Adam Talks a Lot of Shit for Someone From the Ozarks
Oh, God. The couch is wet. Oh. Yeah. I can't be outside, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, moves. A nice try.
Speaker 3:I'm sure you're wondering why Dax's couch is too wet to record. But before we get to that, Adam woke me up at 5AM on a Saturday morning to ask me to tell you if you'd like to support Adam and Dax and this very podcast, you can do so by subscribing to their new monthly box called Cron. You can open up your terminal and type sshterminal.shop, find out all the details there. It promises to be the most entertaining thing you get every month when it shows up at your door. And hey, maybe you're like me and your client wakes you up at 5AM on a Saturday to ask you to do something.
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Speaker 1:We're doing it.
Speaker 2:We're doing it. You are not in America.
Speaker 1:I'm not in America. It's fine. This is technically international travel.
Speaker 2:Do you care to share?
Speaker 1:I'm in the Dominican Republic. I got here on Wednesday. We're here till Sunday. We're doing a big family vacation with Liz's family. It's actually hilarious because we have, like, 20 something people here.
Speaker 1:Wow. And so it's kinda cool because it's a resort, but it's not like a giant resort, which means when we're all together, we're just like this giant mob just taking over the whole place. And it's it's a rowdy mob, so it's been pretty Oh, man. Slash funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. There were some, like, stereotypes I wanted to go down, but I'm not gonna go down them. But I can imagine
Speaker 1:Serotypes of what?
Speaker 2:Well, like A
Speaker 1:flat buttoned family. Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that.
Speaker 1:I miss I miss this, but Liz was describing the situation where they were waiting to get on one of those, like, golf cart trolley transport things or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They always have these resorts. And it was, like, 20 of them, and they had a boombox playing, like, loud Latin music. And they were, like, just being super rowdy, and, like, her dad was dancing with her mom, and they're doing all this crazy, like, Latin stuff, and they, like, were at the the stop. And then there was, like, this Asian family of, like it was, like, two like, the grandparents, like, the parents and the kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they were just, like, sitting and, like, slowly just, like, edging away and clearly like where they were really overwhelmed by everything that was going on. Yeah. And it was just like a funny juxtaposition of, you know, two different cultures.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The the funny thing also is when when you have this many people at a resort this size, you just randomly run into people over and over. Like, we're just going out and we just you see, like, your family members everywhere.
Speaker 2:So Yeah.
Speaker 1:It really feels like we just took over this place. So it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I didn't know you were going. This was like a surprise to me. Did you tell me and I forgot?
Speaker 1:No. I also it was just one of those things where we had the New York stuff, and then I just knew this was after, but, like, in my head, nothing existed until, you know, like after that point in time.
Speaker 2:Because there's just so much Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Focus and work. So yeah, I kinda forgot to.
Speaker 2:I wanna talk I this is I I feel like you'll never have a problem with this. Talk I wanna talk about SSD because I've been using SSD a lot and I have questions about like all of your plans. Because I'm just really how much I rely on it for like everything I do. The console, super good. Better all the time.
Speaker 2:It's so cool to just have like all of my work is in the console at this point. Being able to find logs, being able to find live stuff that's happening, like I've got external parties testing stuff and just being able to watch the logs. It's so it's so nice. Everything is so nice. The auto deploys now are you guys ever gonna add and this is this is where I don't know, like, where SST wants to focus, where you three care about focusing because this is like one specific thing you deploy, which is like web products.
Speaker 2:Do you ever plan to add like analytics stuff where I could just never use another external analytics party again and just have it in the console?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I guess I'll give you like a quick like, overview of where our head's at with a bunch of things. So the console itself, the for us, spending time in the console is always tricky because it is, like, the bottom thing in our funnel. Right? There's, like, people are here about ST.
Speaker 1:If they're using the console, they're, like, all the way towards the end. They probably have something already deployed in production. Yeah. And we need to have something there because that's, like, you know, important. But it's hard like, when you're, like, at the phase we are, we like it feels like, ugh, we have to, like, work on the console again.
Speaker 1:I'd rather focus on, like, getting two times as many users at the top.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like you already have us, like, us people using the console. You already sold us. So, like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Focusing your three people effort towards growing that big number at the top of the funnel. That makes sense. I think I've seen you tweet things like this and I wasn't smart enough at the time to know what you meant.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's Now, like get it. It's it I think the the thing that balances it out though is I'm an SD user, So when I can't do this on the console, I'm annoyed.
Speaker 2:So fix it.
Speaker 1:We Yeah. Yeah. We improved it a lot over the past couple of months. I still feel like I wanna improve it a lot more, but, yeah, it's just like there's always that tension. So the second thing is we obviously widen our scope a ton because with v three, you know, we support all different types of providers, etcetera.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But we are kind of I wouldn't say done, but it's just like we had a phase where we were, like, expanding wide just to make sure our stuff could work really well in all kinds of scenarios, test it all. But the next couple weeks, months are gonna be back to focusing on AWS and making sure that there's lots of us not very polished there well, so we wanna make sure we lock down the idea of this is gonna be the best way to do AWS. We wanna make sure that we we don't we don't, like, lose that as as we kinda widen our focus a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a good timing to shift over with all the new stuff too. There might be things that that changes for components you wanna add stuff. Like, I'd love the scale to zero config in Yep. Like, I've got databases.
Speaker 2:I just randomly, had this $200 AWS bill every month for like my personal account where I was doing it's like where I was in ProAWS stuff and then also it's like my stream overlays. There's like no traffic to any of that. And I realized like, oh, it's because I have these databases spun up in every account. And then it's also the NAT gateways. I think the cluster I just saw in the in your guys' little note on the cluster thing, it doesn't use NAT gateway in the new version or something.
Speaker 2:I've got to update all my stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll help you with that. We found a nice upgrade path with the the NAT gateway stuff where you don't have to use it at all if you don't want to and can kind of progressively add it in if you if you need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually one of the reasons we are shifting back to polishing AWS stuff. With all the CloudFront not really all the CloudFront changes, but that one big CloudFront change of functions being able change origins.
Speaker 2:The router stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, like, that just deserves us to go and look to see what this enables. Like, such a wide range of things. Like, all those weird ASTRO limitations with the 25 behavior stuff Mhmm. Obviously, that that could all be fixed.
Speaker 1:But also stuff like sharing a single CDN across multiple stages. So you deploy Mhmm. CloudFront once, and you can have, a sub domain for every PR, like, that type of thing.
Speaker 2:So Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we were doing another pass on all of our SR sites with this new capability to see, okay, how much better can we make things and what promises itself. So, yeah, that's, our current focus. But the thing you brought up of, like, the analytics thing, so, yes, that is falls probably falls under our scope of stuff that we would want to do. If you look at what I'm working on with OpenAuth right now, it's kind of in that category. It's taking something that typically is delivered as a hosted service and delivering it again as a host of service is inside your account.
Speaker 1:So you spin it up and you get, like, dedicated endpoints for it, and it looks the integration with it looks very similar to an integration you would do with Auth0, but it's, know, on on your infrastructure and integrates with the rest of our stuff. Analytics is obviously another
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Thing like that. And we try to, like, find ways to do it that's a little bit unique since we can spin up any infrastructure we want in your account.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think our equivalent for analytics would be so, typically, analytics is delivered as, like, a JavaScript tracking thing on on the front end. But because we have access to all of your infrastructure logs and everything, we can probably source data that most analytics solutions can't. But, like, for you specifically, like, what were you when you're having to say analytics, like, what are you what are you imagining?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just like, I I use not gonna name them because I don't wanna I don't know. I use like Google Analytics alternatives in the community Yeah. Right now. I don't know why I don't wanna name I don't want them to I don't want them come out that I'm like just moving off of them, I guess.
Speaker 2:Because I like these But just like having to have another thing outside of AWS funny. What?
Speaker 1:I'm I'm just laughing because there's like literally two options and I'm pretty sure like, when you said I like them, I'm like, there's probably only one of these people you personally know. So it's obviously Yeah.
Speaker 2:Know who it is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like, I I am I'm not the one to name this PHP based analytics tool, who I really like. Yeah. The way, they also
Speaker 2:use it
Speaker 1:us a lot.
Speaker 2:Anyway, no, I do like them. I just Just to,
Speaker 1:like, help you feel better about this
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot of our set is geared towards not being better than these products. It's just it's just nice when they're kind of in the same place.
Speaker 2:So Consolidated. Yeah. And all in my AWS account.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. So we built, like, a worse we will build a worse version of whatever you're using, but, like, you might still use it just because it's adjacent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right. So just like high level this is not like I'm not even for stat views. I'm not even thinking for that use case Mhmm. Because we have all kinds of custom stuff we do for analytics that I just don't imagine like a box off the box off the shelf box solution would work.
Speaker 2:Anyway, this is just like high level like what you get in Cloudflare. I think Cloudflare has like a basic analytics for Yep. Web properties just to like know, oh, people actually hit this. That's basically it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I yeah. I think our approach is always hoping, and this hasn't worked out too much, but I think it could work out for this, hoping there is an open source effort in building something like this and just wrapping it in a really slick component that just you drop it and you just get it at an endpoint. And so Drizzle released their $1 stats thing. I don't if you saw that.
Speaker 1:I don't even if they announced it because I saw it on some, like, random account posting it, but they did mention to me they're working on it. It's exact it's exactly that. It's, like, just a high overview or whatever. I think it costs, like, $1 a month or something. I don't know if that's open source.
Speaker 1:It's probably not, but there's probably some open source efforts around this. Yeah. So just wrapping that and deploying it into your account, and you just get it at analytics.mydomain.com or whatever. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that makes a lot of sense, and it's nice for us because it's like, yeah, every pretty much every single company needs it. It's, like, so general.
Speaker 2:Yep. I will say you you just a little word of advice if this is helpful. I this might be context I have. Server side versus like browser analytics are so wildly different. Maybe it's unique to stat me is because we get a lot of like bots, lot of scraping our site.
Speaker 2:But like our server side numbers if we go off our CloudFront logs are so much larger than like actual browser sessions from something like
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:Google Analytics. Like when you narrow it to things that actually execute JavaScript, it's just a huge it's like half. I mean, it's a huge discrepancy. Okay. And again, that might be just stat music is unique because we do again have a lot of that people trying to get our data and stuff.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if that colors
Speaker 1:No. I think that make that think that makes sense. I think it probably is good to do it from the browser. We could probably just put a flag on our SSR site so you say analytics true and then we could just inject the JavaScript
Speaker 2:back in That's so cool. You guys can do like anything like that, which is super cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We have like a nice entry point to all
Speaker 2:this stuff. Like other people what's cool about it and maybe this is just infrastructure nerd stuff that no one cares about, but it's cool because like if you did that, you decided I wanna inject like actual JavaScript into your sites. There might be like infrastructure level things that still have to be done to like allow that traffic or something and you guys can do that too. Like you can also modify CloudFront behaviors or something to like you can work front to back in a way that if you're not doing what SSD is doing, which is like the whole thing, all the infrastructure deployment, all that stuff, you can't do that. Like someone who just hands you a JavaScript library, they're kinda at the like whims.
Speaker 2:They're they're beholden to your infrastructure and how you deploy and all that anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. That's Historically, if you wanted to distribute something open source, you could only distribute a library and then that kind of limits the type of stuff you can distribute. Yeah. Or you have to like give them crazy instructions on like
Speaker 2:Right. You gotta have instructions per like place they could put their thing and you guys Yeah. Don't have that problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you look at OpenAuth so the way we set it up is we still expect most you to like own most of your data in your main database, but we needed some amount of state just so, like, a basic key value store type of things.
Speaker 2:So we
Speaker 1:can store, like, refresh tokens and things like that. You don't need access to that. It can just basically be a black box. Yep. If it was just a library, we'd have we would have had to make an adapter for use an adapter for Redis and for MySQL and for Postgres.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're different database slash yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But then for us, we're like, if you're on AWS, it's just gonna be a DynamoDB table. It it's never something you have to ever look into, so it's kind of invisible to you. If you're on Cloudflare, just Cloudflare KV. So we just need to implement those two, then we're we're good because we can ship the infrastructure with the library, basically.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we haven't taken advantage of it too much, but that's kinda like the the grand vision of like what we can eventually do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. More random just like questions for you. One, have you ever considered and maybe this is a huge hurdle, but like billing through our AWS account? I feel like some third parties have done that. It would be cool if the console could just
Speaker 1:That's what we wanted. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That would be even better. Because then it really is like we just pay our AWS bill every month, and we could imagine all these things coming under the fold of SST like analytics and all that, and it's just like one bill. That'd be awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, our create okay. So not only is that good for you guys, we are highly motivated to do that because of the way that AWS negotiates contracts. It's now like committed spend. Right? So if you committed us about a million dollars a year with them, us being part of that bill counts to that.
Speaker 1:So going through Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The procurement process for these giant enterprise companies, there's basically no procurement process. They don't have to go, like Yeah. Do any of that typical stuff, which could take, like, six months to a year. Yep. So that AWS Marketplace thing is, like, is very, very, very cool because it kind of solves Yeah.
Speaker 2:Your
Speaker 1:enterprise sales problem. The other thing we really wanna do is okay. So it's not easy to get that set up. We we should because we're you know, there's we have such a good reason to. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Once we have that set up, we might as well have our own marketplace on there as well. So if somebody distributes apps using SSD so there there's a few apps out there that are, like, kind of the type of things that we build, but other people have built them where
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It's
Speaker 1:open source or like maybe you even pay for it and I guess you're distributed through your account. Yeah. I would love to just see an app store one day in the SC console that's like installing
Speaker 2:know, yes. Like if someone else built open auth, like someone else could have built an auth solution and that's just like in your marketplace, you can turn that on. Oh, that's a great point.
Speaker 1:And it would all just get built through the same if if there is billing associated with it, it can just get built through the same Yeah. Kind of interface. So it would be an app store that would be multi cloud, which I think is a pretty, like, unique position.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. This is cool. What if, like yeah. What if the incumbents had motivation? Like, why why wouldn't Clerk wanna have an auth thing that you could deploy under AWS account through SST?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. Basically just like they view SST users as this whole other bucket of sales potential.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's like it should I mean, in the most extreme view, like, why wouldn't that just be the default? Because you eventually have to build that anyway because Okay.
Speaker 1:As soon as you hit enterprise, they're gonna want the stuff in their account. So you might as well start with the platform that lets you do that from day one. And we can build in, like, SDKs for all kinds of things, like, I mean, billing for one, but, like, there's all sort of common problems when you're deploying stuff into other people's accounts, like, monitoring it, doing updates, like, all kinds of stuff. So Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is a great idea. SST was a good idea. Good job, guys. Like, I can see the future for like the everything before this, it's like the whole generation of dev tool companies before this was so like agnostic to infrastructure. And this just seems like the most obvious, well, what if we weren't?
Speaker 2:What if we weren't agnostic? What if we also included your infrastructure in the thing? Is that kind of the bet? I mean, that's the like thing that is unique?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Think we basically our most extreme bet is that delivering software as a service is not, a permanent long term thing. And we're betting that we can make that change or, like, if that change happens. And if it does, obviously, massive win would show up if you did that. The other thing that changed a lot, which makes this possible, is if you think about why you were paying for a SaaS before, it was a combination of two things.
Speaker 1:They wrote a bunch of code that you don't have. Mhmm. It's like closed source, and they wrote it. They put in the time and effort and investment to write it. But once it's written, like, obviously, there's updates, but roughly, like, once it's written, it can be deployed a billion times over.
Speaker 1:Like, it's it's there's no more investment needs to go into it. But the reason you pay them monthly is because they also deal with the operations of running that code. Mhmm. So spinning up the database, like, all that economics of scale where, like, you're just renting a small portion of, you know, whatever infrastructure that they have.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And so that's why software service made sense. It wasn't just for the software. It was also for, like, the operations of running it.
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 1:if cloud primitives become more and more self running, where, like, AWS is basically can do all that for you Mhmm. You start to pay companies just for their code. Right? Like Yeah. A lot of modern companies have they're not managing infrastructure at all.
Speaker 1:They're just using managed infrastructure themselves.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So you're only paying them for code now. So that means anyone that can produce the code can produce a competitor. So I think
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That that shift has also happened where, yeah, like the models around this have to change because the moment something open source clones you and it's just as easy to self host it because the operations are basically the same, you now have a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Elastic. Yeah. There's probably a dozen examples. Is that fit what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. For sure. Like, anytime, like, something gets cloned by a big cloud, it's it's that. It's just there's already, like, the biggest company in the world offering, here, we deal with operations for you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:As a service.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's hard to also sell product being like, oh, yeah, and then we deal with the operations for you.
Speaker 2:Yep. Makes sense. Yeah. I just thought another random idea. This was one while we've been talking of things I want in this SSD marketplace or maybe I want you guys to build it.
Speaker 2:Like a simple cost explorer, a simple like Mhmm. AWS spend diagnostics.
Speaker 1:Do that.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. If you guys do that and you just do the like SST version that's super simple and very easy to parse because like I've spent a decade in the AWS billing and management console or whatever. So I have like some experience, but it's still overwhelming and I still I still spend way more time just for some basic information I want. Like a top down, like single page overview of my AWS spend. Oh, man, I'm getting really excited about SSD.
Speaker 2:Can I invest? You guys are gonna do another round, right? Can we talk about that on a podcast? Podcast? Is Is that that a a thing thing that that can could be be talked talked about?
Speaker 2:About? We
Speaker 1:might do another round in January. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just realized I said you guys are I don't know if that's something I can say. Maybe you say the thing No. It's fine. About Chris. Okay.
Speaker 2:Cause if I say it, he'll keep it in.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. It's fine. I mean, nothing we're it's like very early.
Speaker 1:We're just exploring
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Our options, but
Speaker 2:Wink wink. Let me know. I might wanna Would that be weird if I was one of your investors? I'd be an I'm one of our investors. Okay.
Speaker 2:That is a is that a conflict of interest? No. I don't know. I don't know anything about this. Like, now you want to succeed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I knew that. I mean, I would be like a needy investor.
Speaker 2:I would not be like dumb money. I would be like I'd be checking in all the time. I'd be super annoying. Like, where's the quarterly update? I need a quarterly update.
Speaker 2:We
Speaker 1:actually do monthly updates, so you'd
Speaker 2:be Oh, wow. Look at you guys. I'm gonna write like a $10,000 check and I'm gonna be the most needy person on the cap table. Just watch me.
Speaker 1:The the thing is like, I don't think it would be worth the investment because we're just a little bit further along for like, it to make sense for individual investments, you know?
Speaker 2:Oh, sure. Yeah. This is where the big money, the institutions come in. The big boys their
Speaker 1:If saying that you're gonna invest in it and be annoying, then clearly you're getting an ROI there that's not like monetary related. So Yeah. Maybe it
Speaker 2:is worth it. It's about it's about the relationship. I wanna be close to the SSD people. That's all.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But anyway, all this stuff, again, sounds really good, but, yeah, we're still, like, a long ways off from seeing if it's actually gonna work out or like there's there's there's like a lot that still needs to be put into place.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This this stuff just takes forever. It's like building anything takes such a long time.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. And there's just three of you. Do you guys feel like it'll always just be the three of you? Do you ever think about
Speaker 1:like We're definitely hitting our limits in terms of what we can do as three. I'm really proud of how much we've done as three and I think it's really good to like just push ourselves.
Speaker 2:Can I say I'm very proud of what you guys yeah? Like, when I see like blog posts and stuff that are so well done and like the fact that you guys have time to do that kind of stuff and build all this, it's kind of insane. Sorry, cut you off.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I think it's like it's I've always wanted to be able to say, like, oh, yeah. Well, I'm on a team where everyone looks at it, and they're like, how the hell are they doing all this stuff? And I feel like we've hit that bar, but there's just, a ceiling, like, as in terms of I'm sure there's another team of three that can do more than we can, but in terms of where we are, I feel like we've been as clever as we can and found the leverage and did all that stuff.
Speaker 1:And we're definitely at our limits of how much we can do, and I think our ambition is it's like it's like hitting up against our ambition of what we want to do. Mhmm. I think the thing that suffers is I think the thing you just cannot do with a small team is polish. Like, I'm pretty proud of how much polish we do given our size, but
Speaker 2:I mean, the console feels polished to me.
Speaker 1:That's because we just did a round of polish on it. Okay. It was kind of in like a not a great state for a little bit. Yeah. So but like other other companies that are a lot bigger, yes, when I look at them, I'm like, there's they have like a whole team for something that is should not even be, like, a one full time role.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But the upside from that is you never get something that feels, like, unpolished. So, like, obviously, we don't wanna rotate to that extreme, but, you know, adding one more person. Yeah. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But would it yeah. Would it be weird to, like, have a non founder involved at this point? Like, would it feel weird for you guys?
Speaker 1:I'm technically not a founder, so it's Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Figure like you've been there a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's I mean, it's more of like a me personality thing. I've been there for a long time, and when I work on something, I, like, am gonna treat it the same way if it's if I'm technically a founder or not. And obviously, was like, they're super early, so it's a little bit different. So, yeah, it is gonna be weird when we add someone.
Speaker 1:Like like, that dynamic, like, just having, like, a new employee is weird on its own.
Speaker 2:You'll to start wearing a shirt on the calls. I mean Yeah. I guess I'll wear shirt. That would that would hurt. That's actually what I
Speaker 1:was gonna bring up. Like, we have such a tight dynamic that it's just so it feels just so scary adding a fourth person because it's gonna, like, reset our dynamic a little bit for a while just so, like, as we, like, suss everything out and, like, fall into a new flow. And so it's obviously always scary and feels like you might you might lose something.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So yeah. I think that's what's also slowed down us ever bringing on another person. We just wanna like I just wanna bring on someone that I already know. Like, if you join the team, that would be great.
Speaker 2:Was just like Yeah. Don't worry
Speaker 1:about about all that stuff.
Speaker 2:When do I when can I start? I'll build the the analytics and the billing thing. Yeah. Perfect. Things I want.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just work on things I want too. That's that's really Yeah. All that happens. It's it's like, isn't it so weird that our roadmap and things I want just happen to always coincide? Like, what a weird fun coincidence.
Speaker 2:It's awesome. I just I I wanna say, I ask you a lot of questions and then I interrupt you immediately. And I just remembered some comment I read across one of our platforms, maybe YouTube, where someone was like, bro, stop cutting Dax off. Like, chill. And it's in my Every head every every time I cut you off, it's in my head.
Speaker 2:I do all the time. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No. But the thing is you cut me off because I'm long winded. It's it's like it's fine. Don't worry about that. Okay.
Speaker 2:It's just Okay.
Speaker 1:We both
Speaker 2:have a immediately. It's like immediately after I ask I'll be like, so Dax, what do think about this? But then Like, I don't let you actually answer.
Speaker 1:No. Just ignore that comment.
Speaker 2:Okay. You heard you heard it here. Dax gave me permission to interrupt him all I want.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:SSC is great. That's all. That's what this segment was. I'm a big fan. And it's so cool to look at the little workspace drop down in the console and it's like stat muse, terminal, and then like my personal stuff.
Speaker 2:It's just cool that that's like my whole world digitally and it's all here in the console now. And I can go to logs and I can I don't have to think about like just launching something new? I just did a little side project at StatMuse the other day. And it's so nice to like hook it up in the console and just know like, I never have to open the CloudWatch thing to try and figure out like, is this getting activity? I can just go to the logs thing.
Speaker 2:I can watch the live log. It's so nice. And you guys aren't doing a whole lot yet. Like, you're still early in the console. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it's still so useful. So keep doing stuff. It's nice. Even on the
Speaker 1:bottom of the file. I just I just keep track of when I end up in the AWS console because I still end up having to go there a bunch. The the Yeah. Billing thing is is a big one. I'm always in there to, like, figure out cost stuff.
Speaker 1:So, obviously, if I'm in there a bunch, we need to do a feature for that.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Our log stuff, I've always been, like it's an okay thing right now. I think it's particularly useful for what you're talking about where you're building something new and it's, like, not fully in production yet and you're just trying to, like, look at stuff. It's not very good when you have, like, production traffic because there's no, like, search and stuff that you kinda expect from a a login tool. So we need to add that stuff. We are, like, constrained by because we don't we try to just build on top of what AWS gives you.
Speaker 1:CloudWatch Insights, obviously, is constrained to, you know, certain capabilities. That said, they haven't announced anything with this yet, but they did one small announcement where before, when you wanted to search across your logs, you're limited to 50 log groups at once, which always sucks it to, like, click them all.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just like all of them. You can search across at, like Oh, nice. All of them, which is great. And I noticed this, and later Frank bought brought it up independently, so I think it might be true.
Speaker 1:I'm like, these results are coming back a lot faster. It feels like because it was kinda slow before, and it feels like I'm getting, like, search results pretty quickly. And the reason we never wrapped it, that search functionality, was because it felt, like, kinda slow and It's not
Speaker 2:too slow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. But now it's kind of good, so maybe it's worth, like, doing another pass and and seeing if we can expose the search The thing for me is okay. So if I search for a log, let's say I'm looking for I log out event.user created when a user is is created or something like that. I search it and I get a bunch of results every single time it sees that.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But I don't care about a bunch of results. I, like, wanna find what I'm looking for and then immediately see the logs above and below it. Yeah. And CloudWatch makes that kind of annoying to do.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So if we just nail that flow, I think then it's pretty good as like a general purpose logging thing Yeah. Maybe you don't need to ship it to somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I will say, well, I don't really use the logs feature statmuse so much like on our website, but I do like, I know that the issues will show all the function failures. That's huge. And that kind of like circumvents my like, I don't even know what I would look
Speaker 1:for in the logs.
Speaker 2:I'm just looking for like where Issues, across our scale is stuff breaking. We also hit that limit a lot though where I have to like the button and to refresh because we have too much going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, okay. So the other thing is we're gonna move issue processing into your own account at which point there's gonna be no limits.
Speaker 2:Oh, so right now it's in your account.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's the one thing we did
Speaker 2:like Nice.
Speaker 1:More in a traditional SaaS way. Yeah. A subscriber goes to our account. That's where a lot of our bills come from. So we're like, let's just put it in the user's account.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So every time I click that button to re enable, I'm like costing you money. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No. No. It's like a feature you're paying for so
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You gotta say sorry,
Speaker 2:but If you could move into our account, that'd be great to not have to click that button because I don't even know what that means. I just click it every time I see it. Yeah. We hit we hit some threshold and like I'm like I want all the logs so I click
Speaker 1:Yeah. So but see, these are just things that come up from a traditional SaaS thing. It's like, okay. I have a centralized service with all my customers, but then like I have this one customer that sends me a ton of stuff and they're kind of breaking our pricing model and this other customer is is somehow like under our threshold, but their like traffic patterns are weird, so like they're kind of breaking our pricing on another way and how do we juggle free tier and Yeah. All those problems go away, we just put that shit into your account And it's
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No limits. Whatever you use, you pay for at the literally the cheapest possible rate because you're paying directly to the infrastructure provider. Yep. Yeah. It's it just makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:I'm remembering like I'm remembering times now when we first turned on some of the stat me stuff where you'd be like, hey, we're getting this error like 10,000 times. Do do you like wanna have that error? Like and it's stuff that we just we just ignore it. Like, we're a pretty small team too, so there's stuff that like we could fix it in like ten minutes, but we don't. And I just think now like, is that costing you guys money?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd say that's what's flawed about this model. Right? Yeah. It's just, like, you are you effectively just become, like, a dumb compute storage provider at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Like Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Issue detecting part is not where energy goes to. Like, we're not spending our time making that stuff better. It could be way better. We're spending our time, like, looking at our Kinesis situation and figuring out how optimize it.
Speaker 1:So Mhmm. But again, last generation companies, that's how they all got big.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But I I don't know if replaying that is still gonna work out nowadays. Anyways, I'm try
Speaker 2:trying to transition into anything else. I don't know. We could talk about SCC, whole episode. I don't care.
Speaker 1:No. I think this is a good good summary of what's going on. Have you been to Dominican Republic? You haven't been to Caribbean.
Speaker 2:I've I've been to the the Baja Peninsula in Mexico for a week. That's my my international exposure.
Speaker 1:In that Gulf area?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, South Of San Diego. Not Gulf. Sorry.
Speaker 1:But Not Gulf.
Speaker 2:Pacific Side.
Speaker 1:Okay. I see. I see.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1:You should go to The Caribbean. It's great.
Speaker 2:I should. Yeah. Oh, what? You know what? Never mind.
Speaker 2:I've been to The Bahamas. Is that international?
Speaker 1:Think so.
Speaker 2:It's in The Caribbean. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's it's like it's confusing because Puerto Rico is not international technically.
Speaker 2:Oh, Puerto Rico is like a US I
Speaker 1:we flew first class.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:And I was horizontal the whole time because it was an international it was technically international flight, so it was like an it was actually
Speaker 2:worth it. It's one of those like, it lays down. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, have the reclining thing and then we got a blanket and it was great because our flight was at we had to get to the airport at, like, 5AM or 4AM, so we just didn't
Speaker 2:Oh, that sucks. Yeah. How how long of a flight is that? I wouldn't have thought to
Speaker 1:the what sucks was that it's like, I want this flight to never end because I wanna milk this first class experience for Yeah. For as much as I can. Because, like, first class, I'm I mostly fight domestic, and I'm just like, yeah. I'll get, like, the nicer seat, like, the seat that has more leg room. And I'm, like, sitting right behind first class.
Speaker 1:And it's like, to me, that feels like like a 20% gap, I would say, for, like, twice the
Speaker 2:It's not a huge like, the comfort plus versus first class, yeah, it's not a huge
Speaker 1:difference. Yeah. It's like they treat you a little bit nicer. Like, that's about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They serve food, I guess. Like, I never take any of the food or drink, so like
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't get that benefit.
Speaker 1:But this was an international That's you different. Know,
Speaker 2:was just in The
Speaker 1:Caribbean and it was like giant, like a massive difference. Like, it was so nice and the people were the staff was really great, so it was definitely worth it.
Speaker 2:I think the only time I've had a plane is it just the size of the plane that makes for that Yeah. First class experience? I think so. It it was in LA to New York. That's the only time I've seen those like lay down seats.
Speaker 2:And they're like all individual. It's like you have a little cockpit you're in. Yep. Is that the kind it was? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Those are so great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then it was a yeah. They just had it was great. I think I barely got any sleep that night, and I was like, this is perfect. So it was only a two and
Speaker 2:a half
Speaker 1:hour flight, I was like, I wish it was like a five hour flight so I could more would have expensive, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I I hate not flying first class, and I'll tell you why. Mhmm. I've I mostly fly first class because not because I'm bougie, which I am too, but I have broad shoulders. I mean, I'm a big guy.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're big. That's true. Yeah. I always think
Speaker 2:about that. The knee. Everyone always thinks like, oh, you're hitting your knees on the seat in coach. No. It's the shoulder to shoulder.
Speaker 2:I'm always with some other giant male and like we're From Midwest. One of us has to like yeah. From the exactly. We're flying from the Midwest. I have to like either lean forward or he has to lean forward.
Speaker 2:Like, one of we can't set side to side. Like, we're shoving each other this way. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's why I fly first class because the the width of the seats is so much better. It's not about the depth. I don't care about who's in front of me. You can lay your seat back in
Speaker 1:my lap. Because there there there there's only two seats per Yes. Per column or whatever. There's
Speaker 2:so much wider. Uh-huh. Yeah. And I always like feel like I could actually get my laptop out, and sometimes I do. I get my laptop out and I can actually do something in first class.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In the back, there's no way.
Speaker 1:It's impossible. That's crazy because I work
Speaker 2:It's an ROI.
Speaker 1:I work on my laptop all the time in the in the normal seats. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a huge difference. Okay. I
Speaker 1:think most all the time because I'm like, if you're huge, like, this is impossible. Like, I'm, like, just barely okay. So if you're I'm not I'm, like, a normal sized person. If you're bigger than me, like, that sucks, and it doubles us because it's not like your income correlates to your height. Like, if you're you can just still not have a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, right. This is a big tax. Yeah. It's just like so arbitrary.
Speaker 1:I was in some, like, crazy car the other day, and I was imagining like Shaquille O'Neal being in this car and like
Speaker 2:Oh it
Speaker 1:just literally would not be able to do it. Thank God Yeah. He's a super rich basketball player, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Think if you're like if you're an NBA player, you're this giant person and you're really into cars. You're you can't just like do the Jay Leno thing and own all these tiny cars fit. It sucks.
Speaker 1:No. It sucks.
Speaker 2:I guess you could own them just to look at them like matchbox cars. Just collect them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You probably need to get custom cars, like, even if it's not like a even just like a SUV is probably not enough for him. Like, a normal SUV probably still wouldn't fit him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For someone that's seven foot two or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's impossible. Like, did he ever fly is he, like, allowed to fly economy?
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe not weight and balance. Like, if you, like, wanna move from one side of the plane to the other, they're like, hang on. We'll have to check with the pilots because weight and balance. It's like, I'm two hundred pounds. Like, what is the plane that delicate?
Speaker 1:I've never heard that.
Speaker 2:You never heard that?
Speaker 1:That sounds like an excuse they say.
Speaker 2:It probably is. But they like they'll say when someone wants to move because it's like not a full flight and they wanna move to the other side to be in the aisle or whatever, just because there's like two people on one side and there's nobody on there. So it's like, wanna switch. If they've already done the weight and balance, like the pilots have already like done that whatever step it is, they're like, we'll have to check because, I don't know, the plane's gonna crash.
Speaker 1:You should ask your brother if it's real.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna ask him because that's scary if it's that sensitive. Like, that one person moving across the aisle would, like, throw the the plane into a tailspin or something.
Speaker 1:I wasn't even thinking about that. I was just saying, like, is it if if Shaquille Naylor buys a single economy seat, he probably is not gonna physically fit
Speaker 2:in whoever the seat
Speaker 1:next to him is just completely screwed.
Speaker 2:So Oh, maybe he he could probably buy two seats.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He can, but do they force you to? That's my question. I think they might force you to. They have to have How some policy
Speaker 2:would they know? Like, they could book the full flight. Like
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you don't ask
Speaker 2:your height weight when you buy a ticket.
Speaker 1:That'd kick you off. Basically, they're like, you're too large. We can't fly you. And I'm sure they're allowed to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, now he probably like flies private every time he flies. But there was a point in Shaq's life when he was seven foot two and he was young and he didn't have money and he probably had to fly. I'd like to know this
Speaker 1:drove everywhere.
Speaker 2:Maybe. Like John Madden. Do you ever heard the story of John Madden?
Speaker 1:No. What is that?
Speaker 2:I'm just bouncing off John of Madden was like a do you know who he was? He was a football Yeah. Coach. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He refused to fly. He was terrified of flying, like would not get in a plane. So he had the Madden it was like this giant bus that I can't remember the name of it, the Madden Mobile. I don't know. Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:They drove everywhere. He I mean, he was a commentator. He was going to every like city in America every week and they drove a bus all over the country for him to do the sportscast. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I think Travis Barker, who's a drummer, he was in some crazy plane crash. I think he it was like a pub it was like a commercial plane. It wasn't like a private Oh, jeez.
Speaker 1:And like all this skin it's something crazy. It's some crazy like brutal thing, and he just never flies ever anymore. He just drives everywhere. It
Speaker 2:always is weird when you hear of a plane crash where people survive. You just assume plane crash dead. Like, everyone dies. Out of the Every
Speaker 1:time I imagine plane crash, I'm like, I'm gonna survive it.
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna survive it. That is I'm gonna clench my abs at the right moment and it's gonna save me.
Speaker 2:That's hilarious. There's that woman that fell was it? It's this crazy have you heard this? It was on Twitter.
Speaker 1:Was ride falling out of a plane. Yeah.
Speaker 2:She was like tied to she was strapped to her seat and her seat fell 30,000 feet and she lived. Like, what in the world? And then she had to like survive in the Amazon for like how long? Do you know who I'm talking about? This specific person?
Speaker 2:She fell
Speaker 1:in the Amazon? Damn.
Speaker 2:Or not maybe it was like a jungle. Don't don't quote me Okay. On But she fell in like the trees they think like broke her fall or something. I don't know. Don't know how you could fall 30,000 feet and live, but you could see it, I
Speaker 1:can see it.
Speaker 2:But then she like I was lived with some tribe and like it's this crazy Wait, what? Who is this person? Oh, I feel bad
Speaker 1:for think she was like a god because she like fell to
Speaker 2:this No. Seriously. She was like praised. Hang on. Woman falls from plane and lives.
Speaker 2:Oh, here we go. Here we go. No no no no. Vezna Volovichyk. Flight attendant aborted Two Russian.
Speaker 2:Flight attendant? I'm guessing. January 1972. Hang on. Hang on.
Speaker 1:Yes. The classic Russian plane flying over the Amazon.
Speaker 2:It wasn't the Amazon. I'm sorry. I screwed that part up. This the one I'm thinking of? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:This is not the one. This lady like survived in a jungle. Was she pregnant?
Speaker 1:She was Oh my god.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. Many details of
Speaker 1:the story are there?
Speaker 2:Here we go. Yes. Julianne Kopka. This is one of the most wild things I've ever heard in my life. German Peruvian Mamadona, survived a plane crash.
Speaker 2:Peruvian Peruvian Amazon rainforest in 1971. Sole survivor of Landsaflight five zero eight, which disintegrated in midair after being struck by lightning. Oh, yeah. New fear unlocked, by the way. Apparently, lightning disintegrated her by lightning.
Speaker 2:Disintegrated. Is the word they used. Well, Gemini used it. Maybe Gemini's wrong. She fell 10,000 feet while strapped to her seat in the jungle, survived eleven days in the jungle, eating sweets from the wreckage and using survival skills she learned from her zoologist parents.
Speaker 2:What are the odds? The sole survivor of a plane crash over the Amazon had zoologist parents. Actually, maybe pretty high because if you're flying over the Amazon, maybe it's because you live near the Amazon and your parents were zoologists. I don't know. Rescued by local lumberjacks after finding their camp.
Speaker 2:Recovered in a Peru hospital later okay. Wait. I thought there was more to this story. I feel like there is.
Speaker 1:That's crazy enough already.
Speaker 2:I don't need it
Speaker 1:anymore than that.
Speaker 2:Okay. She might have been pregnant and there may have been something about worshiping her or something. I don't know. Look it up. Worshiping her.
Speaker 1:The lumberjacks worshipped her.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Lumberjacks.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. But yeah, would survive. I would also survive.
Speaker 2:You totally would, Lil Bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If anyone would survive, it would be Lil Bro himself. So I just I I knew you changed your name to that. I saw it. But I just saw this morning why you changed it. So funny.
Speaker 1:I know. It's that was a funny situation yesterday.
Speaker 2:I was a little surprised that he called you Lil Bro. I feel like that was was it aggressive or was it in context not so aggressive?
Speaker 1:I would say it is aggressive, but it's just mostly the thing he does where he tries to, like, just do Internet talk. You know? Oh. He does a lot. Like, was just putting the word cracked into everything, like, a few months ago.
Speaker 1:Fellow kids? He's just trying so hard to fit in, you know. Anyway, the one thing I'll say is, you guys all know how good I am at talking shit.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It took a lot of mercy in me to not say anything back to him. Because when someone that's four feet tall calls you a little bro, there's a lot of things you can say back to him. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Well, you just did it. Any mercy that you had, you
Speaker 1:just No, I didn't. You just I said I didn't do that.
Speaker 2:But you did just now on the podcast.
Speaker 1:This No, counts I as did. I did I did it. I said I didn't do that.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's how it works.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:You're lucky I I didn't call you a shithead. You're lucky I didn't. It's funny. I'm getting more comfortable with saying shit apparently. That's like the second time on this podcast that I said it, it doesn't get edited out.
Speaker 1:I'm confused because I like I'm pretty sure you curse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, I do.
Speaker 1:You're not someone that doesn't curse. So is this something you, like, withhold when you're in public? Or, like, what is the deal here? What's, like, your rubric for it?
Speaker 2:You know, I'm learning about my a lot about myself. I'm still not the same person with every person I interact with. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:That's yeah. Then it's okay.
Speaker 2:That's probably normal ish. Yeah. So I think I like, there's a public persona of me that doesn't curse maybe. Even when I do curse though, it does sound unnatural. I'll say that.
Speaker 2:I spent most of my life not cursing. I'm one of those people that like grew up in a very conservative home and and then like graduated high school and it's like, oh, I can say words. I'm gonna say them. You know what I mean? Like, it just sounds so forced when I do curse.
Speaker 2:I think I type curse a lot more than I speak curse, if that makes
Speaker 1:I see. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's in me. It wants to come out, but my lips just don't have a lot of practice. So it sounds like it just sounds weird when it comes out. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's funny. I have the opposite problem where, like, I really like the idea of being someone that doesn't that doesn't curse. Yeah. But I literally don't know how to punctuate certain things without doing it. Like, it's just
Speaker 2:so It's just dramatic effect. It really adds something to language. Yeah. It does.
Speaker 1:I I can't make jokes and I can't do like certain jokey tones without like throwing that in there. Yeah. I can understand Northeast thing like it's it's impossible. Yeah, I don't think I can stop.
Speaker 2:No. It's hard. There's there's no other yeah. There's no other way to land certain points or to, like, dramatic effect emphasis. It's usually humor.
Speaker 2:Think it's
Speaker 1:not. It's it's it's just not. Yeah. For me, it's like if I don't curse, I don't have a sense of humor. So it's it's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I get it. No. It's something that Casey and I I think started doing together in the last few years where we we'll just like it's just like parenting their stuff that just you just need to curse sometimes. And it we we always say like, after a good one lands, it's like, man, that added a lot to our life.
Speaker 2:Like, just reintroducing cursing. I think I did in high school and then, like, didn't for a while again and then we're back at it. I don't know. It's an interesting phenomenon. But it still sounds weird on the podcast because I think on the podcast, I'm I'm kind of the part of me that doesn't curse.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? I don't know why. I'm just talking to you. Like, I don't care. But there's people that listen, that's why.
Speaker 2:I just remembered. Yeah. Like, don't curse on my stream either. I kinda have like a persona in in certain contexts where I'm like the Midwestern guy that is a certain way. I don't know.
Speaker 1:That is who you are.
Speaker 2:So I'd like to just be the one person. That'd be nice. It'd feel very nice to just be one person, you know?
Speaker 1:You're just a little Midwestern bitch. Is
Speaker 2:that my persona? I'll take it. Okay.
Speaker 1:No. I'm just kidding. Curse word. See, don't know how to make a joke without cursing.
Speaker 2:That's funny. There's also, like, kids around. Like, I don't want my kids to just start I don't know why, though. I don't know if I don't want my kids to say words that are offensive to, like, their teachers. That would be bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I talked to Liz about this a lot because both of us curse, and we're like, okay. How are we gonna we had this exact same conversation. Like, our
Speaker 2:kids Yeah.
Speaker 1:We need to modify what we say so they don't pick up on that stuff. Then, obviously, the next question is, like, why does it matter? It's just a word. Yeah. And, ultimately, the explanation is, like, not satisfying to me to the point where I, like, I don't know if I buy it.
Speaker 1:It's just there's a social norm, and it's embarrassing when your kid curses, and the norm is kids don't do
Speaker 2:that. It's
Speaker 1:Yes. That simple. Funny when they curse. It's so funny when a kid curses. So how am I not gonna laugh?
Speaker 2:Yeah. My so my five year old, he is not the clearest of speakers. Like, Asa at his age was way clearer. Like, everything he said sounded like an adult. Archie has a bit of a like, I don't know, baby ism to his speak.
Speaker 2:And there's sometimes where he'll he's saying a different word, but it comes out as a curse word and it is hilarious. Yeah. Like, that is the peak of our week. Yeah. So, yeah.
Speaker 2:It is funny that it's this thing that's like, you don't want your kid to curse to somebody that just feels awkward and embarrassing. But when they do it at home, it is the funniest thing. And yeah. Why is it's funny like, I can go to the the root of it. Like, why does it matter what words we say?
Speaker 2:And then I know I know there are people that are very offended when they hear certain words. And I guess that's why. That's why we don't just all curse all the time because some people are offended by it. Is that how it works? Or But there's other things people do that There's someone offended by like everything.
Speaker 2:So you you have to draw a line somewhere where like, I'm not gonna not step on a crack on the sidewalk because somebody's offended by it. Like, that's an extreme. Yeah. That that like, there has to be some line. What is the line?
Speaker 2:And I think it's just a
Speaker 1:and if, like, collectively, it feels like the average person finds out outside the range of normal. Like, if I just walked out with this completely naked
Speaker 2:Yeah. That would would be offensive.
Speaker 1:I think the word offend is Maybe something more extreme than
Speaker 2:it
Speaker 1:it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That word has a lot of like weight today, I think. Yeah. Maybe.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't be naked because, you know, I would make a bunch of people uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's nice for
Speaker 1:me not to.
Speaker 2:But then it's context specific too. Right? Like in New York Yeah. There's probably more like social acceptance to just drop an f bombs because it's just how you speak. Is that And
Speaker 1:I'm sure kid yeah. I'm sure kids like it's like a totally different thing there. Yeah. I feel like I've heard kids recently drop the f bomb, and it was kinda surprising, but, like, nobody, like, really thought much of it. So I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe things have shifted. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe. Yeah. The across ages, it's different too. Like, once once the generation above us passes and we're the oldest, we're probably not gonna care as much. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's true.
Speaker 2:I feel like we'll be old people that are like but they'll come up with new words that we do feel uncomfortable uncomfortable about. We'll just have, like, new slang that's like, ew, don't say that. That just mean, I kind of feel
Speaker 1:that way. I, like, hate almost all of the Zoomer
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Slang that they use. I have a rule. I'm pretty generous with this, I think. I'll give you till the age of 30. Okay?
Speaker 1:I think you should be a lot younger, but after the age of 30, just don't add new phrases to your vocabulary. You don't need it. Just You
Speaker 2:Do do I do this? I feel like I kinda do this. You do? There's words I say that maybe just on Twitter. I feel like on Twitter, I say words that I didn't say ever before.
Speaker 2:I've probably added words in my I'll
Speaker 1:give small allowances.
Speaker 2:Small allowance.
Speaker 1:Okay. But broadly, you don't need to add new phrases. You know how to express everything you need to express by that age? Yeah. Like, anything new just you don't you don't you don't need it.
Speaker 2:Don't need to. I think it was when I started streaming on Twitch that people in Twitch say so many words and I'm like, I I don't know. I started introducing I can't even think of one right now, actually. I think mostly when I say words like that, I'm joking. It's like a joke Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. To like use a word that's way below you, way younger than you.
Speaker 1:I I think that's my problem too. Like when I go to say it, it to me, it sounds so forced and, like, I'm, like Yes. Hyper aware of what I'm doing that I'm, like, this doesn't doesn't make any sense for me to say this. So I can only say it in, like, a satirical context, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. There I think there's also this confusing thing where there's like Internet like language versus what is young people language. Because I mean, the Internet is skews very young, but there's also just like language that's kind of in our circles that I don't know. Maybe it's because we hang out with younger people. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Some of our friends are still in their late twenties. It's hard. It's hard. I don't know what's Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe just maybe there's just like a taste factor that goes in. There's just stuff that you like and stuff that you don't. Like, the whole like cracked engineer shit, like I hate that. I hate when everyone's like, oh, he's cracked. That's gotta hire a cracked engineer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The younger generation, that's like the rock star. Our generation was like, he's a rock star programmer. Too, though. I know we hated that because it was like the LinkedIn recruiters that said that stuff, but like
Speaker 1:And now LinkedIn I feel like cracked cracked it's like the same thing. It's like
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:Was it? It was like some some, like, tech CEO said crack the other day. No. Was it Brian Armstrong, the Coinbase guy? It was somebody.
Speaker 3:And I
Speaker 1:was just like, dude, like, come on.
Speaker 2:Just don't. Like You're
Speaker 1:you don't need to be saying this. You know what I mean? Saying cracked. And then okay. The reason it it extra bothers me, and this is the same problem with the rock star engineer, it becomes a thing people sort of just, like, self prescribe to them.
Speaker 1:Like, everyone, like, wants to be a cracked engineer. So they're like Yeah. Yeah. Saying the things that they think cracked, quote unquote, cracked engineers. It just becomes like this,
Speaker 2:like,
Speaker 1:hard to watch thing.
Speaker 2:You know? I wanna say something about the whole, like, levels of programmers, like, 10 x engineers or whatever. I wanna just have a conversation. I have a lot of thoughts here that have made me think about this recently. Are you in a rush?
Speaker 2:Because I don't wanna start a conversation. No. No. You can't. I'm on vacation.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're on vacation. Yeah. So so many thoughts. One, I had the thought that like so many people like people who aren't engineers that hire engineers will never know how good an engineer is because they could be an amazing engineer, like literally get anything done in short amount of time. But like, they won't give you all their time.
Speaker 2:They'll just like spread their time across other You know what I mean? I've Yeah. I've hired people like this who were incredible and they could turn something around very quickly when they needed to to just appease you, but you knew they had like four other gigs going on and they were just like, that's just they're good enough to balance all that and it's just kind of life. So like to to even ever be able to assess someone you hire from, like, a hiring standpoint, how good they are or how efficient they are or how smart they are, it's gonna be hard because the smarter they are, the less likely they're giving you all of them. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. It's a 100% accurate. I think this is this is the kind thing I'd bring up a lot where I feel like when it comes to questions about hiring, people are so like, there's so much anxiety around it that we can't ever have a conversation about how it actually works and what the actual dynamics are because people get, like, upset about it, and they, like, want the world to work in a certain way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they never hear about this stuff. And it's actually useful to hear about it because you understand how it works, and you can kinda align yourself with it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, people are always like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, this is how you hire great engineers. This the interview process you use for great engineers. That's to hire, like, a really great person, the thing you're talking about, it hasn't been to the interview process. The problem is they never even showed up to an interview process cause, like, they're not interested in you or, like, it's just Uh-huh. Root problem of hiring great people is to, like, be someone that attracts great people.
Speaker 1:It's not your stupid interview process. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. All the all like, most all of our hires were like, hey, you worked with somebody that was awesome? They're hired. I don't care. Like, we just hired people that other people had worked with.
Speaker 2:It's like you if you have one good person to start with and they worked with somebody they knew was awesome, it just kinda like trails out from there. And maybe that has its own issues, but I don't know. Yeah. We never really like did a lot of the Yeah. Post a job and get a hire that way like through interviewing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So more things I wanna say about this. So first of all, yeah. The there's like how good is somebody and how much of your focus are they getting or their focus are you getting? Well, there was one another thing I thought about this recently was just watching you at the terminal feud thing and like, what are you?
Speaker 2:Like, a thousand x engineer? Because that was insane. Just the amount I'm I'm just like puffing you up and blowing your head up at this point. But just like people don't understand how much was going on. And it's like a dumb thing, the terminal if you think.
Speaker 2:Well, it wasn't dumb. It was super cool actually that we did that and very newly appreciating it this morning after watching some of it. Just like the ability to juggle across so many vectors of things. I don't know. You're you're definitely one of those people.
Speaker 2:So you you've earned the right. I think I said this to you that day. You've earned the right to like talk all the shit on Twitter that you talk. I threw shit in again. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1:say that a lot. This episode is titled something.
Speaker 2:Something with shit in it. I know Chris.
Speaker 1:Because I I I, like, spent a lot of time in front of a laptop, like, on that Sunday and Monday, just, like, pumping stuff out. And I haven't done that in a really long time. And to be honest, I was, like, this felt it was good to like do that again and know that I can still do that. Yeah. But like, I don't wanna do that anymore.
Speaker 2:Like Yeah. Well, that's the other thing is I'm too old
Speaker 1:for this.
Speaker 2:The there's the aging process of like, you just like your twenties, you kind of use up a lot of your cares and like how much you're willing to just like throw yourself, but you get more efficient too. I mean, we've talked about that before. Like, as you age, you're
Speaker 1:That's quite that. It felt so it felt so low leverage to like just be like exerting my like it's effectively manual labor. It's like I'm exerting my raw Yes. Whatever. And it's like I have gotten to a point in life where I rarely that's like rarely the thing I need to do, you know?
Speaker 1:Uh-huh. So it feels bad from that point of view. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like this is a really hard conversation. I'm or I'm just having a hard time like vocalizing all the feelings I have around this. It it does tie in I think you kinda hit on like from the hiring standpoint and just like how people view labor, I guess. There's like the return to office stuff, the like fear of like it's just this like how do you control how much people are giving you or what they're giving you or like there's this dated thing and I don't know what to replace it with. What is, like, the modern because not every company can be SST where it's, like, three people highly aligned, highly incentivized to make this thing work in the long run.
Speaker 2:How does someone who, like, does need to hire people ever feel good about hiring people? What is the metric?
Speaker 1:The thing is, think that people are turning the wrong lever. And they're like, okay. I'm working on this thing which needs a lot of people, So how do I, like, deal with all this annoying stuff? That's a side effect of it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, like, people endlessly discuss how that's the case. You could also choose just to work on something else, you know? Mhmm. You choose to work on something that doesn't need a lot of people and, like, can live up to the ideals that you imagine you see other people doing. So a lot of the times we're like I I I brought this up the other day.
Speaker 1:Like, I think the further you get in, like, business stuff, the more your obstacles look like, in the in the beginning, it's like, how do I even make a dollar? That's impossible. How the hell do you, like how the hell is anyone making any money? Just getting something working at all is so hard. But then I think as you get better at it, all of your thoughts are around, wait, I can make money this way.
Speaker 1:I can make money that way. I can make money this way. Mhmm. How do I avoid the nine out of 10 situations that lead me to a bad place?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:The all of them will make you money. A lot of them make make you a lot of money, but you spend all this time, like, trying to avoid being put in situations like that where you're like, well, that seems like a miserable type of company even though it's it's successful. So that yeah. So for me, my focus is entirely on, like, how do I build something big without doing this other stuff? And the solution isn't to, like, find some way to avoid that, find some way to, like, do that better than everyone else.
Speaker 1:It's just, like, find a version of your business that doesn't need need any of that. It's still as big. Yeah. So but yeah. So I just don't try to help solve that problem or think about it at all.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't think there's a solution. Like, stuff just sucks after a certain size.
Speaker 2:Stuff just sucks. I just I have so many, like, tangential thoughts shoving into my brain, and I feel like the dumbest human being on earth trying to vocalize any of it. Like, I just started going into my brain into the birth rate problem and like population dwindling, but maybe that's good because we're gonna have technology and we don't need as many people in the workforce. I just there's so many of these like thoughts that are all kind of related, small teams, big teams. I'm just gonna stop.
Speaker 2:This is just like the dumbest version of some business podcast. You're saying some intelligent things and I'm like, but also I don't know. I'm just gonna stop.
Speaker 1:Hey, people like this dynamic. It's I think Liz said that we've accidentally landed on a very, very good format for our show and that you represent the audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So The dumb people. Like vocalize.
Speaker 2:Sorry, audience.
Speaker 1:Off it, man. I would say, you tend to vocalize
Speaker 2:your questions,
Speaker 1:you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right now, I'm having a hard time just even getting the questions out that are coherent. I have all these thoughts around this problem. It ties into stuff I've talked about in the past with like the fake jobs, like the economy's half made up and and like I've hired people and been on the employing end, I've been on the employer end and it all just is very confusing to me. I don't know what my question is.
Speaker 1:Can I bring up something that's related to this that we never talked about, but it upset a lot of people recently? Mhmm. Maybe a couple months ago. Keith Raboy, it got summarized in a really stupid way. It was like, there's some headline, like, Keith Raboy says never hire anyone under 30 years old.
Speaker 2:Did you say Keith Raboy? What did you say?
Speaker 1:Keith Raboy. I don't know how to say his name.
Speaker 2:Is it a name? Okay. I just wanna make sure it's a name. Okay.
Speaker 1:That's fine. Yeah. He's like a
Speaker 2:The audience would have asked the same question. People. I just needed to ask. Whatever. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He's extremely annoying. Extremely, extremely annoying person.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But, know, occasionally has has something interesting to say.
Speaker 2:Could you restate his question? I was I was so busy trying to figure out if you said keefer, like the dairy I I was so confused.
Speaker 1:Please do it again. I I
Speaker 2:think that's spelled kefir. Oh, kefir. Of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:Say it again. So Keith or Blake?
Speaker 1:Keith Keith. He he had this longer discussion on some panel and it got summarized as he says to never hire anyone under the age of 30. Mhmm. It's like pissed everyone off.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Of
Speaker 1:course. Because it's a headline. Mhmm. But if you look at and this is exactly a demonstration of what I mean by we are so afraid to, like, talk about this stuff because it upsets people so much. They miss out on understanding how the world works and, like, taking it to their advantage.
Speaker 1:Like Mhmm. You getting upset by this is is not helping you get rich. Like, it's just not. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what he describes is a really true thing, which is his point isn't people above 30 have no value or, like, whatever. He's like, generally, by the time you're 30 years old, the market has fairly assessed you. Like, you as an individual are probably not, like, getting into situations where you're like, oh, this is I deserve more than this. Like, you there's there's enough in your career. There's enough data points that there's probably plenty of bidders in the market to, like, get you a great outcome or, like, the the correct outcome.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And he's saying, when you're a startup, you can't play that game because there are always bigger bidders than you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So if you wanna find and people don't understand is we're gonna fund alpha. What what that means is, like, something the market is missing above what the average return is. Yeah. You have to go for people that are not being correctly evaluated by the market. And, you know, you know That makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 1:Typically. When someone's younger, they don't have lot of data points, so they might be punching above their weight and you don't know. So some people try to explain this, and then people are upset from another angle. They're like, oh, so you're just not paying people what they're worth. You wanna, like, you know, whatever.
Speaker 1:But the point here is is you are a startup with a fixed amount of resources to spend on something Yeah. And you are connecting with someone that is not able to find a job, right, or not able to find a thing, and you identify that the market is ignoring this currently very valuable person, and you, like, you know, you work with them. That's how my career started. Like, it was all situations like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and it technically is in line with what people say they care about. Right? Like, you want people say they want diversity. Well, that's what diversity looks like. You go find areas that everyone else thinks are useless, and you actually find talent there.
Speaker 1:That's that's how you do it. And, yeah, the they work for you for a little bit, and that's gonna, like, springboard them into being someone older that now is is properly, you know you know, valued. And the other thing I found funny was, like, they people wanna have both sides. They're like, oh, no. That means you're, like, underpaying people.
Speaker 1:Those are more. But then they're but then I'm like, don't people also argue that the older you are, the more you should get paid? So, like, yeah, the younger person should get paid. Like, it just doesn't it doesn't all make sense. So it's, like, this is the type of thing where, like, if you understand the world in this way Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you can benefit from that. You like know this is how people are gonna hire, is how you can find like these these like Adam just got up and ran away, so I don't know what happened.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry. What happened? Do you know what happened?
Speaker 1:Did someone fall down the stairs? Did
Speaker 2:you pee pee. And I didn't I didn't want you to stop. I wanted to let you cook.
Speaker 1:That was so weird that you just you like threw down your headphones and sprinted out. I literally felt
Speaker 2:I've like had to pee for five minutes. Something. No. I just have had to pee so bad, and it was like, cannot wait any longer. And but I didn't want to stop you.
Speaker 2:You're you're going. Did you keep going?
Speaker 1:But I did or did I did stop because you left.
Speaker 2:Oh, man.
Speaker 1:It was was gonna this made no sense. It was just jarring the way you left. I totally
Speaker 2:forgot what was talking about too. If ever I just take off in the middle again, just keep going. That means I just want you to finish your thought and not
Speaker 1:assume something happened, Adam. All stuff.
Speaker 2:I guess it doesn't make sense. You're literally talking to me. Why would you keep talking if I'm not here? Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 1:Anyway, just to summarize my points, yes, this headline is upsetting, but it's worth, like, understanding it beyond just getting upset about it. Because, like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The world does work in certain ways, and, like, it's not this idealized form of hiring you have in your head. And most idealized forms of hiring people have on their head is, like, I should walk in and and people should just hand me a job and it should pay, like, a million dollars. And, like, that's how that's how everyone should get. They just have this, like, unrealistic way of the world working.
Speaker 1:So it's worth
Speaker 2:unrealistic
Speaker 1:Some of these situations.
Speaker 2:On the other side too, like on the employer side, this unrealistic expectation that you should hire every person, they should be amazing and you should pay them next to nothing. Like there's just there's that competing world view on both sides that's not accurate.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And to me, it it it's always like people are like, well, this number is fair. Like, there's no such thing as fair. Like, this is just a very basic transaction between two parties where both sides are trying to get as most as they can without giving up as much as they can. And given all the leverage that exists in the world, it lands on a specific price, and that's where
Speaker 2:it is. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:If you're being quote, unquote, underpaid, it's not because your boss is evil or your employer's evil. It's that there aren't enough opportunities for you to, like, negotiate a better situation. And Right. That's what you need to fix, not, like, being, you should pay more for no reason. You know?
Speaker 1:It just it it doesn't give people more power if they're just getting paid more because the employer is being nice. Like, that doesn't actually give you any amount of freedom. It can be taken away at any point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The I'm glad you hit on the not the way the world works because I I do feel like all of my confusion and struggle to even voice coherent questions, all of that aside, I just wanna know what the reality is. Like, know there's some reality to all this stuff and maybe it's just too complex for there to be simple answers. But there there's something about the the way businesses and hiring and all that works that just still feels so messed up in my head and I can't sort it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The the other There's a of games
Speaker 2:that I played. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The other thing that comes up a lot is everyone's people are always like, I just wanna program for my whole life. Like, why why is the opportunity to advance, you know, to go into management or whatever?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Everyone sees this as, like, a fundamentally wrong thing, and the world shouldn't work this way. But the actual dynamics, I think, that lead to this are it's not what people wanna hear, but I think it is the truth. When you are hiring someone, again, you're always looking for that, like, oh, this person clearly is gonna be, like, incredible in a couple years. So if we, like, you know, get them in now, we get to benefit from this obvious growth they're gonna have. So a lot of people when they're interviewing you, yeah, they care about your current state, but they really look for your, like, growth potential Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, like, your own energy around that. And the reality is the more experience you have, the less that becomes the the the less you can, like, convey that. Right? Like, for me, when I was had had the experience I do now, like, where I might ended up landing was, like, so undefined. Like, I could end up, like, being, like, amazing.
Speaker 1:Like, the it was just, like, so I could see how when someone was talking to me, they would be, like, really excited by by that aspect. Whereas now, like, they kind of know like, I kinda know where I am, and I kinda, like, know where I'm going. Mhmm. So, like, yeah, I need to, like, be advancing in some place. So that's why a lot of people end up going into managing people.
Speaker 1:And, like, the reality is is if you're a programmer with thirty years of experience versus twenty, it's really hard to get that much more excited about the person with thirty, the person with twenty versus ten.
Speaker 2:And it makes sense. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And there's only so much work that really needs thirty years versus ten.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, it's all we wanna hear because we wanna, like we like programming. We wanna do that forever, and we wanna, like, be able to have a nice life by just doing that stuff forever. But this is just how it's just how the world is and I don't know. Like, you have to understand that and position your life properly.
Speaker 2:So you heard it here first. Dax says AI is gonna take your jobs. Basically, basically, he just said, that's what I heard. I do have to get off here because my kids want to come in my office and do something. So What?
Speaker 2:Destroy it? No. They actually want to clean it up. They destroyed it yesterday.
Speaker 1:They want to clean it up.
Speaker 2:Well, they have to clean it up before they can do something that KC has sent a stipulation. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:It's how it's how the
Speaker 1:world works around here.
Speaker 2:If we want something done, we have to incentivize. It's kind of like employing people.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah. And if your kids had other opportunities, they would they would pursue that. It would not clean up your office.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of alpha right now at their ages with nine and five, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny.
Speaker 2:Alright. Well, is good. Thanks for taking a break from your vacation
Speaker 1:to record. Yeah. It was fun.
Speaker 2:It was fun. Alright. See you.
Speaker 1:See you.
