happen but and the point is like, when it does happen in these situations, it's like a data point back into the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there there was another there's kind of a tangential thing that I forgot about which was like all the murmuring of like this election cycle, like, we're ready for civil war. This is gonna happen. I haven't seen any militia people walking down the streets. Did it it didn't happen, I guess?
Speaker 2:No civil war?
Speaker 1:We're free? Who's to say depending on if somebody else won? But people are like people love role playing also. It's actually just the same as this person who's been in this PR. Really, it's it's the exact same psychology.
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 1:They have this identity and they like just wanna live it. They wanna live in this fantasy where they
Speaker 2:like I feel like submitting a PR is a little different than walking around with like a rifle. I feel like there's a there's a different psychology there but
Speaker 1:I'm saying it's the same exact thing. Really? It's like it's it's all like an identity thing, right? It's they like they're actually romanticizing a civil war effectively. Like it's not really about like, no one is pushed to the point of like, actually, like the thing I was talking about before, like actually throwing it all away.
Speaker 1:They're kind of fantasizing about like, you know, the concept of like we could do a civil war. Like, he'll be one of the people that like rebels to And
Speaker 2:then when there are kind of like isolated isolated incidents, it's because enough people were fantasizing and walking around with their it escalated. Like, they were all in their military garb and then eventually somebody provoked somebody enough. Because there are things that happen, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Think it can go both ways. Think, yes, some of those are just like stupid escalations. Some of them but I'm not gonna say all, like I'm sure maybe some of them are just someone who's pushed to a point where they're like, I don't care. This is I'm like not gonna, you know, I'm I'm down to throw it all away.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I I do think that Civil War thing is like a little like there's like a weird romantic the people when people talk about it, it's like really romantic. So I I it's to me, it doesn't feel like it's coming from a
Speaker 2:It's a weird thing to be
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's a funny thing, like, being a romantic person, you can do this in like so many different aspects of life. So it's not like what people would imagine, oh, the type of person that's romantic is like this. But a lot of like very stereotypically Like, if you imagine a stereotype of someone that's like walking around with a rifle like thinking about civil war, you have a stereotype image of their head. That person is often like a very romantic person.
Speaker 1:They tend to romanticize like the way life life works and the way things are.
Speaker 2:Okay. I I want to break this down because this is the thing I've said about myself and I I've hoped in the last few months as I've tried to work on myself through my marriage situation and all that. I've hoped that maybe it is possible I could be I could have some semblance of romance in my life. I've always said I have no romantic bone in my body. Like, that's just not a thing I have.
Speaker 2:Is that a personality trait? What do you know about romance? Tell me, Dax. Look into my eyes and tell me.
Speaker 1:I think from knowing you, I would say you're probably not a very romantic person.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm not. I just said that. You don't have to rub it in.
Speaker 1:I'm saying I think your assessment is correct. It's not like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I can see what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Is it a thing you can learn or grow into or is it just part of your kind of like identity?
Speaker 1:I don't I don't know. It's and again, just
Speaker 2:Are you a romantic person?
Speaker 1:Just to be yeah. I think I think so. Oh, interesting. I tend to fantasize a lot and like view things in very like dramatic, like movie like ways. And again, just to be clear, when I say romantic, it's not like related to like, you know, a relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Not just relationship. It kinda like permeates everything. Like it's
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:You have a romantic view of the world and of life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I would say definitely I'm not like the most, but it's like clear that I am to some degree. Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm dramatic. It's different than dramatic though, right?
Speaker 1:I think that's close. I think if you're dramatic, it's oftentimes can be if if you feel like you're dramatic, then you probably can be romantic also. I feel like it's very close to each other. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 1:Do you ever view normal situations? Normal ish, like, a situation that's exciting, do you like really lean into depicting it in like the most dramatic extreme way possible?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. Don't I'm really bad at hypotheticals or like remembering anything in my life. So this is gonna be a struggle.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I I guess you know better
Speaker 2:than than I do about my personality. You've seen me on Twitch or something. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay. Let's say you're starting a company and it is going up against like an incumbent. Let's say you're starting a very disruptive
Speaker 2:It's going against Starbucks, something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, do you picture this are you someone that just like are just like, yeah, yeah, we're starting again. You kind of look at it in a in a clear cut straightforward way or do parts of you imagine this like really like epic battle between you being tiny against this giant thing and it feels like So
Speaker 2:I don't even think I had considered that either of my startups has any competitors. That's funny. I definitely never think about them if they are. Yeah. I mean, they're pretty weird not startups.
Speaker 2:Talking Yeah. Well, but like real startups that I've started, I feel like I could just go to that real data and say that I've never once thought about taking down an incumbent. And there probably are incumbents. I just I wouldn't even
Speaker 1:No. I I think I I don't think yeah. I I think first that muses I
Speaker 2:got distracted, didn't I? That was not the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was not the point. But
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm just
Speaker 1:trying to think of scenarios that you might be able to imagine. But yeah. I mean, it just sounds like you're you're not, but like, why why do you feel like you need to learn it? It's just like a random property of a person, you
Speaker 2:know? It's not like it's not like my wife needs it. She knows this about me. She's always known this about me. It's just kind of like a thing in life I thought I wasn't able to have, and maybe I could have it.
Speaker 2:Maybe it adds a layer to life that would be nice. That's the thought. Not that I have to have it. It's just I always thought it was off limits, so it just wasn't part of my personality or something. And then I just started wondering maybe part of my personality is broken, and I need to fix it, and I'll have some things I didn't think I could have after I fix Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so hard to know what I I struggle I think about this all the time. Like, I don't think about very many things a lot, but I think about personality. Like, what is my personality and what is just the parts of me that are super fucked up because of my past or whatever, trauma, whatever, brain chemistry.
Speaker 1:Did did Liz tell you about this philosopher that she's super into? He's like a I'm gonna say philosopher, but he's like a just a modern day person. He's alive writing. I forgot his name. I think he might be Korean.
Speaker 1:I forgot I forgot what it is. But what you're saying reminded me because as she mentioned to me the other day, Adam really needs to read his stuff.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:you're not gonna like it, but I think it is the perfect explanation of everything that you're going through.
Speaker 2:Really? Well, I would like that. That would be very nice. Please send it to me.
Speaker 1:Let let me ask her right now. Yeah. What is that philosopher guy?
Speaker 2:Because I'd love if she could tell us. Could you just yell Liz, come in here. Come here. Because I'd love to, like, bring up this person's name. I just love when we talk about stuff on the podcast and I get, like, five DMs, and it's like, hey, if you like him, you should check out this guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's amazing. Thank you for all the things you guys send me, like movie recommendations.
Speaker 1:Can you check Slack? I sent you a message.
Speaker 2:You guys are hilarious. Honey, check Slack. It's funny. Wait. Do you what do you just call Liz Liz?
Speaker 2:Do you have any pet names for each other?
Speaker 1:I just don't call her. I have this thing. I think we talked about this before. I don't like, like, saying people's names. It's it's just
Speaker 2:I don't need anyone ever. I just never say anyone's name.
Speaker 1:It's not that. I just for some reason, I try to avoid I don't know what it is. Something about it feels weird. Like,
Speaker 2:Does say he have any pet names for you? I don't know if pet names is the weird way to put this. Any nicknames?
Speaker 1:Funny because I I guess we don't. I don't think we do.
Speaker 2:It's okay. I have gone through a few. And as part of our separation and reuniting, we've decided to come up with new ones, new era, new pet names. It's always hard because you keep calling them the old ones.
Speaker 1:Hard to force it too. It's it's better when it comes Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm trying a few actually, and we'll see which one sticks. Is she is she checking Slack? Or
Speaker 1:I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna go back. Oh, She responded. Biong She's
Speaker 2:not behind you taking photos behind the scenes.
Speaker 1:Biong. Chul Han.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. Three body problem all over again. Never heard of that. When you listen to me on Slack. Hey, I've to me on Liz.
Speaker 2:Check Slack.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna okay. I don't know where to post this, like, because I because Chris needs to see it too. I'm just gonna post it in a DM with him.
Speaker 2:The tomorrow yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mhmm. Byung Chul Han.
Speaker 2:Good try.
Speaker 1:Okay. Now that we know his name
Speaker 2:What Can you give me the the just a brief synopsis of what I'm gonna find?
Speaker 1:So I've only ever heard what Liz explained to me. Like, what what she's read his stuff and she's like told me what he's about. I personally feel like I have been saying all this for a lot a long time. So I'm like Mhmm. Hey, why don't you give credit for it?
Speaker 2:I haven't listened. Or you mean with with her
Speaker 1:Well, mean, it's obvious obviously, it's I've like casually thought about this here and there. This person obviously has went way deeper and probably expresses it in like a much more clear
Speaker 2:Pro book.
Speaker 1:Convincing way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1:So his whole thing is about how much we have nothing to focus on, so we introspect infinitely. And it sounds like a very cliche very cliche thing, but the way he expressed it and the way the points that he makes are are very good and it's like a very well well thought out process of it. It's kind what I was talking about earlier. Our quality of life is actually extremely extremely high. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And there is just infinite things in the world to introspect and micro analyze every little thing about yourself. And that in itself is the torture, it's not the stuff that's wrong with you.
Speaker 2:So if we were all just trying to like find food to live another day, we wouldn't probably be thinking about whether we're bipolar or I mean, maybe that's a that's a specific example for me. We wouldn't be trying to figure out if I don't know. Whatever we just were talking about. If I'm a romantic or not. Like, I'm just trying to live.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's it's like it's not that it just it just like a, again, a spectrum, right? There's like, a lot of these problems are mag are are actually there. You know, there are things that it's not like it's completely fake, but oftentimes, like, you're we're actually feeding it by trying to understand and solve it. And it doesn't have to go to the extreme of us literally being starving, there's just like, you know, we've just hit this weird threshold of just stuff displacing other stuff and then new stuff is like just pulling you deeper and deeper and deeper into into this kind of thing.
Speaker 2:It makes sense through the lens. Like if I look at the pipeline of like young professionals that get to a place where they're doing pretty good. Their standard of living is above average, and then they start listening to Huberman and taking ice baths. You know what I mean? To get pretty specific.
Speaker 2:The there's also, like, the I've thought about this the other day. This is I'm jumping all over the place. But there is a software dev kind of pipeline where software developers get paid really well. You work for, a decade, and you're probably doing pretty well if you've been working in The US in particular. And then you start getting on YouTube and making YouTube videos.
Speaker 2:And then then you start a coffee company or whatever. Like, there's like a pipeline of software dev to senior software dev to buys a camera and it's like undefeated. Hence, the podcast that we are talking about right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's just not that deep of a field, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, so I mean, he talks about like he goes across everything and it's like, I think it's a very good analysis of what's going on.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And the reason I said, you know, people aren't gonna like it is because it's not it's like people are looking for the answer but the answer is like stop asking the question.
Speaker 2:Stop looking for the answer. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah. So I think it's like I said, I feel like we just are so focused on ourselves like we're at like peak me, is my life, what are my feelings, like what should I be eating, how should I be living, like it's just like so crazy and it's I think that's a lot of reasons why people are, you know, struggling in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:So so I totally resonate with all that. I'm excited to dig into this guy's stuff. The one question I have just off the top is and I don't I don't know how to say this without sounding well, I'm just gonna say it. Casey, if you're listening, I'm sorry. If I didn't have a relationship, if I was alone in the world, I don't think I'd think about myself one bit.
Speaker 2:I would just be coasting, I think everything would be really easy. At the same time, I'd probably live a pretty shallow existence for other reasons, related reasons. Just my personality is such that, like, I would get obsessed with my work or something and just be obsessed with that thing until I died. Because I'm in a relationship, that's where I feel like I really am digging into all these other things, trying to figure out how to make the relationship better to give this other person what they need in the relationship. That's where all my self introspection comes.
Speaker 2:It's like, I want to be the person that is worthy of this relationship that she is getting what she needs out of it. Otherwise and and main the main problem that she has in our relationship is that I don't think about these things at all. That's why I'm trying to think about them so hard. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But what's funny is this guy's entire point is people don't know how to build relationships. So in both those scenarios, you are it's like it's even if you're alone, you're still feeling a better relationship. So he he kind of diagnosed that as being the root. And you you might not be introspecting in the same way as you are now, but you probably are living a very like self focused life and it like might manifest in in in different ways.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So I think his root thing is all about like just we just don't know how to have normal relationships.
Speaker 2:Is there is in his stuff, is there an antidote besides just stop stop doing it?
Speaker 1:I'm sure there I'm sure there is. But I think with a lot of this stuff, it's like
Speaker 2:Like alternatives, things I could do with my time?
Speaker 1:We just have these habits and ways of looking at things. By the way, I say we, I just mean like just world in general. I think everyone struggles with it in different different points. I've told you before, I reached a point where I'm like, I'm done. Like, I'm like fully baked.
Speaker 1:And a lot of those instincts kind of kind of went away. But yeah, I think I think just really understanding what he's saying and like really buying it and like having that realization is probably what what fixes things. I don't think there's like, here's what should be doing instead. It's just kind of admitting that this is what's actually going on. Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I will is it a book? Is it papers?
Speaker 1:I don't I'm sure there's like YouTube stuff Okay. That YouTube stuff. On on him and I I don't know. Like I said, I haven't I haven't actually consumed any of his stuff. It's just stuff that I've been told by Liz.
Speaker 1:But she's a She thinks he's very very good.
Speaker 2:Does Liz have my problem? Does she just look at herself and her stuff unlike you?
Speaker 1:I think I think historically, yes, just like everyone else and like it's changed over time and she's has done that less. Yeah, like said, everyone's just at a different point. Yeah. But like I said, the world is built to teach you to literally do that all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, the world is always telling you that you should be doing this. Yeah. And people you want to feel like you're not impacted by that, but we literally all
Speaker 2:are. Yeah. Okay. I have so many thoughts. My brain just went to like four different things at once and I don't know if I want to say any of them.
Speaker 2:I tried coming back to Twitter.
Speaker 1:I liked it. It was funny.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's good for me. Just don't know if it's good for me. I'm on the fence. Is blue sky better?
Speaker 1:It's your vibe on Twitter is like for the most part, except when you like start to like apologize a bunch. But a
Speaker 2:lot of
Speaker 1:the times, you just post something and it just it just feels so it just feels like you just do not care about anyone, which is great. I think it's a great way
Speaker 2:to I mean, I yeah, don't care about anyone on Twitter.
Speaker 1:But like, what part do you feel like is bad for
Speaker 2:you? I think it's the consuming stuff. I think it's when I start scrolling
Speaker 1:It's write only. Twitter's write only.
Speaker 2:I know. That's the problem. Like, all my tweets are just me being really annoyed about something I just saw on Twitter and responding to it. That's basically
Speaker 1:That's fine. That's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Except the part where it's a reflection that like, wait, why do I get on a thing that I'm just annoyed every time I get on Yeah. Like That's fair. Maybe if I just cut that part out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I had a ride only Twitter client where I could just dump my random thoughts, that'd be kind
Speaker 1:of fun.
Speaker 2:Why has somebody made this? Has anyone made this? I feel like it should be
Speaker 1:Unless you do that with Blue Sky since you can't actually build stuff like that. Well, actually, no, you can do write only Twitter if you do it through like buffer or something.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. One of those apps.
Speaker 1:Okay. So for me, I want here's what I want and maybe I'll actually take the time to do this. I want a thing that lets me write and see replies. I'm okay reading replies to my stuff. But I think I I I'm the same where I I kind of agree with you.
Speaker 1:I just don't wanna read.
Speaker 2:So I I would like that plus white list of the people I wanna see their tweets.
Speaker 1:Oh, you have control over that already. It's you don't have self control. That's all of us. Right? We have we have a way to control
Speaker 2:do I do that?
Speaker 1:We could just follow a small set of people and just look at the following tab. But we all don't do that because we don't have self control.
Speaker 2:The following tab is bad because I'm following people that I'm quote unquote friends with. It's a social dynamic. It's not actually like, I wanna follow these people. Just unfollow them, Adam. It would be so hard and painful.
Speaker 2:But then, I just I hate when I get on Twitter, when I look at somebody's profile and they follow like 26 people. I'm like, you jerk. Just socialize.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't think that at all, ever.
Speaker 2:Really? Okay.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'm I'm gonna I opened my app right now and just randomly unfollow 10 people. That's what I wanna do. Every day, it's gonna be like a Russian roulette.
Speaker 2:You're really gonna do that?
Speaker 1:A total down to a 100.
Speaker 2:Don't randomly unfollow somebody you It's actually care
Speaker 1:really random.
Speaker 2:You know? That's a slap in the face. Every time you unfollow someone, you are literally slapping them in the face. That's what I think.
Speaker 1:I have the perfect solution for you. You say every day you're gonna unfollow five people randomly, but it's not random. You just pick. But you say it's random. That's a perfect cover.
Speaker 2:I can, like, absolve myself of the the guilt and shame and feeling like I hurt people's feelings. It's it's dumb. I should just yeah. If I just followed like 30 people and I could just read your tweets, that would be that would be good. But there'd be so much stress around well, there'd be so much stress around who deciding who gets to be in my feed.
Speaker 1:It doesn't even have to be 30. It just has to be just just unfollow people's stuff that you don't like seeing. It's that simple.
Speaker 2:I don't even know who I follow anymore.
Speaker 1:Maybe later.
Speaker 2:Okay. Because I tried the following tab for a bit and it just gets so dominated. If somebody wakes up and they're sitting on the toilet
Speaker 1:That's me.
Speaker 2:Post like 25 times.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's me. That's literally me.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, well, the following tab is just Dax this morning. So that's what I get on the following past it. Okay. Fine. I gotta figure it out because I do think there's something to like it's the only place I interact with most of my friends, so I don't wanna just not be on the platform.
Speaker 2:But I don't wanna just be annoyed all the time because I'm seeing the news of the day and people being dumb. In my opinion, they're not being dumb. They're just doing something I don't like. But I do stuff they don't like, so it's all it it balances out.
Speaker 1:I feel like I don't see that much annoying stuff on Twitter.
Speaker 2:Really? I I feel like my feed turned and maybe it's I might be on the for you tab, but I feel like it just turned into like any post that has over like a thousand likes just shows up on my feed.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. No. No. No. Okay.
Speaker 1:So the for you tab, yes. I'm saying in my following tab, don't I know. Oh, you
Speaker 2:just follow You just look at your following tab? Is that what you
Speaker 1:No, I don't. I look at my for you tab also because I don't have any self control like anyone else.
Speaker 2:Do you do you feel like you get annoyed on Twitter? Yeah. Surely you do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 2:When you're better than everybody, you must get even more annoyed.
Speaker 1:I know. Annoyed. Really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That sounds tough.
Speaker 1:I definitely do, but it's mostly the people replying to me. Mhmm. Big dumb people
Speaker 2:replying Well, you to can that too, you know. Just don't tweet. Nobody nobody nobody replies when you don't tweet. Or when you tweet the dumbest stuff in the world, no one replies to that either. Vouch.
Speaker 2:Okay. Anyway, I don't wanna talk about Twitter anymore. Let's talk about something else. Yeah. Come up with something.
Speaker 1:How how's the API stuff going?
Speaker 2:Good. I I'm surprised actually that I was able to let my hair down and have this podcast episode go because everything is splayed out on the operating table, and I'm trying to finish it today before the weekend. It's it's a gigantic effort. Turns out our API, pretty bad. We wanna make it public.
Speaker 2:Well, it's pretty bad. We don't wanna do that right now. But, okay, let's talk API design real quick because maybe somebody will DM me, and I'll get some useful stuff here about you should do this. Just don't say JSON API, please. Here's the thing.
Speaker 1:I love JSON API for the record.
Speaker 2:It's actually so hard to, like, have a consistent API that has a nice open AI open API document and all the responses match the responses in the document. Like, because you have this layer of tools. We have, like, four or five different tools at play and, like, oh, well, that one turns out it's got a middleware that just randomly intercepts certain errors and responds in certain ways, and they don't match our OpenAPI spec. It's like that kind of stuff. But then also, oh, man.
Speaker 2:It's so many things. All these tools have varying degrees of support for each other, so you kinda build up a little stack to try and get your docs stack going. And a lot of people use these same tools, Mintlify, which I think we're gonna use for our Doxy website. It it's just like not working with the OpenAPI spec generated from this one tool that we use, but it was working with the previous tool. And then it's like, do we go back to the previous tool?
Speaker 2:And then I'm like, but all the time I've spent trying to get automated OpenAPI generation, I could've just written an OpenAPI doc probably. Like, I don't like writing YAML or JSON, but at the end of the day, maybe our API doesn't need to change much and this is all just wasted time. I feel like I've spent a
Speaker 1:week No. It's not because the whole point is yeah, we can do a one off thing, but we're just never gonna maintain this stuff well. Yeah. That's It's not automatic. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We we we learned this lesson in SST enough times where we're like, it just has to be as automatically generated as possible. Otherwise Yeah. There's drift and you never fix it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. The drift would be really painful and annoying and I don't know. What yeah.
Speaker 2:You want to explain? You want to give people context that we're gonna have a a an API where you can order coffee?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just for our podcast viewers because this isn't public information. You just leak
Speaker 2:all of it out. I'm sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're gonna make our API public and we're we think it's gonna it's funny for Adam to spend a lot of time making it like a really high quality documentation site with the sandbox and, you know, just make it feel like a real like a real product except it's just to order coffee programmatically. And we wanna have people we're gonna have a contest to see who can come up with the craziest place to integrate Yes. This thing? Where what's the craziest place you can Yeah. Order coffee winner gets free coffee for life, which is gonna be
Speaker 2:Twitch chat's gonna run with this. There's gonna be so many just like degenerate ways that they integrate this into things. I'm so excited to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we're we're building it out and it's gonna be, you know, we're gonna have SDKs in various languages too. Yeah. We're talking you my see my message about the Java and Kotlin one?
Speaker 2:No. We're gonna
Speaker 1:have a Java SDK.
Speaker 2:Of course, we have to have a Java
Speaker 1:SDK. Ordering. Everything costs 10 times as much if you order the Java SDK because you're enterprise.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. Of course, Java.
Speaker 1:I'm just I'm sure TJ will hand build an OCaml one because I don't think
Speaker 2:Oh, of a
Speaker 1:partner generates OCaml SDKs. Oh,
Speaker 2:man. Yeah. Anyway, I'm
Speaker 1:I'm sure you'll throw it into Telescope. I'm sure he'll do a bunch of, like
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Telescope, that'd be good. Yeah. So you'll be able to generate a personal access token and just order your coffee all over the place. Make a cron job.
Speaker 1:Cron job? Yeah. Yeah. That one's a great one.
Speaker 2:So we started with SSH. Next, the world. Basically, everywhere. There's gonna be coffee ordering in every corner of the Internet.
Speaker 1:Our SDK is gonna be on every single computing device on the planet. We
Speaker 2:should put one on a satellite or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm still looking into that.
Speaker 2:Oh, the shipping stuff into space? Yes,
Speaker 1:for sure. We're definitely gonna do that. I shared the idea with a few people that were not even like that technical and they thought it was so funny. So that just makes me really motivated.
Speaker 2:Can we like
Speaker 1:Make it happen.
Speaker 2:With like ironically, for the memes, can we raise a round? Can we just, like, raise a ton of money so we can do the stupidest stuff ever?
Speaker 1:Man, that's actually not a bad idea.
Speaker 2:Is there any VC that that wants to do that kind of thing? Like, invest in a
Speaker 1:That's really not a bad idea.
Speaker 2:A joke of a company? We're not a joke. I mean, we're a real company. We actually make money. That's what's funny.
Speaker 2:It's like the most real company I've ever been involved in. It's just like a business. We have to do taxes probably this year, our first year.
Speaker 1:I see reminder about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, yeah. That sucks.
Speaker 1:No, it's fine. Yeah. It's a real company. But doing it around is a funny idea.
Speaker 2:It is funny.
Speaker 1:I wonder if we
Speaker 2:could pull off.
Speaker 1:Like, we raise like a million dollars?
Speaker 2:That'd be so funny. And also
Speaker 1:The best thing to do Oh my god. This is such a good idea.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this would actually screw us over, but if we could get a single investor to do a priced round Mhmm. Dollar valuation. But like, you know, they may only invest like 10 k or whatever Yeah. Tiny percentage. It's kinda like think I think there's some signals at this at some point.
Speaker 1:I know they had some crazy valuation.
Speaker 2:Really? This is hilarious. So we can be a billion dollar company?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But, like, legally, like, they get a $4.00 9 a done and everything. But, like, does that screw us later? Because if we
Speaker 2:Probably. Down round if we ever did actually Like, a down
Speaker 1:round only matters if we gave liquidation preferences to that investor, I think. And if we
Speaker 2:don't do that way to do it. There's gotta be a way to do this for the memes.
Speaker 1:That is so good. Oh my
Speaker 2:god. So funny to have an actual four zero nine a. It'd be a billion dollar company.
Speaker 1:That is so funny.
Speaker 2:I would love that a whole lot.
Speaker 1:Oh, man. And even if
Speaker 2:it does screw us, we could just say we're never gonna race because we we shot ourselves in the foot. It's like we it's like we we ripped the parachute off. It's like, no. We're doing this.
Speaker 1:That's really good. Okay. We have to do that. That's really funny. Terminal is now
Speaker 2:a big time. Love it so to cover it. Yes. A TechCrunch article. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so good. Alright. I do need to get back. I keep staring at the code on my computer and it's Friday. And I gotta get this done.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:Well, hopefully, you can get it all done today.
Speaker 2:Well, the question is how much my merge conflicts are gonna take up of my day? How bad is it? What did you do?
Speaker 1:I don't think it's gonna be that bad. Because what I did was
Speaker 2:Was it mostly infra stuff?
Speaker 1:I actually just checked out the infra folder from your branch. Mhmm. To avoid merge conflicts.
Speaker 2:Nice. I haven't touched the infra since you did.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Like So that folder Did you jump into the core or any of the other packages?
Speaker 1:I added a new core folder, but that's not gonna conflict. I don't think your merch is gonna be that bad.
Speaker 2:Okay. Okay. Well, then maybe I do get this done today. Just maybe. I figured out the stainless step, by the way.
Speaker 2:Should I not say that on the podcast? I know.
Speaker 1:Why not? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know anything.
Speaker 1:No. It's fine. We're we're we're definitely gonna promote them that we're using Okay. Stainless. I I added them to our Slack, by the way.
Speaker 1:They're in there. And they're very excited.
Speaker 2:Cool. I'll hop in there. I do have a question still. But I figured out the issue. I so one question about their model.
Speaker 2:Nah, I can ask on Slack. Never mind.
Speaker 1:Their model is annoying, but it is what it is.
Speaker 2:Well, like, they they the the repos, there's so many repos and they pushed a change to like update their spec because they changed something. They have a new way of defining your whatever Oh,
Speaker 1:I see. And they updated it for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But they updated it in that repo. That's not in our our thing where our stainless YAML is. So when I made changes to our stainless YAML, I just jumped all over their changes and erased the new thing and it erased yeah. Our Our SDKs.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:But I fixed it. I found the history and got it all working.
Speaker 1:Okay. I have to I'm sure there's like five more annoying PRs for me to go look at in the time of this.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Good luck with that.
Speaker 1:Open source
Speaker 2:person. Have fun with that.
Speaker 1:After that person replied to me, I'll angry. But we'll see. Alright. Alright. See you.
Speaker 1:See you.
