Rita Kozlov on Building In Public, Cloudflare's Birthday Week, and How Long Software Actually Takes
Adam couldn't make it today. He did this really fun thing where he was like, oh, I can't make it on Thursdays anymore. Can we reschedule to Wednesday? And then I rescheduled to Wednesday and he goes, okay, cool. Can't make it then either.
Rita Kozlov:He doesn't like me, that's okay.
Dax:That's what it seems like and we're just gonna go with that. He he really we talk about this all the time. He hates conflict and he hates like people, like this type of situation. So it would bug him a lot if that's the conclusion you came to. So that would actually be great.
Rita Kozlov:Great. I I'm gonna assume that then.
Dax:Yeah. Today we have Rita joining us. Rita works at Cloudflare and Cloudflare just had their birthday week last week where they announced a bunch of really cool stuff. And we've been friendly for like a while now and this is kind of overdue. Hop on here and have a little chat.
Dax:So how's it going? How are you doing? Are you are you tired from all the birthday week stuff?
Rita Kozlov:Launching is exhausting. Yeah. But it is also really fun. So a little bit of both. I had the weekend to recover and so now I'm mostly pumped.
Dax:Nice. Yeah. So when you when you all plan something like this, when did like how long of an effort is it? Is it like a six month effort? Like how long are you are you in like, okay, we're prepping for birthday week mode?
Rita Kozlov:It really depends. Mean, everything that we announce and especially this past birthday week came from user feedback and things that were already on our roadmap because users have been asking for logs, users have been asking about workers and pages convergence, users are always asking for better performance. So there there are things that in some ways, you know, we start planning for it quarters ahead of time because that's a part of our road map. But then, you know, we we start kind of planning the week generally about a couple months out, about a quarter out, and we start to look at, okay, well, these are all of the things that are happening. These are the things that are launching.
Rita Kozlov:What's kind of interesting out of that and start to piece together out of that. Okay. These are the stories that we want to tell during the week. This is what we want people to come away with. And, you know, refining that and sometimes that leads to new announcements that emerge that were like, you know, we weren't planning on doing that but maybe that makes sense for this week and yeah.
Dax:Yeah. It's always funny for me to see all of that because I am so bad at keeping anything quiet. Like when I'm excited about something, I just start I mean, you guys see what I'm like on Twitter. I just start posting about it right away. So like, I'll make like 3% progress on something and I just want to announce it already.
Dax:So, yeah, it's still like hard just keeping things under wraps because I'm sure it's really exciting.
Rita Kozlov:I mean, to be honest, we're the same way. Yes. So first of all, we build in public so much. Docs are open source. We have our Discord.
Rita Kozlov:So I if you're paying close attention, nothing that we announced last week would have come as, like, a huge surprise. Right? And, yeah, you'll you'll see in the weeks leading up to myself and Matt Yeah. And Dane and a bunch of engineers on the team kind of, you know leaking sounds so dramatic, but really we're excited about what's coming and we we can't shut up about it. So some companies are stealthier.
Rita Kozlov:We're we're really bad at stealth. We're like, everything's out in the open, but if you're not paying that much attention, then, you know, this is your time to kind of tune in and we really try to then spell out, okay, here's the stuff that launched.
Dax:Yeah. It's funny because I think I guess now that you say it like that, this maybe is more common than I imagined because, like, AWS has their reinvent thing once a year, But it's become such a common thing for everything to get announced beforehand. There's a good term for it, it's called pre invent. Everyone's like, oh, pre invent season is here and it's when you like hear about everything before the actual launch. I guess, yeah, I guess everyone is just the same and
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. The
Dax:closer it gets, the harder is to keep shut.
Rita Kozlov:You know, I I really admire companies like Apple where everything is, you know, super on lockdown and, you know, part of me wonders is that something that you mature into? But realistically, I think it's either something that is or isn't in your DNA and that's just really not who we are.
Dax:Yeah. It's funny that it's funny you bring up Apple because I was thinking thinking about them too. I have this weird I had this weird thought the other day where I'm like, man, I don't know anyone that works for Apple. And that's not exactly true. Like, I have here and there run into people that work there, but I feel like people join there and they just disappear into a void and like you just don't know anyone that works there.
Dax:You never hear about a single thing. So yeah, how do they pull that off when they're like also one of the biggest companies in the world?
Rita Kozlov:Number one rule of fight club.
Dax:Yeah. It's I don't know. I I definitely couldn't work there because I would be like, guys, look. Look at this thing. Yeah.
Dax:I think both strategies work because obviously you get you get the big single day impact when you're quiet. But then a lot of these things, especially developer tools like people might get I think it's different than like you see an iPhone and you're and you're like, I'm gonna buy it. Like you see it, you're gonna buy it, you know? Whereas developer tools like you see it and you might think it's cool but like, you know, you're already you're already working on something that you're not gonna like drop everything and switch to it. So I think the transaction times are longer.
Dax:So just like having stuff trickle out and staying on top of people's mind, think, does make a lot more sense for for dev stuff. I think it's okay.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. I mean, the other thing too is we want feedback on stuff that we're building. So to your point, right, an iPhone, you ship it out and it's out there and that's it. And you can ship software updates, which also if you're like me, you're maybe always a little bit behind because
Dax:Yeah.
Rita Kozlov:Who has time for that? But yeah, you you ship the iPhones, and they're in people's hands, and that's it. Versus, for us, a big part of the reason that we let people play with stuff early or we preannounce it. We do a lot of betas is because we want feedback. And by the time that we're launching something, and this is something that also is actually us developing a bit of a new muscle and something that's changed a bit over the years is, yeah, we we take a bit more time to bake things in to receive feedback.
Rita Kozlov:So the thing that launches on the day of the innovation week is much readier, has gone through a few iterations. Previously, we would, you know, first announce something and then then put it into people's hands and then iterate from there. There's pros and cons to both approaches and still depending on the announcement, we, you know, we like to have both in our arsenal. But a lot of the feedback and I I think especially for developer tools, it's just so much more fun if something is announced and instantly you can NPM install or whatever. Yeah.
Rita Kozlov:First thing you wanna do is like, let me play with this. So I think that's much much more interesting and a lot more fun for us too because then on those announcement days, we get to kick back and look at the Discord and people are asking questions and or or they're like, look Ma, I built this thing. You're like, I just announced it. How did you already do that?
Dax:Yeah. It's funny. I think no matter how much progress we make, whenever we launch something and someone actually uses it, I'm always like, really? Like you actually used it? Like it's always surprising, you know, that you get like people building real stuff and yeah, it's always surprising how far people go with it in such a short time.
Dax:Especially with stuff that, you know, because like I said, we we like we're we're like very public with everything we build. So even when stuff isn't ready, we'll see people grab it and like take it kind of like way too far, like maybe more far than I would say like you should even be doing right now. But yeah, so there's always people that'll do that. It's super motivating and easy.
Rita Kozlov:But I I think that that's kind of the fun part too of working on developer tools. Sometimes you don't even announce something at all. It's just an API and someone will find it and someone will build on top And of I forget what the there's a name for this law.
Dax:Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's like if you put something into the API, someone will use it and become a permanent thing, like, no matter what, even if you don't intend to. Yeah. I I don't there's a name for it.
Dax:Don't so I'm blanking on it too.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. Matt, the second he listens to this will be like, Rita, it's obviously this.
Dax:Yeah. I I know all the laws. I just never remember the names. They're all familiar. But, yeah.
Rita Kozlov:You don't get to work it out and sound extra smart.
Dax:Yeah. Okay. So you've been so how long have you been in Cloudflare again?
Rita Kozlov:I've been in Cloudflare for over eight years now.
Dax:That is so crazy. Okay. So I guess eight years ago so there's obviously been this effort from Cloudflare to build, you know, like a Cloudflare platform for people to build applications on. That probably started around eight years ago. Like, when did that really start?
Rita Kozlov:It started seven years ago or I I guess a little bit more than that. But the first product that we announced in the space was Workers. And the original intent of Workers was, Okay, we have this network. We have some people use it for CDN. Other people use it for WAF and security.
Rita Kozlov:We're trying to expose all these services through it. And there were kind of two parts to it. One which is, you know, we looked internally at our own pace of innovation. We're like, wow, we need to be able to go faster. And in parallel, our customers were getting more sophisticated, so they wanted to do, you know, crazier and crazier stuff that page rules just wouldn't cut it for.
Rita Kozlov:Page rules were like, oh, you give me the URL and you can, you know, cache everything on that URL. But people started to want to do things by headers, by country, by cookie, and take all of these complicated actions. So we're like, We need something that will allow people to just write code and deploy it. And we need a platform for ourselves. And so we released Workers.
Rita Kozlov:And if you go back to the announcement blog post for Workers, you'll see a bunch of examples that are kind of around, you know, adding headers, caching things. And the but you quickly realize, oh, wait, I have an origin actually that's running a cloud. Like, if I can write code in this very serverless way, like, what else can I do? If Mhmm. It's crazy.
Rita Kozlov:Innovation is crazy in that way. You come up with something for one thing, and then you realize how many other things are possible. And that was the beginning of the developer platform. And then we're like, Okay, well, now if I want to be able to build something a bit more meaningful, I need storage. So then we introduced KV, and that was pretty limited in what it could do, but it exposed a ton of use cases.
Rita Kozlov:And then we're like, Okay, what's the next thing that people need to be able to do? Oh, they need all these deployment tools. So release Wrangler and Worker Sites, which was the first iteration of pages and then became pages. And then we've continued to add different primitives, yeah, to the point where today, you know, people are building full stack applications that I think were well beyond our imagination when we first started working on this.
Dax:Yeah. The being able to like program your CDN thing, it's it's interesting the way you described it because we basically saw the exact same thing on the AWS side. We had you we're helping people deploy all these things behind the CDN and they kept being like, well, I wanna do this if the user speaks this language or I wanna do this if they're from this country and I wanna like redirect them in this place and it just becomes it's funny how like a whole computing platform came out of that need until it makes total sense because there's just infinite custom logic people wanna apply and yeah, it was the same thing. Like, you know, initially it was just you had patterns and you can like send them different places and like maybe like rewrite the header somewhat. Eventually it did add like a computing thing but it's it's so hilariously limited.
Dax:It, you can run logic when a request comes in, but it can only run for one millisecond. It has one millisecond runtime limit and it's like a You already know this, I I I forgetting the engine. It's not like it's like a very slim down it's not like Node. Js or like WorkerD or anything. It's like a like pure JavaScript, like no other APIs, nothing.
Dax:And even that, like, unlocked a lot, but, yeah, it's just not enough. You need like a full a full thing eventually.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. It's interesting. There are, as you were saying this, was like, wow. Actually, there are so many different approaches to this. Right?
Rita Kozlov:So be before we actually, embark on Workers, one of the things that we're looking at, because that's what so many Fast users had was VCL. And so that's a really, really complex at the end of the day, like, it it stands for Varnish configuration language. So it it's a config. It's not Turing complete. Right?
Rita Kozlov:But it is very, very expressive. And we saw a few challenges there. One which was if you compare the number of people in the world that understand JavaScript versus people that understand VCL, like Yeah. Every time I would talk to a customer that was, you know, looking at moving to us, they would just be a little terrified because it's like, oh, well, Josh knows our VCL configuration, and god forbid if Josh leaves or maybe Josh did leave. And then you're talking to this team that's like, yeah.
Rita Kozlov:I don't know what this does, and I'm terrified to touch it because everything's gonna go haywire. So so that was one approach. And, you know, we we knew from the beginning that we wanted something more programmatic than that because you can't, you know, do, like, particularly complicated if statements or for loops or, like, really express logic through that. And at the time, AWS had Lambdas and they had Lambda at Edge. And both of these are slightly different approaches too, but Lambda at Edge, it's interesting too because they have a couple different definitions of Edge too, so it wasn't running in all of their CloudFront locations and was still container based.
Rita Kozlov:So, again but but more limited. But, again, for us, we're like, okay. Well, we're not gonna deploy containers because that's gonna introduce a cold start. And for our use case, that undoes everything that we're trying to do. And so, yeah, you have that approach, and then, yeah, they they kind of have this new approach now that that's a bit more in the middle.
Rita Kozlov:But to your point, yeah, I I think I when I played around with it last time, was trying to do something even like return a custom response and you really are limited to there's an assumption of you're making a request to origin, you're gonna get a response from the origin and you can modify kind of the metadata on either side of that, but you can't go too far beyond that.
Dax:Yeah. And you can't change this is a huge issue. We can't change the origin. So if we want complex you can change the path, but you can't change the origin. So if you want like to build like a complex routing logic, you just can't do that.
Dax:Yeah. And for the longest time, they kept directing people to LambdaEdge but that runs like after the CDN. It it like, you can't change a lot of things. So a lot of stuff feels like they symbol to a problem and they like do a quick reactionary thing. The thing you brought up with VCL is funny because I think this pattern shows up in a lot of places.
Dax:There's something called VTL, which is a same concept in AWS. I mean, it's I think the velocity template language or something. But AWS supports in a bunch of places where instead of like writing code, you can write these config things. And like you said, it's very I think it's very expressive, but not like really that expressive and almost nobody knows how to use it. And the upside is it's like it's quote unquote just config.
Dax:The downside is like nobody knows how to use it. It like looks different than the rest of your code. It takes you entirely out of the mindset you have when you're working on other stuff. And our side, that's C side. There's like great infrastructure as code tools out there like Terraform.
Dax:But again, the same trade off. It's more config y, so if you have like conditionals or loops, it looks a little weird, and it looks nothing like the rest of your code. So bringing a lot of stuff into JavaScript is really nice because you immediately get all the return complete stuff. Like, everyone needs to do conditionals and loops no matter what type of thing you're building, like you're eventually gonna need that. Until everybody knows it.
Dax:I think the the part that we've seen is tricky is even though we've given you the ability to do like a normal programming language, you should still like kind of chill out with it. Like you shouldn't like You should still kind of treat it like it's config. You shouldn't like Like we see people in their infrastructure stuff with SST. They build like these crazy abstractions and like they build all these packages that are reusable and all this stuff and it gets really far away from something that really should kind of be like config. So yeah, it's just that like you give people more power and it's good, but you know, you gotta make sure that they don't create the same mess that often happens everywhere else.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. I think that's a really interesting question of what layer is the right layer for configuration and what layer is just your application logic. And an interesting thing for us too was if you actually look at that original use case of I wanna modify my CDN, actually, lot of teams that manage Cloudflare that are an infrastructure team that's used to CDN management, they're a bit like, don't give me the Turing complete stuff. I am not I I don't manage a code base in that same way. Give me a way to just manage rules.
Rita Kozlov:And so over time, we've actually still continued to build out this, like, really complex rules engine that is much more of a configuration language because that's what those people want. And, yeah, it turned out that this layer what was much more suitable for okay. Well, actually, I just wanna write my application in this way. And, yeah, if if you're a team that's, you know, an engineering team that's building features, then that's exactly how you wanna write it and you wanna, you know, you have all of the development practices that you need in order to maintain this thing from, you know, source control to testing to, you know, the rest of it.
Dax:Oh, yeah. That that's a huge thing. Like, it's that's kinda what I mean by it takes you out of it. Like, with normal code, there's just such a history with it. Like we've all know how to write it.
Dax:There's all this stuff we collectively learned over time on how to like collaborate on it, how to test it, how to like make it reproducible. There's so much knowledge there and I think a lot of tools try to like remove code, and replace it with something else. And there's some benefits of that but like you're throwing away like such a deep understanding and also tooling. Editors are so tuned to, like, some of these popular languages. And just having all that stuff work out of the box for everyone is is quite nice.
Dax:The other thing I wanted to talk about was since it's been seven years as working on this Yeah. I just wanna highlight like how long something like this takes. I think people conflate this idea of you need to build something, get it out there and get feedback. That's a good But they kind of conflate that with and then it all works out really fast also. But like this stuff takes a long time and it takes like commitment to doing some of this stuff.
Dax:So yeah, how how has it been just, you know, it's been it's been quite a while you've been seeing this and working on it.
Rita Kozlov:You know, if you told me seven years ago that I'd be working on this for seven years, I think I would be a little surprised. But, you know, it's in some senses really rewarding in that, you know, not to get into career advice and things like that, but I think an interesting thing about working on something like this for such a long time is you get to see your decisions play out. Mhmm. And you're like, oh, you know, in retrospect, that was a mistake, or I'm so glad we did that versus, you know, because it really does take a long time for these things to play out. Like, in one or two years, you only see the beginnings, if any, of, you know, the ramifications of the different choices.
Rita Kozlov:And, yeah, I think, you know, that it's always that there's a quote for this or something like that. But anyway, yeah, you know, you get less done, I think, in a year than you set out to, but at the same time, you get more done, I think, in five years than you would have thought you would. So when I look at how much is available platform now in terms of, you know, like primitives, that blows my mind. I don't think I would have predicted that we would at this point have object storage, queues, workflows, logs, k v like, there are so many AI. There are so many products.
Rita Kozlov:But then there are other things that, you know one of the first PRDs that I worked on at some point was gradual rollouts. I think that was one of the first things that Kenton and I talked about. I would talk to a customer and they would be like, you know, it's super cool that I can push out a change and it's live to your network of 200 data centers in less than thirty seconds, but that also terrifies me. Can I please have a lover by which it, you know, you know, happens over time? And there's this weird thing that happens where you're like, yes, that makes a ton of sense.
Rita Kozlov:Let's start building it. And then a ton of stuff gets in the way where you're like, okay, but we really need to do this first. This is a higher priority, and this is another priority. And all of these things kind of come up, and there's unexpected complexity because this another thing about, you know, building something for a long time is, you know, as you grow, you get more teams. There's more interdependencies.
Rita Kozlov:So all of a sudden you realize like, oh, We built, you know, the like that part, but we need this other part and we need to connect these dots. And so, yeah, certain things definitely take longer than you expect them to, and then other things a year ago, you were asking about how these innovation weeks come together. And, you know, probably, like, a month and a half, two months before last year's birthday week, we're like, we have to we have to get AI running on Cloudflare. We we'd announced Constellation previously, which was the original iteration of it, that was where we got a lot of feedback that was, like, this is cool, but I need GPUs. And we went from idea to AI running on GPUs all over our edge in less than two months.
Rita Kozlov:So that's Yeah. Kind of thing where you would expect it to take longer, and, you know, that that's the magic sometimes of having a deadline or forcing function is where you're just like, we just don't have the time for it to take a long time. So it's just gonna happen real fast.
Dax:Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the best parts about working on something that takes a long time. I think, like you said, you get less on a year than you thought, but then in five years, you're just like, what the hell? And I think it's because this stuff compounds and it's like so hard to really imagine the power of that. It's I'm sure you think about, you know, where you guys were like seven years ago and like how difficult it was to do anything.
Dax:And then now you're just like, what were we doing back then? Like, are we going so slow? You can't even like understand how much things have come out and how much easier it's gotten. Like for us, when we went from, this v two to v three, that was after several years of like, kinda like rotating around the space and like understanding it, like not really getting it the primitives exactly right. Then I think we got the primitives right and just in the past six months, we've done so much more than we've basically done the entire history of the company because everything now is set up for us to go do.
Dax:And this stuff just takes a long time. Yeah, I was surprised at the GPU stuff too. I'm like, like I was kinda surprised how fast all the AI stuff came together given that like crazy I mean, all the AI stuff has been really crazy. So But yeah, I mean, that must be the result of, like, all the work before then.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. I I think to your point about having primitives right, that's where I mean, what allows us to sometimes get the this get the stuff running so quickly is we build on workers. A lot of our new announcements are built on workers. So at the very least, getting to a POC can happen really quickly. Workers AI is actually largely runs on something that we talked about during birthday week, runs on containers.
Rita Kozlov:And, you know, this is a big conversation that we've been having internally about, you know, is that something that we expose to customers or not? But the fact that we've had this platform for some time and we originally built it for Cloudflare Run's browser isolation product as a part of our Zero Trust Suite, and you need a container for that. So so we've had that platform for a while. And the fact that, you know, that that was something that we had, and we had a team that was ready to go and build on it made it that much, you know, the the cold start was much faster on that.
Dax:Yeah. I mean, okay. I mean, yeah, that's something we should talk about. I think that was maybe one of the more I mean, you guys saved it for Friday, so, you know, was what the containers platform stuff was one of the bigger surprises, I guess. Because it now puts Cloudflare in a completely different zone.
Dax:I think for a while everyone was kind of able to understand it as this is like a new way of building things and if you like agree with this new way or they want to commit to this new way, then you can go build the Cloudflare stuff. But then introduction of containers means almost any kind of way of building can work. So we did a similar shift to where we started very serverless focused and there is like a large growing number of very big serious companies that build that way. But it is an uphill battle and that you're trying to like change the habits or like, here's like a new way of doing things. Here's You go learn all this stuff and you agree with it and you go do it.
Dax:And we shifted to now, like we've done that for a while so like there wasn't much to do there anymore and now we started to support container stuff more. And it's a totally different experience. It's like, there's no one to like explain anything. There's nothing to explain, there's nothing to teach. It's just this is the way most of the world operates and they just like use it and they get it and it's much much less of a a battle.
Dax:So I think it's gonna be interesting to see when Cloudflare containers comes out. I something similar will happen obviously on a on a much larger scale.
Rita Kozlov:I'm curious to actually hear more from you about what your experience has been. And, you know, to your point of on one hand, it unlocks so many things and I think really changes people's perception of what's possible. On the other hand, yeah, it it was really interesting. You know, I think we were all wondering how that announcement was gonna go and what people's takeaways were. And the the takeaways surprised me a little bit or maybe surprise is the wrong word.
Rita Kozlov:But, yeah, I I'm very curious to see what happens when we actually put this in people's hands. And so we'd love to hear about your experience of making that shift from serverless to containers. And did you see things that surprised you? Are people using it in the way that you expected? Are people doing things that you're like, you know, this is not how I would advise you to do it, but knock yourself out.
Dax:I think the main shit. It's more like a it it just feels different. So what feels different about it is I suddenly feel like I'm talking to a thousand x more people. I think that this is what happens when you break into a bigger market. I realized before I felt like I was talking to a lot of people, there's like a lot of people that build stuff in a serverless way and I didn't really feel like, you know, it was necessarily small.
Dax:The reality is the people that want to deploy containers, it's just so much bigger and hard to even even fathom. And we're seeing people from like other communities that like have nothing to do with JavaScript or like putting stuff together. Like someone's working on a on like a Laravel like a Laravel setup with SST and our container stuff. And that's just so outside the range of anything that we generally think about. So, yeah, the the surprise has just been like, wow, there's like a lot of people out there.
Dax:I feel like now we're finally seeing like everyone. And our whole thing has always been progressive disclosure, which is we don't want you to have to like learn so much upfront or like change it. We we wanna give you an incremental path to using our stuff. And over time, we need to design a like progressive disclosure thing where like you start to learn the things that are useful to know and you start to get more advanced and you start to use other things that you necessarily didn't know coming in. And I kinda see containers in the same way.
Dax:Think based on some of your team and based on that blog post, think probably similar where doing a container option means it's a no brainer for a lot of people, like existing workload, existing way of doing things, they can just go use it. But now they also have the ability to like pull in these other serverless things here and there, which even for me, I'm I'm working on something right now that is gonna be container based, but I need to be able to spin up a lot of headless browsers and that that makes way more sense to do in a serverless way. So like being able to mix the two and giving people the ability to do that, I think, yeah, over time we've just realized like the more options we give people like it just people will start to do funny things with it that you don't that you don't imagine. I think you'll you'll see that too. Think you'll see people mixing containers and durable objects and all that stuff together in really unexpected ways.
Rita Kozlov:I mean, people mixing all that stuff together I think is the really interesting part and
Dax:Yeah.
Rita Kozlov:That's the that's what we hope people will take away from this is that, yeah, you now have another tool in your arsenal that allows you to complete the picture or, you know, yeah, you you don't have to force everything into the same model. But at the same time, you know, the thing that I thought was kind of interesting is I I really think people see the word containers and stop reading, which is not too surprising, I suppose, some ways. There are literally some things, like I saw questions when we announced this that are like, does this run on Firecracker? And it it well, there's literally a subsection that's
Dax:like, yeah. No. It's a it's a very long detailed article. Yeah.
Rita Kozlov:Having been doing this for seven years, one thing that you realize is distributed computing is really hard. I mean, computing actually, period, is really hard, right? That's the challenge that most people have with applications. And if containers were perfect, then what would we even be doing in the first place? Because, you know, people have Kubernetes.
Rita Kozlov:Like, why wouldn't they just happily be running that? And and I think the reality is there are a lot of challenges that come with that, both from
Dax:Mhmm.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. If you have a distributed audience standpoint, which most people do, from a scaling standpoint and how many resources it takes. And, you know, I I think that that's kind of been the long term argument about serverless versus not is, yes, you can run your $5 VPS, but most things scale beyond that. And then do you want to spend your team's time on that, or do you want to offload that to someone else? And a lot of what I think historically has been done with serverless and where we saw the opportunity with workers was that if you try to build serverless on top of containers, you end up with something that's not really all that serverless because it's an abstraction and it gets leaky really quickly.
Rita Kozlov:You're still dealing with regions. You're still dealing with concurrency. You're still paying for idle time and WorkersFlipped all of that on its head. And so if you're looking for something really serverless, Workers is just it's gonna be better. And Yeah.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. We've had so many conversations with people over the years where they would be like, why doesn't Cloudflare just let me run a container? And you would start asking them questions of, you know, okay, well, what would you do if if we let you do that? And they'd be like, okay. Well, I have a Go application, and I just wanna run it on Cloudflare's edge.
Rita Kozlov:It's like, okay, do you want to run it in all 200 data centers? And sometimes they would be like, yeah. And you're like, okay, do you want to pay for it to be running 200 And they're like, no. Yeah. You know?
Rita Kozlov:Or like the other trade off that people didn't realize is like, okay. Well, now a request can hit any one of these 250 data centers, and it's gonna it's gonna cold start. So you got closer to the user, but your net performance is negative, not positive. Right? Is that what you want?
Rita Kozlov:And people are like, oh, haven't thought about that. That no. That that's not what I want. And so that's where I I really think the devil's gonna be in the details and in the use cases. And, yeah, I I think a lot of the interesting possibilities are gonna be where we can abstract away a lot of that by combining it with things like durable objects where you Mhmm.
Rita Kozlov:In most cases, I guarantee you actually don't need a container running in 250 data centers. But we have the ability to be really smart about where we place your container so that it is always warm, so that it is closer to users. You can do a lot of things that, you know, where serverless was traditionally kind of associated with stateless. All of a sudden, you can maintain states and do things like, you know, build games and all that kind of stuff. So and, you know, our our again, if I think about some of our use cases for it, something like CICD, I think, is a great example where it's something that's slightly longer running.
Rita Kozlov:It's not on the critical path of it's not something that you expect to be instantaneous. Right? So we can kind of schedule it wherever. We can actually, in this instance, make it really cheap because, you know, during certain times of day, we have data centers that don't receive as much traffic. We can schedule it over there and pass the cost savings onto you.
Rita Kozlov:So I I think in some ways, it's a lot more actually interesting and opens up more stuff than people think.
Dax:Yeah. It's funny. When I told Frank about the Cloudflare container stuff, the first thing he asked was, oh, can we run CICD there? Because we we have a CICD product and it's like it's weird. Like CI is such a commodity, but it's annoyingly difficult in a lot of ways because there's just like this funny traffic patterns with it too, like sometimes because of the Pendabot or whatever, like the GitHub thing.
Dax:It has a schedule and it'll like end up triggering a bunch of our customers CI stuff. So we'll just get like a burst of a bunch of jobs randomly and being able to like one, CI needs to run anything because people can do literally anything in their CI. Like you have no idea what they're gonna put in there. So you can only use compute that's like very flexible. But like making sure you have capacity to handle like peak versus, you know, what your average load is, especially when it's not predictable.
Dax:Yeah, it sucks. We actually ended up deciding for like the next version, the more newer version of our product. We run CI inside the end users accounts, at least for AWS because just trying to manage like a centralized CI service, it's just so much so much work. But yeah, something like this would be super helpful because there's not a lot of options for on demand containers that you can just can kind of like run anything. Yeah.
Dax:There there's yeah. So I think there's gonna be a lot of use cases that it opens up. And again, I agree with you that doing all these cool like next gen stuff does require rethinking how you build things and adopting a new architecture and a lot of that is serverless related. I think a lot of discussion never even gets that far. It gets stuck on like really basic things like pricing or like, do you need scale?
Dax:It's kind of the tired things we see all the time, but that's not really the reason I even shifted there. It's funny, I think the thing you said about Kubernetes remind me of this. So for a long time, anytime I built something, I would just get generic compute and I would throw Kubernetes on it and then schedule everything to there. That's how I built everything. And what was nice about it was I never have to learn anything new.
Dax:Like I knew that you can throw anywhere whether it's AWS, GCP, whatever. Then I joined this team and for the first time in my career, because I'd always worked either on my own companies or early stage, we had a dedicated DevOps person. So it wasn't my job to figure that out. Cool. Totally fine with that.
Dax:And I was looking at what he was doing and he was using AWS ECS Fargate, which is like a managed container offering. So you're not doing any of the work, just you just have a container and you pay for it. And I asked him like, this is like three times as expensive. Why are we like, why are we doing this versus the thing that I have always done? And he said something to me that like totally changed the way that I looked at everything and I felt so stupid for not thinking about it this way.
Dax:He was like, so at the time we were actually building out a payment processing system. So we had to go through all of the compliance stuff for it. He was like, yeah, you're talking and he was like, you're basically describing like a $15 a month per container versus like a $45 a month container situation. In the $45 a month container situation, we get to go tell all the compliance people that we don't have access to the servers. And that is literally worth like tens of thousands of dollars to like not have to be like, here's how we're hardening like that whole thing.
Dax:Right? So that, like you said, like, comparing the file to our VPS thing, it's not really about the little cost of the compute, it's about the security questionnaires you get when you go, what, talk to like a a big enterprise company. It's about, like, the compliance stuff. Being able to say like, I don't have access to any of that stuff, like eliminates so many of the questions, so much of the burden. And that would it felt silly for me to like bring up like a $30 difference, you know, in the face of that.
Dax:And yeah, ever since then that's when I started to open my mind to okay, like, if I do more serverless stuff, all of these problems I've been dealing with my whole career suddenly suddenly gone. And there's a lot of things like that to go away that I don't think could talk about a lot.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. You touched on two things that I think are really interesting, maybe three. But the first is, you know, that setting up Kubernetes and scheduling, everything was kind of how you'd always done stuff. And I think that in that way, you know, people there's people always ask like, what's the best DX? And I think the best DX is the thing that you're used to.
Rita Kozlov:Mhmm. That's the thing that's always gonna it's not an objective thing. Right? It's actually it's gonna be the thing that feels the fastest to you. And that's something that we think about a lot is, like, how do we we have this actually pretty different programming paradigm, and so how do we expose it in a way that does feel familiar so that you don't feel like you're relearning everything?
Rita Kozlov:Because when you do have to do that, it does feel like this really big hurdle of, like, okay. I know that my way of doing this is inefficient and requires, like, five four loops, and that doesn't make sense, but at least I'll get it done and I can call it a day. So, yeah, you know, that's why we've been working on the node compat stuff, and I think that containers is gonna go a really long way there of just giving people something to hold on to that feels familiar and kind of get started from that. But, yeah, I I think that the second thing that's really interesting here is to your point, it did all of that compliance stuff didn't matter to you when you were building as an individual, and at the same time, you know, that difference between, like, $15 and $45 felt really significant to you. And I feel like that's where things sometimes get lost in the Twitter conversation too of, you know, I I think it's great that there's such a big community of people, you know, I think we're both that way of we just like to build stuff in our spare time, and it's a great way to learn new technologies.
Rita Kozlov:But what you need for, you know, your blog or your side project or whatever is so different from the requirements of a company and that's where yeah. Like, you know, knock yourself out, setting up Docker on a $5 VPS. Like, it just doesn't matter. But, when you're running in production and you're doing this as a part of a multimillion, multibillion dollar business where literally every second of latency correlates with revenue, where, yeah, you have compliance requirements to meet, where, you know, people's time really adds up if if you think about, you know, the the cost of an engineer. A $100,000 even starts to look pretty small compared to, you know, all of the alternatives.
Dax:Yeah. And the other thing is like you're and you talked about this a little bit earlier. When your team size grows, it's just always a negative thing. Like it's there's benefits to it, but there's like always a permanent negative thing when there's just more people involved. So even if it's sometimes for me, I'm like, even if it's cheaper to hire people to do it ourselves, like, the fact that we can keep our team smaller, like that's worth like some kind of crazy intangible amount.
Dax:Like, yeah, I saw this at my last company where we did something where it made us a lot more money. We like in house something that made this, again, this payment thing. It made us like a crazy amount of money and like on paper it like made total sense and nobody would really think like, of course, like everyone would just, of course, we should do that, like we're we're making all this money. But it it like grew the organization, like we needed to bring in people on the engineering side, which meant we needed more people on the recruiting side, which meant we needed more people on the HR side and then then we needed like more data engineers to handle this stuff. And again, it was all extremely profitable to do, but it kind of permanently changed the culture of the company and I always wonder it's not like we would have been sitting there doing nothing, we would have been working on something else instead.
Dax:I kind of wonder if we could have worked on something that was a lot more differentiated. But yeah, it's hard to see past the direct. This is technically more expensive than if we in house it. There's a lot of these like intangible things that come up.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. I think that's gonna become even more interesting in some ways in the AI age where the productivity of a single person can go so much further in some ways. Right? And so, yeah, I I do wonder if especially yeah. Like, as a small startup, as a team of three, you can go so far, so fast just bootstrapping things and building in a serverless way that yeah.
Rita Kozlov:I wonder if there's gonna be like even more and more scrutiny over, you know, build versus buy and what's the, you know, liability of growing a team.
Dax:Yeah. And this stuff is so complicated because there are ways to like, if if you have like a very traditional application and then you move it to the cloud, you're gonna look at what you're getting and you're gonna be like, this sucks. This is a scam. It kinda is. Like, you're just paying for regular servers but like 10 x more.
Dax:And your applications are very traditional applications that can literally run anywhere. So why would you pick to run-in the cloud? So I totally get that perspective. I also get the perspective that not all serverless is the same, you know. Like, there's a lot of stuff that has been serverless and is like really out in the world as like this is a serverless way to do it.
Dax:That doesn't have a lot of benefits of being serverless in in terms of like the cost being basically super cheap or the capabilities being really powerful. And so people have an impression of what serverless is that isn't necessarily like the accurate representation of it. So, I still really even though with our shift to like working on stuff outside of serverless and and I think same for you for all of you, I still like believe in that model and there's just so many problems that now that I'm doing it, I'm doing something that's in a container way again, I'm like, I have to solve this problem now. Like, okay, this thing can get like a burst of requests and then that's just gonna overwhelm the whole system and nothing's gonna work. And like, I I'm remembering that was like 80% of my work.
Dax:People always talk about scale where they're like, oh, yeah. You gotta like keep scaling things up and up and up. A lot of times my work was like, how do I slow shit down so it doesn't like overwhelm the system? And shifting the serverless like made that like kind of go away and now I'm like back dealing with it again. So yeah, it's what you said.
Dax:Like people are used to the reality is is you can get good at anything. Like whatever technology you're using, there's stuff that is probably really good at, there's stuff that is bad at. You spend enough time with it, you're gonna get good at mitigating bad parts and taking advantage of the good parts. So that's that's true of everything. So I get why like if you're used to something, it doesn't feel that bad because you've gotten good at using it.
Dax:But you can get good at using a new thing too.
Rita Kozlov:I think also to your point about, you know, if you're managing a bunch of servers and then you look at something like the cloud and you're like, oh, that's so much more expensive and I'm still managing servers. If you've been doing that and you have a team that has that in house expertise, then it makes sense to keep doing that in some way. Right? But if I think back to your comment about, you know, the the product is growing. We need to hire more people in order to keep up with, you know, customer demand and all of that.
Rita Kozlov:The availability of talent, I think, is something that everyone in this industry struggles with. And so then I think the question also becomes, you know, I I think your odds of being able to hire someone that's really capable and, like, I I I think that there's this aspect of sorry. I'm struggling to think of the word, but barrier to entry effectively. Right? You can get a really smart engineer that if you give them the tools that they need vis a vis serverless can, like, get running just slinging code versus I think finding people that if we take the example of literally managing physical servers, there are just far, far fewer people in the world that are capable to do that.
Rita Kozlov:So, again, like, calibrating that Who is your next hire going to be? And, you know, do you want to spend a bunch of money trying to get talent that's very uniquely specialized and knows how to do all this stuff? Or, you know, like, today, you can get a really great college grad, especially, you know, with the help of AI that is is gonna be able to, you know, get running so so much faster if, you know, the like, all they have to do is figure out how to run JavaScript.
Dax:Yeah. It's and I think the other interesting thing I mean, you have this perspective. I have this perspective too. We just see a lot of companies building in all sorts of ways. So in a of discussions, people describe, like, these horrible scenarios of, like, it it just makes it seem like this stuff can never work out.
Dax:But like every day we see, you know, thousands of companies that are on their own, making their own like rational decisions for whatever makes sense for them, choosing to build in a certain way and it just works and it works particularly well. Again, building it in all sorts of forms. So you just kind of get less I guess for me it's just like the way peep this stuff is described, it feels so exaggerated because like, there are just people doing this every single day and they like never they're never like introspecting like, this right? Like, is this great? Like, they're just not thinking about that stuff.
Dax:They're like, it just never comes up. Yeah. It's hard to like get a sense for that when you just are seeing the discussions around these things. How's New York? I know it's getting fall time, which was my wife's favorite time of year, but I think it's a lot of people's favorite time of year.
Rita Kozlov:It's definitely my favorite. Every day, I'm just savoring. There are, I think, like, sixteen weeks in the year, maybe a little less than that, where New York is just perfect and there's spread across fall and spring and every day of those, I don't wanna leave.
Dax:Yeah. It's funny because I'm such a little, like I'm like a little baby with this stuff where I'm like, the moment it gets a little cold, all I can think about is that means winter is coming. So I could just never enjoy fall because to me it was like a
Rita Kozlov:Impending doom.
Dax:It was like a sign impending, exactly. That's all I could think about. I'm like, it's coming. It's coming again. It's gonna be horrible.
Dax:But most people, I think, know how to enjoy it. People love Fall in New York.
Rita Kozlov:I I think the way that you feel about winter is how I feel about summer, where winter, I'm like, I can handle, I can be cozy versus I don't deal with the heat very well. So that's how I feel in the spring where I'm like, oh god, the the dumpsters are rising. It's coming.
Dax:Yeah. My favorite part of New York was I had this like crystal clear image in my head because I feel like it literally happens this way every single year. It'll be the winter and all of a sudden be one day you leave it's like nice. You leave work and it feels like some AI generated scenes. It's like everyone's walking around happy eating ice cream and there's people skateboarding and everyone's like it's like 4PM and everyone's like kind of already out of work.
Dax:And it's like the most idyllic scene you could possibly imagine. It just happens every single year. And I, like, clearly can remember that.
Rita Kozlov:I know exactly what you're talking about. And, yeah, it's like it's always somehow a Friday that's the first magical day.
Dax:Okay.
Rita Kozlov:And, yeah, everyone is just having the best time of their lives. It's so cute.
Dax:Yeah. I know. It's a yeah. I think that's a nice thing about having seasons. There's like these rhythms to it.
Dax:Now that I've been Miami for two years, I guess, maybe two and a half years or so, it's funny because it's like, it feels very different. It just feels like one continuous sense of existence. Like there are seasons where like I don't really perceive them that much and it feels totally different. It almost feels like time is frozen. And there's things I like about it, but I can see how it might drive people kinda crazy.
Rita Kozlov:No. I know exactly what you mean. I used to live in San Francisco and Mhmm. It's funny. I was just there last week for for birthday week.
Rita Kozlov:And every time I visit now, it is actually it's New York fall weather, but year round, which for me is actually I'm like, that's my perfect climate. I know some people love Miami or San Diego where it's sunny. Yeah. For me, I'm like, this is ideal. And sometimes I'm like, I can't believe I left this weather behind.
Rita Kozlov:But there is a nice thing about the rhythm where you're always looking forward to something. And yeah, there's these changes and you get different produce and I Yeah.
Dax:Oh, yeah. The produce stuff is I mean, yeah, I think we still have, like, seasonal eating here too. But
Rita Kozlov:Is it weird to eat, I I don't know, pumpkin soup when it's, like, 85, 90 degrees out?
Dax:Okay. This is what I was gonna bring up. This is the this is the weirdest thing for me, because I grew up in the Northeast from the ages of five to 30 basically within the Northeast. And there's this permanent thing in my head of it's Christmas time, it's snowy, people put up Christmas trees, people put up reeds, and it feels a certain way. In Miami, guess what?
Dax:They do all the same stuff. They put up reeds, but it's like 90 degrees and it just looks like I think aesthetically it just looks it just feels wrong. I think innately you look at like all those green like Christmas y plants and stuff and it just does not make sense. And I wish people here would stop like, my wife says the Northeast has like a monopoly on like holidays basically, like the whole country like orients towards like the Northeast version of of the holiday. But I'm like, this makes no sense.
Dax:Like this this looks off. Like even scenes at Christmas like like the like the red, you know, banners and all that, it just feels totally wrong and I feel like we should just come up with our own thing that's totally different that Yeah. It just it just feels off.
Rita Kozlov:I mean, you think of, you think of October and Halloween and you think of Christmas, you imagine Meg Ryan, you know, in New York in appropriate weather. If you transplant McBrien into Miami, it makes no sense.
Dax:I know. It's horrible. And then, like, the in fall, people were like, wear flannel. And I'm like, you are melting in that. Like, that is just not the right thing.
Dax:But, yeah, it just somehow the Northeast has that influence over.
Rita Kozlov:I I think over more than just the rest of The US. So my partner is from Australia and so I I never really thought about it, but their Christmas is in the summer. And so, yeah, you know, like Christmas barbecue.
Dax:Yeah. Exactly. I was gonna bring him the same thing. I met someone from, someone from South Africa who worked with me, and he was like, oh, yeah. Christmas, like watermelon and barbecue.
Dax:And I'm like, what are you talking about? That just sounds insane. But, yeah, it's all flip.
Rita Kozlov:Santa and watermelon and barbecue, get out of here.
Dax:Just like I I to be honest, I still like refuse like, my brain like understands it's real, like the same way I understand that dinosaurs are real, but like, I'm just like, no, it can't really, like, it just I don't it doesn't really make sense in my head. Feel like I need to go there and be there to understand it. And that means like our summer I guess, our summer holidays are I guess, like specific to The US, like fourth of July. But then their summer holidays are like cold. It's really weird.
Dax:I feel like it's not talked about that much. Like half of the world is on the opposite schedule and we never talk about it.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. We're very Northern Hemisphere centric.
Dax:Yeah. We're like, it's getting so cold and then meanwhile, the other side of the world is like, oh yeah, we're looking forward to summer.
Rita Kozlov:Well
Dax:It's wild.
Rita Kozlov:You're gonna be out here in a couple weeks, right?
Dax:Next month. So November 18.
Rita Kozlov:That's right.
Dax:Yeah. I I haven't been cold in a very long time. Like physically, I haven't felt the feeling of cold.
Rita Kozlov:Do you even own a jacket?
Dax:So my my experience in New York was so I lived there for ten years. The first five or six years, I was just like, I'm just gonna layer up. I'm just gonna layer and that's how I'm gonna deal with the cold. I'm gonna keep layering. And it just never layered well and I was basically like freezing the whole time.
Dax:And then finally, was like, know what, I'm just gonna give in. I'm buying one of these crazy expensive like, meant for traversing I don't know, like the North Pole, South Pole, whatever jackets.
Rita Kozlov:Like Antarctica or something.
Dax:Yeah, exactly. So I I went to that company Arctyrix, I don't even know how you pronounce it. And what's cool about their stuff that it's pretty lightweight, I bought it and I was like, oh, this is why I was so miserable the whole time. I can literally wear a t shirt and put that thing on and I'm and I'm good, like I'm good for the whole winter. It's such a good jacket.
Dax:So I have that somewhere. I don't think November is cold enough to justify that, but I'm gonna I'm probably gonna wear it just because I don't wanna feel cold at all.
Rita Kozlov:You you might as well. I don't know. It it does get pretty chilly especially in the mornings. The what you just made me think of with the layering is the funny thing about San Francisco and the thing that I do cherish about New York summers is that it's warm in the evenings versus in San Francisco, you can have the most beautiful sunny day and then the second the sunsets. If you didn't think ahead and bring layers, you just go to instant freezing.
Dax:Oh, yeah. I hate that. I'm I'm so bad with that stuff. It happened to me in New York too in certain times of the year when it was like that. Yeah.
Dax:It's it's just like I just didn't know basically, most of the time I lived there, maybe like 7% of time I lived there, I just didn't know how to dress properly for the weather. So I got I got that jacket and I also got one of those those crazy hats that made with the raccoon fur. Look like that. And they're they're called heaters.
Rita Kozlov:I love that. You you have to bring that out here for sure.
Dax:Gonna bring everything. That's like that was like my setup and once I had that I was like, I am never gonna be cold again. It's a solved problem, like, you have the technology to to be warm, you've gotta commit to it. Also, it's like so worth it too that the jacket was like a thousand dollars which seems like a lot. But I use it for five years.
Dax:It still looks brand new and it basically, you know, like saves my ass for half the year. So
Rita Kozlov:I I was thinking there must be some comparison there to be made with like servers and serverless and like amortizing it over the cost but Yeah.
Dax:Yeah. A lot of life is just a bite in the bullet and is doing it. My yeah. Like Liz refused to make this shift because the reality is is like, the thing I hated about the winner is it's just so bulky. Like, everyone's just so bulky, like, everyone's like wearing all this stuff and like, go inside and everyone's like taking off layers and like piling it in on something.
Rita Kozlov:Just instant over stimulation.
Dax:Yeah, exactly. And so for her she's like, none of those jackets are like cute, you know. So for her she was just like very much resisting, that and she was just always cold. So that's a challenge.
Rita Kozlov:I think that's why fall is the supreme season. So today the weather is like you can wear a sweater outside but you don't need a jacket which I feel like there's maybe actually like two weeks in the year that are like that. Everyone gets to see your outfit. You look cute because it's not hidden under, you know, your tundra So, yeah, I get it. Yeah.
Dax:And then in the winter, I would just I would literally I've gotten like ten days without leaving my apartment and stuff. I would just hide inside so it's not the I think this was not the environment for me. But you know, I do miss it. Think I'm excited to be back there in November. I was back Oh, yeah, when I met you for the first time.
Dax:That was my first time back and you might have experiences like this too. I was walking around and I just like had like these flood of memories come back. Like I walked down streets and I'd like remember all these like random things from years ago. It was a really crazy experience. That was my first time going somewhere where I used to live.
Dax:And it sounds like you've lived in a bunch of places so you might mean, when you were when you were at San Francisco, you probably had a similar experience. That was my first time and it was like, felt really crazy. Like, I never had something like that.
Rita Kozlov:It's such a weird feeling. I do experience it every time I'm back in SF, especially because the last couple years of me being in San Francisco were during the pandemic. And so there are the years that I spent going to the office, and so and then there was all this time that I didn't. And now every time I'm in San Francisco and I go to the San Francisco office, especially in SoMa in that area, it feels like I have so many memories, but also I was such a different person then. And Mhmm.
Rita Kozlov:Yeah, you just kind of become that person again in a way or yeah.
Dax:Yep. Exactly.
Rita Kozlov:It's a very out of body feeling.
Dax:Yeah. It was also kind of overwhelming. I was like, after two days, I was just like, I I kinda wanna leave. Like, this is this is too much. Because that's the only place I'd ever lived, you know.
Dax:So it was like a lot of very intense. But I am excited to be back in November. I think you'll you're probably you're coming to our our event we're doing. Right?
Rita Kozlov:Yeah. Are you are you gonna drop a sneak peek of what what you guys have planned or are you gonna are you gonna manage to keep a secret?
Dax:I think what we're gonna do is we're not gonna say anything, but we're gonna be building stuff for it live two days before. So whoever joined is what you were saying before, like, you're paying attention, you're gonna know what we're doing. But I don't wanna officially announce it because during the event, I wanna start off with a series of misdirections where it seems like I'm just gonna tell you one of them because I'm sure a bunch of people aren't listening to this. I wanna start off the event and I wanna thank everyone for coming and I wanna be like, okay, today we're here to discuss the caching differences between Next. Js 14 and Next.
Dax:Js 15. I'm gonna pull up a slide deck that has like 200 slides and then start like going into it.
Rita Kozlov:It is such a
Dax:wanna like, you know, just throw people off. But, yeah. I'm I'm looking forward to it.
Rita Kozlov:Me too. It's gonna be awesome.
Dax:Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you for joining today. It was fun. Yeah.
Dax:We're all super excited about everything. Y'all working out. I haven't dug into any of it yet, but I'm gonna do that tomorrow, today or tomorrow, most likely. Have a whole list of things to to go through, I'll probably do it on stream again.
Rita Kozlov:Nice. Yeah. So much of our team tuned into your last stream and we're all like, oh, boy. Rough edges. Let's go fix them.
Rita Kozlov:So,
Dax:yeah, if
Rita Kozlov:wanna cover more for us, actually, we're we're doing an internal thing called Fixtoberfest. So this month, we are very focused on our own observability and sanding down all of those rough edges and finding paper cuts and fixing them. So this is perfect time to erase all those things. Cool.
Dax:Alright. Well Cool. Thanks for joining.
Rita Kozlov:Thanks for having me.
Dax:Yep.
