The Psychology of Adam and the Strategy of AWS
I think it's like very targeted them. It gives them like another clue Just who that
Speaker 2:like burped uncontrollably. That was that was awesome. Yeah. So it was funny how I was like, hey, can we start an hour earlier? And you're like like fifteen minutes later, you're like, in thirty minutes.
Speaker 2:And then we ended up you just psyoped me into us starting at our normal time.
Speaker 1:Oh, I didn't realize you said an hour. I didn't realize you meant an hour earlier.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I sent it when you weren't even on Discord. Like, it was before you were even like seeing anything. It actually works out because I was gonna have a workout that I would have to leave in the middle of this for, but we pushed it back. Not because I wanted to, he wanted to. So all good.
Speaker 2:There's a ladybug in my light.
Speaker 1:Did you know British people call them ladybirds?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:What? Why? I think that's true. Ladybird
Speaker 2:Is a ladybug?
Speaker 1:Yeah. They call them ladybirds. Ladybirds in The United Kingdom. There you go.
Speaker 2:Wow. That's crazy. I know a lot of things that British people say after spending some time with David and Canadian people. Bash calls bathrooms washrooms.
Speaker 1:Wash Yeah. Yeah. Frank and Jay do that too.
Speaker 2:Oh, really? That's so funny. I guess, I don't know what British people call bathrooms.
Speaker 1:It's weird that Canadians are so different when they're so close.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess it's like the French versus the British.
Speaker 1:It's not in a French thing, right? Because like only part of Canada has a French influence. Quebec and the rest of Canada does not.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. But who who what was the rest of Canada?
Speaker 1:Okay. So I mean, historically, maybe all of Canada, they have French influence. But now, Quebec, like, that's where people speak French and like Mhmm. I think technically it's their primary language.
Speaker 2:So all the all the French people were kind of isolated to Quebec?
Speaker 1:I think so. That's where Montreal is. But like Toronto and Vancouver are just not French at all.
Speaker 2:Didn't know this. You've never been to Canada?
Speaker 1:I've never been to Toronto, which is where Frank and Jay are.
Speaker 2:I've never been to Canada. I've been in the water I've been in the waters of Canada. Does that count?
Speaker 1:Wait. Where have you been outside the country?
Speaker 2:One time I've been out of the country and it was like ten years ago. Casey and I went to, Mexico, the Baja Peninsula Of Mexico.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's like basically So you haven't left North America? No. That's so crazy. What's the longest flight you've ever been on?
Speaker 2:We went to Hawaii.
Speaker 1:Oh, Hawaii is pretty long. Okay.
Speaker 2:So we spent like a week in Maui. That was, I don't know, five hours from LA, I guess, the flight is. Something like that. Wow.
Speaker 1:Never been anywhere. I have not very well traveled either, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you've been to like Europe and such.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was recent. You went to Europe for the first India. Time in past
Speaker 2:What am I thinking? Always forget that you actually grew up in India or that you like were born in India, that you it just for some reason, you just it seems like, I don't know, your parents are from India, but you Yeah, I know. I I were born here. I don't know. I do I mess that up so much.
Speaker 1:There's like a threshold of when you come to America. Like, if you come before a certain age, you just end up being like, coming across American. And if you come after a certain age, like, people know that you're you're foreign.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How old were you again?
Speaker 1:I was like five.
Speaker 2:Five? That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you like, you have memories of I mean, clearly
Speaker 1:I do. I remember I very clearly remember a few, like, really random things. On the last day of school before I left, it was the last day of school, it like my last day of school
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:A bird pooped on my head. I remember that. And I remember the flight we took to America was on Lufthansa Airlines, was really really nice. It's a German airline. I don't know if it's still really nice, but it was really nice back then.
Speaker 1:And well, I guess I'm not sure because I was a small child on the first airplane ever, so maybe I thought everything was nice. But I remember they gave me a pack of Legos to build a thing. Wow. And I dropped one piece and I could never finish it because I couldn't I couldn't like reach it behind. I just remember the frustration of like not being able to reach it.
Speaker 2:That sounds like a nightmare actually. Like if you could craft a nightmare, that's
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's out there. But I remember having a good time on the plane. And then I remember arriving to America and very shortly after we went to a grocery store and I was just like, what the hell? Like, this is so crazy.
Speaker 1:Like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The aisle for the ice cream is bigger than any like grocery type store I'd ever been to.
Speaker 2:It's pretty America. I mean, it's I remember going to a grocery store in Mexico and just that feeling of like you when you realize the world is so much bigger than what you've known, like that there that people live completely different lives and like everything you just think is normal is just because you live in one little spot. I remember that feeling. That overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know anything about the world. And this is Mexico.
Speaker 2:It's like like two hours from San Diego. Like, we're not even talking like the other side of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When I went to Europe, I I was hoping for that feeling. I was like, I wanna feel like I'm really somewhere different. And I did get that somewhat, but it was still like pretty familiar. Like, obviously, lots of was different.
Speaker 2:Is the globalization diluting that feeling? Is like, is that gonna just trend towards less and less feeling like places are different?
Speaker 1:Definitely for like, in terms of the Western world, like, sure. It's Yeah. If you go look at a coffee shop anywhere in the Western world, it's like the same aesthetic across the Okay. Coffee shop vibes, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I imagine you get more of that culture shock if you go to Asia.
Speaker 2:Well, Teej is in Japan right now. I'm sure Yeah. That's a different feeling. I really want to go to Japan. I want to make that happen.
Speaker 1:Me too. Let's do a It's like terminal event there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that'd be amazing. Like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everyone in the audience is Japanese and they don't speak English. That would be so fun. How fun would that
Speaker 1:be? It's like,
Speaker 2:we're trying to communicate with like, I don't know.
Speaker 1:We have to do another meme that doesn't involve speaking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. We'll be mimes. We'll just do like a mime show, pantomimes, white faces and all. Is that bad for you to put white paint on your face?
Speaker 1:I I guess not. I don't think anyone would be that mad about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's interesting. Is it bad that I asked that? No. Okay.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:It's a valid question.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I just have these intrusive thoughts and they're like questions like that, which is like just trying to understand what is offensive and what is not. It's a genuine question of mine. Like, I I just feel like I had a very narrow upbringing like I've done. I've not experienced a lot of diversity and culture in my life.
Speaker 1:No. Here's the thing. There's a lot of stuff that is don't think there's a lot of stuff that is offended, but I think there's always people that'll get offended by some stuff. So now we all just pretend Sure. That stuff is offensive because we know someone out there would get offended by it.
Speaker 1:Also, it's funny.
Speaker 2:This was a fight not a fight. This was a conversation Casey and I had two nights ago last night. I don't know. Very recently when I got back from New York about like, know there's things we disagree on. Politic I I hesitate to say politically because I don't know what policies are involved here.
Speaker 2:More more socio something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not yeah. More social. There are things that we just like, she is on one end of the spectrum and I am on the other. We're probably not on the far ends. It there's always further on these spectrums.
Speaker 2:But we are kind of like on either side of a center point. And I was trying to like just have healthy conflict and talk through it and I realized I can't even like vocalize what bothers me about I I think it's the biases in tech. I think in tech specifically, we've seen some really just stupid versions of this like this kind of culture of offended by everything. I don't know. I don't want to offend people by saying that or maybe I do.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It just feels like tech is maybe like even more so. It's like an exaggeration. For some reason, our industry latched on to like this very you can't do that because we all decided that's a thing you can't do or say. It feels like that's heavy in tech and I think that shades maybe my opinions of certain things.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I don't think it's random that it was that it became that way in tech. I think tech one of the cushiest industries for a while. And when things get cushy, people get to focus on problems that aren't really problems that kind of make up Yes. Stuff.
Speaker 1:And and you you see as the economy got harder, like, all that stuff kind of flushed out of tech. So Mhmm. Yeah, I think it's a good natural thing that happens. Like, It's weird, like you have such a cushy job and you imagine people are like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna like really enjoy this but we just need to find like the next problem to work on even if it's like kind of a made up problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's the Is it the hard times create
Speaker 1:Yeah. Think it's probably
Speaker 2:Good, man.
Speaker 1:It's probably related to that Yeah. That quote. It definitely feels that way. But it's 61 degrees here which freezing.
Speaker 2:Have you got your jacket yet? Are you wearing a I
Speaker 1:woke up and my throat is like, just doesn't feel great. This is like actually sick, I might just be getting something from her. But
Speaker 2:Did we all just get COVID in a New York Maybe?
Speaker 1:I have no clue. It's funny, like after I got back when we were leaving from New York, I was like, I just don't I just don't wanna be cold anymore. Like I don't I just I have like no tolerance for at all. And I came back and I literally like just stepped outside to like enjoy the heat. And now it's cold here again too because we randomly get like cold fronts every
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Every now and then. And I know for people listening, you're like 61 degrees, that's that's the perfect weather. Yeah, if you like dress for it, but
Speaker 2:If you like put on pants
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I don't wanna put on pants and I don't wanna put on I know
Speaker 2:this about you. More so every year, like, just having spent some time in New York, you really don't wanna put on pants. Like, it's kind of a goal of yours and it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, it's like the moment I'm changing my whatever for the weather, then it's not good weather anymore. That's how I define it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The weather needs to bend around your needs. Is there a place where it never gets even like into the sixties, where a 70 is like the minimum all year? Is there even a place?
Speaker 1:Probably straight up in The Caribbean, I imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna have to be it's gonna have to be closer to the Equator than anything in in America, right?
Speaker 1:I'll I'll tolerate this because it doesn't get that hot here when it gets really hot. I imagine it gets really hot close to the Equator.
Speaker 2:It doesn't get really hot in Miami. I guess it's all relative but for me, it gets
Speaker 1:Well, like places in Florida get way hotter than Miami, so
Speaker 2:Really? Is it just about being on the East Coast like the Atlantic somehow keeps it Yeah.
Speaker 1:Being by the water? Like Orlando is is like way worse than Miami in the summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's interesting. I know this about Orlando having like been there a few times. I can remember it being miserable hot in the middle of summer when we went there. We had someone we worked with in Orlando.
Speaker 2:The fact that Disney World is plopped right in this like miserable place from a weather standpoint is just hilarious because like people travel from all over the world to go to Disney World. And if they could just picked a place that was nice all year round, like think of all the like, additional joy families would have had. It's just kinda like collective joy over decades.
Speaker 1:You're just not supposed to go there in the summer, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess. Like, is the park I bet the park's just way less busy.
Speaker 1:Summer vacation.
Speaker 2:Well, that's summer break. That's the thing. Like, kids are off school. I'm sure they're super busy and it's just disgusting. They've got those like mist machines where like you just walk through cold mist because it's so miserable out.
Speaker 1:Oh, man. There's a there's like a place that me and when we me and let's go out at night to like, you know, go out and like dance or whatever, there's a place that we go
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, wait. Slow that slow that down. When you go out to go you go out and dance?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We haven't done it in a while but, you know, it's something we do occasionally.
Speaker 2:This is so interesting. I I just have never done that before. But I'm I'm now very curious about that lifestyle.
Speaker 1:I don't think you live somewhere where that's even an option?
Speaker 2:They do a lot of square dancing where I live. Yeah. Have dance Yeah. It's just very like country.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. For us, it's not that. So it's this it's this really cool place that is kind of it's like mostly outdoor. It's like it's like a building but it's like pretty outdoor.
Speaker 1:But obviously, as the night goes on, there's a lot of people, they are moving around, it gets really hot. And recent not recently, maybe in the past year or two, they installed these, like, pipes or like these Yeah. These There are these pipes all over the dance floor and they blast out nitrogen like every ten minutes or so. What? It's like blast the the bat blast the crowd with nitrogen and it feels so good.
Speaker 1:Nitrogen's like super cold. It's like liquid, you know, liquid nitrogen like immediately Yeah. Yeah. So they have like a tank of that and then like you can't see anything like the whole they also gets covered in like complete white fog. You can only see like right in front of you and it feels so good.
Speaker 1:Now, whoever thought this is a genius? Like
Speaker 2:That's super interesting. Nitrogen, it's not bad to breathe in a ton of nitrate. Guess that's like 70% of our atmosphere, I guess. Yeah. So Right.
Speaker 2:I guess it wouldn't be.
Speaker 1:And it feels great. So that's what we do to solve the
Speaker 2:That's how you cool down gear. When you're on the dance floor. I have so many questions about dance, but I'm not going to right now. There's things to talk about. There's like, our our first love, AWS.
Speaker 2:So many new headlines.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I keep seeing stuff. And I wanna ask you, like, how much of this stuff creates new use cases, like things that are possible that weren't. So there's that to talk about. We should probably talk a little about terminal stuff, just New York. Just got back from New York.
Speaker 2:We could talk about psychology because I have all kinds of things I wanna say about psychology. And I know you're gonna just eye roll me to death, I don't even care. I don't even care. I'm gonna do it anyway. I just listened to part of the first episode of AWS FM where you came on.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to like hear our first interactions. It's so funny. It was like October '21. Somebody just asked me, I think in New York asked me how long we had known each other. I didn't know exactly.
Speaker 2:I looked it up. Might put a little clip from that in the episode. Who knows? We'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean I mean, Liz was telling you guys that she remembers my first meeting with Frank and Jay because I was like Yeah. Doing it. Yeah. And she like, was just funny how formal
Speaker 2:You guys were
Speaker 1:dressed everything was. Not dressed up. Well, I had a shot Yeah. On which isn't the case anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is funny to have like actual recordings from Okay. Let's talk about AWS stuff. What have you heard?
Speaker 2:Yes. Okay. So I know there's a ton of CloudFront stuff.
Speaker 1:How much?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think most of it I don't care about, but I want to talk about it and make sure I shouldn't care and there's like not reasons I should start caring. So there's that. I know like Lambda got node 22. There's some like other kind of periphery things that and there's probably things I haven't even heard at all that you could tell me.
Speaker 2:So wherever you want to start.
Speaker 1:What about event driven Active Directory domain join with Amazon EventBridge?
Speaker 2:Oh my god. No. Are you serious? Oh, there is one I want to talk about. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Didn't know what any of that was. Me either. I do want to talk about on the CloudFront side, you can, like, send CloudFront logs to CloudWatch now, which is so hilarious that that, like, how many years into AWS? And it's like, oh, you know that service that's got all the logs in it? You can finally send your CloudFront logs to it.
Speaker 2:It's crazy that this is like finally a thing. You don't have to build all this infrastructure.
Speaker 1:I was kind of confused. Like, what did you have to do before I get dumped it into S3
Speaker 2:You dump them in an S3 bucket. That's literally it. And now, not only can you send them straight to CloudWatch, you can also have them sent to s three in parquet format. So like we have a big data lake at Satmuse. You can just like pump your CloudWatch stuff in ready to consume.
Speaker 2:That's that's like huge for me just like quality of life. We you've seen what we built to do like Yeah. To just like do some basic web analytics on our stuff. It's like this crazy Kinesis stuff that we had to build out and now we can just like click a button in CloudFront or add it to I guess it's not in CloudFormation yet. But you guys maybe could get it sooner because it it is in the APIs, obviously.
Speaker 2:So maybe Yeah. Yeah. Maybe SST could enable that soon.
Speaker 1:We were talking about building a provider that just can just make AWS calls through SSDs. So we can just like wrap any API call
Speaker 2:we need instead of waiting
Speaker 1:for the trickle down all the
Speaker 2:The downstream things?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, that's getting native to SDK, then has to get into Terraform, then has get into Pulumi, then we get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So That'd be cool. Yeah. The CloudFront updates, it's funny if you like in our team chat, there's just me posting in all caps being like, yo, look at this, like a bunch of times. Because there's a few things here that actually the one CloudFront thing is now you can specify a CloudFront function to change the origin a request is going to. This solves yeah.
Speaker 1:So many This solves so many problems for us that I can't even remember. Like, all I know all I can remember is, like, every couple weeks we're like, man, it'd be so much easier if we could do that. Or like, oh, we
Speaker 2:could Well, use yeah. Because you just have to create all these stupid behaviors and then there's behavior limits and all this I remember all
Speaker 1:these issues.
Speaker 2:Now So we can just do that in a CloudFront function. Didn't even see that headline.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I I think I don't see the point of creating any origins at all anymore in CloudFront because you can Yeah. Just redirect to any And then so
Speaker 2:Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. You mean behaviors? Because you still have to have the origins, right?
Speaker 1:No. You can redirect to any origin.
Speaker 2:But you create You have to configure the origin first and then you can send request You can redirect to any URL. Oh, any URL? Mhmm. Interesting. So you don't even have to define the origins in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think you can still define the origins if you want some of
Speaker 2:like the additional and all
Speaker 1:that stuff. Yeah. All that stuff. But, yeah. So we're like so the CloudFront Workers CloudFront Workers also has a KV store for sorry, CloudFront Workers.
Speaker 2:That was a while back, right? The CloudFront Functions. I never used it but If
Speaker 1:you pair these two things together, you can just build your own because what we've always wanted was we want the ability to just build our own router. We want our own logic.
Speaker 2:It's CloudFront Literal.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. And the KV store, we can we can put in values like, here's a list Yeah. Of all the static so if it matches that, we can redirect to the s three origin. You know, all that weird stuff we could do for Ash show.
Speaker 2:We
Speaker 1:had to like create a behavior for each file and there's a limit of 25 and all of that. Like all that I think can go away. We can build like, so we have like a router component in SST where you can like create one CDN and then mount like different paths in different places. Mhmm. That was also limited in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Now, like this thing makes it so we can have basically unlimited paths. The other big one was, like immutable deploys. So each deploy, we can keep the static assets around in the s three bucket maybe even keep maybe even like do a function version. And then depending on like, if you yeah, normal request, you redirect to you like forward to the latest origin.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But you can like easily like roll back or like do preview environments or do all that stuff with a single CloudFront.
Speaker 2:You don't have it's like you don't have to use the blue green stuff which was kind of a pain. Or is it the blue green stuff?
Speaker 1:Depending, it helps some of that. But I think our issue right now is people that did like PR environments
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You had to do deploy new CloudFront distribution for each each PR which is kind of slow.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's very slow.
Speaker 1:So now you can share one and you can do like a sub domain thing. So you can say like, prnumber.dev.mycomputer.com. And then this CloudFront function can see what sub domain it's for and then direct it to the right function behind the scenes, the right s three bucket behind the scenes. Yeah. So it just allows for and it's probably got bigger list because like I said, we'd like constantly are like, we don't have enough control, we don't have control, we don't have control.
Speaker 1:And now we do, so we can build all kinds of interesting things, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I saw CloudFront, you can put like point at VPC resources now, like as an origin, which is cool. We had to do some stupid stuff with like API gateway in between like our private stuff and CloudFront. So now we could kind of do it with that if we wanted. I saw the gRPC thing.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I would use that. What is that like it's like WebSockets? What is that? I don't even know.
Speaker 1:I'm kinda confused about that because I'm like, I can't remember if I thought gRPC was like a TCP protocol and not an HTTP one.
Speaker 2:I thought it was like a Google created thing. Did I make that up?
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. But it's it's an RPC protocol that can go over different transports.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Like, it
Speaker 1:can go over straight TCP. I think can go over HTTP two. So I don't under I just didn't understand why it wasn't possible before. Oh, I see. I don't fully understand that.
Speaker 1:It's one
Speaker 2:of those like, they gave us support for something we thought we already had or didn't realize we didn't have. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other funny thing is AWS Aurora Serverless P2 now scales to zero. I saw that. Which is funny because like we put in all this work in supporting RDS because Yeah. The minimum cost for Aurora for dev environments was just like way too high. Now it scales to zero, so it's like
Speaker 2:But it's still the data API, right? So it's still
Speaker 1:We wouldn't use any more. Yeah. Because we we got rid of needing the data API entirely because we have
Speaker 2:Oh, even with Aurora serverless.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Because we have that tunnel thing now built in, so you can just I don't know if you saw this but
Speaker 2:So you can just you're just connecting to it through oh, I guess you could just use like normal Postgres connections to Aurora serverless. It doesn't require the data API? For some reason, I thought
Speaker 1:it require the API. So Oh. Yeah. Our our new component for RDS Postgres, it just lets you turn on data proxy. I think that's what it's called, the connection the connection Oh,
Speaker 2:data proxy. That's what we use. Yeah. For stat mes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we have like a proxy true field and
Speaker 2:Oh, so this is actually good now. Like for the dev environment case. It was already good for like, we use it in production, but like, this is actually a good thing if, for instance, you were teaching a course and you had a bunch of students that needed a cheap server or serverless database.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I mean, the reason we switched to non Aurora is it's in the free tier. So if you just put up SST AWS Postgres, that's like a free tier thing. Yeah. But now this thing scales to zero, it's like, you know, decent option.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And our tunnel fixes all the need for the data API, like, just do a normal connection. We like we send the traffic through through our tunnel. So, so those are two, like, really big ones. The Aurora scaling is zero is a little confusing for me. It seems like teams competing against each other Oh.
Speaker 1:Inside AWS. Yeah.
Speaker 2:For reasons that we won't talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We can't share it yet, but I'm sure we'll be able talk about it in a few weeks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's also like it's almost like too late. It it just feels kind of like we've all figured out ways around the problems now and it's kind of like it's what you're describing that you've already kind of like built all this stuff for RDS and it's like, well, now it's too painful to go back. I mean, I I use serverless v two. Like, we use it as stat muse and I'm not gonna stop using it.
Speaker 2:And this won't really affect us because we just You
Speaker 1:won't scale a zero.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And like it doesn't it's a drop in the bucket. If we do spin up dev environments, it just it's like a drop in the bucket for our bill. So we don't care.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think we we always intended to have an Aurora component, so this probably just motivates us to go and Yeah. Report all this stuff in it. Yeah. So those are two big ones.
Speaker 1:The other thing was, s three, zone one supports appends to files. Okay. Which seems like really random and niche. It kinda is random and niche.
Speaker 2:But it's it's like it's kind of like you don't need to do anything on like an EBS or an EFS volume anymore. Like, can just use s three for like these cases where you're just like logging
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Stuff, high traffic stuff. I think of like what Prime always builds. Like, he's always building these systems that are like appending to huge log files. And I feel like you could use s three now instead of needing to have like local storage attached to your compute, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So even the thing we built, over the weekend, I was saving the snapshots, I was saving the events that came through to s threes because s three is an easy database. But now I've just append it. But that said, this is not really meant for general purpose use because it's in express one s three one zone Whatever the name
Speaker 2:is Yeah. The one zone access, which is like basically loses some redundancy. You lose some nines of
Speaker 1:Which really only makes sense for like analytic Like, I think this is this is so targeted at all these people building databases on top of s three, like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like Clickhouse, for example, or like, any of like the the company WarpStream they built on top of s three. Mhmm. So I I think it helps those and kind of they can optimize a little bit for it. It's not unlimited, like, it's so constrained to some degree, but I think it does help, some of those use cases. Yeah.
Speaker 1:People building databases on top of s three. I think we're just gonna see more and more of that. It's kind of a way to build a serverless database really easily if you build it on top of s three. Mhmm. Obviously, a lot of cost and performance implications, but for some things, it it kind of does make sense.
Speaker 2:Alright. Let's, let's take a quick break. And you want talk about terminal while I pee?
Speaker 1:While you pee?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I gotta pee. That's why we're taking a I
Speaker 1:just talk about terminal by myself. Like, I don't understand what you mean.
Speaker 2:I mean, like, talk about like like do an ad. Like a terminal Oh,
Speaker 1:I see. I see. I see. Okay.
Speaker 2:I'll be right Alright.
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Speaker 1:We just do things that typical coffee companies do, like selling coffee over SSH or playing Family Feud in New York with a bunch of developers for a live audience. You know, there's typical coffee company things. So if you wanna buy some and support us, open up your terminal and type in sshterminal.shop, you'll get a really cool coffee buying experience. We're even putting out a monthly box. We call it our cron box.
Speaker 1:It shows up every month. And some months you'll get custom blends, funny bags. It's just gonna be a good time. If you wanna support us, would suggest subscribing to our monthly cron box. The first one will probably go out in the next month or so.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of exciting ideas for that. That's our ad. Okay. Waiting for Adam to be done peeing. Amazon investing another 4,000,000,000 in Anthropic.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming that's all in, like, credits.
Speaker 2:How much had they invested before that?
Speaker 1:It's kinda crazy. 4,000,000,000. I think a lot, but I don't really remember.
Speaker 2:That's, that's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:$4,000,000,000? What's funny is this announcement is Anthropic names AWS, its primary training partner and we'll use AWS Trainium. I think AWS Trainium was like one of the worst names ever by then. Just makes the whole announcement sound so corny. Will use Trainium.
Speaker 2:Sounds like a board like a board game, maybe.
Speaker 1:Trainium?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It sounds like that. Okay. Yeah. Just rhymes with the board game, whatever.
Speaker 2:Is that all the big AWS announcements we wanna talk
Speaker 1:There's a lot. There's just a lot of little things.
Speaker 2:It's not even Reinvent yet. This is just Reinvent. I am hopeful for like some big ones. Like, I don't know. I maybe they could make I feel like they're they're making good strides despite all of the focus on AI and all of their going communication.
Speaker 2:Yes. I feel like the the product teams still exist, still working on the products that matter. Not that AI doesn't matter at all. It's just like they've way overcorrected and trying to catch up or whatever. I I am hopeful, like, some of this stuff like the router and CloudFront that you can now build at SST, I feel like the missing piece to, like, make Cloudflare less necessary in some kind of hybrid stack is just the WAF, like, accessibility.
Speaker 2:If they could just make the story around like protecting your endpoints better and cheaper, then it's looking real good. Right? I mean, I know it's like Cloudflare's whole business that they they started with but
Speaker 1:Yeah. I just don't know how good the AWS WAF is. Like, I just it's so invisible and like I'm like, I set it up like, what is it doing? Is it work? It's hard to tell.
Speaker 1:The other thing is, I do think they made some improvements to that because CloudFront integrates with the WAF properly and now that it can, like connect to like your private ALB and stuff Mhmm. Like that kind of expands. Like, as long as long as you put as long you put CloudFront in front of it, you basically effectively get get the WAF.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, there's like I guess there's two things on the protection front. There's like shield, which is very invisible. It's just like, we shield stuff. Take our word
Speaker 1:for it.
Speaker 2:Then you can pay $3,000 a month to get like Shield Advanced or whatever it's called and Yeah. You get them like a direct Well, it's basically like you have like this direct line and like immediate support in the event of a DDoS attack. It's it's just like the white glove version. It's just that there's some new tools. And then you get a bunch of credits toward WAF, which is the more hands on thing that isn't invisible as much where you configure rules and there's all this like Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Ability to configure rules, how you want to manage blocking things that you know you wanna block. But it's expensive. It's like a lot of people don't wanna use it because Yeah.
Speaker 1:That that that feels like critical Yeah. Stuff that
Speaker 2:much of it
Speaker 1:It doubles
Speaker 2:your CloudFront costs basically. I think that's the simplest way to describe it. Like, it just it's just pretty expensive. So Yeah. I mean, most of our cost at statmuse, it used to be that our database cost was by far our most cost.
Speaker 2:Now, as we've continued to grow, like our CloudFront and WAF costs are a huge huge chunk of our bill.
Speaker 1:So there Yeah, there's that. The other thing I would love to see is some kind of largely impacting thing on Lambda, specifically on like efficiency. I also just burped. What's going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah. What's going on?
Speaker 1:Something we ate
Speaker 2:three days Like how you're talking like how Cloudflare like doesn't bill you if they're not actually use like, for requests.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They'll only do CPU time. So that's one option. And that feels like way too much of a departure with how Lambda works. I think Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That would be obviously insane. If Lambda announces CPU billing, it just that's like so crazy, like that just totally changed the economics
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Of it for for everyone in in a very very large way. But even just the function concurrency thing would be a good one, which I think fits more more with their model. It seems like they are working towards that. I don't know if it's gonna come if they're gonna announce
Speaker 2:it. Say more about function function concurrency?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you if you have a lambda function that gets a request. Mhmm. And it makes let's say, it makes a call to Dynamo and a Dynamo call takes, let's say, a hundred milliseconds. In those hundred milliseconds, it probably could have handled another request off that same instance.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So right now Yeah. Yeah. A single Lambda instance, like a container can only only handles one invocation at a time. But this would let them let it handle multiple and you're trading off the isolation for probably a giant improvement in performance and efficiency.
Speaker 1:So your bill would be a lot lower because you would have fewer concurrent invocations going on. Yep. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of people complain that languages like Go, even Node. Js are like super optimized for doing concurrent work. And when you put them in a Lambda, they just don't do concurrent work because they only handle one request at a time, which is fine for async events because those can be bashed.
Speaker 1:But for serving API requests, like, yeah, that's you just can't do anything there. Yeah. So I would love to see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I I was pulling up some actual bills to just like make sure I was speaking from current knowledge about like what matters. Our Lambda bill is just not very much. But like I I don't know how much it would matter to me if they made big improvements to the pricing around Lambda. Like I I mean, I don't know how much we would care.
Speaker 2:Not that we're the only type of use I
Speaker 1:think it's less about like, as you're already in the Lambda mindset, I I think it's more around the point at which a container becomes more cost efficient with massively Gotcha. Shift, if that's the so it just makes more sense for a lot more workloads to to be on it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So like anyone that's at that threshold, it now covers a whole set of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. We we spend more on WAF.
Speaker 2:This is just interesting. We spend more on WAF than we do on Lambda.
Speaker 1:That's really crazy. Lambda is our highest highest bill.
Speaker 2:Oh, really? Interesting. I mean, I was wrong. Our database is still way more expensive than our CloudFront. I mean, CloudFront's our second biggest cost but our our RDS costs are like three times the next closest cost, which is CloudFront.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Databases are expensive, turns out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But, yeah, that's all the AWS stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:AWS stuff. We'll see
Speaker 1:how much more because the re:Invent's not till December, I think, or maybe December? Yeah.
Speaker 2:We got a couple we got a couple weeks. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be curious next episode, we should talk about like, we should make one one big like wish list. Like, what is the number one thing we'd like to see and then we can like talk after Reinvent.
Speaker 2:Like, did it happen? Did any of it happen?
Speaker 1:I'm like, I it's so weird. I feel like it's they like solved all the things. We have this new WebSocket service, which is actually very good, the AppSync Events thing. This CloudFront problem solves like another major point. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So at this point, like, our
Speaker 2:There's one other thing. We're not gonna talk about,
Speaker 1:but Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's one other thing.
Speaker 1:But there's Yeah. Like, at SSC, are we limited by this stuff? I don't think so. It doesn't feel like I
Speaker 2:still think the one thing on the AWS stack, like the one thing that's like the Achilles heel for at least for I work in the consumer web space is just the I still feel like putting Cloudflare in front of your endpoints is necessary in 2024
Speaker 1:Yeah. That yeah.
Speaker 2:Unless unless you've got enough of a bill that like you don't care to eat the cost. But even Cloudflare is still just better than like configuring WAF. I feel like it's just it does stuff by default, it's just better. And I we've seen it like with our auth endpoint. Like, I know if SST auth could just like bake in a nice prevention mechanism for people just spamming your endpoint, that would be a great thing you guys could add that it's just kinda like not a thing you can add to a default thing right now in AWS.
Speaker 1:I think the reality is putting Cloudflare in front is just gonna be kinda required based on how the internet has has evolved.
Speaker 2:And I guess that's fine. It's not even like I used to feel really weird about mixing AWS and other resources, but just kind of the world we live in. It's I'm accepting it more and more.
Speaker 1:And with SCTV three, like, put a lot of effort in making the DNS part, like, adapter based. So even if you're creating an AWS component for the when you where you specify the custom domain, you can specify your DNS adapter and that could just be Cloudflare. Yeah. So a lot of people just use alias for everything and then just use a DNS adapter there so that Cloudflare is handling.
Speaker 2:Yeah. DNS cool. Terminal and I was gonna move our I was just while I was in New York, was like this little thing that's been bothering me. I wanted to move our domains all into like our Cloudflare account or something. Just a terminal owned account.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't support a lot of the TLDs, that was a bummer.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I wish Cloudflare as
Speaker 2:a registrar would just flush all
Speaker 1:that out. Because we've got the .sh domain, is that why?
Speaker 2:Dot shop isn't supported. I couldn't move our main terminal shop
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:And maybe not ..sh. I just stopped once dot shop wasn't supported. I stopped looking.
Speaker 1:Let's see if they support .pizza.
Speaker 2:Yes. Okay. So I feel like I never feel bad talking about like ideas or plans about terminal stuff on our podcast because it is like a subset. It's a very small subset of people who are aware of terminal is like our audience on here. So it just feels like, congratulations.
Speaker 2:You listen to our podcast. You get to learn some, like, secret sauce. I would love love This is not me telling the audience, this is me telling you. Like, I would love to sell like a $10,000 pizza but like Prime delivers or whatever. I just think that's hilarious and it'd be so fun and we could get a sponsor to do the box or whatever.
Speaker 2:I just think it'd be so fun.
Speaker 1:$10,000 pizza, we will deliver it to you. It'll be frozen and we'll we'll make it at your house.
Speaker 2:We'll put it in the microwave for you
Speaker 1:at your house. It would just be funny to like have him literally carry it like on the
Speaker 2:plane. Just like the video the YouTube video would be the real winner from this whole thing is like just Prime getting on a plane holding a pizza and like his headphones on and then like all the way the journey of like taking this to someone's house and then cooking it for them. Oh, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So good. Like, he would he'd have to get one of those, you know, those pizza delivery the insulated pizza delivery box things. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd love that like when he lands in this person's city, he gets in like an Uber and somehow we have like a pizza delivery thing that can go on top like a terminal themed pizza delivery sign. Like I would just love This whole thing would just be so fun. Yeah. I don't even know if it's would make money. It'd just be like we might spend the whole
Speaker 1:budget just doing stupid stuff with it. But Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's kinda kinda the terminal way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Always get to zero.
Speaker 2:Although we did make money in New York. Let's talk about New York. We just got back. What is terminal? What are we doing?
Speaker 2:I I love it. I don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Well, while you were gone, I explained we're just a very straightforward coffee company doing normal coffee company things. Just normal. Normal coffee company things.
Speaker 2:We got to see the rosary. That was cool. Monter's so great. I just love that whole family. I just wanna, like, hang out
Speaker 1:with them they're now. Hustlers.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Is anything you wanna say about New York? I don't know. We haven't really, like, had a
Speaker 1:Zoom that I deep super think it well. Like, yeah, like, the event, like, everybody was laughing the whole time. Like, I was I couldn't tell if I was laughing just because I was involved in it, but like my stomach was like sore.
Speaker 2:You you were sweating. You were busy. Was it sore from anxiety or or laughter? Because No.
Speaker 1:I was just laughing It the whole it was just it was really funny. And I realized, like, I missed a lot of the jokes because I was, like, working Yeah.
Speaker 2:On stuff.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Because I watched some clips afterward and I didn't remember that stuff happening. But it seemed like it went really well. Here's, a weird thing, though. We were looking at the check-in list and we sold 310 tickets and about 200 people came.
Speaker 1:Like a 100 people who just bought tickets and I didn't show
Speaker 2:mean, they you never know, like, they don't live in the area, but they thought I'm gonna buy a ticket because it's $30 and like maybe there's something else people that buy tickets will get out of the deal. I could see that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which reinforces the point that we always have to charge because people would just claim spots and not even when we charge, people did that.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. It's not that we need like that we're really hoping to make a lot of money off ticket sales. Just it is kind of like a barrier there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We didn't spend all the money we brought in, which is interesting.
Speaker 2:It's called a profit. Actually turned a profit.
Speaker 1:Is like the first business in maybe I was gonna say maybe ever. This is the first time I've ever turned a profit. This is a fair thing. This early. We should have
Speaker 2:spent We'll lot of we'll we'll find a way to spend it.
Speaker 1:We'll spend on the next thing.
Speaker 2:We'll deliver some pizzas.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, yeah, it just went really well. I'm excited about doing it again. The funny thing is is like obviously for the next time we do the same thing, we'll polish some of the tech. But I'm like, I don't wanna polish it too much Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because a lot of the funniness was Yeah. Yeah. It's like, do I really wanna fix the math?
Speaker 2:Right. Like That's that was kind of one of funny things. Yeah. It's like part of the lore now.
Speaker 1:I fixed some of the stuff that was unnecessary, that was extra stressful, but
Speaker 2:Just just fix yeah. Just fix the stuff that created pain for you. Not necessarily stuff that, like, makes the production value better. Who cares? I think it is what it is and it's fun.
Speaker 2:But just like make it not so stressful for you. That would be the goal, think. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it was cool how many opportunities there ended up being to like mess with the scoreboard live.
Speaker 2:Like Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I have to do that a lot which is which is pretty fun like
Speaker 2:That's funny.
Speaker 1:For the people that don't watch it, we would do stuff like if someone said an answer that was so ridiculous, we would just very blatantly add it to the board where like, we would show up with another answer and then we'd reveal it and the other team would be really pissed off. Lot of the times, I would replace an answer with something someone said right before we revealed it. So Mhmm. Yeah. Just a lot of those little jokes was ended up working out really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd like before the next one, I'd like me and David to because I don't have much now. Like, I've I feel like I did my part in terms of building the apps that needed to be built. There's there's probably things that could be fixed, but I'd like David and I to get like a day to just like do your admin panel and make it better and easier to work with and nicer looking. I know it doesn't matter
Speaker 1:Nice looking.
Speaker 2:Well, it's gonna look nice if we do it, but like just make it more ergonomic, faster for you to do what you need to do. I don't know where it's not just a bunch of big green buttons. I feel like we can make it a little more useful.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny. The the buttons were fine. The buttons were great. It was just Yeah. It was more of the the other stuff, like editing
Speaker 2:the Yeah. Like the typing and like I your bet you didn't spend much time like trying to get
Speaker 1:No, I didn't. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The tabbing to be real smooth and in the right
Speaker 1:order and all that. We have to do that. We have to make our like our audience app really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It needs some work, yeah.
Speaker 1:And make it so that Twitch can use it, like log in with Twitch and use it. Mhmm. Mhmm. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. It'll be fun. We'll do it again. We'll invest another few days into
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if your company is interested in sponsoring the next one, please reach out.
Speaker 2:Please reach out. I bet we have some people listening that have the ability to make those kind of decisions. So So
Speaker 1:we'll upload it to YouTube and we'll probably get a bunch of views. And yeah, think overall it just got a pretty large amount of reach. And next time we have a lot of ideas on how to like maybe even 10x that reach.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And and improve like the way we put shine on sponsors, the sponsor impact. I think there's ways we can do things even there that are better, more more enticing. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:So that was terminal.
Speaker 1:Now you wanna talk about your psychology.
Speaker 2:I do actually really badly. Can you tell?
Speaker 1:I'm just
Speaker 2:I'm very excited. I wanna talk about this because I think the main feeling I have right now is like, how did I not know this stuff? How did I not even know these were a thing? And it's not horoscopes. Like, this is actual science
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And psychology. Oh, wait. I can't say it's science. You'll just be like, you just It's science.
Speaker 1:It's not it's not science, but I I believe it's real. What's not science?
Speaker 2:Psychology. Oh, psychology is not science? On whole? You can go like broad stroke.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Broadly. Yeah. I don't think science.
Speaker 2:What about like wait a minute. Oh, now I'm challenging all of my assumptions. What about like neuroscientists? That's science.
Speaker 1:Why why is that the word science in it?
Speaker 2:What? Why does it have the word science in it? Like, if it was science, it wouldn't have to have the word science in it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're not out here like physics science.
Speaker 2:But there is physics involved? Our brains have electricity? I don't know.
Speaker 1:No. Okay. Yes. Obviously, neuroscience is like probably science.
Speaker 2:Okay. That is probably science. Thank you, Dax. All the neuroscientists can can now step back. They were all screaming into
Speaker 1:We the talked about this before. I just I just don't believe that you can apply science to complex systems and, like, yeah, psychology and human behavior is like pinnacle of complex systems.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We have talked about this before. I forgot you have like this whole thesis that psychology is fake. Damn it. This is gonna be a really hard
Speaker 1:fake. I I just think we we need to perceive it differently than stuff like physics which has
Speaker 2:Okay. But wait a minute. Physics is kind of science being applied to complex things and there's like actual
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Evidence that we don't know we're talking about physics either. Like
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:The world doesn't even know how to like comprehend quantum physics yet.
Speaker 1:It's complicated things, yes. Like we do yeah, quantum physics might be in the complex category, yes.
Speaker 2:It's it's like we thought we had physics figured out with classical physics and then we realized, oh, actually, it's way more complicated complicated and and complex complex and we don't actually understand anything.
Speaker 1:No. I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Could we just say this about science broadly? I feel like what I'm trying to get at is maybe this is just science. No. No. No.
Speaker 1:No. Most of science deals with very complicated situations that are not complex. As in, if you scale them up, they don't get more crazy. So
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:If you understand the rules of basic kinematics like a ball rolling down a hill or like, you know, hitting each other to have momentum transfers.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:If you scale that up to a billion balls, the rules don't get
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:A quadrillion times more complicated, right? Just more complicated, but Mhmm. Sorry. This is it doesn't get more complex. It's more complicated because there's Yeah.
Speaker 1:More calculations to But it's still the same fundamental laws and and and they work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Like you could just add more and more computers to do more and more of those Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So whereas, something like economics, you understand the behavior of a single human and their incentives. You had a billion humans and now, like, none of those rules,
Speaker 2:like Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Are remotely So much more predicting what's gonna happen.
Speaker 2:Yes. Okay.
Speaker 1:And I feel that way about psychology as well. So That
Speaker 2:Okay. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that studying psychology and understanding things isn't useful and like discover you can discover a lot of truth that way. I just think mentally we need to separate it from the type of answers that science can give us.
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask you this then. I'm just trying to follow your your logic here. If you're dealing with a single person and their singular past and behaviors that might have resulted from that past, is that not the single ball hitting the other ball in this situation?
Speaker 1:No. I don't I don't I don't think so because even that is like an extraordinary complex thing. Like Oh, Ultimately, all of all of your if you like really think about it, all of your psychology
Speaker 2:It's billions of interactions in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah. In your life and like it just the cells in your brain interacting with each other in billions of ways. Like a lot of psychology is like it should it's all technically biological, right? Like, it's just a result of chemicals, chemical interactions happening, but at such high complexity that you get really crazy behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think it's just very hard to, like get scientific answers from it.
Speaker 2:I got it. So I guess now I realize I don't need to defend it as science because that doesn't do anything for me. I just I wanna separate like
Speaker 1:It could still be really helpful like Yeah. That that's my
Speaker 2:I wanna separate the psychology stuff from like horoscopes. It's like there is a spectrum here where non science things get more and more detached from actual reality. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But similarly, horoscopes can also be helpful.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm so confused
Speaker 2:think there's no there's
Speaker 1:no reason to separate this from horoscopes. Like they Damn it. Can also not be scientific but also somehow be helpful, you know?
Speaker 2:I guess. Yeah. No, I I see that. But now I just Everything I say I feel like is like I'm being all woo woo and you're just like, uh-huh. That's good at it.
Speaker 1:That's actually the opposite that's the opposite point I'm making. I'm saying that these things aren't scientific, but it doesn't have to be scientific for it to be useful or helpful. I think we try to We we basically think everything helpful is scientific and we try to shove everything into the scientific bucket. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And it just is awkward and like leads to weird things. I think it's literally okay to be like, this is very abstract and it is like woo woo, but it helps me understand stuff about me, my life, whatever. Like that's
Speaker 2:Why yeah. Why I'm very sensitive right now to like this being perceived as just I mean, horoscopes. And I don't know why I'm putting down the horoscope people, but there's something something about this I have a feeling that I can't put words to because of my very scientific psychological understanding.
Speaker 1:Like, yes, obviously, is the literal position of the planets impacting your life? Probably not.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So like, it's not it's not that.
Speaker 2:There's some difference and I don't know what it is. There's some difference in my mind between, yes, that idea that like when you were the day you were born somehow like influences all of your personality and all this. There's some separation between that and like looking at thousands of people and their like very specific past, actual things that happened and saying, oh, you fit into this very clearly defined archetype and it's because of x y z things that happen to you that you're more likely to be this way in these certain settings. I feel like that is act that's not maybe it's not science, but it is grounded in something. It's not people just like making shit up.
Speaker 1:My only point is is if you with horoscopes, if you ignore the astrology part of it and just read the horoscope itself, it's actually exactly what you're describing. Whoever wrote the horoscope is a result of understanding
Speaker 2:It's same way about like Myers Briggs and personality tests on hole too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's just like understanding all patterns and things that exist and horoscopes like use that to their advantage to like phrase things in a way that are or to identify patterns that are common so that people can like be like, oh yeah, that does describe me or I do relate to You're right, like there's a spectrum and horoscopes are more towards one end. It's just, you know, like I can kind of see the value in everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How do you view mental health and therapy and I guess like all of these concepts, useful tools, copium.
Speaker 1:I think like everything, it's there's they're they're definitely useful. I think as a society, we've maybe over rotated on some of this stuff. Like the reality is is like like every other field, 95% of therapists are not very good and 5% are very good. But I believe that. You know, there's like all this content out there about therapy and like we use This is one of Liz's theories we should have her on.
Speaker 1:Do her little theory segment. Yes. Well, she's talked right about how how much like therapy speak has just dominated vocabulary. Mhmm. We watch a bunch of reality shows and it's like blatantly obvious.
Speaker 1:Like people, when they talk to each other, they're just using like therapy speak. It's like words they learned in therapy or like therapy related media and content. And it's like, they don't really even know what they're saying, they're just kind of like using these phrases that are like accepted as this is the way you should describe these certain situations. Yeah. And she always points out like it's it's not sexy.
Speaker 1:Like it's Like it just it just makes things like less and less like It just makes things like more and more, like dorky and it's just becoming a less sexy society.
Speaker 2:Okay. That's fair. Well, now I'm gonna be very self conscious about every word I say from here on out.
Speaker 1:No. But like I said, I This is like I'm describing I I'm I'm okay It's not like don't have an extreme view, I'm just saying there is this very real dynamic, but, you know, it's not like the underlying thing is totally garbage.
Speaker 2:I think you are probably more okay with those things than I am. I I have a problem with like pseudoscience and with, I mean, we've talked about it on this podcast that I am very like, I overweight science and its impact in my life.
Speaker 1:Because science is your new religion. Yeah. It's
Speaker 2:Yeah, basically. Yeah. I'm a Scientologist and Tom Cruise is my favorite actor and that other guy that was in Grease or something. Those guys, they're the best. I wish I wish I could meet them.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm just no. I'm not a Scientologist. Okay. Well, I'm gonna say some things that now I'm self conscious about, not because I think you don't view them positively, but because I don't view them positively and now they're being associated with those things and Oh,
Speaker 1:my god.
Speaker 2:Anyway, this all traces back to my childhood. Let's start at the beginning. No. I'm gonna say some things that are very real that are like, I know these are facts. And now I know other people also have these same facts in their life.
Speaker 2:Okay. So facts about me. I okay. In a highly emotional situation where there's someone I care about that I have a relationship with and they're emotional, I have no emotion. In fact, the fact that they have emotion and the fact that they're expressing negative emotions like sadness or grief or anger, that actually suppresses any feeling.
Speaker 2:This is not like I read this in a book. This is like I have always known. I have this thing where I turn into like a deer in the headlights, like a vegetable. Like, I am literally not a human being for those moments when someone is expressing strong feelings in my presence or towards me. I become this, like, completely unemotional being.
Speaker 2:Now I know that's a thing. Like, other people experience that as well. And this is I think this is the broader point. It's not about having terms or needing like someone to tell me what's wrong with me and how I can be better. It's about knowing that there are other people.
Speaker 2:This is not I am not a snowflake, and there are other people who experience life like I do. And some of the things that I'm not getting in life that I could get, like deeper relationships, are attainable. There's like a path that other people like me have walked down. That's it. That's the bottom line.
Speaker 2:And I think the fact that I ended up in the place I am in life, in this very specific job, had pretty good success in career, like, that is also tied into a lot of these things. And that's why I like to talk about it on a podcast like this where I think there are other people listening to this podcast who are also like me and have some of the similar struggles, and they've had a lack of emotional connection with people and had a hard time building relationships over their life, I would hope they would hear something like this and they would also find out they're not alone. They're not the only person. They could also have these things in life that I just thought were kind of off limits to me. I just thought I wasn't capable of having these some of these things.
Speaker 2:Or I've always said things like, I'm just not a romantic. I'm not someone who values relationship. I don't think those are actual facts that can't be changed. That's all. That's it.
Speaker 2:I didn't even say any psychological terms. Look at me. Dismissive avoidant. I wanna say it all. I wanna attach myself.
Speaker 2:Sorry. Now, just in case somebody can hear those words in the Google room.
Speaker 1:But this relates to your childhood because you probably were in a situation where you needed to be like the neutral person? Is that how that works?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the explanations and I'm still very early in learning these things. But and I want to be sensitive because I don't know if my parents listen to podcast. I don't want to like this is not about them. But it basically means like the type that of person that I am on this front, like in terms of my emotional health, I'm a dismissive avoidant attachment style.
Speaker 2:Do with that what you want. Everyone else just heard Leo or whatever. I'm a Scorpio. But if you go down the rabbit hole a little bit and you read about that type, it basically says that as a kid, I learned through adaptation that it wasn't valuable to express negative emotions. So basically, I only express positive emotions.
Speaker 2:All negative emotions not only do I not express them, my brain has this ability to like shove them in places without my knowledge. It's like completely subconscious. But basically as a child, I learned nothing good comes from expressing negative emotions. And that does play into my parents and how they my role in our family and how they treated me. Basically, I learned like to be sad outwardly or to be angry or frustrated or any of these negative emotions, it doesn't do good things for me.
Speaker 2:Like, I get bad things out of that, so why not just only show positive emotions? That's basically how I was formed, I think.
Speaker 1:I see. So I I Googled dismissive avoidant attachment and I got the little Gemini answer on Google.
Speaker 2:Are you kidding? Oh, Gemini. I thought you talking horoscopes. I was like, wait, what?
Speaker 1:I don't know. The the ghoul AI thing. There's nine nine bullet points. I would say you mentioned eight of the bullet points.
Speaker 2:Oh, really?
Speaker 1:The last bullet point, you didn't mention.
Speaker 2:Hang on. I'm dead.
Speaker 1:That you are prone to affairs.
Speaker 2:I so I am not prone to affairs. I wanna go on record. I'm a very loyal person, actually. What's this? I'm looking at the some traits that isn't as nice.
Speaker 2:Emotional distance, yes. Difficulty with intimacy, double yes. Self reliance, 1000%. That's the thing I'm learning about myself. I don't build relationships very well because I don't need them.
Speaker 2:And I, in fact, like I have figured out a way to just be completely emotionally regulated in life by myself. And this is why I've always felt like I could just be alone for the rest of my life and there not be any other humans in the world and I'd be totally fine.
Speaker 1:Is this related to how you rewrote all of David's tailwind?
Speaker 2:Probably. Yes. I've always I've always said I'm terrible at working with others. I I think it's all really I don't know. Like, secretive behavior?
Speaker 2:Yes. Check. Conflict avoidance? Oh my god. Am I conflict avoidant?
Speaker 2:You know these things are true about me. Right? This isn't just a horoscope. Yeah. No.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Actual I facts about me as a person.
Speaker 1:No, it is just like a horoscope. What are you not understanding about this?
Speaker 2:Because I don't value horoscopes, or I look down on them and I need to work on it. I gotta figure out how to accept that they're also a tool that people can use because I
Speaker 1:A horoscope is exact They've identified patterns and they are surfacing those patterns
Speaker 2:to people. That's true. They really just like tied this to real patterns of people and then the the whole star thing was just like, it'd be fun if we like use stars as a metaphor or something.
Speaker 1:If the patterns didn't resonate, like they just this whole thing wouldn't work.
Speaker 2:So, why did they involve like the position of the stars? That's where they lose me. Like, I don't know
Speaker 1:Yes. I I don't think the position of the stars is literally true. I think it's like a historical artifact. But it's just one of those things where like, there's a lot of things that are old that have really silly things associated with them, like the position of the stars and all that. But it doesn't mean that where they got to is completely dumb also.
Speaker 1:Like there's
Speaker 2:lot of ways of dumbass write the people who write the horoscopes I don't know who those people are. Horoscopegraphers. The people who write horoscopes, they, you're saying, actually are looking at like the types of people Like, when they write a horoscope, they're not just like making every line up. It's like they think about an actual person and they describe these traits
Speaker 1:Well, how how do do it? Right? I'm I'm not saying they're like following a scientific method, I'm saying that somehow they are arriving at the same place without doing this academic process. Because if you read if you read horoscopes, they'd sound like this. They sound exactly like this.
Speaker 1:And they maybe add a bunch of mystical writing to it because they attach to the stars, but
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So this is not a problem of psychology being lumped in with pseudoscience. It's a problem of me viewing pseudoscience the wrong way. I should view it through the same lens that horoscopes aren't bad. They're not all made up.
Speaker 1:It's anything that old, it's like really hard for it not to have value because it survives all the way to our Yeah. Current That's And a good it's hard to do that without it being somewhat correct. And the other thing is, you just have to look at at the bottom, what are both these things doing? There's describing various human behavior. They're both doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like it's popping through a similar process. Wow.
Speaker 2:I You've changed my view on horoscopes. Like I I actually see what you're saying. You're saying all these things are just tools and they all are describing human behavior and that could be very helpful for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And like they they
Speaker 2:To find other people or
Speaker 1:yeah. You have to be so for you to like absorb all this, you have to like one, be in a place where you're ready to think about it and receive it. Two, have to come into a format that for you, based off of like who you are, was delivered in a format that you could like believe and accept.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1:For other people, like, I guess the format needs to come in like this more spiritual mystic way and that's why people are into horoscopes.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so interesting. Like, I literally need it to be science so that I can accept it. Like, I want psychology to be a science so that I can Like, it now It checks my box of like, I will allow science to influence me and my behavior. I won't allow other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And that's fine. Like, it's it's just as arbitrary for the people that need it in like this more spiritual format.
Speaker 2:Okay. This helped me a ton because now I don't feel so self conscious. I I like I really I have a problem with like pseudoscience and I need to move past that. I have a problem with spirituality and that goes all the way back to I I could go down many bunny trails Rabbit trail. Rabbit holes.
Speaker 2:What is the phrase? I mess that one up constantly. People who've listened to me on the internet for like the last few years have heard me say bunny rabbit trail like a 100 times and I never I stumble around it every
Speaker 1:single Rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:I'm like rabbit hole down a path with rabbits. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I've done
Speaker 2:that so many times. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:The, the other thing to that kind of maybe helps understand this kind of thing, at least for me is when I like really understood this is there's like this grandma wisdom type of thing. Like, you know, like they say stuff that doesn't really make sense, but it's like ends up being correct. There's just so many examples of certain foods that cultures eat that they've been eating for hundreds of years. And it turns out the specific ingredients, like, would be poisonous if they weren't paired with this other ingredient. Wow.
Speaker 1:And you're like, there's no way they, like, did some kind of test and, like, understood the chemicals and, like, intentionally neutralize it. There's just this, like, emergent wisdom encoded in this is what you eat and it turns out it's a perfect balance of all the nutrients you need and like, you know, all the all these different So, yeah, it's like someone didn't sit there and like analyze it and say this is why we're doing it but somehow we're still doing the right thing.
Speaker 2:Interesting. It's
Speaker 1:like It's this other thing It's like, we see it with animals all the time too. Like, animals, like, just naturally have all this, like, these instincts that do certain things that are, like, correct. We understand why they're doing it. Like, a cat licks itself to clean itself. And we understand, like, it's good to be clean, like, it avoids disease and all these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They don't understand that. They're just doing it, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a lot in life that is correct without it actually making having to make any sense or needing to know why.
Speaker 2:I guess I have a question for you. I'm doing like, I'm going on this new journey because I do feel like there's things in life that I'm lacking or that I'm just missing out on, things I could really enjoy that and the people around me that I care about could enjoy that I've just not tapped into yet. It's like these areas of growth. Do you think about like areas you wanna grow into in life? Or do you feel like it more Yeah.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. Just give me your philosophy on this because I do feel like you're just kinda like you're just like good. You're just like good with where you're at. You're just good with You don't have this like pressure to like self improve or whatever. And I wanna know how and and why.
Speaker 1:No. I think it's it's not like a I don't think that in itself is a goal. I think I I was talking about I think maybe the last podcast when we were together in person, I can't remember when we talked about this. I told you like when I was like in my like like 26 or 27, just I felt like physically felt my brain finished developing. And at that point, was like, okay, like a lot of my bad habits, like, went down a lot.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty like happy with the way I do things and perceive things, so
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I just wasn't speaking that much. Yeah. Anymore, like everything felt like correct. Also, like, I got into a relationship that was like, you know, correct for me and and all that, happened around that same time. So Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just haven't thought about myself as much. I think Liz probably went through something similar too, like around that same age, she was a lot more figuring that stuff out. And I would say in the last like three years or so, two to three years, she's been a lot more like, okay, it's all figured out. Happy with who I've become and like, you know, it's it's there. So it's just like, think eventually everyone Hopefully, everyone eventually like hits that point.
Speaker 1:And the goal isn't to like, I need to become someone that doesn't care about improving, it's more that
Speaker 2:No, right.
Speaker 1:You improve, you like fix the things that you're worried about and kind of naturally stop thinking about them.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to internalize all that with my situation.
Speaker 1:For you, maybe it's just a little later.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, I I mean, there was it an was like an acute situation that like I mean, when my marriage was on the brink of collapse, it's like a wake up call that like things aren't healthy. There's still like areas of life that aren't what they should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's easy to ignore.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that was probably the bigger impetus for me. But it has me so excited about this whole area of life that I don't know, was never excited about before and I've I could I could have easily coasted through the rest of my life in the state I am. I'm pretty happy with who I am or just our life, the last fifteen years since I kind of like lump you always say the last ten years that you've used Arch and Neeleven and whatever. For me, it's the fifteen years that I've been married is my whole adulthood.
Speaker 2:Like, I left my parents' house into me and Casey's first home. So like, the last fifteen years is my life. And it could have gone on for another thirty. And I don't think like that would have been a horrible life. It's just I feel like I would have been missing I would have looked back and realized there were things I could have had that I just thought I couldn't and I'm optimistic now that I could have them.
Speaker 2:Anyway, anyway, that's all. I'm done talking about psychology and Scientology and all the ologies.
Speaker 1:Astrology. Maybe you should get into astrology. Maybe you should go hard the
Speaker 2:other way. I mean, now you have me thinking So there is this part of me too that thinks I've always said I'm just not a spiritual person. I think I mix spirituality and emotional things for reasons I won't dive into. I think like in my life, spirituality and emotional manipulation were highly entangled. I'll say that And I think I've just shut off both things from my life entirely and said, I don't need those things.
Speaker 2:I would rather not have those things. I I have this part of me that really wants to like have a spiritual side of my life. Like, something about that too that's very intriguing to me. Right now, I'm kind of like trying to tackle like just depth of relationship and feeling like I can actually have real connection with people that's not what it's always been for me, which is like very transactional and like unemotional. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's the thing right now I'm thinking about. But there's this like future Adam in like my fifties or something that I wanna like try out some religions or something. I don't know. I wanna like have some semblance of a spiritual life that feels like I explored that and I at least gave it a shot. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not like I need it. I don't feel like I need it right now, but I want to like know that I don't want it. Does that makes sense? I don't know. I want to like give it a shot.
Speaker 2:Give it a real college try.
Speaker 1:I think I don't I don't think you're gonna con I don't think I would be really surprised if you conclude like, oh, I don't need it at all. I think what you'll find is what you imagined would fit on the category of spirituality actually ends up being a lot broader than than you imagined. Like a Like, it does not it does not have to do anything with religion, it's just
Speaker 2:No, it's true.
Speaker 1:It's just like, it's more as opening your mind to perceiving situations and not just in like a singular way. Like, the thing we just talked about, like, there's hard scientific ways to understand situations and then there's like this other way of understanding situations that also is like totally valid and ends up in the correct place. And it's like being more open to that and like liking and appreciating those explanations as well. Like I I would bucket that as
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. I shouldn't have said religion. I do think like it'd be fun to like dabble in some religious, I don't know. For some reason They
Speaker 1:they help you appreciate this because a lot of times, religions are literally wrong. Like they're literally not true. Like you can like you take it literally like there's
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's like very easy to like dismiss it. But then you also have this weird contradiction where somehow it's still a useful thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right. I think
Speaker 1:like just understanding that contradiction and being it helps you appreciate like something. I don't know what that thing is but in my head that's like what this spirituality thing is. The fact that I appreciate this thing that I can't really explain.
Speaker 2:That Yeah. The the way I view it
Speaker 1:right now category.
Speaker 2:Is like we joke about the science thing. I really have kind of like put myself into a naturalist worldview I think, like a very humanistic like everything is concrete and can be explained. I think I've put myself into that worldview as like a way to resist other worldviews that I was once a part of. I think I think that's what I really wanna try and like explore is not being this sort of naturalist. So like, that's how I view spirituality is like the other side of that coin where there's anything else than just what I can touch and feel and taste and whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Deep. We went from like cloud front to like all this other stuff, whatever. I don't care. I'm not gonna apologize. Thanks for listening to our podcast.
Speaker 2:It's weird. I don't know what it is yet but
Speaker 1:I think this is why people like it.
Speaker 2:I hope so. Because it is what it is and people keep listening. So I guess, yeah, guess they don't hate it or they would stop listening. Oh, man. I don't know what our sponsors are gonna be someday.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be like BetterHelp and Next. Js. Some weird combination.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's so funny. Well, I think those that's not a weird combination. Think if you're using Next. Js, you are likely to also need better help.
Speaker 2:Brought it Alright.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, man.
Speaker 2:And it has been numb since. And I cannot understand why I have one finger that is numb.
Speaker 1:That's weird.
Speaker 2:And I know exactly when it happened. Like, I know So I can like trace it back and say like, what happened right leading up to that? What happened for the days leading up to that? Like, what is the thing that would cause my pinky to go numb? I don't understand.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but my my index finger, my my right hand right
Speaker 2:here Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I got I was in high school playing something. I remember getting hit in a weird way and whenever I would stretch out my arm like this this area of my and I swinger would just be numb. And it was like that for like five years. It like improved by like What? Like like half a percent every single day.
Speaker 1:It took like five years for it to properly go away. I can still like kind
Speaker 2:of That's insane.
Speaker 1:I can still like kind of feel a little bit, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess I will say it's not my whole pinky. Like, I could get more specific. I do think it's just part like, it's almost like one quarter of my pinky, but it is such a weird sensation and I don't love it.
Speaker 1:Use it to your advantage.
Speaker 2:Well, like, what? Get pierced? What do you mean?
Speaker 1:I guess I guess so. I don't know. Like Okay.
Speaker 2:I'll look into that. I'll see what I can do with a numb pinky.
Speaker 1:I remembered what I wanted to ask about. You're talking about potentially moving.
Speaker 2:That's on the podcast now.
Speaker 1:Alright. It doesn't have to be so literal. Just were you were imagining what it would be like to potentially move. I'm not saying you're gonna do that, but Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not saying I could do yeah. Oh, okay. Well, here's what I'll say. Having just spent a few days with you guys in New York, I'm increasingly like realizing this is my shot at having friends in life and it I just wish so badly that we all lived in the same place. Like I wish we got to, like, do everything together.
Speaker 2:Not everything. That sounds so dumb. Just like see each other every week. And then like when we have a dumb idea, just make it that week or make it next week. Like, I I just that is such an amazing dream to imagine.
Speaker 2:And then I realized like, I could have friends here. Like, we could figure it out. We could find people and like but it just feels like the Internet gave us this chance to like meet people that we really could be friends with because we had so much so many reasons to be friends. And it would be so fun if we just all our families were close and we all knew each other and I don't know. How okay.
Speaker 2:I'm not
Speaker 1:gonna say that. These these
Speaker 2:things I say not on the podcast.
Speaker 1:I know exactly what you're gonna say.
Speaker 2:You know exactly what you're gonna say. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No. I mean, Mila's talking about this all the time. I think she straight up said she's realizing the only thing that matters is being close to friends. And she's like, that should just be the number one priority and we should figure out.
Speaker 2:Yes. I remember I saying that on the forgot. We talked about this. That Liz, that phrase, that is a phrase that I didn't remember Liz saying that or that you told me when I said that. But that is a feeling I've had is like, what else matters?
Speaker 2:Like, who cares? In like fifty years, am I gonna look back and be like, I'm so glad I, whatever, maintained some stable life. Like, no. I'm going to wish like I had spent more time with friends, and that's the thing that I it's an impossible we've talked about it. It's impossible.
Speaker 2:Like, we're all settled. We all have our lives. We all have reasons that it just doesn't make sense. But man, I just wish there was some way. And maybe it is just like short term.
Speaker 2:It's like we we spend a week or two weeks together every quarter and like that's that's it. But that's better than nothing. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's that's what we have now. It's just like we imagine what it would be like if because we know people that are like in a very fortunate situation where they're like really close friends with their neighbor or like even just like in the same neighborhood.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that just like totally changes so much.
Speaker 2:It's like the Friends TV show. Just like
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Just hanging out, just knocking You just show up and it's just like normal.
Speaker 1:And this is maybe a little bit different for you, but both me and Liz had this situation at some point. So it's not like theoretical, we remember having it and then just it's gone.
Speaker 2:It's just gone.
Speaker 1:All of a sudden. And it feels like we don't know what the hell we're doing if we're not optimizing to bring that back. Like, yeah. It just feels like what else matters. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, I mean, we haven't We don't know how we're gonna solve it, but it's clear that making decisions based off of that is a good way to make decisions. I think that's kind of Yeah. That's as far as we've gone.
Speaker 2:It feels like it should be weighted
Speaker 1:its own.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It should be weighted heavily and same. And and this is something Casey and I've been talking about. So, yeah. Man, I really gotta find out the roster of people to listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2:Not that no. I don't wanna be a different person based on who's listening, but I just wanna know like, there's some conversations I would wanna have before I go too deep on this conversation on the podcast. It's not that I don't want people to know things, it's that I would want to talk to them before I said things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway. Whoops. Chris, could you cut that out? That's the other thing. This is weird moment when like something is said on here and I'm like, I actually might want that out.
Speaker 2:But I can't say, would you cut that out? Because then it's just like a joke because it's gonna stay in there. I guess I can just talk to him afterward. But I'm fine. We we didn't cross any lines here.
Speaker 2:This is fine. Okay. How do we land this plane? The same way we do always, which is bye. Yeah.
Speaker 2:See you. Thanks for talking. Bye.
